3992 replies to this topic

[KingTiger]

is it just me or do the front wing main plates look different in the second Obi picture? 

[Paa]

Could someone explain me what is the benefit of getting the nose 8cm shorter?

As someone who knows little to nothing about aerodynamics it doesn't seem like a big difference at all.

 

Still, it seems like Mercedes puts lot of effort in order to achieve this, I just would like to know if that is really that big deal?

I mean I know it supposed to help the airflow under the car. I just not see exactly how it would help or how big the effect would be.

[Skinnyguy]

Wrong.

Great contribution. Really elaborated. But despite your excellent analisys, tyres are too hard. Primes are not lasting any longer than options, because they're sliding much more, because they're not working properly.


Which means they should use options as primes and bring softer rubber as options. They'd have two compounds that are both working, one more durable and one grippier. Which is the point of having different compoundd, allow different approachs to race day.

Instead we have a grippy and durable tyre and a less grippy and equally durable tyre.

[MaxisOne]

Could someone explain me what is the benefit of getting the nose 8cm shorter?

As someone who knows little to nothing about aerodynamics it doesn't seem like a big difference at all.

 

Still, it seems like Mercedes puts lot of effort in order to achieve this, I just would like to know if that is really that big deal?

I mean I know it supposed to help the airflow under the car. I just not see exactly how it would help or how big the effect would be.

 

Im no expert either but im thinking less weight, turn in moment could  also be quicker due to it being shorter and possibly more useful air under the car for downforce.

[Timstr11]

Could someone explain me what is the benefit of getting the nose 8cm shorter?

As someone who knows little to nothing about aerodynamics it doesn't seem like a big difference at all.

 

Still, it seems like Mercedes puts lot of effort in order to achieve this, I just would like to know if that is really that big deal?

I mean I know it supposed to help the airflow under the car. I just not see exactly how it would help or how big the effect would be.

As Gary Anderson explained (see post by Markn93), it's about less blockage.

The nose tip now overlaps the central main plane (partly).

Air passing under the nose  tip is 'blocked' by not only the underside of the nose tip, but also the top of the main plane, thus inducing more blockage.

To get a less restricted passage, they need to move the tip further backwards so that the air passing under the nose tip is not also blocked by the main plane. 

 

Edited by Timstr11, 11 April 2014 - 05:49.

[KingTiger]

Great contribution. Really elaborated. But despite your excellent analisys, tyres are too hard. Primes are not lasting any longer than options, because they're sliding much more, because they're not working properly.


Which means they should use options as primes and bring softer rubber as options. They'd have two compounds that are both working, one more durable and one grippier. Which is the point of having different compoundd, allow different approachs to race day.

Instead we have a grippy and durable tyre and a less grippy and equally durable tyre.

 

I don't really need to elaborate on such a silly idea.

 

But I guess I will, so maybe you and that other guy will maybe stop spreading these completely inaccurate ideas. The Pirelli prime have been rubbish for pretty much their entire F1 existance. Especially in 2011, when the tires were ridiculously soft, the hard was still useless. 

[Alexandros]

I don't really need to elaborate on such a silly idea.

 

But I guess I will, so maybe you and that other guy will maybe stop spreading these completely inaccurate ideas. The Pirelli prime have been rubbish for pretty much their entire F1 existance. Especially in 2011, when the tires were ridiculously soft, the hard was still useless. 

 

Perez spreading silly ideas & disinformation: "There's less downforce in the tyres, and although Pirelli is going really aggressive with the new harder tyre compounds degradation is not really improving. It's because you are sliding a lot so you are degrading like it was a softer compound."

[Timstr11]

Perez spreading silly ideas & disinformation: "There's less downforce in the tyres, and although Pirelli is going really aggressive with the new harder tyre compounds degradation is not really improving. It's because you are sliding a lot so you are degrading like it was a softer compound."

I don't see your point in highlighting the effect of the new rules on the tyres. We ALL know that.

 

I advise you have a think about the cause ==> "There's less downforce in the tyres,..."

 

(Better to continue that in the It's the Tires thread though).

[Markn93]

Failed for a fifth time ---> http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=3

[slmk]

At this point, they should just stop bothering and focus on other areas of the car. I don't want this nose to become a dead-end like F-Duct/DDRS/W-Duct/mushroom suspension, etc.

[Markn93]

At this point, they should just stop bothering and focus on other areas of the car. I don't want this nose to become a dead-end like F-Duct/DDRS/W-Duct/mushroom suspension, etc.

It's nothing like those things, this is increased airflow and  therefore potentially more df. It's win-win, the ones you mention all had drawbacks this would be an incredible design/engineering feat should they accomplish this within the constraints of the regs. This is just a normal part that gets developed, but it seems to have gotten much more publicity than most though.

[Timstr11]

At this point, they should just stop bothering and focus on other areas of the car. I don't want this nose to become a dead-end like F-Duct/DDRS/W-Duct/mushroom suspension, etc.

Why? Engineers like solving difficult problems and it often takes lots of research and iterations before something is solved. Will be quite a feat if they pull it off in the end. You also learn from it. The front is an important development area of the car so they should continue. 

Edited by Timstr11, 11 April 2014 - 14:03.

[Jamiednm]

At this point, they should just stop bothering and focus on other areas of the car. I don't want this nose to become a dead-end like F-Duct/DDRS/W-Duct/mushroom suspension, etc.

They'll have more irons in the fire than just this nose design, so I wouldn't worry. They will have a road map of how they want to develop the car through the season. If they can get this through then it would be an excellent piece of work and shows that Mercedes are so good that they don't need a ridiculous wang on the end of their nose even though the leading edge is as far back as is permitted by the regulations.

[LightningMcQueen]

This front wing must be something special

[RubalSher]

Isnt Merc aware or cannot Merc do a home crash test first to verify if it will pass? What is the point in taking it to the FIA if they know at home it is failing. Not sure I follow why Merc got it wrong a 5th time?

[OO7]

is it just me or do the front wing main plates look different in the second Obi picture? 

I think its just the angle of the shot KingTiger.

[Timstr11]

Isnt Merc aware or cannot Merc do a home crash test first to verify if it will pass? What is the point in taking it to the FIA if they know at home it is failing. Not sure I follow why Merc got it wrong a 5th time?

Teams don't have crash test facilities.

The design is done with the aid of FEA and failure analysis software.

[Szoelloe]

Isnt Merc aware or cannot Merc do a home crash test first to verify if it will pass? What is the point in taking it to the FIA if they know at home it is failing. Not sure I follow why Merc got it wrong a 5th time?

 

How is that relevant? If they have, it obviously is not enough. If they don't have, it obviously lads to retrying until success. AFAIK they would need a facility to do that, and it is not worth it. Ususally calculations are enough to determine a crash test result.

[TF110]

Failed for a fifth time ---> http://www.auto-moto...fotoshow_item=3

Bad link.

[Alexandros]

I don't see your point in highlighting the effect of the new rules on the tyres. We ALL know that.

 

I advise you have a think about the cause ==> "There's less downforce in the tyres,..."

 

(Better to continue that in the It's the Tires thread though).

 

You do understand that downforce only plays a role when the speed is high and aero is actually working. At all other cases where the car is losing downforce in a braking zone, when exiting a braking zone or at tight hairpins, there's no downforce worthy of mention, so it's all about mechanical grip and tires at that point. By looking at the low speed sections and isolating the downforce factor (as there is no meaningful df there), you can understand what is happening.

 

The lack of meaningful aero in low speeds has been a given since forever. But there was grip because the tires were grippier so you didn't see much sliding, locking etc. Now there is no grip and all these issues come up, including sliding-induced wear.

 

You can see, especially in the lockups when cars are coming from a straight, these occur as the car slows down and the car loses its downforce. At that point the driver should lift the pedal to compensate (he can brake harder while having the downforce but if he keeps the pedal down it'll lock as the car loses df) - and they did that in prior seasons but now it comes to ridiculous levels of lifting to avoid the lock (due to the tire hardness and lack of gripping to the track).

[Timstr11]

You do understand that downforce only plays a role when the speed is high and aero is actually working. At all other cases where the car is losing downforce in a braking zone, when exiting a braking zone or at tight hairpins, there's no downforce worthy of mention, so it's all about mechanical grip and tires at that point.

Slow corners, Braking (stability), Traction are all aero dependent as well so Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

Get some education in F1 aerodynamics.

 

And err also...Wrong thread. Not going to respond to you further here.

[Alexandros]

From the link you quote: "A nice and efficient aerodynamics package is more favourable in faster corners as mechanical factors to do with the chassis can help improve slower speed cornering, as well as the fact that the faster you go, the bigger effect a downforce package will have on the car’s characteristics and behaviour."

[shonguiz]

That only says that aero's influence is bigger in high speed, not that it's inexistant or unworthy of mention at low speed.

[Bartonz20let]

Merc seem to be very keen to get this new nose to work, wonder what sort of gains they expect or what other development opportunities it will create.

Is there a technical analysis of it floating about?

[Alexandros]

That only says that aero's influence is bigger in high speed, not that it's inexistant or unworthy of mention at low speed.

 

Actually aero goes up at a square relation to velocity, so, yes, it's quite unworthy of mention at low speeds.

[andrewf1]

Merc seem to be very keen to get this new nose to work, wonder what sort of gains they expect or what other development opportunities it will create.

Is there a technical analysis of it floating about?

 

Check post #3965.

 

I hope this new nose isn't stalling them in their development work on the aero side. Seeing that they're extremely determined to make this new nose happen, I think it's a crucial element in the development road map they've planned for the season. The front as well as the rear of the car will be affected. Thankfully, they've got enough of an advantage in hand compared to the rest of the field that they can still take their time.

Edited by andrewf1, 12 April 2014 - 08:32.

[TomNokoe]

They have 1.5 seconds on the field, call it complacent but I think they can afford to chase a new nose​ 

[SanDiegoGo]

The fact that all renders and advertising show the Merc with the "new" nose, it seems the "new" nose was always the A spec nose, but they couldn't get it quite right and launched with a B spec nose that we see now. Therefore the car is designed with the A spec nose in mind and the B spec nose is the comprimise.

Edited by SanDiegoGo, 12 April 2014 - 09:09.

[Zoetrope]

The fact that all renders and advertising show the Merc with the "new" nose, it seems the "new" nose was always the A spec nose, but they couldn't get it quite right and launched with a B spec nose that we see now. Therefore the car is designed with the A spec nose in mind and the B spec nose is the comprimise.

And magically they will find 0.2s when they finally pass the crash test. 

[maxx7]

Mercedes not passed the crash test new nose. not clear at all whether they have a new nose.

[Retrofly]

Source? That's a shame

[maxx7]

Source? That's a shame

Amus

[maverick69]

I was told by a composite guy that the "new" nose is halfway between the current one and the Lotus solution. Whether that's the one being tested I don't know.

[Markn93]

I was told by a composite guy that the "new" nose is halfway between the current one and the Lotus solution. Whether that's the one being tested I don't know.

Just out of interest, is he a composite guy at Mercedes?

[Newbrray]

Mercedes W05 chassis on par with Newey’s Red Bull RB10 believes Costa

http://gptoday.com/f...believes_Costa/

Edited by Newbrray, 14 April 2014 - 09:29.

[Markn93]

Mercedes W05 chassis on par with Newey’s Red Bull RB10 believes Costa

http://gptoday.com/f...believes_Costa/

Quite right too 

 

Although he does say that they are faster in high speed corners.

[slmk]

Quite right too 

 

Although he does say that they are faster in high speed corners.

 

And he says that Mercedes is faster in other corners. It's clear that Mercedes is not where it currently is by virtue of only having the best PU.

 

Also, let's not forget that Mercedes was probably the second best car in pure pace (with the mk.2 Pirellis) with above average mechanical grip and aero. Given Red Bull probably had the best EBD/mapping integration, it's possible that the rule changes made it possible for Mercedes to claw back some of that deficit.

[sebastiancooper]

Not sure if they are able to make a serious challenge with this car though 

[Fatgadget]

The best, or nothing! If Merc guides Lewis to 2 more titles, I WILL buy one. That's a promise. I never thought I would be "that guy", but ill happily fork over the dough if this keeps up. As a diehard Hamilton supporter I admit I had a lot of trepidation when he left Mac in 12, even though they kept letting him down. Brawn and Lauda definitely knew what they were doing and were absolutely spot on. This car seems like a masterpiece of engineering.

..Oooh lord wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz!....Personally not my type of car.I did like the Cossie headed 2.5 16V though...What a weapon that was!

Edited by Fatgadget, 14 April 2014 - 10:30.

[slmk]

Time to create Part 2? We have now reached 4,000 posts.

[Ellios]

 

MERCEDES AMG F1 ‏@MercedesAMGF1 8m

Bob Bell to depart @MercedesAMGF1. Full details here -> http://goo.gl/ernoCb  pic.twitter.com/oEBvgjvn6E

 

[AVA1]

http://forums.autosp...i/#entry6675691

Part 2 here, hope this is ok?

[SophieB]

http://forums.autosp...i/#entry6675691

Part 2 here, hope this is ok?

 

Not a problem, but something the mods will generally take care of for you. No need to have two open threads.