4040 replies to this topic

[pikamoku]

c'mon     mates!! 

 

this is best moment of the year,  just wait till Oz unfolds    and the judge car/team/drivers.

 

Honestly, we have NO IDEA about how races will be. May be it's mandatory to be on pole to win, otherwise could be enough top 8 to win, we dont know. Even them dont know.

 

Ferrari have two great drivers (no ofence here), lots of resources and talented people, testing went (pretty) well. So at least untill the summer we must to have faith on the team and enjoy the show . If the first races dont come well it's not a problem (IMO), if we dont see a relative performance improvement then...    

[keiichi]

I really think everyone in this thread (except a few lurking fans of other teams who i saw here) wants to see Ferrari do well. If you'd label your fellow tifosi's "pessimist" for having less than a jingoistic attitude, well, then so be it. I really can't speak for others, but i like to read about/ discuss the technical information. This is the thread about the car, where one could potentially discuss all things about the car. I was elated to see very creative aero solution, but i'm a little down about performance on track. Where do we discuss it if not in the car thread? I mean, it is only logical.

 

By saying pessimist I wasn't trying to be judgemental. The other poster was insinuating that we were being delusional here or something like that, when in fact there's been a tendency for pessimism around here, It's just the truth, and I'm not saying if it's bad or good.

 

I'm sorry if it seemed anything other than this.

[geGR]

I like this thread, I like that people have different opinions, I like that people can be negative and I equally like that people are positive.

I like that Kimi fans and Alonso fans can agree on something besides who's the better driver, eventhough that might change once the season starts.

In short, I like this thread.

Sorry for the off topic!

I, on the other hand, experience suicide tendencies every time I venture into it. Where are Iridiscent and CrucialXtreme when you need them?

[Music Lover]

May be it's mandatory to be on pole to win,

Imagine nobody want to be first...as in most cross ski competitions.

It's possible that all drivers want to be just behind another car saving fuel...

 

AND...that each team drive together and change positions so BOTH drivers can save fuel... and later on during the season, the #1 in each team is behind his team mate... More o less as bicycle races.

 

Imagine, this funny situation!

[Antonov]

the thing I like most if the low profile Ferrari keeps. No wicked promises or shocking statements. Just hard work with positive signs between the lines. Here's hoping

[e34]

By saying pessimist I wasn't trying to be judgemental. The other poster was insinuating that we were being delusional here or something like that, when in fact there's been a tendency for pessimism around here, It's just the truth, and I'm not saying if it's bad or good.

 

I'm sorry if it seemed anything other than this.

 

The other poster, i.e., me, has said, and I quote verbatim

 

I would think that not being able to avoid that your car burns out in flames, or that the power you have available goes wasted, after the full test season has ended, would be a reason to be worried.

 

 

If Ferrari (or any other team) have not been able to find the way to use full power in F14T during test season, I don't know how are they going to find the way during GP weekends. 

 

I will try to explain me again, not to spread pessimism, but to state something that IMO, is obvious, but that maybe someone sees it otherwise.

 

I believe it is fair to say that these cars (Red Bull, Ferrari and the rest) are a nightmare to set up and fix. That much has been said by almost every team, so that is not a question of being a pessimist. There is a team on record saying that they had begun to assemble the car at midnight and ended two hours into the test session. 

 

During test season, sessions last some four hours in the morning and three hours in the afternoon, or something like that. Free practices, during GP weeks, on the other hand, are just two-hour windows.

 

During test season, cars do not have to comply with Technical regulations, so they can be raced outside track-legal parameters, to force or test-destroy things. If I am not wrong, in FP cars have to comply with technical regulations. 

 

Having due regard to the above facts, that I hope are neutral and non-pessimist enough, I fail to see how a team that has not been able to apply all the power generated by its PU (with all the liberties enjoyed during test season) is going to be able to apply such power during a GP weekend. 

 

Without further tests until late in the season, I don't know how are they going to apply full power in FP1 (let alone FP3) without risking to lose the whole Friday practices. In that context, it will be a hit-or-miss try at some moment in FP2 when they go full power and see what happens. And if the car goes kaboom, the team will have to spend the whole night reconstructing it. And if both cars go kaboom, I don't know if they will be able to fix both. 

 

That is why I said that I did not understand the feeling of relief. First because I don't know if they know where the problems are (they may know, but if they don't, now it is going to be really hard to pinpoint the problem), and second, because even if they develop a solution, testing it during a GP weekend is going to be very risky. 

Edited by e34, 04 March 2014 - 09:32.

[nowayback]

Amid the pessimism, the 1st few races seem wide open. I mean lets see which cars will even finish the race, reliability -wise ! And then as many have noted,  there is the mileage issue...Hopefully Ferrari will be close in the points by 3-4th race, so if they are really slower they will have straightened things out.

 

Luckily Ferrari have 2 drivers who get the most out of the cars and and usually move up during the race.

[kosmos]

.Hopefully Ferrari will be close in the points by 3-4th race,

 

It will be very important that a driver don't dominate the first races, if any of the Merc drivers wins everything till Barcelona, that could be a problem, let's hope there is close competition between Hamilton, Rosberg and maybe Massa until we get there. The dream scenario will be to have our drivers always on the podium.

[keiichi]

The other poster, i.e., me, has said, and I quote verbatim

 

 

If Ferrari (or any other team) have not been able to find the way to use full power in F14T during test season, I don't know how are they going to find the way during GP weekends. 

 

I will try to explain me again, not to spread pessimism, but to state something that IMO, is obvious, but that maybe someone sees it otherwise.

 

I believe it is fair to say that these cars (Red Bull, Ferrari and the rest) are a nightmare to set up and fix. That much has been said by almost every team, so that is not a question of being a pessimist. There is a team on record saying that they had begun to assemble the car at midnight and ended two hours into the test session. 

 

During test season, sessions last some four hours in the morning and three hours in the afternoon, or something like that. Free practices, during GP weeks, on the other hand, are just two-hour windows.

 

During test season, cars do not have to comply with Technical regulations, so they can be raced outside track-legal parameters, to force or test-destroy things. If I am not wrong, in FP cars have to comply with technical regulations. 

 

Having due regard to the above facts, that I hope are neutral and non-pessimist enough, I fail to see how a team that has not been able to apply all the power generated by its PU (with all the liberties enjoyed during test season) is going to be able to apply such power during a GP weekend. 

 

Without further tests until late in the season, I don't know how are they going to apply full power in FP1 (let alone FP3) without risking to lose the whole Friday practices. In that context, it will be a hit-or-miss try at some moment in FP2 when they go full power and see what happens. And if the car goes kaboom, the team will have to spend the whole night reconstructing it. And if both cars go kaboom, I don't know if they will be able to fix both. 

 

That is why I said that I did not understand the feeling of relief. First because I don't know if they know where the problems are (they may know, but if they don't, now it is going to be really hard to pinpoint the problem), and second, because even if they develop a solution, testing it during a GP weekend is going to be very risky. 

 

Well, first and foremost, I believe the feeling of relief comes from the general perception that the car isn't inherently slow as has been the case for the past few years, but rather that it seems to have quite a bit of potential but at the moment there are some glitches that have prevented the team to extract everything out of the car.

 

It's not a relief as if we've got this in the bag, but rather that generally people prefer to start with a potentially fast car even if with possible reliability problems, than a bullet proof car that is nowhere near the top pace.

 

Now as to how serious are this glitches I think it's anyone's guess. It seems to be related to how the ERS works together with the engine and could be a serious pain in the *ss or could be something that by Melbourne will be completely or mostly solved.

 

By things that we've been hearing around from the paddock, and the fact that generally the team seems to be reasonably confident, for the moment I won't get too concerned about this, but I admit I could be in for a painful disapointment in Melbourne.

 

We'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by keiichi, 04 March 2014 - 10:59.

[Timothy]

It will be very important that a driver don't dominate the first races, if any of the Merc drivers wins everything till Barcelona, that could be a problem, let's hope there is close competition between Hamilton, Rosberg and maybe Massa until we get there. The dream scenario will be to have our drivers always on the podium.

 

Why the emphasis on Barcelona? What happens during/after Barcelona?

[pusko]

Why the emphasis on Barcelona? What happens during/after Barcelona?

Usually that's the time of biggest upgrades of cars in F1 season.

[Richard T]

Why does every car bar the Ferrari have a monkey seat? IIRC all cars had it 2009-2013. 

[FirstWatt]

I am not too pessimistic.

 

Driveability, usage of MGU-H, MGU-K and ES seem to be a field where they still have to do big improvements, but this is mainly software related and can be further developed without constraints.

 

I think the main concern might be the energy storage itself. There were rumours (which I cannot recall where I heard them...) that charge / discharge power (heat) dissipation was marginal and therefore the ES could not be fully used, i.e. heavy charge and discharge, as eg. during a qualification lap.

If it has to be fixed within the ES (which is part of the homologation) this will be difficult.

I hope a small increase in cooling is enough....

[Ferrari2183]

According to Autosprint Ferrari used their own timing point on circuit.

I'm getting the feeling they're hiding something.

[revmeister]

I am not too pessimistic.
 
Driveability, usage of MGU-H, MGU-K and ES seem to be a field where they still have to do big improvements, but this is mainly software related and can be further developed without constraints.
 
I think the main concern might be the energy storage itself. There were rumours (which I cannot recall where I heard them...) that charge / discharge power (heat) dissipation was marginal and therefore the ES could not be fully used, i.e. heavy charge and discharge, as eg. during a qualification lap.
If it has to be fixed within the ES (which is part of the homologation) this will be difficult.
I hope a small increase in cooling is enough....

Change under homologation for safety or reliability reasons is allowed. They should be able to sort this.

[redviper22]

Why does every car bar the Ferrari have a monkey seat? IIRC all cars had it 2009-2013. 

 

They ran it on the last day.

[Enzoluis]

Why the emphasis on Barcelona? What happens during/after Barcelona?

 

Newe promised the new RB that solve renault PU for that Gp. Then everybody especte to be 1 second behind since that GP.

[keiichi]

According to Autosprint Ferrari used their own timing point on circuit.

I'm getting the feeling they're hiding something.

 

Timing point? What does that mean? I'm sorry if it's a stupid question but I don't think I've ever heard of that.

 

They ran it on the last day.

 

Indeed they have:

 

 

Source: http://thejudge13.com/

[Richard T]

Timing point? What does that mean? I'm sorry if it's a stupid question but I don't think I've ever heard of that.

 

 

Indeed they have:

 

Source: http://thejudge13.com/

 

Timing point: Where they measure the lap time. In essance Ferrari could start to measure their laptime on the back straight so they can complete a "full" lap and then lift of for the second half of the "real" lap so the official time gets somewhat distorted. Autosport Live mentioned that the F14 T set the fastest first and second sectors a few times before going straight to the pits.

 

Ah ok, thank you!

[Timothy]

Newe promised the new RB that solve renault PU for that Gp. Then everybody especte to be 1 second behind since that GP.

 

Seems plausible to me judging from what we witnessed the past five years. We on the other hand should pray the Scuderia doesn't repeat past mistakes (dead end development paths blamed on correlation issues), otherwise we'll consigned to the same old rhetoric.

[keiichi]

Timing point: Where they measure the lap time. In essance Ferrari could start to measure their laptime on the back straight so they can complete a "full" lap and then lift of for the second half of the "real" lap so the official time gets somewhat distorted. Autosport Live mentioned that the F14 T set the fastest first and second sectors a few times before going straight to the pits.

 

Ah ok, thank you!

 

Oh, I get it. Thanks for the explanation!

 

Well, I don't know what to make of it, if this happens to be true. On one hand if they're doing such a thing then they're clearly trying to hide something, on the other it's been widely reported, includind by the team itself, that the car isn't quite where they want it to be yet, specifically ERS wise.

 

I think we'll have to take this timing point story with a pinch of salt perhaps.

[kosmos]

Explained here in detail (Italian).

 

http://www.f1sport.i...-tempi-bahrain/

 

I find hard to believe that something like this was leaked to the press, what is the point?,  

 

 

I guess the morale is low in Italy and the papers need to make stories.

Edited by kosmos, 04 March 2014 - 14:26.

[SpaMaster]

Well that is simply untrue whichever way one tries to spin it...

 

Well, it could be. If the pace of race has to be managed so much during the race to be within the fuel limit, three rows of cars could be bunched up in the race.
 

[Jovanotti]

I never understood what the benefits of "hiding something" would be when testing. Do other teams stop watching the details of your car when they think you're slow (if they could be fooled into it)? Certainly not, especially if you are a top team.

[Ferrari2183]

Explained here in detail (Italian).

http://www.f1sport.i...-tempi-bahrain/

I find hard to believe that something like this was leaked to the press, what is the point?,


I guess the morale is low in Italy and the papers need to make stories.

Autosprint has many sources within Ferrari and they don't post or print rubbish so I wouldn't just write them off.

I think the team believe they have a fundamentally good car and are working hard to resolve whatever ERS issues they have.

Melbourne is around the corner.

[Lazy]

Would be fun if they turned up at Melborne and blew Merc away though.

[emil]

I call bullshit. On both stories: Domenicali saying they didn't use full power (although he could recognise they don't know hot to do it) and the timing points shenanigans. That's Italian press trying to maintain hope.
On the other hand, I don't think the situation is that bad. Ferrari are behind, but not by that much, and reliability will be a big concern especially in the first races. Maybe they'll score some good points and don't fall too much behind the top.

[Ferrari2183]

I never understood what the benefits of "hiding something" would be when testing. Do other teams stop watching the details of your car when they think you're slow (if they could be fooled into it)? Certainly not, especially if you are a top team.

It depends how Ferrari went about it... Other teams are privy to only sector times etc. If Ferrari changed their timing beacons to between sectors or extended sectors then it could make following timing and figuring out what they doing quite difficult.

[Jovanotti]

It depends how Ferrari went about it... Other teams are privy to only sector times etc. If Ferrari changed their timing beacons to between sectors or extended sectors then it could make following timing and figuring out what they doing quite difficult.

Yes, but what's the benefit? Come Australia you're either faster or slower than the others, regardless whether they know it or not. Plus as said before, the opponents are watching your car either way.

Let's see, I certainly hope they have some pace in their car.

Edited by Jovanotti, 04 March 2014 - 15:05.

[keiichi]

I never understood what the benefits of "hiding something" would be when testing. Do other teams stop watching the details of your car when they think you're slow (if they could be fooled into it)? Certainly not, especially if you are a top team.

 

Well being a top team doesn't mean having a top car. So if you know that you have a rocketship in testing, trying to hide is beneficial in the way that teams are always observing their competition to check if they come up with a solution that could also benefit them. But probably no team can afford to be experimenting all the solutions from every other team, so you just have to try and perceive who might be in front of you, understand why, and if it will also work on your car.

 

So by laying low you will divert attention to another team and delay the point when everybody will realise you have a great car.

 

Also, by showing your cards in the first race only means that because of the calendar and the location of the first races, the time for the competition to react will be a lot more than if for instance you show your cards in the mid of testing.

 

With all this talk, I'm nowhere trying to imply that Ferrari have a rocketship or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to show the potential benefits of trying to hide your true pace. At least as I see it.

Edited by keiichi, 04 March 2014 - 15:10.

[turssi]

Well, now everybody is considering Williams gearbox or Merc nose or whatever is the hype.

F14 T is flying low and if it delivers in Australia, but the competition had prioritized developments from other constructors, well then Ferrari has bought two or more weeks of time.

That's why you dont blabber but keep your info to yourself.

[Lokt]

Well, it could be. If the pace of race has to be managed so much during the race to be within the fuel limit, three rows of cars could be bunched up in the race.
 

Spin time Still better to start first then 5th whichever way you want to believe the races are going to fold out.

[SpaMaster]

Spin time Still better to start first then 5th whichever way you want to believe the races are going to fold out.

Not if you have a slightly better fuel economy as opposed to out-and-out pace.

[Hanzo]

Spin time Still better to start first then 5th whichever way you want to believe the races are going to fold out.

 

 

Not if your tyres are going to let you down or your race pace is horrible. I remember Mercedes on pole fading in the actual races. Of course it is better start first than fifth, but not "whichever the races are going to fold out"

[Lokt]

Not if your tyres are going to let you down or your race pace is horrible. I remember Mercedes on pole fading in the actual races. Of course it is better start first than fifth, but not "whichever the races are going to fold out"

 

Then you are changing the discussion to how the cars perform, not which starting position is best.

 

The original discussion started when someone from Ferrari stated the "3rd row in aus is as good as pole position" Which I then stated is simply not true.

[FirstWatt]

According to Autosprint Ferrari used their own timing point on circuit.

I'm getting the feeling they're hiding something.

Hah!

 

AFAIR, Williams did this in their glory years, when they drove circles around the competition.

 

This year I'd say it's maybe more important to hide things which would allow the competition a detailed performance analysis. They could make conclusions about the strategy of charging/discharging ES and such things.

As I said...2014 is a huge ERS algorithm / software contest.

[Hanzo]

Then you are changing the discussion to how the cars perform, not which starting position is best.

 

The original discussion started when someone from Ferrari stated the "3rd row in aus is as good as pole position" Which I then stated is simply not true.

 

 

This is the thread to talk about how the car performs, not the one to discuss which starting position is best.  You can not separate relative cars performances from the discussion, since all the cars perform different. I doubt the original phrase was that, anyway, I am sure it was a conditional "could be as good as". 

Edited by Hanzo, 04 March 2014 - 15:49.

[slmk]

It depends how Ferrari went about it... Other teams are privy to only sector times etc. If Ferrari changed their timing beacons to between sectors or extended sectors then it could make following timing and figuring out what they doing quite difficult.

 

 

It would be very hard to fool the teams. Even RBR's cornerning speed was noted by Mercedes using GPS data or something. Also, if Ferrari had very good pace, then the on-track commentary would have probably been more positive. Even when RBR was not lighting the timesheet, they still appeared to be "on rails". No such feedback for the Ferrari, at least in Bahrain (Jerez was slightly different).

 

Again, might be wrong - and I think Ferrari will be strong, perhaps a favorite as well, but based on what journos have reported and "paddock insiders", it just doesn't look great.

[SpaMaster]

There is a reason why teams sandbag or don't show their full potential.  Let us think about it for a moment.

[Lokt]

This is the thread to talk about how the car performs, not the one to discuss which starting position is best.  You can not separate relative cars performances from the discussion, since all the cars perform different. I doubt the original phrase was that, anyway, I am sure it was a conditional "could be as good as". 

 

"Fuel consumption is the key to win races. In Melbourne a third row is as good as a pole position"

 

This was the quote I refered to. And I know what this thread is for. Going by this quote and the romours that Ferrari ran lower DF settings to lower fuel consumption leads me to believe they are not quite there yet with their PU.

 

And what we have heard from trackside observations is that the Ferrari is a handful coming out of corners which I also believe is connected to the PU.

[Gorma]

There is a reason why teams sandbag or don't show their full potential.  Let us think about it for a moment.

But has that ever worked? When was the last time that we were truly surprised that a team was faster than expected. Sure you can hide your one lap speed, but you are going to do a race sim at some point. Since refueling is banned you cannot run with a full tank all the time. 

[Ferrari2183]

It would be very hard to fool the teams. Even RBR's cornerning speed was noted by Mercedes using GPS data or something. Also, if Ferrari had very good pace, then the on-track commentary would have probably been more positive. Even when RBR was not lighting the timesheet, they still appeared to be "on rails". No such feedback for the Ferrari, at least in Bahrain (Jerez was slightly different).

Again, might be wrong - and I think Ferrari will be strong, perhaps a favorite as well, but based on what journos have reported and "paddock insiders", it just doesn't look great.

When you change your timing beacons you completely throw off the competition because they don't know your revised sector points for example and while they get data on the actual sector times they'll have no idea on how the car performed on the revised sectors. If this tactic was indeed employed you might as well discount all the official track lap times done by Ferrari because they're in all likelihood skewed.

Sure they can rely on how the car looks on track but then you have to factor in what was tested, eg engine modes and downforce levels.

[Menace]

According to Autosprint Ferrari used their own timing point on circuit.

I'm getting the feeling they're hiding something.

 

Interesting. 

[Gorma]

 If this tactic was indeed employed you might as well discount all the official track lap times done by Ferrari because they're in all likelihood skewed.

How do different timing points skew a race sim or a longer stint? It only affects single laps or short stints.

[Lokt]

How do different timing points skew a race sim or a longer stint? It only affects single laps or short stints.

 

Exactly my thought

[Massa]

Yes, but maybe they did their long stints in economy mode ( not all the sim race, but a large part ).. After all, i remember Raikkonen was no faster with the soft than with the medium, with less fuel... He was always in 1.41 - 1.43 range, all the time...

Edited by Massa, 04 March 2014 - 16:56.

[Massa]

Well, it's not by me but by Scuderia.net and it's all bad news

 

 

 

Do not write a lot...here just a summary of what i've read on italian newspapers and heard on tv about Ferrari. That's a pity cause are just bad news.

- we have problems with rear tyre degradation
- engine too aggressive and too much torque
- we have problems running batteries at full power and we run during tests without full power (not cause we wanted to but cause we weren't able to do so)
- we lack in traction in slow corners and downforce in high speed corners
- we must run low downforce due to fuel consumption.
- Our engine has higher consumption and we are forced to run low downforce to reduce drag. In fact we recorded top speed but we are slow in cornering.
- Overall rumors agree we are far behind mercedes (more than 1s)
- Domenical in tv said we are behind mercedes and williams.. and not by a small margin. Focus is already on catching the competition.

 

 

It's says, "our higher speed is the signal that we are forced to run lower downforce to reduce drag and save fuel. this means that competitors (ie mercedes) have probably better fuel consumption and could run higher downforce and be faster in cornering".

 

Well, if all of that it's true, the team is in deep ****.

Edited by Massa, 04 March 2014 - 17:03.

[Gorma]

Yes, but maybe they did their long stints in economy mode ( not all the sim race, but a large part ).. After all, i remember Raikkonen was no faster with the soft than with the medium, with less fuel... He was always in 1.41 - 1.43 range, all the time...

But why would not a team test how their car works in race conditions? I does not make any sense. What's the point to start a new season with a new engine, with new tyres, with new aero, with a new chassis and a new driver without testing the potential of the car? 

[Ferrari2183]

How do different timing points skew a race sim or a longer stint? It only affects single laps or short stints.

They really wouldn't need to skew race sims because that can be done easily enough by lifting on a particular part of the track and factoring that into the calculations.

Also, long runs are really not going to show true potential, especially this year, due to the fuel limit.

[Lokt]

Yes, but maybe they did their long stints in economy mode ( not all the sim race, but a large part ).. After all, i remember Raikkonen was no faster with the soft than with the medium, with less fuel... He was always in 1.41 - 1.43 range, all the time...

 

Well thats probably the name of the game this year on circuts like Bahrain that are hard on fuel. I think Rosberg commented after one of his race sims that it was tight on fuel therby they had to back of in order to make it to the end.