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#151 kimister

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 18:53

I found an article of la stampa on revealed Ferrari engine and there it's said that teams can put as much as fuel they want into car,but at most they can consume 100 lt during the race and they claim that they can adjust the density of the fuel , so can improve the efficiency of it.  I wonder if this was also same for previous years ? I mean in terms of the content of the fuel. Isn't there any rule clarifying the compositions used and limit them ? .. or am I lost in translation  :drunk:

 

http://www.lastampa....aWI/pagina.html



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#152 Jvr

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 20:40

I found an article of la stampa on revealed Ferrari engine and there it's said that teams can put as much as fuel they want into car,but at most they can consume 100 lt during the race and they claim that they can adjust the density of the fuel , so can improve the efficiency of it. I wonder if this was also same for previous years ? I mean in terms of the content of the fuel. Isn't there any rule clarifying the compositions used and limit them ? .. or am I lost in translation :drunk:

http://www.lastampa....aWI/pagina.html

Fuel consumption is next year limited to 100 kg. That means it is measured by weight not by volume i.e. litres. However it seems by the la Stampa story that the meter measuring the fuel consumption is still a flow meter i.e. volume based hence some kind of text book normal temperature fuel density figure would need to be used to convert measured volume based consumption into weight in kilograms.

Now if you somehow can make your fuel densier than the flow meter is calibrated for and in this way contain more energy, you can in theory fool the consumption meter to believe you have used less than 100kg even though you in fact have used more than that.

Edited by Jvr, 21 December 2013 - 20:44.


#153 kimister

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 21:57

Fuel consumption is next year limited to 100 kg. That means it is measured by weight not by volume i.e. litres. However it seems by the la Stampa story that the meter measuring the fuel consumption is still a flow meter i.e. volume based hence some kind of text book normal temperature fuel density figure would need to be used to convert measured volume based consumption into weight in kilograms.

Now if you somehow can make your fuel densier than the flow meter is calibrated for and in this way contain more energy, you can in theory fool the consumption meter to believe you have used less than 100kg even though you in fact have used more than that.

 

What does it mean fuel flow rate restrictions ?  I also heard it in this video .

 


Edited by kimister, 21 December 2013 - 22:00.


#154 Jvr

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 22:23

What does it mean fuel flow rate restrictions ?  I also heard it in this video .
 


Basically the same thing If there is a flow rate restriction in place it means the supply is limited by volume and not by mass. Now if the fuel is densier e.g. colder when it passes by the limiter, it will let more gravitonic mass through (read energy when talking about fuel) even though the volume is the same.

It seems that the problem in the regulation comes exactly from this discrepancy where max consumption is defined by weight but it is for some practical reasons monitored by volume. Playing with the density then gives you a loophole.

#155 kimister

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 22:47

Basically the same thing If there is a flow rate restriction in place it means the supply is limited by volume and not by mass. Now if the fuel is densier e.g. colder when it passes by the limiter, it will let more gravitonic mass through (read energy when talking about fuel) even though the volume is the same.

It seems that the problem in the regulation comes exactly from this discrepancy where max consumption is defined by weight but it is for some practical reasons monitored by volume. Playing with the density then gives you a loophole.

 

Thank you  :up:



#156 vinod131

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:33

maybe i going a bit off the topic how much of kimi 's rally experience will come in handy  with these new regulation changes.



#157 ArkZ

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:54

http://www.caranddri...paign=hootsuite

 

Here's the big part of LDM christmas speech, it's in spanish and translator is not perfect, so someone who knows this language would be welcome, dunno where it should be it's about 2013 season, Alonso ( there's already thread about it) ,Raikkonen ( there' already thread about it), simulator, 2014, politics, 3rd car, Le mans.


Edited by ArkZ, 22 December 2013 - 11:55.


#158 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 16:15

AMuS reports Ferrari may currently have a Aerodynamic advantage compared to some of the other teams that will be using Mercedes or Renault Power Units. AMuS talks about the fact in the video of the Ferrari Power Unit launch you can see the Ferrari exhaust is turned upward toward the turbo whereas Mercedes & Renaults have them bent sideways. This could potentially cause overheating issues but more importantly it could provide an aerodynamic advantage. The orientation of the exhaust pipes could allow for a slimmer coke bottle, one that starts earlier than Mercedes or Renault powered cars.

AMuS Link



#159 Cyanide

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 17:54

AMuS reports Ferrari may currently have a Aerodynamic advantage compared to some of the other teams that will be using Mercedes or Renault Power Units. AMuS talks about the fact in the video of the Ferrari Power Unit launch you can see the Ferrari exhaust is turned upward toward the turbo whereas Mercedes & Renaults have them bent sideways. This could potentially cause overheating issues but more importantly it could provide an aerodynamic advantage. The orientation of the exhaust pipes could allow for a slimmer coke bottle, one that starts earlier than Mercedes or Renault powered cars.

AMuS Link

 

That's very good news already. 

 

Looks like having both the chassis and engine produced in-house does give them a greater advantage next year. 



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#160 jstrains

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 18:03

Great. I hope we will trash them all :clap:



#161 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 18:46

AMuS reports Ferrari may currently have a Aerodynamic advantage compared to some of the other teams that will be using Mercedes or Renault Power Units. AMuS talks about the fact in the video of the Ferrari Power Unit launch you can see the Ferrari exhaust is turned upward toward the turbo whereas Mercedes & Renaults have them bent sideways. This could potentially cause overheating issues but more importantly it could provide an aerodynamic advantage. The orientation of the exhaust pipes could allow for a slimmer coke bottle, one that starts earlier than Mercedes or Renault powered cars.

AMuS Link

 

Bb7sul5CUAIztuo.jpg

 

sketch by Journo P. Filisetti  who saw the real animation

 

But have we already seen the Mercedes exhaust manifolds... also the Reanault ones must not be final.

 

Also the very tight waist (coke bottle) is not everything, RB side pod philosphy is different.



#162 Jvr

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 19:15

Bb7sul5CUAIztuo.jpg
 
sketch by Journo P. Filisetti  who saw the real animation
 
But have we already seen the Mercedes exhaust manifolds... also the Reanault ones must not be final.
 
Also the very tight waist (coke bottle) is not everything, RB side pod philosphy is different.


Interestingly, there does not seem to be an intercooler, at least in these sketches.

#163 Timothy

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 19:32

Don't we just love all the speculation especially if something is rumoured to be in our favour. Btw, I keep on hearing how as little as 10kg  can make a difference in shifting ballast around. Is the weight distribution not pre-determined for all teams? Can someone please demystify this once and for all. 



#164 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 20:11



Bb7sul5CUAIztuo.jpg

 

sketch by Journo P. Filisetti  who saw the real animation

 

But have we already seen the Mercedes exhaust manifolds... also the Reanault ones must not be final.

 

Also the very tight waist (coke bottle) is not everything, RB side pod philosphy is different.

 

I'm well aware a tight coke bottle isn't everything, but with next years sidepods going to be larger/bulkier than 2013, every little bit is going to help. We've seen pictures of the Renault Power Unit and indeed it is "final". It's too late in the game to still be designing the engine. That's not to say changes can't and won't be made before the engine freeze on Feb 28th 2014.



#165 FirstWatt

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:11

[...[]Is the weight distribution not pre-determined for all teams? Can someone please demystify this once and for all.

 
The rules can be downloaded here.
 

ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight :
The weight of the car, without fuel, must not be less than 690kg at all times during the Event.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2014 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 314kg and 369kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.3 Weight of tyres :
The weight limits specified in Articles 4.1 and 4.2 will be adjusted up or down according to any differences (rounded up to the nearest 1kg) between the total set and individual axle set weights respectively of the 2013 and 2014 dry-weather tyres.
4.4 Ballast :
Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
4.5 Adding during the race :
With the exception of compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.



#166 kosmos

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:25

The pic is small but is official, is from the Ferrari official magazine.

 

bcga8aicmaawvsn.jpgewfeq.jpg



#167 HPT

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:50

 

I'm well aware a tight coke bottle isn't everything, but with next years sidepods going to be larger/bulkier than 2013, every little bit is going to help. We've seen pictures of the Renault Power Unit and indeed it is "final". It's too late in the game to still be designing the engine. That's not to say changes can't and won't be made before the engine freeze on Feb 28th 2014.

 

Is this the reason why Ferrari left it so late to show the engine? If there is an advantage why show the engine to the world at all?



#168 keiichi

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:15

The F1 media doing business as usual. First, because all manufacturer's revealed their engine except for Ferrari, they said it was because the engine was crap and the team was having problems developing it, etc, etc. Now that Ferrari finally reveal their engine, they suddenly almost speak of it as if it seems to be the team to beat.

 

Personally I will try to keep my expectations in check, altough I will concede it is pleasant to hear that the team apparently is trying some different solutions regarding the engine.



#169 MclarenMircea

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 17:36

Ferrari team is doomed. Their technical departement have deep problems. Dirk de Beer and Allison cannot make the work of hundreds of engineers which couldn't make a good car in all this years. The wind tunnel it's a fake excuse. The car was developed in their wind tunnel and at the begining of the season was a good car. Toyota Wind Tunnel in Koln is also a good one: Mclaren's last year car which was the fastest car in the field was born and developed in Koln. It's something really scary if subsequent year they cannot develop the car during the season. In november 2012 when Alonso angered at Pat Fry posted on twitter that they have the same solutions at the back of the car since May 2012, while Red Bull and Mclaren were progressing with their car. This year again. They were overtaken as car performance during the year not only by Red Bull but also by Mercedes and Lotus. It will be another mess, because Ferrari's problems are structural. 



#170 ZionLH

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:01

:rolleyes:   Ferrari fans dont need this type of negative crap.Ferrari and fans know that there up against it, they have discussed it in depth in there 2013/14 car thread. However this is a new era with a new car . Some may agree about there internal structure and the development of there car throughout the years but they have been closest to stopping RB titles. I think its quite difficult times for ferrari fans. I know they have  bagged kimi  :up:  but its all about this engine crap (maybe weakest) pull rod suspension (i think they don't have this anymore) and looking into the future its possible Alonso could jump ship. Next year will be a testing time for the team they need to hit the ground running and have good development progress throughout the year but then again because the whole care design philosophy is new next year they might struggle again , mind you so could the other teams.



#171 Kingshark

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 22:48

Ferrari team is doomed. Their technical departement have deep problems. Dirk de Beer and Allison cannot make the work of hundreds of engineers which couldn't make a good car in all this years. The wind tunnel it's a fake excuse. The car was developed in their wind tunnel and at the begining of the season was a good car. Toyota Wind Tunnel in Koln is also a good one: Mclaren's last year car which was the fastest car in the field was born and developed in Koln. It's something really scary if subsequent year they cannot develop the car during the season. In november 2012 when Alonso angered at Pat Fry posted on twitter that they have the same solutions at the back of the car since May 2012, while Red Bull and Mclaren were progressing with their car. This year again. They were overtaken as car performance during the year not only by Red Bull but also by Mercedes and Lotus. It will be another mess, because Ferrari's problems are structural. 

 

Thank you for the motivation.  :up:



#172 HPT

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:16

Ferrari team is doomed. Their technical departement have deep problems. Dirk de Beer and Allison cannot make the work of hundreds of engineers which couldn't make a good car in all this years. The wind tunnel it's a fake excuse. The car was developed in their wind tunnel and at the begining of the season was a good car. Toyota Wind Tunnel in Koln is also a good one: Mclaren's last year car which was the fastest car in the field was born and developed in Koln. It's something really scary if subsequent year they cannot develop the car during the season. In november 2012 when Alonso angered at Pat Fry posted on twitter that they have the same solutions at the back of the car since May 2012, while Red Bull and Mclaren were progressing with their car. This year again. They were overtaken as car performance during the year not only by Red Bull but also by Mercedes and Lotus. It will be another mess, because Ferrari's problems are structural. 

 

Perhaps you're right that Ferrari's problems are structural, so it's a good thing they have restructured, isn't it? Alison is hired to basically take over Fry's job and Fry has been moved to processes and operations (can't remember exactly) side of racing.



#173 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 05:56

Ferrari team is doomed. Their technical departement have deep problems. Dirk de Beer and Allison cannot make the work of hundreds of engineers which couldn't make a good car in all this years. The wind tunnel it's a fake excuse. The car was developed in their wind tunnel and at the begining of the season was a good car. Toyota Wind Tunnel in Koln is also a good one: Mclaren's last year car which was the fastest car in the field was born and developed in Koln. It's something really scary if subsequent year they cannot develop the car during the season. In november 2012 when Alonso angered at Pat Fry posted on twitter that they have the same solutions at the back of the car since May 2012, while Red Bull and Mclaren were progressing with their car. This year again. They were overtaken as car performance during the year not only by Red Bull but also by Mercedes and Lotus. It will be another mess, because Ferrari's problems are structural.

And McLaren produced a dud worthy of the record books with their superior structure...

Remind us how many podiums they scored in 2013???

#174 Cyanide

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:07

An illustration of what the Ferrari could look like. 

 

Ferrar1.jpg



#175 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:32

Seems the doom-mongers are out in force. The circle of life is complete.

 

I'm not expecting the car to look like that, but if it does:  :up:



#176 bogi

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:33

Ferrari team is doomed. Their technical departement have deep problems. Dirk de Beer and Allison cannot make the work of hundreds of engineers which couldn't make a good car in all this years. The wind tunnel it's a fake excuse. The car was developed in their wind tunnel and at the begining of the season was a good car. Toyota Wind Tunnel in Koln is also a good one: Mclaren's last year car which was the fastest car in the field was born and developed in Koln. It's something really scary if subsequent year they cannot develop the car during the season. In november 2012 when Alonso angered at Pat Fry posted on twitter that they have the same solutions at the back of the car since May 2012, while Red Bull and Mclaren were progressing with their car. This year again. They were overtaken as car performance during the year not only by Red Bull but also by Mercedes and Lotus. It will be another mess, because Ferrari's problems are structural. 

 

Is it necessary to come here and troll Ferrari thread, especially with ''McLaren'' name?



#177 MclarenMircea

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 14:36

@bogi

 

You are right. Merry Christmas  ;)



#178 F1Champion

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 16:17

An illustration of what the Ferrari could look like. 

 

Ferrar1.jpg

 

NO!!! Not cooling outlets to seal the diffuser again?!



#179 Timothy

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 16:46

NO!!! Not cooling outlets to seal the diffuser again?!

 

Definitely looks like it, seems to be no end to the development race around Newey's innovative concept, exhaust or no exhaust. Have to say I like the compact look (more in line with f1 cars of the past) but will have to get used to the low nose.



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#180 F1Champion

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 18:50

Definitely looks like it, seems to be no end to the development race around Newey's innovative concept, exhaust or no exhaust. Have to say I like the compact look (more in line with f1 cars of the past) but will have to get used to the low nose.

I really hope not to be honest, and I think that the energy of the hot air from cooling is neither energetic enough or have enough volume to effectively seal the diffuser. Coanda and a coke bottle shape might help to extract the hot air better though. So while some might try it, it hopefully doesn't give anywhere near the performance of a 2013 setup.



#181 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 11:07

I really hope not to be honest, and I think that the energy of the hot air from cooling is neither energetic enough or have enough volume to effectively seal the diffuser. Coanda and a coke bottle shape might help to extract the hot air better though. So while some might try it, it hopefully doesn't give anywhere near the performance of a 2013 setup.

 

Maybe you should not base discussion of fine design details on an artist's speculation on a Hungarian F1 site. Just a thought :)



#182 ollebompa

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 16:50

 

I'm well aware a tight coke bottle isn't everything, but with next years sidepods going to be larger/bulkier than 2013, every little bit is going to help. We've seen pictures of the Renault Power Unit and indeed it is "final". It's too late in the game to still be designing the engine. That's not to say changes can't and won't be made before the engine freeze on Feb 28th 2014.

 

Re te engine freeze. I was under the impression that the freezing of certain components only started in 2015 or atleast so it says in the technical regs. Have i gotten it wrong?



#183 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 19:54



Re te engine freeze. I was under the impression that the freezing of certain components only started in 2015 or atleast so it says in the technical regs. Have i gotten it wrong?

 

FIA Sporting Regs  Appendix 4

 

 

1. An homologated power unit must include all the parts described as “INC” in the “App. 4
Sporting regs.” column of Appendix 2 of the F1 Technical Regulations
.
Other than any parts solely associated with power unit installation in
different types of car
(which have no performance benefit and which may be changed from time to time during the
homologation period with the consent of the FIA), any such power unit is one which is
identical in every respect to either:
 
)a  A
power unit delivered to the FIA no later than
28 February 2014


#184 scheivlak

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:03

 

 

FIA Sporting Regs  Appendix 4

 

 

1. An homologated power unit must include all the parts described as “INC” in the “App. 4
Sporting regs.” column of Appendix 2 of the F1 Technical Regulations
.
Other than any parts solely associated with power unit installation in
different types of car
(which have no performance benefit and which may be changed from time to time during the
homologation period with the consent of the FIA), any such power unit is one which is
identical in every respect to either:
 
)a  A
power unit delivered to the FIA no later than
28 February 2014

 

To be clear: those are the sporting regulations for just the 2014 season!

Which means that there's a freeze for the 2014 season as such from February 28, 2014.

 

 You can find the whole phasing scheme for 2014-2020 in an appendix to the technical regulations http://www.fia.com/s... 2013-12-09.pdf in Appendix 4.



#185 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:12

To be clear: those are the sporting regulations for just the 2014 season!

Which means that there's a freeze for the 2014 season as such from February 28, 2014.

 

 You can find the whole phasing scheme for 2014-2020 in an appendix to the technical regulations http://www.fia.com/s... 2013-12-09.pdf in Appendix 4.

 

The fact remains after February 28th next year teams can't change the engine unless there's some special need for reliability concerns. Which gets back to why I mentioned the freeze next year and the position of the Ferrari exhaust manifold compared to others and other teams ability to make changes so quickly.



#186 scheivlak

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:32

The fact remains after February 28th next year teams can't change the engine unless there's some special need for reliability concerns. Which gets back to why I mentioned the freeze next year and the position of the Ferrari exhaust manifold compared to others and other teams ability to make changes so quickly.

AFAIK changes can be made regardless of reliability reasons, it's just that there's a list of specific things that can be changed - see the appendix I mentioned.



#187 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:44

AFAIK changes can be made regardless of reliability reasons, it's just that there's a list of specific things that can be changed - see the appendix I mentioned.

 

Changes can be made for 2015 power units, but not for 2014 after Feb 28th.



#188 scheivlak

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:55

Changes can be made for 2015 power units, but not for 2014 after Feb 28th.

Well, that's exactly what i mentioned above.



#189 ollebompa

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 20:56

Okey, so so in season development, but as long as a part is not a subject to homologation it can be developed for next year?



#190 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 21:31

Well, that's exactly what i mentioned above.

 

Ok, I guess you weren't aware you jumped into the middle of a conversation. I didn't mention the freeze just to mention it. After the Ferrari Power Unit launch, AMuS had an article about the Ferrari exhaust manifold and how it's pipe came out and straight up, whereas other teams come way out of the side. They mentioned it could potentially be an aerodynamic advantage having the pipes go straight up versus out which could allow a tighter coke bottle shape.  We understand each other now. Cheers. :up:

 

 

@ Olle correct. That and teams will also be developing(just can't be track tested) homogated parts but for implementation in 2015.


Edited by CrucialXtreme, 25 December 2013 - 21:32.


#191 ollebompa

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 21:34

Ok, I guess you weren't aware you jumped into the middle of a conversation. I didn't mention the freeze just to mention it. After the Ferrari Power Unit launch, AMuS had an article about the Ferrari exhaust manifold and how it's pipe came out and straight up, whereas other teams come way out of the side. They mentioned it could potentially be an aerodynamic advantage having the pipes go straight up versus out which could allow a tighter coke bottle shape.  We understand each other now. Cheers. :up:

 

 

@ Olle correct. That and teams will also be developing(just can't be track tested) homogated parts but for implementation in 2015.

 

Okey! Thanks :up:



#192 Richard T

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 22:29

This is the supposed Ferrari V6 test mule again spotted. But this time at Mugello..
Autosprint suggested it was "a Turbo V8 with KERS and ERS-H".

Taken from a post on the Mulsannes Corner Facebook group

1507963_794939670531505_1389377294_n.jpg

#193 Ferrari2183

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:17

This is the supposed Ferrari V6 test mule again spotted. But this time at Mugello..
Autosprint suggested it was "a Turbo V8 with KERS and ERS-H".

Taken from a post on the Mulsannes Corner Facebook group

1507963_794939670531505_1389377294_n.jpg

There was a video clip doing the rounds with regard to testing you mentioned and this car.



#194 sheepgobba

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:38

There was a video clip doing the rounds with regard to testing you mentioned and this car.

 

I know think this more Le Mans, especially given the Magazine title and the way the car looks as well. 

 

Possibly Ferrari back to Le Mans with Fernando after 2016? 



#195 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 18:47

Well the car is a LaFerrari, so I don't think it tells us much about Le Mans.



#196 DoodoolTalla

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 21:33

Well the car is a LaFerrari, so I don't think it tells us much about Le Mans.

That is definitely not a LaFerrari, looks like some kind of a frankenstein prototype. Either the new FXX or Le Mans test car. 



#197 f1RacingForever

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:11

Anyone know when Ferrari will unveil the new car?



#198 f1engineer

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 11:45

on the engine homologation side of things, rules are still in a state of flux as the manufacturers are still negotiating with charlie whiting. at present certain parts of the engine are locked off and homologated in 2014, more in 2015, etc.

 

the current engine manufacturers are winning ground because of the honda situation - of course there is one team lobbying heavily in honda's favour



#199 kosmos

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 14:56

Anyone know when Ferrari will unveil the new car?

 

 

Not yet.



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#200 vmax1

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 16:00

In the sense that it will be a disaster?

 

You're not the only one.

 

After 3 years of disasters you should be used to it by now. I will shocked if they can suddenly produce front line car that is as fast as its rivals. Being the fastest is obviously pure fantasy. The decayed state of this team is still not fully appreciated. To design the level of cars they have since 2009 with their level of resources takes an incredibly level of incompetence.


Edited by vmax1, 27 December 2013 - 16:01.