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Montezemolo's interview:"Alonso is the best driver I've ever met"


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#51 discover23

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:06

Fair enough. I am just trying to make sense of Luca's words. If Luca thought hard about this, I do not believe he would say this about Fernando, however. Michael was the main man who brought Ferrari its first championship since 1979. So that's quite large pressure on a driver to do that. Fernando, is, in my opinion the very best driver on the grid and of his generation today, but is he really better than Michael?

I don't really see anything wrong with that since Shumi committed more errors than Alonso.



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#52 bourbon

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:13

I agree Ferrari made mistakes in 2010 and 2012, I would say Alonso did in 2010, and to a lesser extent in 2012 also. (he did make mistakes in 2012, but very very few)

 

But you could underline mistakes Vettel/RB and Lewis/McLaren made, of course the latter was not prevent the succession of WDC's won. But, if you check back, Alonso in 2010 and 2012 did not make more mistakes than Vettel, Lewis or anyone else on the grid, or did not least underperform as much as them. At least not to a significant level.

 

I agree, it was "doable", but Alonso for me should be complimented on 2012, and to a lesser extent 2010 for getting that close to the WDC. He did his job very well in those years, and did not do his job badly in 2011 and 2013 either.

 

I personally do tend do think that Ferrari management rather than Alonso is to blame for the drought in titles (I know you did not point the finger at Alonso alone) The Elephant in the room though is the job that Red Bull have done all round from 2009-2013, as great as Vettel is, that team has produced in my view the best car the past 4 years, for Alonso to come close in 2010 and 2012 does pay tribute to his talent.

 

Yes, everyone makes errors - teams and drivers.  I don't see what that has to do with it.  Sure 2010 saw Ferrari on the backfoot - they went into the finale leading, but with a slower qualifying and slower paced race car.  For different reasons, the same thing happened to RBR in Brazil 2012 to an even greater degree, yet RBR pulled it out.  So I am not ready to agree that a different driver in the mix wouldn't have changed the outcome in any of these situations. 

 

But again, you can't lay the blame at the door of the driver alone, so it doesn't really matter if a different driver in the mix would have pulled it out - the fact is that Ferrari didn't pull it out for the last 5 years - and that is what serves as the backdrop to Luca's speech, imo.



#53 BenettonB192

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:17

Not sure why he says such a thing in public. Even if its his honest opinion it's a bit of an insult to the driver who has achieved more for Ferrari then all the other drivers, including Alonso, combined in the modern era. And it's basicly admitting that his team is even worse then what it appears.

The only sense i can make of this and his earlier comments regarding the number 1 and 2 status is that he wants to make sure Kimi is as motivated as it gets this time around.



#54 bourbon

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:18

where you got this from? Alonso did win races, to win a championship you need a car that is capable to do so and Alonso is no car designer./engineer, etc. It gets old to read these ludicrous posts from people..

 

 

I got that from Luca, so you have to argue with him:

 

http://www.f1fanatic...santander-link/

http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/



#55 discover23

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:22



Yes, everyone makes errors - teams and drivers.  I don't see what that has to do with it.  Sure 2010 saw Ferrari on the backfoot - they went into the finale leading, but with a slower qualifying and slower paced race car.  For different reasons, the same thing happened to RBR in Brazil 2012 to an even greater degree, yet RBR pulled it out.  So I am not ready to agree that a different driver in the mix wouldn't have changed the outcome in any of these situations. 

 

But again, you can't lay the blame at the door of the driver alone, so it doesn't really matter if a different driver in the mix would have pulled it out - the fact is that Ferrari didn't pull it out for the last 5 years - and that is what serves as the backdrop to Luca's speech, imo.

They got lucky after Vettel first lap hard hit incident. 99 % of the time those hits end up with car damage and DNFs..



#56 discover23

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:27

I got that from Luca, so you have to argue with him:

 

http://www.f1fanatic...santander-link/

http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/

Quote what you said.. I don't see it. all these articles are pointing out is that alonso is better than Kimi from the technical side of things with working with the engineers, spends more time at the factory, etc. Which is no secret...

Nothing here says that Alonso alone will bring the championship to Ferrari which is what you implied..



#57 George Costanza

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:37

I don't really see anything wrong with that since Shumi committed more errors than Alonso.

 

Which errors? The most known ones?
 



#58 discover23

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:48

Which errors? The most known ones?
 

There were many ... 1994 Adelaide, last race of the season he goes off damaging his car under pressure from Hill, he then crashes into Hill to take him out of the race and win the title.. 2006 he goes off road and crashes out of the race in Australia.... In 2003 he made a ton of errors.


Edited by discover23, 22 December 2013 - 23:48.


#59 Kingshark

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 23:56

Yes, everyone makes errors - teams and drivers.  I don't see what that has to do with it.  Sure 2010 saw Ferrari on the backfoot - they went into the finale leading, but with a slower qualifying and slower paced race car.  For different reasons, the same thing happened to RBR in Brazil 2012 to an even greater degree, yet RBR pulled it out.  So I am not ready to agree that a different driver in the mix wouldn't have changed the outcome in any of these situations. 

 

Not at all, Alonso in 2012 was driving against the odds throughout the latter part of the season. Vettel and Red Bull were the favorite. The fact that Alonso nearly pulled it out of the bag makes it all the more impressive.



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#60 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 00:16

Yes, everyone makes errors - teams and drivers.  I don't see what that has to do with it.  Sure 2010 saw Ferrari on the backfoot - they went into the finale leading, but with a slower qualifying and slower paced race car.  For different reasons, the same thing happened to RBR in Brazil 2012 to an even greater degree, yet RBR pulled it out.  So I am not ready to agree that a different driver in the mix wouldn't have changed the outcome in any of these situations. 

 

I do not want to start slagging Seb or anyone else to make a point about Alonso's greatness, as well we do not need to turn this into a fanboy debate.

 

So I will yield a bit here, and simply say I do not think that Brazil 2012 is the best argument to lament Alonso/Ferrari, given McLaren's strengths that weekend.



#61 bourbon

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 01:35

I do not want to start slagging Seb or anyone else to make a point about Alonso's greatness, as well we do not need to turn this into a fanboy debate.

 

So I will yield a bit here, and simply say I do not think that Brazil 2012 is the best argument to lament Alonso/Ferrari, given McLaren's strengths that weekend.

 

You are correct in that this is going completely off topic. 

 

Leaving all of that behind - my original point is that I feel Luca chooses his words carefully in light of the past and for the audience that is most important to Ferrari.



#62 Nemo1965

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:10

I'm sure Michael Schumacher will welcome those comments!

 

Eh no, I am sure that everyone at Ferrari is 'happy' with this comment. Lets say that Luca really believes that Alonso is better than Schumacher. Schumi won all those world championships with Ferrari. Alonso untill no: zilch. Which means that the Ferrari F1 cars since Alonso came are all crap, compared to the cars that Schumi drove... Basically, Luca says here that Ferrari - and hence he himself - are doing a damn rotten job!



#63 Boxerevo

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:46

Alonso for sure and now Vettel...they are in the same league as Schumacher,Prost,Senna imho.

 

 

They are all legends.


Edited by Boxerevo, 23 December 2013 - 09:46.


#64 Jvr

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:06

If Alonso is the best driver what Luca knows and yet he gave him 8 out of 10 this season, I would like to see the rest of Luca's ratings...

#65 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:14

If Alonso is the best driver what Luca knows and yet he gave him 8 out of 10 this season, I would like to see the rest of Luca's ratings...

Because its a opinion not based solely on the 2013 season



#66 prty

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:26

Yes, everyone makes errors - teams and drivers.  I don't see what that has to do with it.  Sure 2010 saw Ferrari on the backfoot - they went into the finale leading, but with a slower qualifying and slower paced race car.  For different reasons, the same thing happened to RBR in Brazil 2012 to an even greater degree, yet RBR pulled it out.  So I am not ready to agree that a different driver in the mix wouldn't have changed the outcome in any of these situations. 

 

But again, you can't lay the blame at the door of the driver alone, so it doesn't really matter if a different driver in the mix would have pulled it out - the fact is that Ferrari didn't pull it out for the last 5 years - and that is what serves as the backdrop to Luca's speech, imo.

 

This is an extreme case here of only looking at the results.

 

Vettel pulls this off in the first lap:

 

l_2012-11-25_-bra_vettel-crash_l2.jpg

 

yet for some miracle managining to continue the race. Ferrari calls Alonso into the pits in 2010 by mistake, and your conclusion is that since one won and the other didn't, all the circumstances were the same so it means that Vettel did more. The conclusion for that is: :lol:


Edited by prty, 23 December 2013 - 11:00.


#67 Balnazzard

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:35

Alonso for sure and now Vettel...they are in the same league as Schumacher,Prost,Senna imho.

 

 

They are all legends.

Imo you cant even compare the drivers from different eras to another....from those drivers we can only compare Schumi and Alonso since they've driven on same era...and while Alonso managed to beat Schumi in 2006 championship, I have no doubts whatsoever in my mind that Schumi was the better driver (before his first retirement...while Schumi could get "hot-headed" like Alonso, he never really "attacked" his own team like Alonso did, that's why I respect him lot more than Alonso, despite Schumi's questionable actions during his career

 

But imo Kimi is just as legend, maybe not as hard-working on factory as Schumi or Alonso, but just as fast on track, his one championship really doesnt reflect what he could have achieved with better equipment, same with Hamilton and Alonso ofcourse....And I doubt no-one can really question Vettel, though we all would like to see him in another team without Newey



#68 kosmos

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:43

If Alonso is the best driver what Luca knows and yet he gave him 8 out of 10 this season, I would like to see the rest of Luca's ratings...

 

 

He backtracked from that.

 

 

Eight out of ten, instead of ten? My eight is worth a ten because it’s a score I give as an incentive: I hope to give it him next year and to give an eight, at least, to the team. - See more at: http://formula1.ferr...h.gXZW72m5.dpuf


#69 motorhead

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:46

I believe Luca knows Alonso better than us, maybe Alonso´s ego needs that kind of praising. We know that he has a history of meltdowns anyway....



#70 Balnazzard

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:53

He backtracked from that.

oh ye...so now 8 is 10, so 10 would be 12? :rotfl: ...I swear Monte is becoming as senile as Bernie....



#71 kosmos

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:02

oh ye...so now 8 is 10, so 10 would be 12? :rotfl: ...I swear Monte is becoming as senile as Bernie....

 

 

The funny thing is that Alonso himself knows that he don't deserve a 10, so there is no need for a 10.

 

 

“It’s always good to know that you are recognised by your peers,” Alonso responded, “but I think 2012 was the best in my career.

“This season, there were times when I did not do well enough, such as when I could have had a little more performance, or when I made a mistake like in Malaysia.

“These are things that cannot be repeated next year,” he insisted. “We must look to have a year of perfection, like 2012.

“What matters is that you are comfortable with yourself, but there are things that will be improved 2013 to 2014,” added Alonso.



#72 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:14

Not at all, Alonso in 2012 was driving against the odds throughout the latter part of the season. Vettel and Red Bull were the favorite. The fact that Alonso nearly pulled it out of the bag makes it all the more impressive.

His 2012 was equal to 1993 from someone else. A season which can be witnessed maybe once in twenty years.

 

Regarding Vettel: What does it say about a driver who could only conquer the top of the drivers' championship table during the latter part of the season, although he was sitting in a team which was already from the fourth race onwards at the top of the constructors championship table. Nevertheless, he still needed a giant update provided by Newey (Suzuka, South Korea, India) to get to the top of the drivers' championship table.



#73 03011969

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:59

His 2012 was equal to 1993 from someone else. A season which can be witnessed maybe once in twenty years.
 
Regarding Vettel: What does it say about a driver who could only conquer the top of the drivers' championship table during the latter part of the season, although he was sitting in a team which was already from the fourth race onwards at the top of the constructors championship table. Nevertheless, he still needed a giant update provided by Newey (Suzuka, South Korea, India) to get to the top of the drivers' championship table.

It says he benefitted from the change in tyres half way through the season. I'm no fan of Vettel for a number of reasons, but I would rate him as one of the top 3 alongside Alonso and Kimi.

Edited by 03011969, 23 December 2013 - 13:03.


#74 JohnDoe

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 14:40

His 2012 was equal to 1993 from someone else. A season which can be witnessed maybe once in twenty years.

 

Regarding Vettel: What does it say about a driver who could only conquer the top of the drivers' championship table during the latter part of the season, although he was sitting in a team which was already from the fourth race onwards at the top of the constructors championship table. Nevertheless, he still needed a giant update provided by Newey (Suzuka, South Korea, India) to get to the top of the drivers' championship table.

 

Drivers' Championship standings after Bahrain   Pos. Driver Points 1 Sebastian Vettel 77 2 Kimi Räikkönen 67   3 Lewis Hamilton 50   4 Fernando Alonso 47   5 Mark Webber 32

 

Please enlighten me as to what I'm missing.

 

PS: English is not my first language either

 

Edited for clarity


Edited by JohnDoe, 23 December 2013 - 15:58.


#75 holiday

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:29

It is not hard to read LDM's red logic. He is axiomatic that Ferrari has the best driver - just as that Ferrari is the best team. Since MS eventually left this very best team, he broke this equation, the sacral bond, hence he cannot be by the best driver anymore.

 

Once LDM does the real world trophy check in a few years' time, he will again fall in line with the general view.


Edited by holiday, 23 December 2013 - 15:31.


#76 Balnazzard

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:31

Yeap, Vettel pretty much dominated the season.....though for sure it was much more tight during the first half....and that just reminds me how strong Kimi was during those first races...Again clear indication that when Kimi gets car to behave like he likes/wants, then he is going to be serious threat to anyone, Alonso and Vettel included.



#77 discover23

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:46

.....

Edited for clarity

I think he was referring to 2010



#78 discover23

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:47

Once LDM does the real world trophy check in a few years' time, he will again fall in line with the general view.

and what is the general view according to you?



#79 holiday

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 15:57

and what is the general view according to you?

 

You can extract the general consensus, even if it is rarely or never made explicit, pretty much from the driver who is commonly cited as yardstick (unless a post-mortem cult distorts the picture). In the 80s and 90s one could often read that hugely popular groups like NKOTB or Take That were right up with The Beatles (seriously), but this turned out to be a flash in the pan because the Beatles are still the reference point today, while time has relegated those other groups to their true place (far) behind them.



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#80 as65p

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:09

Drivers' Championship standings after Bahrain   Pos. Driver Points 1 Sebastian Vettel 77 2 Kimi Räikkönen 67   3 Lewis Hamilton 50   4 Fernando Alonso 47   5 Mark Webber 32

 

Please enlighten me as to what I'm missing.

 

 

The correct numbers from the season in question (hint: 2012)



#81 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 16:46

 (unless a post-mortem cult distorts the picture). 

Yeah, because Senna was not critically beloved before his death  :down:



#82 bourbon

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 17:06

His 2012 was equal to 1993 from someone else. A season which can be witnessed maybe once in twenty years.

 

Regarding Vettel: What does it say about a driver who could only conquer the top of the drivers' championship table during the latter part of the season, although he was sitting in a team which was already from the fourth race onwards at the top of the constructors championship table. Nevertheless, he still needed a giant update provided by Newey (Suzuka, South Korea, India) to get to the top of the drivers' championship table.

 

That is akin to asking what it says about a driver that is unable to match his teammate in qualifying when the pressure is on in the last several races of the season and the team has to use various pre-race and in race methods (i.e., opening his teammate's gearbox or repeated in-race passing orders) to help the driver make up for it.

 

The answer is that it says very little because WDC incorporates all of these things in its final tally - and these methods for improvement are open to all.


Edited by bourbon, 23 December 2013 - 17:08.


#83 Fernandinho

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 17:50

I'm beginning to think the war of words between Alonso and Ferrari was nothing but ruse to get Raikkonen in the team. Alonso knows he's the best and wants to prove it to the world by having the best drivers as team mates and beating them. He already did it to Hamilton. Vettel chickened out, so maybe in order to lure in Raikkonen they carefully created the impression that there was a rift between Alonso and the team. It could be that Alonso was never against hiring Raikkonen, but in fact it was his idea and hiring Raikkonen was Montezemolo's gift to Alonso.



#84 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:14

I don't really see anything wrong with that since Shumi committed more errors than Alonso.

What non-sense! You can't say who is the better driver based on the mistakes they commit. You have to base it based on their performance/achievements. Schumi might have made more mistakes (I am not saying he did), but he might also have been faster, more talented, better and achieved more. There is nothing wrong in making mistakes if your capability is to achieve a bit more than others.

 

As someone said, this is an insult to Schumacher. I am not even getting to other Ferrari drivers or other F1 drivers LdM may have met.  Actually, this is so ridiculously wrong that not many would take his rating seriously.

 



#85 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:21

What non-sense! You can't say who is the better driver based on the mistakes they commit. You have to base it based on their performance/achievements. Schumi might have made more mistakes (I am not saying he did), but he might also have been faster, more talented, better and achieved more. 

 

Would mistakes not be a part of a drivers performance?

 

Plus, steady on, no one has to base a drivers greatness on what you say.



#86 1Devil1

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:22

What non-sense! You can't say who is the better driver based on the mistakes they commit. You have to base it based on their performance/achievements. Schumi might have made more mistakes (I am not saying he did), but he might also have been faster, more talented, better and achieved more. There is nothing wrong in making mistakes if your capability is to achieve a bit more than others.

 

As someone said, this is an insult to Schumacher. I am not even getting to other Ferrari drivers or other F1 drivers LdM may have met.  Actually, this is so ridiculously wrong that not many would take his rating seriously.

 

You can't compare the level of mistakes today with the period Schumacher was driving, cars were completely different/harder to drive, larger gravel beds, running cars in heavy rain. All drivers today making less mistakes, a race ending mistake, is rare, in the 90s we saw a lot more of that. Also because of more retirements and a the points system you could recover after you did put the car into the wall the race before. Consistency is much more a key factor these days to win the championship. 



#87 JohnDoe

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:49

The correct numbers from the season in question (hint: 2012)

 

Again forgive my noobness, but do I have to stand 10 meters away from the monitor and tilt my head 90 degrees to the right because I still see Vettel at the top. This including a non-point scoring finish where Alonso and Hamilton haven't suffered the same fate.

Drivers' Championship standings   After Bahrain 2012

Pos. Driver Points   1 Sebastian Vettel 53   2 Lewis Hamilton 49   3 Mark Webber 48   4 Jenson Button 43   5 Fernando Alonso 43


Edited by JohnDoe, 23 December 2013 - 18:50.


#88 Zava

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:52

I'm beginning to think the war of words between Alonso and Ferrari was nothing but ruse to get Raikkonen in the team. Alonso knows he's the best and wants to prove it to the world by having the best drivers as team mates and beating them. He already did it to Hamilton. Vettel chickened out, so maybe in order to lure in Raikkonen they carefully created the impression that there was a rift between Alonso and the team. It could be that Alonso was never against hiring Raikkonen, but in fact it was his idea and hiring Raikkonen was Montezemolo's gift to Alonso.

post of the year.



#89 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 18:57

I don't think di Montezemolo ever met Nuvolari, Ascari, Clark (they were all dead by the time he was hired by Ferrari) - and he certainly didn't "meet" Fangio, Moss and Stewart in their driving prime. Socially perhaps.

 

Di Montezemolo's time started in the mid 1970s/Lauda 'era' ...  and he would have "met" Villeneuve who Enzo Ferrari  himself said was "the greatest since Nuvolari".

 

[Bias? Probably. Ferrari 'fell out' with Ascari, Fangio and Lauda - all World Champions in his cars. And, Villeneuve was somewhat like 'a son' to him - and died in one of his cars.]

 

Anyway, after Gilles, came the likes of Senna, Schumacher/Hakkinen and the current crop.

 

Most historians who have seen it all rate Shumacher BEHIND the likes of Senna, Clark, Fangio...some even rate him behind Prost and Moss.

 

Push it forward, and it's hard to put Hamilton ahead of Schumacher - and Alonso did not beat Hamilton.

 

Perhaps Alonso is "better" than Schumacher - but two things are clear to me:

 

1. Alonso made a lot of mistakes in 2010. They - either individually (but most certainly collectively) - cost him the Championship; and

 

2. Over the first 5 Grands Prix of 2013 the Ferrari-Pirelli 'package' was superior to the RBR-Pirelli 'package' - yet it was Vettel who led the standings...and, then, at the next GP at Monaco, Alonso was simply terrible.

 

I really can't take di Montezemolo seriously. Part of it i'm sure is that he's talking to Spanish media and the other part is that old Italian is trying to make sure he does his part to keep Alonso motivated to fight for and stay at Ferrari in 2014, 2015.



#90 1Devil1

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 19:07

I don't think di Montezemolo ever met Nuvolari, Ascari, Clark (they were all dead by the time he was hired by Ferrari) - and he certainly didn't "meet" Fangio, Moss and Stewart in their driving prime. Socially perhaps.

 

Di Montezemolo's time started in the mid 1970s/Lauda 'era' ...  and he would have "met" Villeneuve who Enzo Ferrari  himself said was "the greatest since Nuvolari".

 

[Bias? Probably. Ferrari 'fell out' with Ascari, Fangio and Lauda - all World Champions in his cars. And, Villeneuve was somewhat like 'a son' to him - and died in one of his cars.]

 

Anyway, after Gilles, came the likes of Senna, Schumacher/Hakkinen and the current crop.

 

Most historians who have seen it all rate Shumacher BEHIND the likes of Senna, Clark, Fangio...some even rate him behind Prost and Moss.

 

Push it forward, and it's hard to put Hamilton ahead of Schumacher - and Alonso did not beat Hamilton.

 

Perhaps Alonso is "better" than Schumacher - but two things are clear to me:

 

1. Alonso made a lot of mistakes in 2010. They - either individually (but most certainly collectively) - cost him the Championship; and

 

2. Over the first 5 Grands Prix of 2013 the Ferrari-Pirelli 'package' was superior to the RBR-Pirelli 'package' - yet it was Vettel who led the standings...and, then, at the next GP at Monaco, Alonso was simply terrible.

 

I really can't take di Montezemolo seriously. Part of it i'm sure is that he's talking to Spanish media and the other part is that old Italian is trying to make sure he does his part to keep Alonso motivated to fight for and stay at Ferrari in 2014, 2015.

:lol: what?! for Senna you have a case, most of the historians rate Schumacher as second best, after he was ranked 4th by Andrew Benson (a Schumacher hater), the BBC had to shut the comment section, I can see people put these likes in front of Michael, but on average experts and fans, ranked Schumacher in front of Clark or Fangio. So where you coming from, annoying when people create "facts" just for the sake of it



#91 SpaMaster

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 19:21

Would mistakes not be a part of a drivers performance?

 

Plus, steady on, no one has to base a drivers greatness on what you say.

May be, but only "a part", not the main basis. You can't say A was better than B because A made less mistakes. If that's the case, people would not compete at all. I seriously can't believe I am defending that Schumacher is not a worse driver than Alonso and that too this bizarre mistake concept. Okay, let people imagine whatever they want, ha ha..

 



#92 discover23

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 19:22

What non-sense! You can't say who is the better driver based on the mistakes they commit. You have to base it based on their performance/achievements. Schumi might have made more mistakes (I am not saying he did), but he might also have been faster, more talented, better and achieved more. There is nothing wrong in making mistakes if your capability is to achieve a bit more than others.

 

As someone said, this is an insult to Schumacher. I am not even getting to other Ferrari drivers or other F1 drivers LdM may have met.  Actually, this is so ridiculously wrong that not many would take his rating seriously.

This would be an insult to Shumi only if you did not rate Alonso as the best in the business. 

Shumi may have been faster, more talented based on what exactly? Both Massa and Luca who worked with both drivers have concluded that Alonso was the stronger of the two.. so you can argue that he achieved more which is fine .. Vettel also has.. so? We've been following f1 long enough to conclude that results alone does not give you an indication to rate a driver.

So with all things considered.. there is a very strong argument to be made that Alonso is the better Ferrari driver.

 

Luca:  "The Spaniard is a mix of Lauda and Schumacher; like the former he has the ability to drive every race lap as though it was qualifying, like the latter he has the intelligence to know when it's time to push and when it's time to look after the car."


Edited by discover23, 23 December 2013 - 19:34.


#93 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 19:25

:lol: what?! for Senna you have a case, most of the historians rate Schumacher as second best, after he was ranked 4th by Andrew Benson (a Schumacher hater), the BBC had to shut the comment section, I can see people put these likes in front of Michael, but on average experts and fans, ranked Schumacher in front of Clark or Fangio. So where you coming from, annoying when people create "facts" just for the sake of it

 

I said "most historians who have seen it all"!

 

I didn't say "most historians who only started reporting from Grands Prix starting in 1984"!

 

You know little to nothing about Formula One or Grand Prix racing if you're going to come here and tell us you know everything, especially if you discount the 1930s, 1950s-1970s.

 

Do you realize that Formula One and Grand Prix racing and motor sport existed BEFORE the 1980s?

 

I doubt it.

 

PS

By the way I also wrote "Perhaps Alonso is "better" than Schumacher..." but you conveniently forgot that.

 

PSS

In case you don't know the English language, "perhaps" is not 'fact' - it could be an 'opinion' or a 'suggestion' or an 'enquiry', depending on context.


Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 23 December 2013 - 19:35.


#94 as65p

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 19:51

Perhaps Alonso is "better" than Schumacher - but two things are clear to me:

 

1. Alonso made a lot of mistakes in 2010. They - either individually (but most certainly collectively) - cost him the Championship; and

 

2. Over the first 5 Grands Prix of 2013 the Ferrari-Pirelli 'package' was superior to the RBR-Pirelli 'package' - yet it was Vettel who led the standings...and, then, at the next GP at Monaco, Alonso was simply terrible.

 

1. "a lot" is a gross exaggeration. Vettel made a similar no. of mistakes and on top of that barely managed to beat Webber.

2. That's just your simplified opinion, in any case not half as clear-cut as you make it sound.



#95 Jvr

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 20:23

Luca:  "The Spaniard is a mix of Lauda and Schumacher; like the former he has the ability to drive every race lap as though it was qualifying, like the latter he has the intelligence to know when it's time to push and when it's time to look after the car."


Abu Dhabi 2010 is an example of these skills at it's best, Luca's eye can not be fooled.

#96 jedioriginal

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 21:01

I personally don't see any problems with Montys opinion.I think that big part of schumis succes was because there were no test limits.

#97 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 21:15

May be, but only "a part", not the main basis. You can't say A was better than B because A made less mistakes. If that's the case, people would not compete at all. I seriously can't believe I am defending that Schumacher is not a worse driver than Alonso and that too this bizarre mistake concept. Okay, let people imagine whatever they want, ha ha..

Fair enough, but I have seen the "mistake" criteria used for saying Alonso is better than Senna as well, if you scour James Allen's site.

 

I do not think Alonso is better than Schumi based solely on that criteria myself (I would say its debatable who made more mistakes), but it is a reasonable point of contention. I do not think it is worth mockery.



#98 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 21:19

 

You know little to nothing about Formula One or Grand Prix racing if you're going to come here and tell us you know everything, especially if you discount the 1930s, 1950s-1970s.

 

Nah, he is talking with some merit.

 

I did some research of online polls recently, and the majority of fans, drivers and critics voted Senna best, with Schumi second. Fangio and Clark I found were rated highly, but nowhere near the other two.

 

I cannot remember the exact numbers, but Senna topped around 25 polls (including the largest samples of driver/fan polls I could find), Schumi just under 10, and Clark and Fangio maybe got 1 or 2 each. You may have a point, as historians/long term fans did seem to rate them higher than modern fans did, but that would be nature.



#99 sennafan24

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 21:20

I personally don't see any problems with Montys opinion.I think that big part of schumis succes was because there were no test limits.

Byron Young?   ;)



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#100 as65p

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 22:03

Again forgive my noobness, but do I have to stand 10 meters away from the monitor and tilt my head 90 degrees to the right because I still see Vettel at the top.

 

No, just get your dates and numbers right, especially arguing from a high horse. It really helps! :wave: