82 replies to this topic

[caccamolle]

I am so sick and tired of these guys crying time and time again about costs.

 

They should thank the Lord they are in F1, where they do not belong.  And they should shut up and get their cars to perform in a less embarrassing way.  They ruin an already deteriorated show and only exist so the F1 top brains can say they are keeping costs "low".

 

The cost saga in general is very disturbing and should be abandoned, not so much because the basic intent is bad but because it is just impossible to manage and has resulted in lots of pathetic situations in F1 without bringing one little benefit whatsoever.  Except for the clown team called Caterham (and HRT ….)

 

Thoughts ?

Edited by caccamolle, 04 January 2014 - 14:32.

[study]

Two thoughts

What team are you a fan off?

Second one, even worse then this is the stupid bonus system that gives red bull and Ferrari more then any other team for just turning up, I think that is more unfair then anything cater ham is doing?

Maybe if the sport was set out fairly then the caterhams of this world would be able to compete

[Gilles4Ever]

Furthermore have you bothered to look at the regulations when these teams joined, goal posts and everything?

[alfa1]

I am so sick and tired of these guys

they should shut up 

pathetic situations

without bringing one little benefit whatsoever. 

the clown team called Caterham

 

I think they must have kicked your puppy, or stolen your girlfriend.

 

Edit - a bit of searching finds the real answer: the OP is a Ferrari fan.

Edited by alfa1, 04 January 2014 - 14:51.

[maverick69]

Hang the bastards

[Fastcake]

Caccamole, stop whining or get out.

F1 would be a poorer place without Caterham and Marussia, you may not care about them but the rest of us would rather have a larger grid and more seats available for drivers.

[FerrariV12]

I agree and disagree. You're never going to stop teams spending what they have (unless a budget cap can be strictly enforced, which I doubt) and moaning about that is useless. But the sport would be poorer without the teams at the back and I consider them just as important and valuable as the teams at the front, the focus should be on giving the poorer teams a fairer share of the sports revenues rather than clipping the wings of teams at the front while continuing to give them a disproportionate amount of the income.

[Jackmancer]

F1 would be a poorer place without Caterham and Marussia, you may not care about them but the rest of us would rather have a larger grid and more seats available for drivers.

 

Indeed. I don't want the grid to be even smaller. MotoGP had that problem for a while I think. Almost all finishers got points there (not helped by 15 place-points finishes but still).

[SpaMaster]

I am so sick and tired of these guys crying time and time again about costs.

 

They should thank the Lord they are in F1, where they do not belong.  And they should shut up and get their cars to perform in a less embarrassing way.  They ruin an already deteriorated show and only exist so the F1 top brains can say they are keeping costs "low".

 

The cost saga in general is very disturbing and should be abandoned, not so much because the basic intent is bad but because it is just impossible to manage and has resulted in lots of pathetic situations in F1 without bringing one little benefit whatsoever.  Except for the clown team called Caterham (and HRT ….)

 

Thoughts ?

Non-sense. The Caterhams, Marussias and HRTs are important to F1. Caterham is right about the costs. Force India, Sauber and Lotus have said the same recently.

 

[chunder27]

Been the same since EuroBrun and AGS and Rial

 

Some folk are quite happy to be involved, and now and then they have their day, remmebr Danner at Detriot!

 

Either way OP, keep your daft opinions to your facebook friends as on here you will get eaten alive with tripe like that!

[Andrew Hope]

F1 is supposed to be expensive. If you can't afford it, there are plenty of other racing series to go to. IndyCar would be happy to take you.

[Fastcake]

F1 is supposed to be expensive. If you can't afford it, there are plenty of other racing series to go to. IndyCar would be happy to take you.

 
Is it? That's hardly good for F1 in any case, and there's few series out there that allow you to build your own car.

[ardbeg]

I think that if someone has money to spend and is willing to spend it, then they will do it. Currently F1 is giving all the money to those who already have a lot, so that they can spend more. Those who have little get little. Unfortunately, that does not only apply to F1. Is it fair?

[seahawk]

F1 is supposed to be expensive. If you can't afford it, there are plenty of other racing series to go to. IndyCar would be happy to take you.

 

And in the end you have 4-5 teams and max. 15 cars. Then F1 is dead.

[alframsey]

I am not so sure about costs being brought down, for me the issue surrounds fare distribution of funds to teams. Give them a fare share and they will be fine.

[FullThrottleF1]

Like them or not, F1 needs Marussia and Caterham. And hopefully we will get another squad in 2015 with the rumoured new entrant.

[Shambolic]

The new teams applied under the impression theyre was to be a cost cap, and as I recall, customer cars too.

 

That was then entirely reversed (and thank a "true racer, in it for the sport" Mr Williams in part for the customer car veto.. Of course, he himself has always been a chassis builder, right from day one..) and these teams found themselves accepted into a situation they weren't fully prepared for.

 

And F1 is supposed to be the best package of car and driver under a given set of rules. That makes it more expensive than many series, but the idea it should cost more than enough to feed and clothe and medicate half the known world, is obscene.

[pdac]

Unfortunately for the new teams, they were lead to believe there would be significant cost controls in place, but that didn't happen. The point is, they didn't have this written into any form of contract, so they are stuck with the situation they're in. They can moan a bit, but if you start a business on trust then sometimes you get burned.

[nosecone]

I have the feeling that some people around here would like to see the F1 with just 4 teams.

 

Top teams! stop whining about the cost cap or get out!

[Slackbladder]

Unfortunately for the new teams, they were lead to believe there would be significant cost controls in place, but that didn't happen. The point is, they didn't have this written into any form of contract, so they are stuck with the situation they're in. They can moan a bit, but if you start a business on trust then sometimes you get burned.

Especially if that person you're dealing with is a certain Mr Eccelstone.

[Anderis]

I'll keep whining with Caterham, because they seem to be decently organised team with decent resources, some good names on both engineering and business side and not bad sponsorship backing. They're completely incomparable in these aspects to backmarkers from 80-ties or 90-ties. If F1 is too expensive for them, then it's too expensive overall in my opinion.

I can't understand the approach of some people claiming, that if F1 is too expensive for somebody, then they should leave. It's not like current teams are blocking entries for dozens of better financed teams willing to participate. If there was just one team that is ready to spend more than Caterham, it would have bought the HRT's entry and started in F1 last year. It didn't happen because there are no better options for F1 than Caterham to fill the 10-11 teams grid ATM.

 

And seeing 3+ cars from one team is the option I'm whining about even more, because it means more team orders, less variety, less surprises. More dominance of so called big teams and easier to keep their dominance. Exactly what they would like to see, which is why Ferrari is pushing for it, but it's not the way for healthy and interesting F1 IMO, unless you just care for one or two certain top teams or drivers.

Edited by Anderis, 04 January 2014 - 17:04.

[Andrew Hope]

And in the end you have 4-5 teams and max. 15 cars. Then F1 is dead.

 

F1 has always been richest team wins, and it's never been 4-5 teams. If the teams collectively want to change F1 to a low-cost racing series they can do that, but right now they are all acting in their own self-interest, and quite rightly.

[caccamolle]

Hang the bastards

lol

[caccamolle]

in what way the presence of those zero achieving teams improves F1 I wish I knew.  It does not.  In fact, it ridicules it on the altar of "low costs" bs.

 

They don't bother me personally as a spectator, but I can't stand their whining.  Get to work, improve your car and stop the whining, start making progress.  If you can't, leave.

 

But that is just my view.  Some of view feel that F1 needs such teams, good for you.  I do not.  I don't really care.  F1 is indeed a thing between big guys, always has been and always will be.  At times, we might see a successful new comer, great.  

Edited by caccamolle, 04 January 2014 - 17:39.

[nosecone]

Ok then we ban all teams bar Brasil, England, Spain, France, Germany, Argentinia, Italy (don't feel insulted if i missed your country) from the FIFA World Cup. Nobody cares about the others. They won't win anyway.

 

Every team is whining and trying to change the rules for their benefit. If Ferrari does it is ok but if Caterham does it it is wrong?

Edited by nosecone, 04 January 2014 - 17:53.

[dau]

Teams that have complained or voiced concern about costs:

 

Mercedes

Ferrari

Lotus

McLaren

Force India

Sauber.

Toro Rosso

Williams

Marussia

Caterham

[JHSingo]

Teams that have complained or voiced concern about costs:

 

Mercedes

Ferrari

Lotus

McLaren

Force India

Sauber.

Toro Rosso

Williams

Marussia

Caterham

 

Teams that have actually done anything productive about it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[seahawk]

F1 has always been richest team wins, and it's never been 4-5 teams. If the teams collectively want to change F1 to a low-cost racing series they can do that, but right now they are all acting in their own self-interest, and quite rightly.

 

Just with the difference that the Caterham budget would have been upper midfield level then.

[study]

The free hand outs redbull and ferrari get are more then the bottom times combined operating costs, that is the real injustice 

[pdac]

Ok then we ban all teams bar Brasil, England, Spain, France, Germany, Argentinia, Italy (don't feel insulted if i missed your country) from the FIFA World Cup. Nobody cares about the others. They won't win anyway.

 

Every team is whining and trying to change the rules for their benefit. If Ferrari does it is ok but if Caterham does it it is wrong?

 

No, but you could tell them they have to cover all of their costs themselves.

 

Teams that have complained or voiced concern about costs:

 

Mercedes

Ferrari

Lotus

McLaren

Force India

Sauber.

Toro Rosso

Williams

Marussia

Caterham

 

Teams that have actually done anything productive about it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This sums it up nicely. The British attitude - complain to everyone on the table about how bad your food is but when the waiter asks "is everything OK?" tell him "Yes thank you" and leave your 15% tip at the end.

[ExFlagMan]

in what way the presence of those zero achieving teams improves F1 I wish I knew.  It does not.  In fact, it ridicules it on the altar of "low costs" bs.
 
They don't bother me personally as a spectator, but I can't stand their whining.  Get to work, improve your car and stop the whining, start making progress.  If you can't, leave.
 
But that is just my view.  Some of view feel that F1 needs such teams, good for you.  I do not.  I don't really care.  F1 is indeed a thing between big guys, always has been and always will be.  At times, we might see a successful new comer, great.

What about Stewart Racing/Jaguar Racing - I wonder what happened to those 'back of the grid' teams?

Edited by ExFlagMan, 04 January 2014 - 20:13.

[Hans V]

I disagree and think Caterham has a valid point. F1 will be insanely expensive (mostly due to technology that is not relevant to anything outside F1) next year, at least if one want to be competetive - and at the same time sponsorship is increasingly difficult to get. Even McLaren apparently has major problems landing a new title sponsor. The accumulated costs will increase dramatically next year, while the accumulated income from sponsors probably are going down, which is not sustainable. I fear that we can loose 2-5 teams nest year. In addition to Caterham and Marussia as obvious candidates for going bust, Sauber, Force India and Lotus are in financial dire straits and may not survive.

[caccamolle]

Ok then we ban all teams bar Brasil, England, Spain, France, Germany, Argentinia, Italy (don't feel insulted if i missed your country) from the FIFA World Cup. Nobody cares about the others. They won't win anyway.

 

Every team is whining and trying to change the rules for their benefit. If Ferrari does it is ok but if Caterham does it it is wrong?

come on man, this is stupidity incarnated - I know you know it.

[caccamolle]

I disagree and think Caterham has a valid point. F1 will be insanely expensive (mostly due to technology that is not relevant to anything outside F1) next year, at least if one want to be competetive - and at the same time sponsorship is increasingly difficult to get. Even McLaren apparently has major problems landing a new title sponsor. The accumulated costs will increase dramatically next year, while the accumulated income from sponsors probably are going down, which is not sustainable. I fear that we can loose 2-5 teams nest year. In addition to Caterham and Marussia as obvious candidates for going bust, Sauber, Force India and Lotus are in financial dire straits and may not survive.

 

so be it.  Let it blow up.  Hopefully some will learn their lessons. Over regulation is not what is needed.  More regulations will kill the sport for good (already has damaged it significantly).

[sennafan24]

 More regulations will kill the sport for good (already has damaged it significantly).

Depends, has some of the regulations on-track hindered the sport for some viewers/drivers? Probably , yes.

 

Is more regulation needed elsewhere, so that F1 can have a healthy number of profitable teams and more drivers can live F1 dream? Again, I would yes.

 

No matter how you spin it, you are going to end up supporting a sport with only 5 or 6 teams, you think that would not damage the sport?

[Jejking]

Look at it this way, Caterham and co with little resources are hanging in there, distance to top teams is barely growing. Thats an achievement by itself, since we live in an age of evolution from the moment they joined. 2014 is a shakeup so thats their biggest chance of points if they get their **** together and are slightly lucky.

[Doughnut King]

so be it.  Let it blow up.  Hopefully some will learn their lessons. Over regulation is not what is needed.  More regulations will kill the sport for good (already has damaged it significantly).

 

If F1 blows it up, it won't comeback. I honestly believe that if F1 somehow collapsed then nothing like it would ever return, and it would take many other series with it. F1 and motorsport in general simply doesn't have the appeal to sustain such high budgets.

 

This next year or so is either going to make or break F1.

Edited by Doughnut King, 05 January 2014 - 00:28.

[rhukkas]

1. The FIA introduce Formula E. A series which apart from being 'green' is going to be raced in major cities where there will actually be human people watching. Basically the FIA have created a much more digestible product for companies to invest in and sponsor. That's not good for small F1 teams.

 

2. Massive rule changes put advantage into hands of major manufactures. While I am supportive of multi-brand race series, they have to be within a stable regulatory environment. 

 

3. Everyone is broke.

 

F1 doesn't really have anything 'going' for it at the moment apart from the popularity it has banked... but it keeps digging into its savings to save itself from the abyss. It won't be long until the account in bone dry. F1 as a concept is not sustainable...10-15 years max. then its over guys.

Edited by rhukkas, 05 January 2014 - 00:26.

[Dolph]

I am so sick and tired of these guys crying time and time again about costs.

 

They should thank the Lord they are in F1, where they do not belong.  And they should shut up and get their cars to perform in a less embarrassing way.  They ruin an already deteriorated show and only exist so the F1 top brains can say they are keeping costs "low".

 

The cost saga in general is very disturbing and should be abandoned, not so much because the basic intent is bad but because it is just impossible to manage and has resulted in lots of pathetic situations in F1 without bringing one little benefit whatsoever.  Except for the clown team called Caterham (and HRT ….)

 

Thoughts ?

 

You stop whining or get out.

 

Thoughts?

[Morbus]

I think they must have kicked your puppy, or stolen your girlfriend.

 

Edit - a bit of searching finds the real answer: the OP is a Ferrari fan.

Probably the puppy...

[caccamolle]

Depends, has some of the regulations on-track hindered the sport for some viewers/drivers? Probably , yes.

 

Is more regulation needed elsewhere, so that F1 can have a healthy number of profitable teams and more drivers can live F1 dream? Again, I would yes.

 

No matter how you spin it, you are going to end up supporting a sport with only 5 or 6 teams, you think that would not damage the sport?

 

yes, of course it depends.   However regulations should not be dictated by that goal, that is, the number of teams.  That is pure greed, imho, it certainly pleases Dr. Ecclestoned.  To me, if there were 5 or 6 teams left because they achieve the level of top motorsport performance needed, absolutely, I would be just as happy as if there were 20 teams at that level.  It is not the point.  NOt at all.

 

Again if you feel that HRT, Katamaran and Co. improve the sport, ok, I hear you.  I simply disagree.

Edited by caccamolle, 05 January 2014 - 05:58.

[caccamolle]

Look at it this way, Caterham and co with little resources are hanging in there, distance to top teams is barely growing. Thats an achievement by itself, since we live in an age of evolution from the moment they joined. 2014 is a shakeup so thats their biggest chance of points if they get their **** together and are slightly lucky.

 

I have no issue with that.  Fine.  Progress noted and welcome.  But let it be progress and NO f****g whining.

 

F1 does not have to be a sport for everyone.  What is it. communism ?  

[caccamolle]

If F1 blows it up, it won't comeback. I honestly believe that if F1 somehow collapsed then nothing like it would ever return, and it would take many other series with it. F1 and motorsport in general simply doesn't have the appeal to sustain such high budgets.

 

This next year or so is either going to make or break F1.

 

May be, but I doubt it.  And if it disappeared, then be it.  I will miss it.  The great constructors will get me interested in some other stuff because they are not likely to disappear and abandon racing.  I would rather see that happen than see the sport further transformed away from its roots, as the top end of motor racing.

[caccamolle]

You stop whining or get out.

 

Thoughts?

 

lol

 

oh well, another deep thinker  

[caccamolle]

Probably the puppy...

you guys must be HRT or katamaran fans.  Sorry, I really did not intend to make you feel so bad.  Please don't take offense.

[SpaMaster]

F1 is supposed to be expensive. If you can't afford it, there are plenty of other racing series to go to. IndyCar would be happy to take you.

 

That may be true in general. But if F1 is so expensive that only 4-5 teams are able to participate with their full ability, then it is bad for the sport itself. At least 10-12 teams should be able to compete in a fair way. Each team should have a chance to raise to the very top. That is fair sport. I am not say that Jumbo sports that is joining next year should have the chance to compete for championship. There should an incentive for prolonged excellence. Teams that do well over a period of time should have a chance to progress. With time there has to be provisions to move up the ladder. The present cost situation of F1 is such that only a select group of entities are in power and they want to use it to sustained being-inn-power and not also anyone else have a look in. This is a classic case of unfair competition.
 

[SpaMaster]

I have no issue with that.  Fine.  Progress noted and welcome.  But let it be progress and NO f****g whining.

 

F1 does not have to be a sport for everyone.  What is it. communism ?  

What sort of government is the present F1 then? I would like to see how it compares with communism.

 

[CoolBreeze]

There are two ways to look at it. 

 

1) Backmarkers are important to F1. They are considered a stepping stone, the whole team generally works as hard as the top team to give it their best. Hence, they deserve full respect. When they are on the grid, it's a risk. They came through using a shoestring budget and it's important how they use their resources. Without backmarkers, there's no Schumacher, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Barrichello to name a few modern drivers. 

 

2) However, it's also important to note that these last few years, those backmarkers hardly produced or, gave a debut to a potentially good driver. If i recall correctly, Vettel driving a STR, which was a Minardi back in 2008, came out as someone. If i go deeper, then maybe you can argue about Adrian Sutil. 

 

My point is, they are important, however, we all know that F1 is a darn expensive sport to be in. So it's either you fully be committed, and try to negotiate for proper deals, sponsorships, etc, or best to just leave. I don't see how punishing the entire field just for 1-2 smaller teams is going to do the sport any good. At the end of the day, you can't buy a Lamborghini and maintain it with a 5k salary a month, correct?

[CoolBreeze]

What sort of government is the present F1 then? I would like to see how it compares with communism.

 

I believe the OP means that funds should be distributed evenly among the teams to ensure a more competitive field. 

[CatInTheBag]

 

I am so sick and tired of these guys crying time and time again about costs.
...................... (and HRT ….)
 
Thoughts ?

 



Playing the devil's advocate ?