150 replies to this topic

[fluffy38]

I would'nt get too excited about 2014 for maclaren...

Ive heard from sources at HPP that they are getting the minimum info they need.. and knowing how important powertrain is....

 

2015 may be their year though ! Alonso ? + Honda

 

 

[Edit; For an explanation on why this thread has been split, see here; http://forums.autosp...plit/?p=6544666 ]

[MclarenMircea]

@ATM_Andy

 

You said that you are close to Mclaren, PLEASE tell us only one thing. Has Mclaren received the type of information they needed for designing the car from Mercedes. Jonathan Neale, Martin Whitmarsh and Totto Wolff said that Mercedes has to give Mercedes the standard information they need for designing the car, and have to be the same specification if the engine which Mercedes factory team will have. I repeat, they don't need that core information as the philosophy of the engine, the nature of the internal workings, but the type of information to only fit the chassis and integrate it well into the car. Mclaren haters, would love a Mclaren sabotage, and they are very biased againts Mclaren, and they overate and overate this fear that some Mclaren fans have about Mercedes information. 

Another statament from Jonathan Neale:"Mercedes will give us the information we need," McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale said. "We have given undertakings to Mercedes and they are being respectful about giving us all the information we need but not giving us more information than we need to get the job done and that's understandable. " 

[Newbrray]

 I think that thay got the information they needed for designing the car. They don't need all those things about the internal workings, which consists the intelectual proporty of the engine, they need standard information, weight, size, how to integrate it better in the chassis, and not that type of information that the philosophy of the engine and all that internal details.

 

""McLaren is a customer and we have long history with McLaren, so we will do everything to support them from Mercedes' point of view," he said. "We are in modern times so there is no such thing as different specs [of engine] and different specs are not allowed by the regulations anyway. The support of Mercedes is there [for McLaren] as it is for anybody else."

McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale is confident his team will receive equal hardware to the other Mercede-supplied teams, but said it is understandable if they are phased out of future plans for the engine.

"I've worked with Mercedes for a long time and I know the team up there [in Brixworth]," he said. "I think when you have limited engines - the days of six engines in a weekend are long gone - with just five power units for the year, it means that in order to get a high-quality part, everything coming down the production line has to be the same. They can't have an 'A' model, a 'B' model and a 'C' model.

"Now, do I think in a glimmer of a dyno somewhere that the one that's a little bit better might go in one direction? I think so, but it's going to be in the noise. Parity is something that will give Mercedes-Benz the quality and brand reputation that they want, so I don't fear that at all.

"In terms of the service that we are getting, then clearly they are not going to reveal as much of the internal workings of what is going on. But I've no worries about the quality of team we have in the garage or the support from Brixworth.

Read more at http://en.espnf1.com...WzE7eh6ZQuce.99

 

Am sorry dude but if you believe that then I don't know what else to say. F1 is one of the most competitive sports ever and each team will do its utmost best to scupper the competition in any way they deem fit.

 

Mercedes will definitely have given McLaren some information with regards to the power units but am pretty sure they could have held back on certain key pieces of information they don't need to divulge as they are both in competition with each other.

 

I don't for a minute believe all that PR nonsense that they have provided all the required info, on the flip side neither do I believe that McLaren will not try and gain information from the power units over the course of the season and pass on to Honda. This is F1 "All's fair in love and war."

 

Don't forget that this is the same mercedes that tried to pull the wool over the whole of F1 with the secret tests last year and this is the same Mclaren that was in possession of sensitive material from ferrari. Please don't  lap up all the PR cra*p they are spewing., they are all prepared to beg, borrow, cheat, steal and considerably a lot more just to get an extra 0.0005 of a sec over the competition.

 

wake up and smell the coffee!!!

Edited by Newbrray, 02 January 2014 - 11:40.

[fluffy38]

That info is from a reliable source..

Of course they get the info they need to design the car.. but that is pretty much it.. maclaren are now regarded like villains at HPP and all that PR cr*p should really be ignored...

[bogi]

What is ''maclaren''?

[Newbrray]

What is ''maclaren''?

 

McLaren misspelt

[bogi]

McLaren misspelt

 

In almost every post...

[MclarenMircea]

@ATM_Andy

 

You said that you are close to Mclaren, PLEASE tell us only one thing. Has Mclaren received the type of information they needed for designing the car from Mercedes. Jonathan Neale, Martin Whitmarsh and Totto Wolff said that Mercedes has to give Mercedes the standard information they need for designing the car, and have to be the same specification if the engine which Mercedes factory team will have. I repeat, they don't need that core information as the philosophy of the engine, the nature of the internal workings, but the type of information to only fit the chassis and integrate it well into the car. Mclaren haters, would love a Mclaren sabotage, and they are very biased againts Mclaren, and they overate and overate this fear that some Mclaren fans have about Mercedes information. 

[PayasYouRace]

Chill out MclarenMircea. When ATM_Andy sees your post he'll probably do his best to respond to it. Repeating the same things over and over in bold isn't going to help.

 

Now to a certain extent a chassis builder can treat an engine as a black box, but in F1 if you want those last few hundredths, then it pays to know every single detail of how your engine works. McLaren will be at a slight disadvantage this year in that sense.

[ZionLH]

What is ''maclaren''?

 

What the hell do you think it means Ferrari ! People use abreviations all the time  . No need to attack his grammer.

[Zava]

 

@ATM_Andy

 

You said that you are close to Mclaren, PLEASE tell us only one thing...

 

you already posted this 22 minutes ago. this isn't a chat, don't spam if you don't get an immediate answer.

[Nicktendo86]

Chill out MclarenMircea. When ATM_Andy sees your post he'll probably do his best to respond to it. Repeating the same things over and over in bold isn't going to help.

 

Now to a certain extent a chassis builder can treat an engine as a black box, but in F1 if you want those last few hundredths, then it pays to know every single detail of how your engine works. McLaren will be at a slight disadvantage this year in that sense.

Just beat me to it, please don't do that it is really annoying. Andy will reply when he has time, is is busy strapping the rocket onto the 29 ;)

[Newbrray]

They got the info for designing the car and integration of the engine, from a car builder point of view that's enough, they don't need that kind of information that an engine builder need. And it would not be fair to get that kind of information,because Mercedes spent millions of it. As a Mclaren fan I wouldn't be proud of something like this, Honda usefull information of the engine. I only what a good engine and integrated into the car for 2014. From 2015 it's Honda's problem to make a good engine, and no need to steal information. The fit of the engine in the chassis and that's all that Mclaren need, and I'm on Mercedes side here: no engine information about the internal workings which might be usefull to Honda. Only quality of the engine, integration of the engine in the mp4-29 chassis, and Mclaren will have a good car. 

 

Let me give you a good example to try and compare this situation with another.

 

Look at redbull for instance, they and renault worked together (with redbull being the works team) to integrate the engine with the aero philosophy of the car with regards to blown diffusers, they went further with exotic engine mappings and will have had an input in the shape design to further integrate with the cars chassis due to their aero philosophy. then also think of the off throttle blowing and how this was part of the competitive edge redbull had.

 

There are teams using the renault engines but the design and integration with chassis will have been done based on the red bull aero philosophy and we can see what competitive advantage it gave them. whilst its not the be all and I don't doubt that McLaren will build a good car nevertheless but I am pretty sure even the folks at Woking will have some fears they have not gotten the full combo from Mercedes.

 

I guess its part and parcel of the advantage of being a works team, especially during a major reg change that involves the engine more than anything else

[ZionLH]

Let me give you a good example to try and compare this situation with another.

 

Look at redbull for instance, they and renault worked together (with redbull being the works team) to integrate the engine with the aero philosophy of the car with regards to blown diffusers, they went further with exotic engine mappings and will have had an input in the shape design to further integrate with the cars chassis due to their aero philosophy. then also think of the off throttle blowing and how this was part of the competitive edge redbull had.

 

There are teams using the renault engines but the design and integration with chassis will have been done based on the red bull aero philosophy and we can see what competitive advantage it gave them. whilst its not the be all and I don't doubt that McLaren will build a good car nevertheless but I am pretty sure even the folks at Woking will have some fears they have not gotten the full combo from Mercedes.

 

I guess its part and parcel of the advantage of being a works team, especially during a major reg change that involves the engine more than anything else

Nicely put brother 

[Lazy]

What is ''maclaren''?

 

 

McLaren misspelt

 

 

In almost every post...

 

 

What the hell do you think it means Ferrari ! People use abreviations all the time  . No need to attack his grammer.

Unlikely mistake from someone who claims to work for an F1 team tbh.

[Newbrray]

If we don't judge Mclaren's engineering team,on this year's car, but on what they did during the years, I really think they can do a car with a better aerodynamic than what Mercedes engineering team can produce. 

 

I don't disagree with you on that. I also don't doubt that Mercedes could come up with a better aero designed car as well, 

 

let me ask the question in another way, do you think McLaren will prefer to be in a postion as the works teams or a customer team ? if the answer is yes then why do you suppose that is, don't you think they see the benfit of being a works team and having detailed information of the things such as

 

Packaging -  Mercedes will have designed their car and engine to fit the packaging of their chassis and used their aero philosophy to help shape the directionof the engine design and vice versa

 

Power units details - The power units are now more complicated than ever before comprising of about 6 different units that makes up 1 whole power unit, this will have an effect on such things as weight of car, cooling requirements, aero philosophy etc. if McLaren was the works team they will have first hand knowledge of all these. Now am not saying Mercedes won't have provided the information, but they might only have divulged basic info they are required to and held back on some key things that could prove differential.

 

Fuel - don't forget the engine is being designed with the Petronas fuel in mind, whilst this might not be a big thing but since McLarren use Mobil there could be a few perfomance differentiators here

 

am sure there are loads of other things I have not mentioned.

 

point am trying to make is this - if McLaren can build a better car than Mercedes even though they are not the works team, then I can make an educated guess that they would have even built a faster car if they were the wors team. (there is a slight advantage in  being a works team)

 

not sure you get my point

[Arn]

I fear McLaren could have a very unreliable car this year given the complex powertrain and the integration of it.

[JRizzle86]

The only reply i have to these most recent posts is the following.

 

"Calm down dear"

[PayasYouRace]

Ok, I will not repeat anymore. But there are too more posts on the page and he maybe will not look on to older posts. 

 

The black dot that appears beside the thread name in the menu takes you to your last read post. I can't speak for Andy, but I always click there and I never miss a post.

[PARAZAR]

The black dot that appears beside the thread name in the menu takes you to your last read post. I can't speak for Andy, but I always click there and I never miss a post.

I didn't know that. Thanks for this info.

[Maustinsj]

What the hell do you think it means Ferrari ! People use abreviations all the time  . No need to attack his grammer.

 

I think you mean grammar 

 

Unless you mean don't attack his grandma?

Edited by Maustinsj, 02 January 2014 - 13:47.

[BillBald]

I'm already feeling depressed  From what you said, Mclaren will have no chance this year  

 

That's called the swingometer, and it's a very good sign.

[AlexS]

 

I'm already feeling depressed From what you said, Mclaren will have no chance this year

Well getting an engine from a works team is getting in a subaltern position.

That is the reason why they want Honda for 2015.

[Newbrray]

 What do you want to say by this? 

 

He means the mood on this thread usually swings  on an hourly basis from 

 

 Quiet confidence ----> Manic fear-----> orgasmic elation----->clinical depression-------->self loathing------->euphoric adulation---------suicidal case----------------->virtual beheading of team principal

 

 

and all this can happen in less than an hour during a race weekend

 

 

the bolded is what you stated you were feeling

 

 

 

 

welcome to the McLaren world

Edited by Newbrray, 02 January 2014 - 14:43.

[Exb]

Article explaining why work teeams will have an advantage in 2014...
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112000

[Zava]

They were getting an engine from Mercedes works team in 2010, 2011, 2012 and Mclaren made better cars than Mercedes. Only this faillure mp4-28,but if they would have developed and updated mp4-27 (Mclaren's 2012 car) like all teams did, Mclaren would have had a better car than Mercedes in all this years. Don't deny that, a continuation of a car that at the last three races in 2012 was faster that the Red Bull, and had two poles, two wins, and lost Abu Dhaby race when was leading the race, would surely be a better car than W04. Remember, and don't forget: Mp4-25 faster than W01

                                              Mp4-26 faster than W02

                                              Mp4-27 faster than W03

                                              Mp4-28 slower than W04 (and slower than W04 only because it was a total mess, if they would contined 

                                              same line as Red Bull and other team with refined 2012 cars, we would have had 

                                              a Mclaren - Mercedes Petronas 4-0

that is with an engine that was frozen in 2006, with mclaren as sole partner back then (or most important? don't remember if they already had other partners back then, but I guess they didn't, force india came later)

[Newbrray]

I don't believe what Ferrari can say. They are makeing this sort of statement every year, but in the end they are saved only by luck and Alonso's concistancy, because their car every year is a crap. All the teams are progressing with their cars during the season, and Ferrari is slipping from 1 or 2 to 4 as car performance. 

They have the weakest technical department in the top-teams. Every year, they say how good they will be that year, what advantages they have in favor, and in the end they have bad car.

This so much talked advantage must be neutralised by their aero-team. With Allison and De Beer it doesn't came the spring, their huge staff has low-quality, and they will mess again 2014 car. I'm waiting for the excuses, because that with the wind tunnel was vanished. Toyota Wind Tunnel is a good one, because mp4-27, the fastest car of the 2012 F1 season, was created and developed in Koln.

 

 

But so was the MP4-28

[Zava]

Mercedes took the team in november 2009. In all this years, they should have overtake Mclaren. From the end of 2009, Mclaren is a customer team, in 3 years, they should have better integrated their engine. But it was not the case, Mclaren was vastly superior to Mercedes. Towards the end of 2012, the difference was only increasing. The design of the Mercedes 2010, 2011, 2012 cars should have benefied by all the information that Mercedes could provide about the engine. The difference was that Mclaren much more aerodynamic adanced cars that what Merceds produced. I will remember all this statement in Australia about how good the Mercedes car will be. 

which part of "frozen in 2006" do you not understand?

[ZionLH]

They were getting an engine from Mercedes works team in 2010, 2011, 2012 and Mclaren made better cars than Mercedes. Only this faillure mp4-28,but if they would have developed and updated mp4-27 (Mclaren's 2012 car) like all teams did, Mclaren would have had a better car than Mercedes in all this years. Don't deny that, a continuation of a car that at the last three races in 2012 was faster that the Red Bull, and had two poles, two wins, and lost Abu Dhaby race when was leading the race, would surely be a better car than W04. Remember, and don't forget: Mp4-25 faster than W01

                                              Mp4-26 faster than W02

                                              Mp4-27 faster than W03

                                              Mp4-28 slower than W04 (and slower than W04 only because it was a total mess, if they would contined 

                                              same line as Red Bull and other team with refined 2012 cars, we would have had 

                                              a Mclaren - Mercedes Petronas 4-0

Zava explained it a couple of posts up.

 

I don't believe what Ferrari can say. They are makeing this sort of statement every year, but in the end they are saved only by luck and Alonso's concistancy, because their car every year is a crap. All the teams are progressing with their cars during the season, and Ferrari is slipping from 1 or 2 to 4 as car performance. 

They have the weakest technical department in the top-teams. Every year, they say how good they will be that year, what advantages they have in favor, and in the end they have bad car.

This so much talked advantage must be neutralised by their aero-team. With Allison and De Beer it doesn't came the spring, their huge staff has low-quality, and they will mess again 2014 car. I'm waiting for the excuses, because that with the wind tunnel was vanished. Toyota Wind Tunnel is a good one, because mp4-27,the fastest car of the 2012 F1 season, was created and developed in Koln. 

Yea and look where Lewis and Button finished in the WDC. Ferrari have been the closest to topple Redbull in the title fights not Mclaren. Ferrari also beat them in 2010,2012 and 2013 that was due mostly to alonso and his car's reliability . Massa as we know was to inconsistant but that combination still beat Mclaren overall and now they have got Kimi who has beaten Mclaren drivers 2 years in a row now. why do you think ferrari will be crap again , you have no idea whats going on behind there scenes.

Edited by ZionLH, 02 January 2014 - 15:13.

[fluffy38]

Ok, I have to apologise for typing too fast... it is indeed McLaren, the fact that i work in f1 has nothing to do with a spelling mistake..

 

however, i can try and relay some of the "not so" confidential rumours we hear flying around our offices/factories..

[Newbrray]

Ok, I have to apologise for typing too fast... it is indeed McLaren, the fact that i work in f1 has nothing to do with a spelling mistake..

 

however, i can try and relay some of the "not so" confidential rumours we hear flying around our offices/factories..

 

We are all ears

[Amphicar]

What the hell do you think it means Ferrari ! People use abreviations all the time  . No need to attack his grammer.

An "abbreviation" that is longer than the actual name? It isn't his grammar that is at issue - it is his spelling (and yours).

[fluffy38]

We are all ears

 

I'd rather answer specific questions ( at least try to)

[fluffy38]

engineering departments in F1 change so frequently that it is hard to compare a department against another .....

[ZionLH]

@ZionLH

 

In 2009, 2010, 2011 they finished second in the constructor's championship. The fact is that Alonso is a more complete driver Hamilton and a fastest driver than Button, take it straight, he is better than both of them. But Mclaren's car was faster than Ferrari's car in 2010, 2011, 2012 even if Alonso took the battle with Vettel more closely. Ferrari won only 6 races in 3 years (2011-2013) that means 1 race less than Mclaren took in only one year (in 2012 mp4-27 won 7 races). In this 3 years, and I put even the mp4-28, it's 13-6 for Mclaren. In 2010 it was parity 5-5, and 2009 2-1 for Mclaren. So in this Newey era we have a 20-12 in the battle Mclaren-Ferrari. It's almost double advantage for Mclaren. And that reflects the strenght of Mclaren's engineering department againts Ferrari's engineering department. The fact is that if Alonso would have been in a Mclaren car in all this years, he surely would have more championships.

 

Maybe 2010 because Lewis had his brain fade moments in Italy and Singapore. To 2011,2012 and 13 definitely Not .

 

An "abbreviation" that is longer than the actual name? It isn't his grammar that is at issue - it is his spelling (and yours).

 

well it meant the same bloody thing , people come from all sides of the globe. People spell differently no need to get personal just so you can place yourself on a higher pedestal.

Edited by ZionLH, 02 January 2014 - 15:39.

[DanardiF1]

I would'nt get too excited about 2014 for maclaren...
Ive heard from sources at HPP that they are getting the minimum info they need.. and knowing how important powertrain is....

2015 may be their year though ! Alonso ? + Honda

McLaren have a contract with Mercedes that presumably includes some guarantee of quality of service. If McLaren have reason to believe that they are getting inferior service for what they are paying, Merc would be in trouble legally. That the last year of the contract crossed over with a new power train is Mercedes' problem, not McLaren's.

[MclarenMircea]

McLaren have a contract with Mercedes that presumably includes some guarantee of quality of service. If McLaren have reason to believe that they are getting inferior service for what they are paying, Merc would be in trouble legally. That the last year of the contract crossed over with a new power train is Mercedes' problem, not McLaren's.

 Good statement. That's my opinion too.

I also deleted my posts unrelated to this year's car, I'm only waiting for ATM_Andy post. 

[fluffy38]

Of course, it will include "quality of service" but they will not get the same amount of support that the 3 other teams will get. This is fact from people i know at HPP

[Newbrray]

Of course, it will include "quality of service" but they will not get the same amount of support that the 3 other teams will get. This is fact from people i know at HPP

 

fluffy check your private message....just sent you a PM

[Szoelloe]

Of course, it will include "quality of service" but they will not get the same amount of support that the 3 other teams will get. This is fact from people i know at HPP

 

Ok.

[MclarenMircea]

Of course, it will include "quality of service" but they will not get the same amount of support that the 3 other teams will get. This is fact from people i know at HPP

That's bull ****. I don't believe something like this. Mclaren will not accept that. It will be a big scandal with Mercedes if that's the case. And Paddy Lowe's early release must be related to the information that Mclaren will get.

[mclarensmps]

Brawn GP was a customer team when they won their championship. In fact, their car wasn't even designed for the engine that was put in it.

 

Any prediction we make at this point in time is absolute speculation. 

[MclarenMircea]

Brawn GP was a customer team when they won their championship. In fact, their car wasn't even designed for the engine that was put in it.

 

Any prediction we make at this point in time is absolute speculation. 

 Leave him alone. Someone who writes "Maclaren" sever times can't be a trustful "source"

[mp4x]

I'm going to dissapoint you Mircea but if rumours are true, ferrari have come up with the best powertrain solution, just need to see if it is reliable ...

I wouldn't say that if I were you. You're using superlative terms to describe Ferrari power unit; do you have specific data including dimensions/ power/ torque/ operating temperature/ fuel consumption mechanism/ thermal efficiency/ reliability/ weight distribution/ material and many more factors of all the 2014 power units? I'm fed up with rumors like Mercedes is the most powerful; based on what? Only because they wanted wider rear tires? Ferrari is the lightest but compared to what? Do you know Ferrari engine weights X, Mercedes Y and Renault Z? Do you know Renault engine needs to be integrated to the chassis like A and Ferrari engine like B? If you knew all that information and I were a team owner I'd definitely hire you.

[DanardiF1]

Of course, it will include "quality of service" but they will not get the same amount of support that the 3 other teams will get. This is fact from people i know at HPP

 

If McLaren have reason to believe they are not getting what they are paying for, as the price is the same for them as it is Force India and Williams, Mercedes HPP will be in big trouble. This is not a question of denying Honda any inkling of prior information, this is about fulfillment of contractual obligations.

 

They may very well want to keep their cards close to their chest in the knowledge that McLaren are already working with Honda and any powertrain data is precious, but having the contract extended in 2014 was their choice as much as McLaren's. The situation is the same anytime someone changes engine suppliers, however important it is next year with the new turbos.

[DanardiF1]

 Leave him alone. Someone who writes "Maclaren" sever times can't be a trustful "source"

 

Unless they're talking about prams...

[BillBald]

If McLaren have reason to believe they are not getting what they are paying for, as the price is the same for them as it is Force India and Williams, Mercedes HPP will be in big trouble. This is not a question of denying Honda any inkling of prior information, this is about fulfillment of contractual obligations.

 

They may very well want to keep their cards close to their chest in the knowledge that McLaren are already working with Honda and any powertrain data is precious, but having the contract extended in 2014 was their choice as much as McLaren's. The situation is the same anytime someone changes engine suppliers, however important it is next year with the new turbos.

 

I think it would be very hard to prove that Merc were in breach of contract, if they simply withhold some of the info which the works team gets. I can imagine the Macca boys having to make a few last-minute changes eg to the cooling systems, but I still think they can make a good enough car.

 

What worries me is that sometimes they seem to be affected by the swingometer, just as much as people on this forum. In mid-2012 they panicked when their updates weren't working, and went radical with the 2013 car. When the resulting car was found to be deficient, they panicked again and started churning out masses of new parts - remember the posts last year about how everyone in the factory was doing a lot of overtime? Even at the time, it sounded like a bad idea.

 

It was only after they gave up on developing the 28 that it got back to the somewhat better form it had shown at the start of the season, in Malaysia and China. There's a lesson, if they can only manage to learn it. You don't get anywhere by running around in a panic. Progress can only be made by staying calm. It's absolutely OK for the fans to swing between elation and depression, but not the engineers!

[Iridescent]

As a customer team, you are always forced to 'fit' the car around the engine whereas it is easy to spot how advantageous it would be to develop both simultaneously, mainly for reliabilty but also performance related reasons (managing weight, aero, space, etc) Furthermore, you would of course receive info from the manufacturer but that is an overview and summary of all testing conducted; however, this is at times difficult to read since you're not the one conducting the test in the first place - it can lead to omissions of potential benefits. The timing also matters as you don't see months ahead in development, there is almost certainly an information time lag between works/non- works teams. Lastly, working a new engine faces you with a sterp learning curve. A works team would (indirectly because of chinese walls and all that) benefit from receiving on track feedback from multiple cars.Overall, having the engine in house is an advantage and with the rules overhaul, a substantial one. It should be felt over the first half of the season definitely.

Having said all that, I don't believe McLaren to be in a much worse position than any other customer team. Manufacturers are privy in gen, not claiming to know how Mercedes operates in particular, but they're not likely to differ much from others. Especially when we have Honda fishing for as much info as they can obtain, there are ways to try and conceal as much without violating any contractual obligations.

Finally though, on a brighter note, despite all the talk and hype, engines are not going to be the sole performance differentiator or silver bullet. An overall strong package would be the winner as always and undoubtedly McLaren have in the past proven capable of producing winners. So chill y'all

[Clatter]

I think it would be very hard to prove that Merc were in breach of contract, if they simply withhold some of the info which the works team gets. I can imagine the Macca boys having to make a few last-minute changes eg to the cooling systems, but I still think they can make a good enough car.

 

What worries me is that sometimes they seem to be affected by the swingometer, just as much as people on this forum. In mid-2012 they panicked when their updates weren't working, and went radical with the 2013 car. When the resulting car was found to be deficient, they panicked again and started churning out masses of new parts - remember the posts last year about how everyone in the factory was doing a lot of overtime? Even at the time, it sounded like a bad idea.

 

It was only after they gave up on developing the 28 that it got back to the somewhat better form it had shown at the start of the season, in Malaysia and China. There's a lesson, if they can only manage to learn it. You don't get anywhere by running around in a panic. Progress can only be made by staying calm. It's absolutely OK for the fans to swing between elation and depression, but not the engineers!

Wasn't that long ago that Merc were having cooling issues of their own. Were Merc holding info back from their own team?

[bogi]

Remarkably, it was revealed that the modifications made to the car to accommodate its Mercedes engine saw six inches removed from the rear end, severely compromising the car's center of gravity and by the time the team realized how changed the balance was, there was no time to commission a new design. Ross Brawn also admitted that there were fundamental problems with the car, stating that it was too heavy, and that some of the parts were not good for the car.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Brawn_BGP_001

 

 

Thats how important engine implementaion is today...