150 replies to this topic

[FPV GTHO]

Probably similar to the one which covers McLaren providing ECU's to Mercedes ;)

Why would it be similar?

The McLaren ECU is a control part going to everyone. If Mercedes get bad service off McLaren there's nobody else they can go to, so there's a lot of scrutiny on McLaren.

If McLaren aren't happy with Mercedes service for 2014 they couldve picked another supplier.

[mclarensmps]

Why would it be similar?

The McLaren ECU is a control part going to everyone. If Mercedes get bad service off McLaren there's nobody else they can go to, so there's a lot of scrutiny on McLaren.

If McLaren aren't happy with Mercedes service for 2014 they couldve picked another supplier.

I don't  believe McLaren hires soothsayers, though

[Tapz63]

I don't believe McLaren hires soothsayers, though

No I don't think they do either. But they knew with Mercedes back in the sport as a team, they would lose their works deal, and they played it smart by getting Honda back in for a new works deal. But by having this one year crossover into the new engine era, they will be giving Honda an advantage. So it is more than obvious that merc will do the minimum required to meet their contractual obligations, so as to minimise the advantages that Honda could possibly gain from information about the merc engine.

I don't believe that Mclaren would be so naive as to think that merc will do anything to help them in this final year of the contract. The question in my mind is how far Mclaren will go to unlock their secrets, rather than how Mercedes will try and protect them.

I support Mclaren and hope they do well, but as a Hamilton supporter, I would really like to see the merc at the front of the field with Lewis taking the title. Then in 2015 a merc vs Mclaren title fight would be epic

[Buttoneer]

This topic has been split from the MP4-29A thread as it discusses wider issues than that particular car, and includes information on how Mercedes are developing theirs.  The thread appears to be disjointed in parts because one member decided to delete their off topic posts which cannot be reinstated.  The quoted versions remain.  As does some quibbling over grammar and spelling.  Sorry.

[fluffy38]

I didnt think my comment deserved a topic of its own. I was telling mclaren fans to be cautious about their hopes for 2014, that is it.

[Buttoneer]

You said;

 

 

Ive heard from sources at HPP that they are getting the minimum info they need.. and knowing how important powertrain is....

 

It spawned a wider discussion which other people not interested in the MP4-29A might wish to contribute to.

 

But that's where this discussion ends.  If you have an issue with what I have done, please PM me and we can discuss offline.

[fluffy38]

I suppose you have a point about a wider discussion being opened... I didnt really expect that...

My initial post was never biased towards any teams or individuals on the forum... I was just posting a fact about the 2014 McLaren in the appropriate topic but it seems to have triggered a huge debate which is why we are here for..

[fluffy38]

F1engineer has summarized the situation pretty well.

 

And quoting, interviews by mercedes/mcLaren staff in the press is pointless.... it's PR rubbish...

[Lazy]

F1engineer has summarized the situation pretty well.

 

And quoting, interviews by mercedes/mcLaren staff in the press is pointless.... it's PR rubbish...

As reliable as you at minimum tbh.

[bogi]

It seems all of exiled Lotus engineers finished on this forum.

[P123]

Obviously the partnership is now different.  McLaren have gone from works team to a customer team, with the added headache for Mercedes that McLaren will be changing to Honda.  It's understandable that McLaren probably won't get to see certain things, but I don't see that affecting their competitiveness (the biggest issue may be the access Petronas have had in comparison to Mobil).  It's probably a bit of a disadvantage too for Mercedes in that they will no longer have the same degree of input from McLaren.

[Buttoneer]

In 2009, 2010 and 2011 the top two constructors were customers so there are clearly aspects of a car design or team management which can overcome whatever deficit you have by not getting direct influence in the engine design team.

 

I have no doubt that this year McLaren will suffer a little from the cooling relationship with Mercedes in some areas because of whatever information barriers they and Honda must put in place.  However, relationships in F1 have always been fluid and none of them will do anything which might put in jeopardy the chances of them working together again.

[bonjon1979a]

The years you mention are not really comparable. The v8 was frozen for years, the customer teams knew the engines well since I think 2006 when they were introduced. This year sees the biggest change ever with regards to power unit and the complexity of the new hybrid systems means that a customer team will surely be disadvantaged to a manufacturer.

[SpaMaster]

McLaren as a Mercedes customer would be as good as any non-works customer-manufacturer relationship, not any less advantageous and not any more advantageous. McLaren knows what they are getting into when they signed the deal.

[bonjon1979a]

I think it's a mistake to assume parity with other customer teams but then id say it would be a mistake to assume there wasn't. Time will tell, though to be honest the f1 workforce is so fluid I can't believe that knowledge will not disseminate fairly swiftly. I'm sure mclaren/honda will be poaching from brixworth as we speak

Edited by bonjon1979a, 06 January 2014 - 18:21.

[WitnessX]

But do McLaren need the same services as other customers?

McLaren have been building racing cars for over fifty years, their car division specialises in sports and racing cars with turbo engines and hybrid technology. Other divisions do electronics and applications.

They have the necessary tools and resources to design and implement the car with minimum outside involvement. If you take Force India they have a multi year agreement on the entire power-train (including transmission) and obviously do not have the same facilities as McLaren, so in their case they need any help they can get. No doubt this more cost and time effective for them being included in part of service package rather then expanding their current in-house operations.

I suspect that FI, Williams (Power Train but no gearbox) and McLaren all have different contracts with Mercedes which are tailored to their particular needs.

[SlickMick]

I believe the powertrain has yet to be delivered. If that's the case, does anyone know when that will be?

I ask as I read on another thread Mercedes are performing cooling tests on a car mock up of some kind.  

[f1rules]

Reading the statements on the FrontPage from Mercedes, please McLaren, beat them this year, with all their Money, tech directors and high profiled drivers, it would be the perfect goodbye present

[Owen]

"we expect them to be strong this year." Toto Wolff on McLaren

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112466

[Force Ten]

So despite all the kumbayah noises from official channels earlier this year it again seems that the cynical poster that said things are going to be very different this year between McLaren and Mercedes compared to all other Merc's customers was again right.

[Lazy]

So despite all the kumbayah noises from official channels earlier this year it again seems that the cynical poster that said things are going to be very different this year between McLaren and Mercedes compared to all other Merc's customers was again right.

What makes you say that?

[rodlamas]

So despite all the kumbayah noises from official channels earlier this year it again seems that the cynical poster that said things are going to be very different this year between McLaren and Mercedes compared to all other Merc's customers was again right.

Engines are the same, all of them homologated. I don't see any major issues happening.

[Force Ten]

Engines are the same, all of them homologated. I don't see any major issues happening.

Neither do I. There was again simply a case of a poster that appeared to have some inside info from behind the scenes and he was again utterly ridiculed for something that was both logical and appears to be confirmed a few weeks later, mostly because what he said was not something that fans wanted to hear.

 

What Merc will do for McLaren this year is about as little as contractually possible, when the season is underway. Probably.

Edited by Force Ten, 10 February 2014 - 11:44.

[Arn]

  

I watched that but where is part 2? 

[KiloWatt]

So despite all the kumbayah noises from official channels earlier this year it again seems that the cynical poster that said things are going to be very different this year between McLaren and Mercedes compared to all other Merc's customers was again right.

Forgive me if I defend the team I support here for a second. I agree that the relationship will very likely change - but in the sense that McLaren will be treated exactly the same as the other customers. I have no confirmation of this, but McLaren and Mercedes have long-is and mostly harmonious relationship. So it won't surprise me if they were friendly with each other and extended a helping hand above the strict terms of the contract (at least on the engine side, chassis side there is no such relationship between Brackly and Woking). Again I don't know this, but on account of the history, it wouldn't suprise me.

After the honda announcement, and with the new engines, I think McLaren will receive the same services as the other teams - nothing more, nothing less. But I see no reason whatsover why things should be "very different compared to the other customers".

[Lazy]

Neither do I. There was again simply a case of a poster that appeared to have some inside info from behind the scenes and he was again utterly ridiculed for something that was both logical and appears to be confirmed a few weeks later, mostly because what he said was not something that fans wanted to hear.

 

What Merc will do for McLaren this year is about as little as contractually possible, when the season is underway. Probably.

In what way confirmed?

[Mc_Silver]

I watched that but where is part 2? 

 

Unfortunately it's blocked by YouTube but don't worry I found a new one  

 

[Force Ten]

In what way confirmed?

It's hinted that the relationship is likely to change to avoid any sensitive data slippage over to Honda. That seems entirely reasonable from the point of view of Mercedes and if anyone really believes that this means the support will be exactly the same as it will be for other customer teams I have a bridge to sell them.

[Gorma]

I have no confirmation of this, but McLaren and Mercedes have long-is and mostly harmonious relationship.

Which end up with McLaren refusing to sell a bigger share, Mercedes buying Brawn, selling their share and McLaren switching engine supplier.

[femi]

Which end up with McLaren refusing to sell a bigger share, Mercedes buying Brawn, selling their share and McLaren switching engine supplier.

Absolutely

[JRizzle86]

"we expect them to be strong this year." Toto Wolff on McLaren

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112466

Ooh isn't that nice of Toto...

[mclarensmps]

So despite all the kumbayah noises from official channels earlier this year it again seems that the cynical poster that said things are going to be very different this year between McLaren and Mercedes compared to all other Merc's customers was again right.

 

Said person was inferring that Mercedes' relationship with McLaren would be cooler than that it had with other customers. This is where the argument lay.

 

Not too many people have suggested that the relationship will change when going from a works team to a customer team. Most people agreed that this would be the case, and that McLaren would be treated like any other customer. People on this board, for the most part agreed that this would be the case, and Toto's recent comments have just reaffirmed that thought.

 

The poster you mention insisted that the relationship between McLaren and Mercedes would be hostile, and there has been no suggestion of that thus far. We will see how that develops over the season. McLaren will not be getting inferior equipment, I am sure.

[ermo]

It's hinted that the relationship is likely to change to avoid any sensitive data slippage over to Honda. That seems entirely reasonable from the point of view of Mercedes and if anyone really believes that this means the support will be exactly the same as it will be for other customer teams I have a bridge to sell them.

 

One can't help but wonder how this will affect McLaren's relative competitiveness at the tail-end of the season, especially if they get embroiled in a title fight with, say, Mercedes and Ferrari.  On the one hand, Mercedes will derive value from McLaren finishing higher than Ferrari. On the other hand, Mercedes will obviously want to finish in front of McLaren.

 

It'll be 'interesting' to see how that dynamic plays out, if indeed McLaren and Mercedes have both managed to build a competitive car.

[KiloWatt]

It's hinted that the relationship is likely to change to avoid any sensitive data slippage over to Honda. That seems entirely reasonable from the point of view of Mercedes and if anyone really believes that this means the support will be exactly the same as it will be for other customer teams I have a bridge to sell them.

I have to Disagree. Mercedes, wont deny any info from McLaren to run their car. Why would they volunteer sensitive information to Williams and not McLaren? They absolutely wont volunteer any such info to anyone.

In which why do you think the service will differ between McLaren, Williams and Force India?

[oetzi]

Said person was inferring that Mercedes' relationship with McLaren would be cooler than that it had with other customers. This is where the argument lay.

 

Not too many people have suggested that the relationship will change when going from a works team to a customer team. Most people agreed that this would be the case, and that McLaren would be treated like any other customer. People on this board, for the most part agreed that this would be the case, and Toto's recent comments have just reaffirmed that thought.

 

The poster you mention insisted that the relationship between McLaren and Mercedes would be hostile, and there has been no suggestion of that thus far. We will see how that develops over the season. McLaren will not be getting inferior equipment, I am sure.

I think the main thing that will change in the relationship (aside from it being the final year of it being formal) is that McLaren can no longer lay obvious claim to being the senior partner in any aspect - is its F1 staff better? Car better? Engine better (oops)? Drivers better? Results last year better? Even history doesn't really favour McLaren. Unless the discussion is over who has a better Bond villain lair (and I'm not familiar with Stuttgart) then they're looking the junior partner, full stop. Maybe that's one of the reasons Ron came back (in name at least) - he's certainly the bigger noise as team boss (whatever they're calling them this year).

[DanardiF1]

Which end up with McLaren refusing to sell a bigger share, Mercedes buying Brawn, selling their share and McLaren switching engine supplier.

 

Mercedes wanted their own team, McLaren weren't prepared to sell a majority share to them, probably based on the fact that manufacturers can easily come and go in F1 and that wouldn't secure the future of McLaren. Also consider the formation of McLaren Automotive as motivation to keep the team an independant outfit.

 

McLaren switching to Honda again isn't a sign of a bad relationship with Mercedes, it's just that Honda can offer them a partnership similar to what they had with Merc that is now not possible with Merc having a works team on the grid.

 

Some people are too quick to read too much into things like this, without considering how customer engine relationships work anyway. McLaren will get exactly the same treatment as Williams and Force India. That is less than what they have enjoyed before, but it is still professional and supportive. The thing with customer teams is that if they want to they can buy the contract out at any time and go to someone else, taking all that information with them to the new supplier. That's exactly the same scenario as with McLaren going to Honda, only it's been a done deal much earlier than other changes in supplier have gone traditionally.

 

Consider the Toro Rosso deal with Renault. That was only announced in May last year, so presumably before that was arranged they were working at least in preliminary stages with Ferrari on their 2014 design program. Moving to Renault would mean all that precious information being transferred over, because you can't unlearn something no matter how small or opaque the information is. Ferrari as a customer engine provider know that this scenario is possible with customer teams so they restrict what they share with the team to just the essentials (still probably a large % of the total knowledge of the package), and to make sure there are no issues it's all nice and contractual, so both parties have something written down if one or other doesn't fulfill their end.

[oetzi]

Slightly OT, but re Ferrari and STR, do you not think that Ferrari might have been a little reticent when it comes to sharing info about their new engine's requirements with the junior team of a major competitor, and that Mercedes might not feel like offering them the spec to design a car around, and that's why they went to Renault?

 

In much the same way that Mercedes will offer what they're obliged to offer McLaren, but try to limit the information exchange as far as possible?

 

It's hardly unrealistic.

[Force Ten]

I have to Disagree. Mercedes, wont deny any info from McLaren to run their car. Why would they volunteer sensitive information to Williams and not McLaren? They absolutely wont volunteer any such info to anyone.

In which why do you think the service will differ between McLaren, Williams and Force India?

 

The pollyannaness sometimes is simply staggering. Have you ever witnessed first hand when a business partner turns to be a former business partner and then turns to be a direct competitor? The biggest enemies usually are previous partners turned to be business competitors. Two names, Adidas and Puma. Look them up. When your partner turns to be your direct and powerful competitor you will do FOR his benefit absolutely NOTHING. You may or may not actively hinder them but you sure as hell won't go the extra mile and you might even go the extra mile for ALL his competitors that are your other business partners just to single you out.

How it will be different? Mercedes will do for McLaren EXACTLY what the contract says they will have to do. EXACTLY. Not a single thing less as they would be in breach of a contract but also not an iota more. With the other teams they may do a little bit more when it loses them nothing and helps the other guys out with their competition with other engine manufacturers but McLaren... most probably they will have to figure those things out on their own.

 

There is a flipside to all of this and these are the people that go on and on harping about how McLaren will not even TRY to give any information about the Merc engines to Honda as they are so Honourable People ™ . This is even more Pollyanna, we are talking about sport that is called the piranha club and where teams employ professional photographers to steal ideas from the competitors as early as possible. I am rather confident McLaren is going to try to give EVERY SINGLE SECRET, every behavioral quirk, every observation they have about the engine performance and everything they can measure and be within bounds of their contract they can to Honda engineers if they think it will help being more competitive next year.

[DanardiF1]

Slightly OT, but re Ferrari and STR, do you not think that Ferrari might have been a little reticent when it comes to sharing info about their new engine's requirements with the junior team of a major competitor, and that Mercedes might not feel like offering them the spec to design a car around, and that's why they went to Renault?

 

In much the same way that Mercedes will offer what they're obliged to offer McLaren, but try to limit the information exchange as far as possible?

 

It's hardly unrealistic.

 

It's not unrealistic but it's hard to see even a customer engine supplier cut off their nose to spite their face. They want their customer to perform as well as possible with their product in the back. If Mercedes weren't in with a shout of the title but McLaren were, would the HPE guys at Brixworth not be proud that it was still their product powering a car to a title?

 

Of course the information exchange is limited compared to a works effort, but a customer engine now is no different to a works one. The support at the track will be the same as ever, they'll get the requisite number of engineers from Merc to run the cars as normal.

[DanardiF1]

The pollyannaness sometimes is simply staggering. Have you ever witnessed first hand when a business partner turns to be a former business partner and then turns to be a direct competitor? The biggest enemies usually are previous partners turned to be business competitors. Two names, Adidas and Puma. Look them up. When your partner turns to be your direct and powerful competitor you will do FOR his benefit absolutely NOTHING. You may or may not actively hinder them but you sure as hell won't go the extra mile and you might even go the extra mile for ALL his competitors that are your other business partners just to single you out.

How it will be different? Mercedes will do for McLaren EXACTLY what the contract says they will have to do. EXACTLY. Not a single thing less as they would be in breach of a contract but also not an iota more. With the other teams they may do a little bit more when it loses them nothing and helps the other guys out with their competition with other engine manufacturers but McLaren... most probably they will have to figure those things out on their own.

 

There is a flipside to all of this and these are the people that go on and on harping about how McLaren will not even TRY to give any information about the Merc engines to Honda as they are so Honourable People ™ . This is even more Pollyanna, we are talking about sport that is called the piranha club and where teams employ professional photographers to steal ideas from the competitors as early as possible. I am rather confident McLaren is going to try to give EVERY SINGLE SECRET, every behavioral quirk, every observation they have about the engine performance and everything they can measure and be within bounds of their contract they can to Honda engineers if they think it will help being more competitive next year.

 

This is every customer engine user ever. This is not a new situation.

[Force Ten]

This is every customer engine user ever. This is not a new situation.

And this is what always happens when relationships go bad. Things tend to get ugly.

 

To argue from both sides that no, these guys are nice, they have the best pink teddy bears and they give each other so many nice flowers is, shall we say, interesting.

There are tens of millions of dollars to win and lose by how these situations are played out and you think they are going to look for anything else than self interests? No wonder they thought communism would work out just fine.

[Force Ten]

It's not unrealistic but it's hard to see even a customer engine supplier cut off their nose to spite their face. They want their customer to perform as well as possible with their product in the back.

Not in every single scenario. It's the same as Flavio wanted every one of his drivers to do well in his cars when it has been rather well established, that no, he only wanted ONE of his drivers at the time to do well in his cars. Screw with the other one. First and foremost they want to beat every other team that is out there. That means beating McLaren and McLaren is the biggest threat using the same, arguably the best engine this year. So no, they think that FI and Williams are in the bag, what are we gonna do about McLaren now, not "hey hey, well, we messed up rear suspension, McLaren seems to have a good thing going on there, lets try to give them the WDC and WCC".

[oetzi]

It's not unrealistic but it's hard to see even a customer engine supplier cut off their nose to spite their face. They want their customer to perform as well as possible with their product in the back. If Mercedes weren't in with a shout of the title but McLaren were, would the HPE guys at Brixworth not be proud that it was still their product powering a car to a title?

 

Of course the information exchange is limited compared to a works effort, but a customer engine now is no different to a works one. The support at the track will be the same as ever, they'll get the requisite number of engineers from Merc to run the cars as normal.

Nobody ever applies your logic about 'wanting your engine to win' to Ferrari customer teams. But maybe Mercedes are happy to look second best to a company that is size-wise to them about what Marussia is to Ferrari. Who knows? The HPP guys will mainly care about how good their engine is, not the car it's sitting in. If it's the best engine out there and the car's wishbones collapse every race (just for instance), they've done their job (actually, that's one interesting difference between Mercedes and Ferrari in all this).

 

The support at the track probably won't be the same as ever - from year to year it will change, depending on contracts, relative performance between the teams, perceived levels of shared interest and many other things. Right now, I think McLaren will get a very low score on the helpfulness chart from Mercedes. They'll be relying on personal relationships and kindness to get the full story.

Edited by oetzi, 11 February 2014 - 00:12.

[SlickMick]

Okay I think I get it.

The one camp believes the relationship will be defined by small mindedness, spite, and guys with pink frilly dresses (?). The other camp believes it will be determined by professionalism, contracts and IPR. 

Mmmmmm.... let me think about that one.

[oetzi]

You missed me out. I'm going with self-interest 

[Force Ten]

You missed me out. I'm going with self-interest 

Pretty much sums it up.

[Lazy]

You missed me out. I'm going with self-interest 

 

 

Pretty much sums it up.

 

Yeah, but which type, enlightened self interest or myopic?

[Force Ten]

Yeah, but which type, enlightened self interest or myopic?

 

Your question is almost like "Poll: did you think 2013 season was the worst ever in Formula one history or the best ever?"

They are most certainly governed by a healthy dose of self interest with a good bit of basic human nature inserted. Is it myopic? Who the hell knows what did you mean by it in the first place.
And every time anybody starts waxing lyrical about what is supposed to be  "professional" I can only remind you a quote from a certain team principal to one of his drivers: "we are racing Alonso".

[Gorma]

http://en.wikipedia....i/Brawn_BGP_001

 

 

Thats how important engine implementaion is today...

Today power unit mounting points and sizes are specified in the rules.

[oetzi]

Yeah, but which type, enlightened self interest or myopic?

Pragmatic.