31 replies to this topic

[garagetinkerer]

The following is an opinion piece based on my observations of noises in Mercedes garage ... feel free to add to topic as you please

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112048

 

While on the surface the comment in the above article does look harmless, but i have suspected now for some time (for more than 18 months) that things at Mercedes aren't that peachy. Since they've become a full blown manufacturer, they've seen some success, but i was not alone who suspected that the board is contemplating cutting back their investments... which may boil down to two options: a) wind up race operations and continue as an engine supplier like before, or, b) Mercedes withdraw altogether from F1 (very unlikely but stranger things have happened). Whether Mercedes will continue and how is more likely dependent on level of success they achieve. 2013 was a very good campaign, and i wonder if Wolff didn't get his rear end served to him in a platter, as it seemed that Mercedes stopped the development at the wrong point in the season. While Wolff has made noises to the contrary, it seemed plain to me that RBR enjoyed advantages of developing their car, while their opponents sat on their hands. Now, this may come to bite them on their rear end this year, but all indications are, it will not be because of aero (powerplants and recovery systems is what it boils down to this year), as aero evolves and some elements will be drawn into the 2014 car (which should be revealed soon i guess... January, yay!). Mercedes board would certainly have not been amused, as even though they may have budgets, but who suffers fools and for how long? They let go one of their long term employee who did a lot for Mercedes in motorsports, for Wolff. So while 2013 on the whole was positive and should have been better in general, team Mercedes still has to deliver on the track. If not championships (i stress the plural bit here...), i wodner how long before Mercedes board will get disinterested in funding the entire operation. Who thought Honda would leave after almost a decade like they did? Who thought BMW would leave? Who thought Toyota would leave? Hard questions and in business sometimes there are tough choices that are made. Will there be a tough one made at Mercedes? What do you fellow fans think?

 

cheers!

Edited by garagetinkerer, 09 January 2014 - 09:10.

[FullThrottleF1]

Mercedes stated they are contracted to F1 until 2020.

[garagetinkerer]

Mercedes stated they are contracted to F1 until 2020.

It is but an agreement. Agreements are made and broken sometimes in agreement I would personally love for Mercedes to stick around. However, the signs i see are some thing familiar that i saw to various degrees at other manufacturers who left the sport before. This is why the thread...

 

cheers!

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

If BMW didn't feel their investment in F1 was worth it, then Mercedes are not immune to that feeling either.

 

I suspect though, that if they pull out as a full works team they will continue as an engine supplier.

 

In recent years their AMG sporting division for road cars has expanded tremendously and F1 is a good platform to advertise that product. It will resonate with the youth more (previously, AMG had been seen as middle age man etc until recently with the C63 AMG, Black Series models etc) so as long as AMG sells and grows then Mercedes will a presence in Formula One. 

 

I also think that until recently, (5-6 years) BMW M-Power products (M3, M5, M6 etc) were seen above the likes of AMG products; much sharper, responsive, better looking and more 'cool' etc. That also probably played a role in BMW's decision to withdraw from F1; lack of on track success could hamper product sales. After all, how can the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' be seen as that when the success on track is not there; especially in the biggest arena that is F1?

 

That is just my opinion though.

[sopa]

Mercedes stated they are contracted to F1 until 2020.

 

This doesn't mean anything. In 2009 it was claimed Toyota had signed Concorde Agreement till 2012, yet they pulled out. There were even rumours they were going to get fined for that, but it was somehow solved by Toyota giving up its grid slot to (BMW) Sauber.

[P123]

So long as they get Bernie money they will be there, but it's never been a 100% Mercedes owned team.  Abaar held a stake which was sold on to Lauda and wolff.

[Nonesuch]

Who knows, really? How big would the impact of a withdrawal be on Mercedes' image? Can they justify the spending?

I've always had the impression that Mercedes' board was divided on the F1 adventure, but that the Brawn buy-out was too good an opportunity to miss. Now, people watching F1 more closely would have noticed that Brawn's form towards the end of the 2009 season was starting to lose its edge, and that there hadn't been a lot of money to invest in 2010. Nevertheless, Mercedes is now one of the top three/four teams and has been able to win races again. That's not bad.

 

But I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes' continued failure to win the F1 championships will at some point give those opposed to the idea more weight in the internal discussions. How many years will they want to keep trying? Two, three, four? Impossible to say.

[Reinmuster]

...

 

But I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes' continued failure to win the F1 championships will at some point give those opposed to the idea more weight in the internal discussions. How many years will they want to keep trying? Two, three, four? Impossible to say.

 

They've said they will commit until year 2020 so they have 7 years to do that. 

[SirDennis]

They may lose the income from supplying power units to Force India if the Kingfisher rumours are correct....

Edited by SirDennis, 09 January 2014 - 10:10.

[Rinehart]

I think Mercedes are on fairly sure ground for a few years yet. Unlike BMW or Toyota they have made it to the top table, they have a top driver, top engineer, they have a far better deal from F1 (CA). With the amount they have spent its like they are past the point of no return now, they have to win the WDC before they consider leaving. 

[Newbrray]

I think Mercedes are on fairly sure ground for a few years yet. Unlike BMW or Toyota they have made it to the top table, they have a top driver, top engineer, they have a far better deal from F1 (CA). With the amount they have spent its like they are past the point of no return now, they have to win the WDC  WCC before they consider leaving. 

 

Minor tweak

[Jejking]

Jep, they're in a learning curve. After Schumacher hesitated to continue in the sport, some bright minds took their opportunity to bring in Lewis Hamilton who is widely regarded as 'a driver who can make the difference' and take it to Vettel. Schumacher always had his age working against him, but bringing in a 27-year old would ensure the interest of the mother company for at least a couple of more years. Lauda anticipated that well so I think at least until 2016 everything is safe and dandy, as long as Merc doesn't cock it all up too badly with the new regulations.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

given all the people they brought in last year (including Lewis) and the amount they are spending on F1, it seems rather daft to think that they are doing anything other than making MORE commitment to F1...

[Rinehart]

Minor tweak

 

Actually, I purposely put WDC. My belief for about a decade now is that the plaudits and prize money that the constructors get for winning the WCC is dwarfed by the value to the brand of powering a driver to the WDC which gains WAY more global coverage. But slightly off topic.

[noikeee]

So last year they brought in Hamilton, Paddy Lowe and Wolff, improved their performance in a surprising way to come 2nd in the constructors, only to intend to leave now? Doesn't compute.

 

If they really really suck under the new regulations, maybe. I think any decision on that front will be hugely dependent on how competitive they are this year. It's a big dice roll.

[stanga]

If BMW didn't feel their investment in F1 was worth it, then Mercedes are not immune to that feeling either.

 

I suspect though, that if they pull out as a full works team they will continue as an engine supplier.

 

In recent years their AMG sporting division for road cars has expanded tremendously and F1 is a good platform to advertise that product. It will resonate with the youth more (previously, AMG had been seen as middle age man etc until recently with the C63 AMG, Black Series models etc) so as long as AMG sells and grows then Mercedes will a presence in Formula One. 

 

I also think that until recently, (5-6 years) BMW M-Power products (M3, M5, M6 etc) were seen above the likes of AMG products; much sharper, responsive, better looking and more 'cool' etc. That also probably played a role in BMW's decision to withdraw from F1; lack of on track success could hamper product sales. After all, how can the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' be seen as that when the success on track is not there; especially in the biggest arena that is F1?

 

That is just my opinion though.

 

Mercedes has rebranded to move to a younger demographic. That great ad with Tinnie Tempah is an example of this - strong resonances with bringing Hamilton on board too.

 

If I had the money, I'd probably seriously look at an AMG special. 

[sennafan24]

Welcome back garage 

 

Anyway this is my read

 

I think Mercedes are the most long-term thinking team on the grid, they have had the long term goal of 2014 for quite some time. There was a report with a quote from Wolff statung that by the mid stage of 2013, they wanted half their workforce working on the 2014 car. The fact they went out there way to get Lewis as well, speaks volumes. Remember it was Mercedes who sent Lauda after Lewis, and it worked.

 

Lewis was on top of his form when Lewis and Lauda had that meeting, at that very time when Lewis's gearbox expired at Singapore 2012 I would say Lewis was the hottest talent in F1, the fact that they managed to snag such a prospect speaks volumes of their long term aims, as Lewis could have easily stayed put. Mercedes are serious at success, the way they shifted around staff in 2013 was something I admire, I believe Ferrari have not mix things up enough over the past 2 years, which is a prime reason why RB have performed better than them.

 

If you keep the same system, you have to expect the same results. If you are RB, fair enough, do not fix would is not broken. Ferrari and Merc are not where they want to be (which is where RB are right now) and have to try radical things to get to the top.

 

However, if this ambitious and no doubt costly new approach fails in 2014, then yes I would not be shocked if Mercedes do pull out. If they do falter, it will be interesting to see who gets the blame, I have a feeling the drivers could be the scapegoats. If that happens, expect a adjusted driver line up, if that fails, than yes maybe they will pull out

Either way, it is a very interesting story to follow. If Lewis wins the WDC in 2014, which I think he has a excellent chance of from what I hear about Mercedes 2014 car then everything will have gone to plan.

[Jackmancer]

The question isn't whether Mercedes will leave the sport or not, fully or partly. It's inevitable and some day it will happen. The question is rather; how soon? I don't expect them to within the next five years, but 2020 is a long time away. BMW Sauber looked very strong and solid, but one bad season and their budget stopped.

[alframsey]

Do I think Merc will remain in F1 as a full manufacturer forever? No, of that there is no question imo. Will they be there for at least another 5 years? I'd say so, unless things go drastically wrong.

[Jamiednm]

If BMW didn't feel their investment in F1 was worth it, then Mercedes are not immune to that feeling either.

 

I suspect though, that if they pull out as a full works team they will continue as an engine supplier.

 

In recent years their AMG sporting division for road cars has expanded tremendously and F1 is a good platform to advertise that product. It will resonate with the youth more (previously, AMG had been seen as middle age man etc until recently with the C63 AMG, Black Series models etc) so as long as AMG sells and grows then Mercedes will a presence in Formula One. 

 

I also think that until recently, (5-6 years) BMW M-Power products (M3, M5, M6 etc) were seen above the likes of AMG products; much sharper, responsive, better looking and more 'cool' etc. That also probably played a role in BMW's decision to withdraw from F1; lack of on track success could hamper product sales. After all, how can the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' be seen as that when the success on track is not there; especially in the biggest arena that is F1?

 

That is just my opinion though.

 

Exactly. The A45 AMG in particular is aimed at a much younger market than Mercedes traditionally target. Their advertising for the A Class and the CLA (and AMG versions) contribute to this and I think their presence as an F1 works team, with Lewis Hamilton driving for them is very much part of the same strategy of creating brand awareness amongst 20 and 30 somethings who wold traditionally lean towards BMW and Audi. I'm sure they'll give that strategy chance to prove itself.

[JHSingo]

Mercedes stated they are contracted to F1 until 2020.

 

Means nothing. There have been plenty of manufacturers in the past to say they're staying in the sport, only to quit not long after. Take BMW in 2009, for instance. They were one of the teams to cast their alliance to that breakaway series, yet only a couple of months later said they were withdrawing from F1 completely.

 

If they don't win one of both championships in the next two or three years, yes, I can see Mercedes quitting. They'll probably still remain an engine supplier though, like how Renault operates these days.

[metz]

Only a change in Bernie's deal would make them leave.

Lewis and the car and the team have nothing to do with it.

The CA changes are also the reasons the other manufacturers left.

 

Seriously, Mercedes is about to do great things in the next few years.

Leaving now would be the furthest on their mind.

[Jimisgod]

Exactly. The A45 AMG in particular is aimed at a much younger market than Mercedes traditionally target. Their advertising for the A Class and the CLA (and AMG versions) contribute to this and I think their presence as an F1 works team, with Lewis Hamilton driving for them is very much part of the same strategy of creating brand awareness amongst 20 and 30 somethings who wold traditionally lean towards BMW and Audi. I'm sure they'll give that strategy chance to prove itself.

The only places on earth 20 somethings have that kind of cash are Asia and the Gulf. If they wanted the European 20 something market they'd be selling rebadged models from 1991.

That said, maybe F1 is seen as a way to break into these new markets.

[Jamiednm]

The only places on earth 20 somethings have that kind of cash are Asia and the Gulf. If they wanted the European 20 something market they'd be selling rebadged models from 1991.

That said, maybe F1 is seen as a way to break into these new markets.

 

No, rich 20 to 30 year olds exist in Europe as well.

[InSearchOfThe]

They've invested in the new cars so I believe in Fullthrottlef1's post. They're one of the "players" not an also ran team. You hear things about the Mercedes board getting nervous, and the pressure is always there. That's what F1 is all about. Being a global player. As long as they're not getting totally embarassed they will stay.

[stanga]

The only places on earth 20 somethings have that kind of cash are Asia and the Gulf. If they wanted the European 20 something market they'd be selling rebadged models from 1991.

That said, maybe F1 is seen as a way to break into these new markets.

 

Where do you think the growth is in luxury motors? You only have to look at the growth segments in Jaguar-Land Rover's numbers.

[garagetinkerer]

Welcome back garage 

 

Anyway this is my read

 

I think Mercedes are the most long-term thinking team on the grid, they have had the long term goal of 2014 for quite some time. There was a report with a quote from Wolff statung that by the mid stage of 2013, they wanted half their workforce working on the 2014 car. The fact they went out there way to get Lewis as well, speaks volumes. Remember it was Mercedes who sent Lauda after Lewis, and it worked.

 

Lewis was on top of his form when Lewis and Lauda had that meeting, at that very time when Lewis's gearbox expired at Singapore 2012 I would say Lewis was the hottest talent in F1, the fact that they managed to snag such a prospect speaks volumes of their long term aims, as Lewis could have easily stayed put. Mercedes are serious at success, the way they shifted around staff in 2013 was something I admire, I believe Ferrari have not mix things up enough over the past 2 years, which is a prime reason why RB have performed better than them.

 

If you keep the same system, you have to expect the same results. If you are RB, fair enough, do not fix would is not broken. Ferrari and Merc are not where they want to be (which is where RB are right now) and have to try radical things to get to the top.

 

However, if this ambitious and no doubt costly new approach fails in 2014, then yes I would not be shocked if Mercedes do pull out. If they do falter, it will be interesting to see who gets the blame, I have a feeling the drivers could be the scapegoats. If that happens, expect a adjusted driver line up, if that fails, than yes maybe they will pull out

Either way, it is a very interesting story to follow. If Lewis wins the WDC in 2014, which I think he has a excellent chance of from what I hear about Mercedes 2014 car then everything will have gone to plan.

 

Trouble is, F1 is not too important for Mercedes, but they can and very well could not only limit their involvement, worse still can withdraw. Renault left too, and they remain however to be an engine supplier though.and given the mixed signals that keep coming from their garage, it was something i thought i'd wonder aloud about, Even last year, there were rumours of Mercedes potentially withdrawing in 2-3 odd years or so. While the results were pretty good last year, there are still mixed signals that i read.

 

Long term vision? It is questionable to sugget that, as that implies the other teams are sitting on their hands... Ferrari are furious about lack of success in recent years, and they have Rory Byrne (a familiar name, isn't he) working on 2014 car since mid of 2012. McLaren messed it up bigtime last year, only trying to reinvent the wheel and i'm pretty sure they have competent engineers looking up what went on with the car. RBR is not going to be sitting still either, even though they've enjoyed continued success now for 4 years in a row. Mercedes may have the best powerplant and recovery systems, but that is just a part of the car, mind you very significant, but just a part of tbe car. I feel Mercedes may or may not attain the success it so desires, but my musings are about what happens if the results are not so favourable as last year (worst case scenario). Given the previous ramblings, it still feels all too tentative at Mercedes for what i can tell. I could be wrong, and boy i love manufacturers in the sport, so i hope i'm wrong... but i guess we will find out won't we?

 

cheers!

 

i had been hitting tech sites lately what with the launch of a new processor and new technology to speed up computer graphics coming along with it, and so many other technological improvements for that matter I had forgotten how much joy that gave me too I posted in the thread about Schumacher, but i guess i haven't been posting much. Off season i guess

Edited by garagetinkerer, 09 January 2014 - 17:17.

[SpaMaster]

If the Mercedes board want to cut down its investments, there are a few other ways. One is to bring in more sponsors, preferably bigger sponsorships. To a certain extent, this will be a function of winning championships and establishing itself as a force like Red Bull and Ferrari. Another way is F1 to have cost cap. Going from $350 million/year to $200 million/year would be quite a reduction in investment, isn't it?

[garagetinkerer]

If the Mercedes board want to cut down its investments, there are a few other ways. One is to bring in more sponsors, preferably bigger sponsorships. To a certain extent, this will be a function of winning championships and establishing itself as a force like Red Bull and Ferrari. Another way is F1 to have cost cap. Going from $350 million/year to $200 million/year would be quite a reduction in investment, isn't it?

They spend a lot of the money you suggest developing engines alone. Now with the recovery systems being so important and newer engine specs, i'd think the costs have only gone up?

[SpaMaster]

^ The money that I mentioned comes from the engine freeze era. So a lot of that money relates to chassis development. So I think there is a lot of money that could be saved on the chassis front. I don't think that when the Merccedes board discussed reduction in its cost of involvement two years back, it was with engine development in mind. Anyway, they have been engine providers for a long time. So I don't think that is the one that pinches them.

[chipmcdonald]

It really depends on the economy in 2014, does it not?

 

The idea that manufacturers will always, automatically be in F1 is not a given.  At some point stockholders are going to ask questions, at some point corporations have to give answers.

 

"Forecast not good".  I can easily see a 2015 that is just Ferrari as a works team, Mercedes and Renault supplying engines, possibly Honda.  The prestige of LeMans is paying off for Audi and Toyota possibly as well as F1 at this point and for a whole lot less, and that's attracted Porsche.  F1 should be the first attraction for all manufacturers, that's it's problem - Ford doesn't care, Audi is fine with LMP, Porsche doesn't want any part of it, BMW, Toyota got out...  if Formula One is supposed to be the pinnacle of not just drivers but the cars themselves, the manufacturers sure don't seem to care about the public's persception of that notion.

 

 Make F1 run stock blocks, con rods/cranks, so the manufacturer's can advertise that... That would be great.  "This is our road car model that features the Formula One motor".  That would have "road car relevance".  Specialized IC motors just for F1 races is a sketchy sell to stockholders, I would think.  Paddle shifters aren't really "F1 technology in road cars" from a sales standpoint, and somehow they've got to turn that around.

[HP]

Actually, I purposely put WDC. My belief for about a decade now is that the plaudits and prize money that the constructors get for winning the WCC is dwarfed by the value to the brand of powering a driver to the WDC which gains WAY more global coverage. But slightly off topic.

Yes and no. IMO Mercedes needs to raise their own driver.

 

Who seemed to display greater support for M.Schumacher these days? Ferrari. Given the history and results that is no coincidence. Still seems that MS most loyal fans are those from his Ferrari times. Never mind that Mercedes helped Schumacher greatly in his career before F1.

 

After WWII they talked about Mercedes drivers vs. {insert team} drivers. If you ask me, the PR guys don't do a good job so far at Mercedes. If Hamilton wins a WDC with Mercedes, I'd not be surprised that for many Lewis is still associated with McLaren (more precisely Vodafone-Mercedes-McLaren), you get the idea.

 

And I think that will continue as long as Mercedes buys in great talent, but that has done some extraordinary exploits with a previous team. Mercedes used to have great upcoming talents. But these days, which modern driver is immediately linked to Mercedes? So IMO they need to do some serious rethinking about their current PR direction and team building.