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Massa suspects Alonso knew about crashgate..


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#51 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:26

If you look at fuel strategies from 2007-2008, even for street circuits, all drivers from 11th downwards usually filled tanks with as much fuel as possible to have a 1-stop-strategy, as opposed to 2-stoppers. Why? Because SC may not only appear on lap15, but also lap45, right before the two-stoppers window and AFTER the pitstop of single-stoppers.

 

It might do, but if the only chance of winning is for the SC to turn up before lap 15, then you might max your strategy for that.  At the time presumably Renault were not as financially stretched as now, or as much as a team like (say) Sauber would have been at the time, for whom a safe 7th would indeed have been valuable.

 

And if there's going to be a shemozzle it's more likely to take place when the cars are close to each other, i.e. early.  OK, a later SC would have ruined Alonso's strategy, but it didn't happen, so in that sense, which was a pure gamble, they rolled the bones and came up sevens.



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#52 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:31

Obviously Massa couldn't speak his mind while employed at Ferrari with Alonso as his teammate. Now that he's no longer there he can finally say what he's always felt.

 

Alonso almost had to know. It wouldn't have worked without his knowledge through the snake Braitore. Desperate people do desperate things..

 

FA's driving aside, he's someone who's word I can never trust.

 

Felipe may be bitter, but who wouldn't be? It's probably his only shot at a title and he knows it.

 

 

 



#53 redreni

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:31

I don't think it's that hard a sell.  "Fernando, you are so far back on the grid that the only chance of a win is to gamble on an early safety car.  Singapore's a street circuit, it's maybe 50/50 that there will be one early doors, so it's worth doing a Hail Mary and hope for an early SC.  We've nothing to lose; gambling on getting wither a win or a 15th, or playing safe and guaranteeing no more than a 7th."

 

I'd've gone for it.

 

But it isn't 50/50 or anything like it that you'll get a SC in the first 6 laps of a street race. If it was, more people would have tried that strategy. It was a strategy that only appealed to one team, and as it turns out that was only because they were planning on making sure there was a SC. Does this not tell you something?



#54 sopa

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:33

In conspiracy,less people knowing what really is happening is better,over the years i think Alonso maybe didn't knew what REALLY was going on.

 

But he is one of the greatest,very smart and competitive...he knew his strategy was a pure gamble,but in his situation worthy the risk IF your boss and team responsibles want to risk no points to gain a victory.

 

The way i rate Alonso,when everything got right and was his team mate in the crash.... he realised what happened.

 

But there is almost no saint in the multiple wdc hall of fame,we will not know the for sure what is the truth.

 

You are right that LESS people knowing about the stuff is always important. However, Alonso was an integral part of the plan. They needed to adjust his personal race strategy according to the conspiracy.

 

If we recall the fans' mood after the race, some immediately reacted to it "oh this accident was a bit too much of a coincidence!" I mean even if outsiders have such reaction, what about insiders?

 

The difference is that nobody outside the team knew about it beforehand, because you haven't seen yet, what is going on. However, some people inside the team knew, what their race strategy was going to be like. And if you are a human with brain, you always have questions and thoughts, why this or why that. Like people after the race - "why pitstop on lap X, why crash on lap X. Coincidence?" Such questions/reactions are absolutely human.



#55 prty

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:34

By the way:

 

http://forums.autosp...r-got-involved/

 

http://esporte.uol.c...a-de-massa.jhtm (original article)
http://forum.planet-...mp;#msg_2605211 (translation)

Q: What was it like to deal with Briatore and Fernando Alonso inside Renault?

NP: Between me and Alonso, it was normal, no problems, we were friends… Of course, he is a smart driver and would never open the door to me, but when I needed, he talked to me, he was never arrogant. Briatore has a different character, it is harder to deal with him, a man who loves to scream, so, I did my job there and didn’t get much involved.

Q: And you never blamed Alonso in this whole saga…

NP: I think it wasn’t his fault, I mean, if it was, if he asked, I don’t know anything. But I think it is unlikely, the team wanted to bring a result to keep him on the team for one more year because he wanted out, the car was bad, And Alonso, you know how it is with him, if he doesn’t have a good car, he want to get out after the best equipment. But I think he never got involved.



#56 Mauseri

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:35

If you look at fuel strategies from 2007-2008, even for street circuits, all drivers from 11th downwards usually filled tanks with as much fuel as possible to have a 1-stop-strategy, as opposed to 2-stoppers. Why? Because SC may not only appear on lap15, but also lap45, right before the two-stoppers window and AFTER the pitstop of single-stoppers.

 

To race with full fuel load and make only 1 pitstop was the best bet for drivers to capitalize on those safety car rules, which throws everything out of the window. Recall Piquet from 2008 Germany. He made a single stop mid-race, after that a safety car appeared, and he was at the front.

Well, at that time I remember thinking it was a smart move for Alonso to be on different strategy than the others. The difficulty of overtaking on the track meant it is better to be on a different strategy window if you want to make progress. And if the strategy car came in a suitable moment even a win would be possible. It was funny to find out it indeed did come because of his teammate.


Edited by Mauseri, 09 January 2014 - 14:35.


#57 Wanderer

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:48

I don't see the point why Felipe brings it up again. For sure it probably cost Felipe's championship but you can't change these things anymore.

 

It's his first chance in years, he obviously had to hold back while at Ferrari with Alonso. Now he can speak more freely about things. In another interview he was quite complimentary towards Vettel, saying that his achievements are without doubt down to his talent and that he deserves everything he won. 


Edited by Wanderer, 09 January 2014 - 14:53.


#58 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 14:51

But it isn't 50/50 or anything like it that you'll get a SC in the first 6 laps of a street race. If it was, more people would have tried that strategy. It was a strategy that only appealed to one team, and as it turns out that was only because they were planning on making sure there was a SC. Does this not tell you something?

 

Yes.  Two things.  One, Renault could afford to throw away some safe points in pursuit of some big points.  Probably uniquely amongst leading teams.  Two, Renault had a car that had race-winning pace (as was proved next time out).  Certainly uniquely amongst the midfield teams.  They just needed that leg-up to the front.  I doubt Toro Rosso could have made that strategy work.

 

I'm not saying Alonso knew nothing, mind; I'm saying that it's at least plausible that he knew nothing and was persuaded to go along with a leftfield strategy.  After all, had someone else crashed before then, it would have worked, no questions asked.



#59 Hollow

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:03

Some people don't have a clue, his behavior after the race tells you everything you need to know. But for that you've got to understand human psychology... Also, the FIA wanted to incriminate him but they couldn't.



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#60 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:11

So, Massa has shut up all these while because he was in Ferrari and was okay to keep mum all these while? Sorry, I don't see how he can be viewed right about this.

 

As for the race result, FIA should have nullified that race win retrospectively as soon the case was proved.



#61 chipmcdonald

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:14

Pretty sad for Felipe. He sounds very bitter.  I guess after 4 years together, his relationship with Fernando isn't that close.

 

 He lost the world championship.

 

 While I think Lewis is the fastest guy on the grid, and deserved to win based on the outcome of the situation legally, I have to say it's always rubbed me the wrong way that Massa gets derided as a second string driver when he effectively was, for all intents and purposes, a championship winner - if but for a very short period of time.

 

Conversely, while I think Alonso is obviously one of the greats, he has also benefitted historically from a couple of "things" - Crashgate, and probably two years of the inertial damper (and some "tricky" Michelin contact patches).   He got the best of Alonso in qualifying, and while Kimi was probably in his "I don't care anymore" mode - he outperformed him.

 

 I hope that Massa stays above board if Symonds comes up with something "more than clever".  I'd like to think there are some in the paddock who still are not of the "win on paper at all costs" ilk.



#62 sopa

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:16

As for the race result, FIA should have nullified that race win retrospectively as soon the case was proved.

 

Isn't it in FIA's regulations that once the FIA gala in December is over, the results have been cemented. It is impossible to change anything, regardless of how much cheating evidence you'll find in the future.

 

It is different to many other sports, who still DQ people retrospectively. Like UCI stripping Lance Armstrong of TdF titles a decade later retrospectively. But in FIA events they don't do like that.

 

So basically if you want to cheat and cheat a lot, make sure you can hide it under the carpet till FIA gala the same year. Doesn't matter, what happens later.;)

 

However, it also forces FIA to act immediately if they see something suspicious going on. And I think they were too lenient in the Renault Singapore case, believing that "these things happen" and "it was normal racing".


Edited by sopa, 09 January 2014 - 15:19.


#63 03011969

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:22

Who doesn't think that Alonso knew??

Why not have an opinion poll for commenters to register their beliefs on something speculative based on guesswork, supposition, biases etc?



#64 Fastcake

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:32

Isn't it in FIA's regulations that once the FIA gala in December is over, the results have been cemented. It is impossible to change anything, regardless of how much cheating evidence you'll find in the future.

It is different to many other sports, who still DQ people retrospectively. Like UCI stripping Lance Armstrong of TdF titles a decade later retrospectively. But in FIA events they don't do like that.

So basically if you want to cheat and cheat a lot, make sure you can hide it under the carpet till FIA gala the same year. Doesn't matter, what happens later.;)

However, it also forces FIA to act immediately if they see something suspicious going on. And I think they were too lenient in the Renault Singapore case, believing that "these things happen" and "it was normal racing".


There's nothing stopping the FIA from changing those regulations, if there is a rule preventing them from acting.

Presumably they did not want to attract any more bad publicity, especially as voiding the win wouldn't have changed the championship order anyway.

#65 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:37

Interesting incidentally looking back at the autosport live for the race here.  Some relevant points is that there was a chance of rain, which could have been sold as making an SC a possibility, Alonso told Spanish telly he was taking a risk by starting light to try to pass a load of cars, and at 12.29ff there was total surprise that Piquet binned it. 



#66 rodlamas

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:40

Unfortunately Massa pins the single reason for him losing the WDC on that particular race. He forgets his first few races, Spa where Lewis unfairly had the win take off him and also the pit infringement Massa got a fine for yet Sutil got a time penalty in Hungary. It was aseason where so many variables could have swayed the result and Massa really needs to let this one go. Change the record little guy :)

Not to mention the penalty that Lewis got for not touching anybody at the start in Japan.

 

We have to move on. Hamilton won it, Massa lost it and against the facts there are no such arguments.



#67 sopa

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:42

There's nothing stopping the FIA from changing those regulations, if there is a rule preventing them from acting.

 

In this case I think it is more like their principle, which is why they don't change this regulation - "if the season is over, it's over."

 

In reality, FIA should have acted straightaway after Singapore 2008 and at least investigated. But they chose not to, just like they didn't deepen into Renault's late 2007 spygate scandal, believing that "there are things that are better left as they are". But as life shows - it is better to deal with problems instantly instead of letting them stay there before eventually coming back.


Edited by sopa, 09 January 2014 - 15:44.


#68 HPT

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:50

 He lost the world championship.

 

 While I think Lewis is the fastest guy on the grid, and deserved to win based on the outcome of the situation legally, I have to say it's always rubbed me the wrong way that Massa gets derided as a second string driver when he effectively was, for all intents and purposes, a championship winner - if but for a very short period of time.

 

Conversely, while I think Alonso is obviously one of the greats, he has also benefitted historically from a couple of "things" - Crashgate, and probably two years of the inertial damper (and some "tricky" Michelin contact patches).   He got the best of Alonso in qualifying, and while Kimi was probably in his "I don't care anymore" mode - he outperformed him.

 

 I hope that Massa stays above board if Symonds comes up with something "more than clever".  I'd like to think there are some in the paddock who still are not of the "win on paper at all costs" ilk.

 

What? When?



#69 jjcale

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:53

I don't think it's that hard a sell.  "Fernando, you are so far back on the grid that the only chance of a win is to gamble on an early safety car.  Singapore's a street circuit, it's maybe 50/50 that there will be one early doors, so it's worth doing a Hail Mary and hope for an early SC.  We've nothing to lose; gambling on getting wither a win or a 15th, or playing safe and guaranteeing no more than a 7th."

 

I'd've gone for it.

 

Yes but FA is not stupid ... once he heard that it was NP who crashed he would have figured it out.



#70 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:54

There's more culpability in Massa's terrible Silverstone 2008 contributing towards his loss of the world title, than Singapore.

 

Yeah the Piquet crash caused the pit stop, which added pressure to the top, which meant he left with the fuel hose attached. But the fuel hose issue could have happened on any pitstop in any race. It was a sequence of events rather than a singular blame.



#71 jjcale

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:56

Interesting incidentally looking back at the autosport live for the race here.  Some relevant points is that there was a chance of rain, which could have been sold as making an SC a possibility, Alonso told Spanish telly he was taking a risk by starting light to try to pass a load of cars, and at 12.29ff there was total surprise that Piquet binned it. 

On another forum where I was at the time there was a guy who is now here who called it pretty much right away ... I pay attention to his posts he is a very smart cookie.



#72 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:57

A few points I need to make to all those who are certain Alonso knew of the plan...

1). Why would Piquet protect Alonso? He has no reason to take all the blame.

2). Why would Symmonds and Permane protect Alonso? They've never been shy about pointing out his weaknesses.

3). Alonso started on fumes...therefore he must have known! He always went with bizzare strategies in the Renault days, remember Hungary 09? France 08? China 09? All the team had to say was "if we get a SC at the right time this could work". Starting on the same strategy wasnt going to get them anywhere.

He MIGHT have suspected afterwards but I don't for a second believe he knew about it.

#73 fabr68

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:59

Many people can suspect a lot of things even though the proven facts say otherwise.

#74 sopa

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:04

A few points I need to make to all those who are certain Alonso knew of the plan...

1). Why would Piquet protect Alonso? He has no reason to take all the blame.

2). Why would Symmonds and Permane protect Alonso? They've never been shy about pointing out his weaknesses.

3). Alonso started on fumes...therefore he must have known! He always went with bizzare strategies in the Renault days, remember Hungary 09? France 08? China 09? All the team had to say was "if we get a SC at the right time this could work". Starting on the same strategy wasnt going to get them anywhere.

He MIGHT have suspected afterwards but I don't for a second believe he knew about it.

 

1) The way I read Piquet's quote was that Alonso wasn't involved in the plan. I think there is a difference between participating and just getting information - "hey, your strategy, etc, will be like that tomorrow. Play along."

 

2) Same case. Of course they protect a person, who wasn't involved in the decision process. Symonds and Briatore were masterminds. It is not important if Alonso had any whiff of the idea or not, what matters is that he didn't go along with the original planning. 

 

3) I indeed remember Alonso having a relatively light fuel load on several occasions. However, wasn't it because on those occasions he actually qualified into Q3 and they just wanted get a high grid spot? Spain 2008 case in point. He was on the front row, but according to my memory had least fuel of all.



#75 Spillage

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:08

Massa was super unlucky in 2008 really. Not just Singapore (which I attribute more to a bungled pitstop than to Piquet's accident) but also his engine failure in Hungary as well. If he's still hung up on it, I think he'd do well to think back to what he commendably said at the time; sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

That said, if he's interested in the full truth regarding Crashgate for purely sporting reasons I think he'd be right to expose Alonso for any involvement he may have had. I really think the fans deserve to know.



#76 1Devil1

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:12

Alonso knew about Crashgate, big news  :lol:



#77 beute

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:17

"he's just bitter"

 

c'mon, he is right. It's the truth.

 

the Singapore 2008 GP was found to be  manipulated.

how can a manipulated result be counted?

 

Renault and others got punished and even if Alonso didnt know, the race still cant be counted.

There was an illegal action  that disrupted the whole race, and people are willing to just accept those results as official?

unintended consequences from manipulation of that magnitude should not be just accepted, why not role dice instead.

 

they should've discounted the race as soon as they knew about this, but I guess singapore was very good with "donations" and some people didnt want that to change....

 

 

 

.


Edited by beute, 09 January 2014 - 16:18.


#78 1Devil1

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:23

"he's just bitter"

 

c'mon, he is right. It's the truth.

 

the Singapore 2008 GP was found to be a manipulated.

So how can a manipulated result be counted?

 

Renault and others got punished and even if Alonso didnt know, the race still cant be counted.

There was an illegal action  that distrupted the whole race, and people are willing to just accept those results as official?

unintended consequences from manipulation of that magnitude should not be just accepted, why not role dice instead.

 

they should've discounted the race as soon as they knew about this, but I guess singapore was very good with "donations" and some people didnt want that to change....

 

 

Do you really believe the FIA would have taken the title from Hamilton, because an "illegal" event he wasn't involved, he got his crown, both drivers, went to the last race knowing what to do, that would never happen in any sports, Tour de France is different because the winner was found guilty, you can take drivers out of the result sheet, like they did with Schumacher in 1997, nevertheless a race, would change the whole point situation for all drivers 



#79 bourbon

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:32

The FIA should have disqualified Alonso from the race because the team specifically cheated to enable the win for him.   However, matriculating up a spot would not have helped Massa.

 

I understand why Massa is upset, the scheme was purposefully done by Renault, specifically on Alonso's behalf and if it had not taken place, it is very likely he would have come in the top 5 and been awarded enough points to win the title.  He pinpoints Alonso, perhaps because he feels he is not admitting his guilt and took the spoils besides - we'll never know - but I would reckon that Massa is angry at the entire gang of cheaters.  They did mess him up.



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#80 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:36

Alonso and his car broke no rules. Though I'd have stripped the team of the constructor points and hit them with a massive penalty. 



#81 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:39

Isn't it in FIA's regulations that once the FIA gala in December is over, the results have been cemented. It is impossible to change anything, regardless of how much cheating evidence you'll find in the future.

 

It is different to many other sports, who still DQ people retrospectively. Like UCI stripping Lance Armstrong of TdF titles a decade later retrospectively. But in FIA events they don't do like that.

 

So basically if you want to cheat and cheat a lot, make sure you can hide it under the carpet till FIA gala the same year. Doesn't matter, what happens later.;)

 

However, it also forces FIA to act immediately if they see something suspicious going on. And I think they were too lenient in the Renault Singapore case, believing that "these things happen" and "it was normal racing".

FIA's regulations? I am not sure about it. Still, is it that big a deal? It is FIA's own regulations! They change it left, right and center as they fit and the phrase 'making up as we go along' has always seemed like invented for FIA. I do remember reading in the sporting regulations that it is within the powers of FIA to disqualify or hand out punishment as it sees fit even if something comes to light after the results have been declared. Either way, I can't see anything stopping FIA on matters like this if they want. It is just they are much more known for incompetency and crookedness. It is sheer shamelessness that FIA let that win stand. Makes no sense what so ever.

 



#82 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:42

the Singapore 2008 GP was found to be  manipulated.

how can a manipulated result be counted?

.

Because the mischief was not known until a year later and nobody can show that Alonso was in on the act beforehand.  It's all suspicion and that is not enough.



#83 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:43

Plus was it illegal anyway?  Conduct detrimental is probably the closest.



#84 Balnazzard

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:44

Well OFCOURSE Alonso knew about it! This is old information, except for maybe those who truly are naive Fernando fans who believe Alonso was completely innocent and had no idea what kind of strategy his team had for him.....Alonso may have not been as part of the group who planned it, but he sure as hell knew about it, and his victory should have been taken away, but its in the past, and nothing can change it now, so its useless to talk about it.



#85 Kingshark

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:50

Felipe is bitter, and rightfully so. Had the 2008 season been a "normal" championship with no major misfortunes for any of the top drivers, Massa would probably have came out on top. At the end of the day, he didn't, but sometimes that's life.



#86 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:53

It's a really strange time to bring it up. I guess there are some sour grapes there.

 

I suspect Massa knows it's one of the things Alonso hates to hear discussed in the press...



#87 Balnazzard

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:57

So what would you believe then? We've heard the people involved say time and again that Alonso did not know, the rest may not be consistent but that has always been.

 

Until there is proof, we have to go with what was found : Alonso had no idea about the plan for Piquet to crash.

 

Regardless of people's "gut feel" or what logic would dictate (see how logical a guy who think his GF is cheating is). Ultimately it's not what you "know", it's what you can prove.

Look, Alonso started that race with only 6 laps of fuel in his tank....do you truly, TRULY believe that Alonso was not informed how much fuel there was and also why? The whole team was build around him and Briatore was his manager and Alonso is not stupid to not to ask any questions.....I truly find it hard to believe that there still are people who question whether or not Alonso knew about it....are people really this naive?

Also ppl who say that Alonso genuinely celebrated that victory, well look at Germany 2010.....the one he also won thanks to team-orders, and celebrated that too without any shame....

 

These and 2007 issues at Mclaren are the reasons why I can NEVER respect Alonso as person, though I do respect the fact that he is among the 4-best drivers.



#88 redviper22

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:00

Lots of posters here remind me of Lionel Hutz from the Simpsons.

"We've got plenty of hearsay and conjecture, those are kinds of evidence, your honour".

Alonso was interviewed by an experienced detective superintendent and he believed Alonso was telling the truth.

#89 Kingshark

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:01

I was searching through the old Racing Comments archive, and found this vintage thread which was created right after the Fuji race;

 

http://forums.autosp...ion-in-history/

 

Suddenly, five years later, Massa is the deserving champion of 2008. Oh, how times change.  :lol:


Edited by Kingshark, 09 January 2014 - 17:01.


#90 Tapz63

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:05

"he's just bitter"

c'mon, he is right. It's the truth.

the Singapore 2008 GP was found to be manipulated.
how can a manipulated result be counted?

Renault and others got punished and even if Alonso didnt know, the race still cant be counted.
There was an illegal action that disrupted the whole race, and people are willing to just accept those results as official?
unintended consequences from manipulation of that magnitude should not be just accepted, why not role dice instead.

they should've discounted the race as soon as they knew about this, but I guess singapore was very good with "donations" and some people didnt want that to change....



.


lol why should the whole race have been discounted? Removing alonsos win and moving everyone up one place would have been ok, but not taking everyone's points away! Are you a massa fan by any chance?

#91 Outsider

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:05

 

1) The way I read Piquet's quote was that Alonso wasn't involved in the plan. I think there is a difference between participating and just getting information - "hey, your strategy, etc, will be like that tomorrow. Play along."

 

wrong, Piquet has said more than once that according to his knowledge only him, Flav and Pat knew about it, no Alonso



#92 Briz

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:07

I was searching through the old Racing Comments archive, and found this vintage thread which was created right after the Fuji race;

 

http://forums.autosp...ion-in-history/

 

Suddenly, five years later, Massa is the deserving champion of 2008. Oh, how times change.  :lol:

 

Well that thread is from 2008. Hamilton has been 2008 champion for 5 years already and that's enough. It's time for Massa's to be 2008 champion too.



#93 kosmos

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:08

I rather believe Piquet word, and the FIA investigation than Felipe's last cry. Now that he is in Williams with Pat Symonds, he can ask him about it, after all Symonds is not a fan of Alonso, he has no interest in protecting him.


Edited by kosmos, 09 January 2014 - 17:09.


#94 ensign14

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:13

Felipe is bitter, and rightfully so. Had the 2008 season been a "normal" championship with no major misfortunes for any of the top drivers, Massa would probably have came out on top. At the end of the day, he didn't, but sometimes that's life.

 

Nah, he was Hamilton's bitch that season.  It took all the combined efforts of Max and his subs to finagle Massa even close to the title.



#95 chrisj

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:17

Who doesn't think that Alonso knew??

Exactly. Of course Alonso knew. Having said that, I still think he was surprised the plan worked well enough for him to win. Massa has a right to be p****d, even 5 years later.



#96 Outsider

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:19

Nah, he was Hamilton's bitch that season.  It took all the combined efforts of Max and his subs to finagle Massa even close to the title.

i, not Hamilton fan, completly agree



#97 Smile17

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 17:28

He knew yes. So what??



#98 Boxerevo

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 18:08

A few points I need to make to all those who are certain Alonso knew of the plan...

1). Why would Piquet protect Alonso? He has no reason to take all the blame.

2). Why would Symmonds and Permane protect Alonso? They've never been shy about pointing out his weaknesses.

3). Alonso started on fumes...therefore he must have known! He always went with bizzare strategies in the Renault days, remember Hungary 09? France 08? China 09? All the team had to say was "if we get a SC at the right time this could work". Starting on the same strategy wasnt going to get them anywhere.

He MIGHT have suspected afterwards but I don't for a second believe he knew about it.

Alonso is live money.

 

In everything there is limits to open your mouth,to not upset too much powerfull people.

 

But we will never know if he knew or not,i think would be best the best situation for the plan Alonso to not know what really were going on.


Edited by Boxerevo, 09 January 2014 - 18:12.


#99 Jon83

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 18:12

The investigator who questioned Alonso did not feel he knew about the crash (according to Max) 

 

Massa should blame Ferrari for messing up his pitstop in that race. Massa should blame himself for his appalling displays at Sepang, Silverstone and Hockeheim. He shouldn't be blaming other people for not winning the WDC. 

 

Time to move on. Would have brought this up had he still been at Ferrari? I think we all know the answer. 



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#100 Juan Kerr

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 18:17

Unfortunately Massa pins the single reason for him losing the WDC on that particular race. He forgets his first few races, Spa where Lewis unfairly had the win take off him and also the pit infringement Massa got a fine for yet Sutil got a time penalty in Hungary. It was aseason where so many variables could have swayed the result and Massa really needs to let this one go. Change the record little guy :)

If someone decides to fart in a different style it would affect the running of circumstances over again, it always gets me that people don't realise the simple fact that if you run circumstances over again they are chaotic so they don't follow the same identical path.