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End of the road for Lotus F1? [split]


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#1 Module

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 17:32

Here's an interresting article about Lotus:

 

End of the road for Lotus F1?

 

http://formulaspy.co...ad-for-lotus-f1



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#2 MustangSally

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 20:23

Here's an interresting article about Lotus:

 

http://formulaspy.co...ad-for-lotus-f1

 

 

Thanks for link. It's an interesting article.

 

Not because it says anything really new, but because it asks the right question.

 

'How did a perennially over-achieving team fail to capitalise on its success'.

 

It is obviously not all down to the economic times we live in, since the perennially under-achieving Williams still manages to get by with a lot less drama.

 

Since Genii took over, there is quite some history of disputes, dishonoured contracts, failed deals and false promises. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if people simply don't like doing business with Lopez and company. I can't say I was sympathetic to the way Lux destroyed Sutil.  Mansoor Iffy . . . not even settling with Kimi . . . how is this possibly a credible organisation? Lotus PR department should all be shot. 

 

One of the more interesting reports recently was that Maldonado really wanted to go to Sauber because he 'didn't trust' Lotus . . . hmmmm. 

 

To me, it all paints a picture.



#3 Shiroo

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 20:45

 

Thanks for link. It's an interesting article.

 

Not because it says anything really new, but because it asks the right question.

 

'How did a perennially over-achieving team fail to capitalise on its success'.

 

It is obviously not all down to the economic times we live in, since the perennially under-achieving Williams still manages to get by with a lot less drama.

 

Since Genii took over, there is quite some history of disputes, dishonoured contracts, failed deals and false promises. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if people simply don't like doing business with Lopez and company. I can't say I was sympathetic to the way Lux destroyed Sutil.  Mansoor Iffy . . . not even settling with Kimi . . . how is this possibly a credible organisation? Lotus PR department should all be shot. 

 

One of the more interesting reports recently was that Maldonado really wanted to go to Sauber because he 'didn't trust' Lotus . . . hmmmm. 

 

To me, it all paints a picture.

 

 

That's the point. HOW with their performance like in 2012 and 2013, didn't secure them any long term sponsorship. I'm baffled.


Edited by Shiroo, 11 January 2014 - 20:45.


#4 Module

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 20:51

That's the point. HOW with their performance like in 2012 and 2013, didn't secure them any long term sponsorship. I'm baffled.

 

I believe it's the odd partnershipmodel Genii is pushing and just doesn't seem to find partners...

 

I think this quote from EB is priceless in this situation:

 

 

 

Testimonial: LOTUS F1 TEAM
 
"Performance is the priority for Genii Capital, both on and off track; this is why their philosophy is a perfect fit for Formula 1. Their investment in Lotus F1 Team has been characterised by a commitment to success that has revitalized the team, its image and its on-track results. Strategic investment allied to a new, empowered management structure has given the team the tools and focus it needs to rebuild its stature in the sport." 
 
Eric BOULLIER, Team Principal & Managing Director, Lotus F1 Team

http://www.genii-cap...-management.htm



#5 Slackbladder

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 19:48

That's the point. HOW with their performance like in 2012 and 2013, didn't secure them any long term sponsorship. I'm baffled.


Because F1 isn't as attractive to sponsors as it was. The money needed to compete is crazy, and you're there in competition with Red Bull which can throw 200 odd million at it a season. Not to mention Ferrari and Mercedes which have all the back up of their respective motor companies.

#6 charly0418

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 21:16

I believe it's the odd partnershipmodel Genii is pushing and just doesn't seem to find partners...

 

I think this quote from EB is priceless in this situation:

 

http://www.genii-cap...-management.htm

 

are we really going to quote corporate crap? C'mon



#7 Owen

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 22:46

If this car turns out to be good but is hamstrung by money problems then that just makes the whole - impending meltdown - thing even more sad. The actual core people in this team seem to be a highly talented bunch, they clearly deserve better financial leadership...

#8 Dolph

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 23:21

If this car turns out to be good but is hamstrung by money problems then that just makes the whole - impending meltdown - thing even more sad. The actual core people in this team seem to be a highly talented bunch, they clearly deserve better financial leadership...

 

Impending meltdown? Bit of a drama queen aren't we? :stoned:

 

There have been several stories of teams being in financial trouble in the recent years - HRT, FI, Williams, Sauber, Caterham, Lotus. Only one of them went bancrupt so far.


Edited by Dolph, 12 January 2014 - 23:22.


#9 Morbus

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:07

I wouldn't miss Lotus. A shame for all the people working there, to be sure, but not for Lotus. They are a farce of a team. F1 would be better off without them, and maybe even a lot better should their dropping out amount to a wake up call to the whole cost-cutting business.

 

Just force the teams to build the whole car themselves, no outsourcing, and force them to a maximum of 150 people. THAT will bring costs down. Anything else is just patching around the issue. The REAL issue.



#10 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:37

At some point you have to allow outsourcing or it would get ridiculous. They currently build most of the cars themselves anyway so it that doesn't need much changing.



#11 Shiroo

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:35

At some point CVC and the rest of the **** that is working within F1 need to resolve how it does work. Unless they want only manfacturers or 5 teams at most. Or make a budget cap.

F1 need to rethink what they want. They want plenty of teams fighting or they want 4-5 teams that fight and the rest as some cars running around behind these 5 teams 1sec slower or so. 



#12 Gorma

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:40

 

Just force the teams to build the whole car themselves, no outsourcing, and force them to a maximum of 150 people. THAT will bring costs down. Anything else is just patching around the issue. The REAL issue.

Mining for titanium, magnesium and aluminium with 150 might prove difficult and setting up a foundry can get expensive.



#13 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:37

Thanks for link. It's an interesting article.
 
Not because it says anything really new, but because it asks the right question.
 
'How did a perennially over-achieving team fail to capitalise on its success'.
 
It is obviously not all down to the economic times we live in, since the perennially under-achieving Williams still manages to get by with a lot less drama.


That statement of yours actually sums up an issue that I have with this team. I don't actually think they are over-achieving. Overachieving in a motorsport context, to me at least, is defined as obtaining results higher than can be expected of the available budget.

And true, Lotus have achieved excellent results for their budget - but they didn't exactly stick to their budget now did they? Force India and Sauber for example, have a lot of clever people working for them and I'm sure if they significantly overspent on their budget and didn't pay their drivers and suppliers, that they could achieve excellent results. It still woulnd't be overachieving if they're then struggling to make the next season.

According to my interpretation then, Lotus have been living far above it's means, unlike Williams, Sauber and Force India (and yes, I know they're all complaining about cash and whathaveyou, but at least I think they'll scrape by and make the season). Looked at it from another angle, would Lotus still have been 'over achieving' had they actually paid their drivers and suppliers on time (or, you know, at all)? I doubt it.

#14 ottostreet

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:36

Here's an interresting article about Lotus:

 

End of the road for Lotus F1?

 

http://formulaspy.co...ad-for-lotus-f1

Thanks for sharing this, I wrote this article.

 

That statement of yours actually sums up an issue that I have with this team. I don't actually think they are over-achieving. Overachieving in a motorsport context, to me at least, is defined as obtaining results higher than can be expected of the available budget.

And true, Lotus have achieved excellent results for their budget - but they didn't exactly stick to their budget now did they? Force India and Sauber for example, have a lot of clever people working for them and I'm sure if they significantly overspent on their budget and didn't pay their drivers and suppliers, that they could achieve excellent results. It still woulnd't be overachieving if they're then struggling to make the next season.

According to my interpretation then, Lotus have been living far above it's means, unlike Williams, Sauber and Force India (and yes, I know they're all complaining about cash and whathaveyou, but at least I think they'll scrape by and make the season). Looked at it from another angle, would Lotus still have been 'over achieving' had they actually paid their drivers and suppliers on time (or, you know, at all)? I doubt it.

 

I agree with that to a point. The Enstone squad have always been there or thereabouts, and usually have a decent car, season in, season out. They have gotten bold in the last year or two with no payments to various people, but even if they were paying the bills, I don't think they'd be much worse. Maybe worse performance in the last handful of races with an inability to develop.

 



#15 george1981

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:49

Thanks for sharing this, I wrote this article.

 

 

I agree with that to a point. The Enstone squad have always been there or thereabouts, and usually have a decent car, season in, season out. They have gotten bold in the last year or two with no payments to various people, but even if they were paying the bills, I don't think they'd be much worse. Maybe worse performance in the last handful of races with an inability to develop.

 

The only time that team did really badly was at the end of the 90s when they were recovering from the loss of Schumacher and Brawn et al and at the beginning of the Renault period when Renault made a point of doing engine development on track.

I wonder how much of the supposed downforce Lotus have found is down to their front nose design. By the sounds of it it is a fugly design but might allow lots of air under the front nose to feed the floor and diffuser. Is the whole car designed around that philosophy? Is so will it suffer if it is banned?



#16 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:09

Thanks for sharing this, I wrote this article.
 
 
I agree with that to a point. The Enstone squad have always been there or thereabouts, and usually have a decent car, season in, season out. They have gotten bold in the last year or two with no payments to various people, but even if they were paying the bills, I don't think they'd be much worse. Maybe worse performance in the last handful of races with an inability to develop.


Yeah maybe, one can never know for sure. I've heard noises about the team owing Räikkönen 20m euro. Lets say they owe suppliers 5m euro (this an assumption). Would you have me believe that they'd still be there or there-abouts if they had a 25m budget cut?

How much CFD time does 25m buy? Or how many engineers? Or test rig time? I reckon it would cost them at least 1 place in the WCC with the team behind them snapping at their heels.

It doesn't seem so over-achieving anymore does it?

(edit: Rereading my post, it comes off a lot more antagonistic than I had in mind - I apologise for that)

Edited by KiloWatt, 13 January 2014 - 12:15.


#17 alfsboy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:27

Because F1 isn't as attractive to sponsors as it was. The money needed to compete is crazy, and you're there in competition with Red Bull which can throw 200 odd million at it a season. Not to mention Ferrari and Mercedes which have all the back up of their respective motor companies.

Got to agree with this .Now most banks are gone ,and booze,fags  banned ,there is only pornography left ,or may fracking and GM crops .An F1 sponsor has to have money to throw away in hundreds of millions ,ie no shareholders ...Free Bernie Madoff possibly...................Free Texas....................... :drunk:



#18 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 15:53

The only time that team did really badly was at the end of the 90s when they were recovering from the loss of Schumacher and Brawn et al and at the beginning of the Renault period when Renault made a point of doing engine development on track.

I wonder how much of the supposed downforce Lotus have found is down to their front nose design. By the sounds of it it is a fugly design but might allow lots of air under the front nose to feed the floor and diffuser. Is the whole car designed around that philosophy? Is so will it suffer if it is banned?

 

As i have understand and I'm not sure about it, you can run anything in the test as long as the chassis passes its crash test so if they seem to have develop a solution, probably a nose that happens to be illegal would they still miss Jerez?



#19 Shambolic

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 16:03

I wouldn't miss Lotus. A shame for all the people working there, to be sure, but not for Lotus. They are a farce of a team. F1 would be better off without them

Yes, the last thing we need is a strong team running near the front, threatening to mix with the Red Bulls on the (many) days Ferrari McLaren and Mercedes fail to impress.

 

The sooner a team that has managed considerable on track success with a limited budget (they may have overspent, but they still did a hell of a lot per pound however you count it) vanishes, leaving just the elite, the better.
 



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#20 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 16:10

Davide Valsecchi has admitted that he hasn't been paid by lotus for the services he provided during this past year.



#21 Risil

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 16:59

Davide Valsecchi has admitted that he hasn't been paid by lotus for the services he provided during this past year.

 

Does he charge a lot to stand around in team gear then?



#22 Jon83

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 17:04

Got to agree with this .Now most banks are gone ,and booze,fags  banned ,there is only pornography left ,or may fracking and GM crops .An F1 sponsor has to have money to throw away in hundreds of millions ,ie no shareholders ...Free Bernie Madoff possibly...................Free Texas....................... :drunk:

 

LOL - Imagine the Daily Mail response to that!



#23 Risil

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 17:08

Got to agree with this .Now most banks are gone ,and booze,fags  banned ,there is only pornography left ,or may fracking and GM crops .An F1 sponsor has to have money to throw away in hundreds of millions ,ie no shareholders ...Free Bernie Madoff possibly...................Free Texas....................... :drunk:

 

It's weird, the range of sponsors the Enstone team have used in recent years make them look like the poster child of post-tobacco F1 advertising. Premium car company, consumer brands company, Coca-Cola owned energy drink, Microsoft...

 

None of them appeared to pay though, which sort of made the strategy a bit like how you can get generic toy F1 cars with stickers from famous brands on with names like "F1 Champion" or "Grand Prix Racer". Still, if they'd been paid the sort of prize money that less successful teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Mclaren were getting...



#24 Risil

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 17:11

LOL - Imagine the Daily Mail response to that!

 

ArrowsA3_3Barcelona_2ScUjUGLm.jpg

 

Booze, fags and mags! Think of the children!



#25 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 18:16

Interesting headline on french AutoHebdo on Lotus in their printed edition.

 

"The underside of a coup"

 

We should know more by 10:00 pm british time.

 

It seems that something major changed in the team last week.

 

The situation will get better for the team.


Edited by Viryfan, 13 January 2014 - 18:17.


#26 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 18:35

Eh?

#27 BRG

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 18:45

 

It seems that something major changed in the team last week.

 

Maybe that elusive cheque finally arrived?



#28 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 18:48

Interesting headline on french AutoHebdo on Lotus in their printed edition.

 

"The underside of a coup"

 

We should know more by 10:00 pm british time.

 

It seems that something major changed in the team last week.

 

The situation will get better for the team.

 

Boullier raised Renault money and with the help of Renault they bought the team back and kicked Lopez out I guess...



#29 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 18:53

Documents from the team has been leaked according to Auto-Hebdo.

 

 

It should be released on AutoHebdo tonight.



#30 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 19:04

The minority shareholder Andrew Ruhan has made a putsch in the team..



#31 artista

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 19:29

If he is a minority shareholder, how can he do a Putsch? I mean, it's not like you can take control of a company with a panzer. You need people to support you till you get the majority of the votes, right?

I suppose, I just showed my absolute ignorance in economics or business administration :blush:

Edited by artista, 13 January 2014 - 19:30.


#32 alfsboy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 19:38

Lets hope the team succeed .They are needed and I hate to anyone in F1 losing their jobs .

suggested sponsors "Syria,a place you can trust" , "Putingaz" ,"Norrf Koreer" ( Essex ad agency)."Colorado ,higher than you thought"



#33 alfsboy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 19:39

If he is a minority shareholder, how can he do a Putsch? I mean, it's not like you can take control of a company with a panzer. You need people to support you till you get the majority of the votes, right?

I suppose, I just showed my absolute ignorance in economics or business administration :blush:

A putsch is one man having a gun (or money) and the others none .



#34 artista

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 19:48

A putsch is one man having a gun (or money) and the others none .


That actually made sense to me. Thanks!

#35 Shiroo

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 21:36

Interesting headline on french AutoHebdo on Lotus in their printed edition.

 

"The underside of a coup"

 

We should know more by 10:00 pm british time.

 

It seems that something major changed in the team last week.

 

The situation will get better for the team.

 

 

And?



#36 midgrid

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:00

And?

Still one minute to go!  :p



#37 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:11

Still one minute to go!  :p

 

The article will be next week. 



#38 Hirvonen89

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:14

in 2015 or..? :D 



#39 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:18

The article will be next week. 

 

go to bed sleeping



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#40 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:22

they are updating the website.

 

i will buy it straight away

 

here the start of the article

http://www.autohebdo...ous_d_un_putsch



#41 jjcale

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:31

Bring back the Flav!!



#42 artista

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 22:38

Bring back the Flav!!

Yeah, since none of their drivers is crash-prone, the team obviously needs somebody to tell them to crash on purpose

Edited by artista, 13 January 2014 - 22:39.


#43 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:08

So according to Autohebdo Andrew Ruhan is now running together with Lopez the team.

 

Ruhan lent 65 million euros to Lopez last year to run the team waiting Quantum but the money never came.

 

So he did put pressure on Lopez to give the money back so they had to change the way to run the team.

 

Budget went down to 115 million of euros instead of 160 as it is considered as it is considered safe..

 

Now Ruhan will chase the sponsors and manage the marketing.

 

80 employees fired.

 

Jackie Stewart fired.

 

They are still discussing the price with Renault, they don't want to pay as much as Caterham.



#44 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:21

Yeah, since none of their drivers is crash-prone, the team obviously needs somebody to tell them to crash on purpose

 

That's what so good about the idea... who's to say that Maldonado didn't crash into the Monaco harbour to decapitate Mansoor Ijaz of his own accord?



#45 Knot

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:39

At this point, I'd wager that all of Lotus' problems start with a G and end with an I.



#46 Viryfan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:39

According to Motorsport Monday Andrew Ruhan has take a controlling stake in the team.

 

He is now executive chairman.



#47 Module

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:43

The minority shareholder Andrew Ruhan has made a putsch in the team..

The change of CEO hinted towards that. The rumours were that Ruhan lended money with extremely strickt rules. Essentialy this probably means that Lotus hasn't only been unable to pay its drivers, reservedriver, staff nor suppliers but also their debt and Ruhan has done a coup in the team seizing control.

 

If it's true that Ruhan borrowed 65 mil to Lopez I think there is a genuine reason to start looking at Genii. Lotus owed Genii 100 mil and from that 65 was Ruhans money? What is the true solidity and how much funds does Genii actualy have as it seems they have had to borrow from several places with very bad agreements.



#48 Module

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 23:53

So according to Autohebdo Andrew Ruhan is now running together with Lopez the team.

 

Ruhan lent 65 million euros to Lopez last year to run the team waiting Quantum but the money never came.

 

So he did put pressure on Lopez to give the money back so they had to change the way to run the team.

 

Budget went down to 115 million of euros instead of 160 as it is considered as it is considered safe..

 

Now Ruhan will chase the sponsors and manage the marketing.

 

80 employees fired.

 

Jackie Stewart fired.

 

They are still discussing the price with Renault, they don't want to pay as much as Caterham.

Good!!! :clap:

 

Well not for the fired obviously but this is the first genuinely good news about Lotus survival for a long time. Seems that somebody who wants to make the team survive has taken over from dreamers playing the Quantum-lottery with suppliers, drivers, personels and others money. Ruhan taking over sales to sponsors sounds like he is searching for money for Lotus and not for the partnership-Genii-Lotus-not-getting-but loans-model. So all in all it seems Lotus has taken a lastminute u-turn from the brink.

 

80 employees sounds on the otherhand realy bad, hopefully they will find employment somewhere else as soon as possible :(



#49 AlexS

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 00:05

Since Lotus was sponsor vehicle to Genii , probably temporarily to be sold later they didn't developed any rush to get sponsors. This exercise seems like those software developers that build an application and wish to sell it later to a bigger company by a big load of $M. 



#50 Module

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 00:12

 

Tom Wilkinson @TomWilkinsonF1 12h

@MSportMonday understands Andrew Ruhan increases his interest in Lotus & becomes exec chairman. Read the exclusive. http://Motorsportmonday.com