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Best English F1 driver ever?


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Poll: Who, in your opinion, is the best English F1 driver of all time? (300 member(s) have cast votes)

Who, in your opinion, is the best English F1 driver of all time?

  1. Jenson Button (F1 World Champion 2009, Runner-up 2011) (9 votes [3.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.00%

  2. Lewis Hamilton (F1 World Champion 2008, Runner-up 2007) (51 votes [17.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.00%

  3. Mike Hawthorn (F1 World Champion 1958) (1 votes [0.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.33%

  4. Damon Hill (F1 World Champion 1996, Runner-up 1994 & 1995) (5 votes [1.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.67%

  5. Graham Hill (F1 World Champion 1962 & 1968, Runner-up 1963, 1964 & 1965) (63 votes [21.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.00%

  6. James Hunt (F1 World Champion 1976) (14 votes [4.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.67%

  7. Nigel Mansell (F1 World Champion 1992, Runner-up 1986, 1987 & 1991) (41 votes [13.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.67%

  8. Stirling Moss (F1 Runner-up 1955, 1956, 1957 & 1958) (96 votes [32.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  9. John Surtees (F1 World Champion 1964, Runner-up 1966) (20 votes [6.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

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#1 Spillage

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:51

So, here's what I think will prove to be an interesting and illuminating discussion. I've been reading through Roger Smith's Formula 1: All The Races since Christmas and got to thinking about the respective merits of Formula 1's British drivers. I came to the opinionated conclusion that the two greatest British F1 drivers since 1950 were both Scotsman - Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart. Given that that was pretty clear-cut to me, I then got to thinking more specifically about English drivers, which I find to be a much more contentious topic.

 

The question is difficult because there are a number of drivers I would consider to be of similarly outstanding talent. I find it difficult to compare contemporary drivers Hamilton and Button to those of the past, as judgement of past drivers must be influenced by highs and lows over their whole careers, making a comparison between past and present rather hasty. Nigel Mansell was a tempting option, but then I thought about Graham Hill; the only English driver to win two world championships. That said, there was an element of luck in that - it is difficult to argue that he would have won in 1968 were it not for Clark's untimely death after the season's first race. Then I thought about John Surtees, 1964 World Champion who likely would have been champion in 1966 but for his fall-out with Ferrari. That said, from what I've read Surtees also had difficulties with the management at both Honda and BRM, so perhaps his tempestuous nature should count against him. So in the end I came back to Hill Snr, not only a double world champion but also three-times a runner-up. 

 

To clarify, I'm looking at drivers solely by the way they handled their careers, and ultimately the way they drove in the pursuit of success, rather than their public image or any ethics they may have with which you strongly concur. So - what do you think? And how do you think your pick compares to the Scottish duo of Clark and Stewart? I include in the poll all eight English World Champions, along with Stirling Moss as I suspect he may be a popular choice.



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#2 gazacland123

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 13:13

Best englishman to win Formula 1 world championship...........personally, Jenson Button, and that's not a sentimental response over the sad loss of Jenson's dad recently. However, I think, controversially, that you should always judge a driver by his ability in wet/intermediate conditions, because lightness of touch, finesse, car control and ability comes right to the fore when the grip level goes down. And Jenson, has, since 2000, arguably been the most consistently brilliant driver in damp, slippery conditions, making other drivers look cumbersome, foolish - and above all, slow. Think of his astonishing come back drives in Hungary 2006 or Canada 2011, but also other gems such as Germany 2000 where on a wet track at the end of the race he was FOUR seconds a lap faster than anyone; USA 2003 where a combination of excellent strategy and supreme wet weather car control Jenson led the race in a BAR which had no right to lead a race; Monza 2004 where from sixth on the grid he hauled himself to lead the race on a damp track while others slithered about only to be caught at the end of the race by the far superior Ferraris of Michael and Rubhino; Spa 2005 were Jenson had to make an extra pit stop but again his wet weather genius got him onto the podium; China 2007 when in the awful Honda he kept the car on the track in the slippery track and dragged it upto fifth in a position it shouldn't have been; or Jenson's (so far) last win in Brazil 2012 where again his lightness of touch and wonderful car control saw him and Nico Hulkenburg leading the race at one point over 50 SECONDS ahead of the others before the safety car come out..........netherless Jenson's supreme rainmaster skills still saw him win the race. Of course, other English drivers have driven some great wet weather races; Stirling Moss at the Nuburgring 1961 where a combination of his genius and the nimble, aero efficient Lotus 18 saw him give the superior Ferrari a good kicking; John Surtees supreme victory at the Spa deluge in 1966; Damon Hill's sublime rain affected victories at Suzuka 94, Brazil 96 and of course Belgium 98 where he kept his nerve and didn't crash into lapping cars on his way to Jordan's first victory......Nigel Mansell great performances at a soggy Barcelona in 1991 and 1992..............all great drives.......................but Jenson has put in more sensational rainmaster performances in his Formula 1 career than any other English grand prix drivers F1 career. Personally, I would make sure Formula 1 visits countries at a time of the rainy season, rain always brings out the best of a driver..............and Jenson Button is the ultimate English rain king, and therefore the best Englishman to win F1 world championship. 



#3 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 13:14

Didn't see most of them drive so not really possible for me to answer.  Whatever Ensign says.



#4 stanga

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 13:21

I don't see how you can include current drivers. Their story is not yet complete.



#5 ensign14

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 13:57

Didn't see most of them drive so not really possible for me to answer.  Whatever Ensign says.

 

He says Stirling Moss.



#6 as65p

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 13:59

Didn't see most of them drive so not really possible for me to answer. 

 

Same here.

 

Whatever Ensign says.

 

But not there, I presume too.  ;)



#7 Newbrray

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:07

The thread title could have specified "British" as opposed to just "English". That way Jackie  Stewart could then be included in the poll list



#8 ensign14

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:11

The thread title could have specified "British" as opposed to just "English". That way Jackie  Stewart could then be included in the poll list

 

Then it would have been close to 100% Jim Clark, 0% the field.



#9 noikeee

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:14

Moss was consistently best F1 driver in the world for a few seasons running, which I can't say for anyone else on the poll despite the fact they're all champs and he isn't. So yeah, Moss.



#10 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:23

Lewis Hamilton. Everything else is delusional denial.



#11 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:27

Nigel Mansell was good enough to have his own video game, so him imo.  There's no Naijeru Manseru F-1 Charenji for Stirling Moss and co!



#12 ardbeg

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:31

I've always thought John Surtees is slightly, possibly heavily, underrated these days. The man had a natural talent for speed that might be unmatched up until today. This article made me even more certain he is one of the greatest:
http://plus.autospor...d-was-surtees/



#13 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:41

Although Moss is head and shoulders above the others in my opinion, I find it very sad that Tony Brooks doesn't even make the poll.



#14 ensign14

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:42

I've always thought John Surtees is slightly, possibly heavily, underrated these days. The man had a natural talent for speed that might be unmatched up until today. This article made me even more certain he is one of the greatest:
http://plus.autospor...d-was-surtees/

 

I agree.  Without Dragoni he may well have been champ in '66 as well.  But it's a testament to how good Moss and Clark were that Surtees and G Hill from the same era are overlooked.  Let alone Gurney et al.



#15 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:45

Although Moss is head and shoulders above the others in my opinion, I find it very sad that Tony Brooks doesn't even make the poll.


Indeed. I actually had Brooks at number 2.

Throw Scots into the mix, and gut feel says Clark pips Moss, but Stewart doesn't.

#16 scheivlak

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:46

Although Moss is head and shoulders above the others in my opinion, I find it very sad that Tony Brooks doesn't even make the poll.

But - also in view of your own comment - who would rate Brooks over Moss?



#17 Lazy

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:50

Yeah, probably the guy that never won the championship.



#18 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:54

But - also in view of your own comment - who would rate Brooks over Moss?

 

Nobody i shouldn't imagine but I'd say he's better than half the other choices.



#19 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:01

Good, well that was straightforward enough. Which country next?

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#20 sennafan24

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:11

I only have enough knowledge and measurements to rate 4 namely

 

Lewis

Jenson

Hill

Mansell

 

Out of those I rate Lewis highest, just to quickly touch on Lewis vs Jenson, I felt Lewis outperformed Jenson in 2 out of the 3 years they were teammates, and the points total was distorted by Lewis retiring a lot whislt in first place. Lewis also has a victories head to head over Alonso, Rosberg and Heikki which show he compares well to other drivers, added with his WDC.

 

Jenson in general is pretty underrated, whilst he tailed of towards the end of 2013, he still beat Perez a staggering 12-6 in races finished ahead when both finsihed (this flatters Lewis also when you consider how hard Jenson found it to finsih ahead of Lewis when nothing went wrong). He is also the only driver to outright out perform Lewis as his teammate, as in 2011 he not only outscored him, but also outperformed him handily. Also, if we had a mixed conditions Championship, I would put my money on Jenson straight away.

 

Hill is also underrated as I wrote in another thread, he performed well against Prost, beat D.C and J.V. I would rate him and Jenson about level.

 

Mansell I think is overrated. I would put him on the same level as Hill and Button. Mansell did perform well against Piquet, but as others stated Nelson was injured and maybe past his best. He lost to Ellio head to head at Lotus, and although outscoring Berger he did not outperform him outright, as the Ferrari was too unrelable to allow for a fair fight between teammates. Prost beat him handily, even if Mansell disputes the treatment he got from Ferrari. He has the faster car in 1991, that was not as unrelaible as some like to remember, yet Senna still beat him. 1992 he did drive well, but his car was far and away the class of the field, Patrese was over the hill, as shown by the way Schumi outperformed him in 1993.

 

Its hard to have a outright list, but out of the 4 I have seen in my lifetime, I think Lewis is best, just my opinion :up:


Edited by sennafan24, 15 January 2014 - 15:11.


#21 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:15

You're being serious aren't you?



#22 Spillage

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:18

The thread title could have specified "British" as opposed to just "English". That way Jackie  Stewart could then be included in the poll list

Read the opening post again man - Ensign is absolutely right.

 

Am interested in the support in the comments for Tony Brooks. No denying his talent, but what makes you guys think he was better than the other drivers in the poll?



#23 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:18

Heart says Graham Hill. Head says Moss. (Voted heart!)

Nigel Mansell was a tempting option, but then I thought about Graham Hill; the only English driver to win two world championships. That said, there was an element of luck in that - it is difficult to argue that he would have won in 1968 were it not for Clark's untimely death after the season's first race.

A point which is often overlooked about 1968 is the appalling mid-season reliability of the Lotus 49. Graham had run of six races where he picked up just one points finish - second behind Stewart in monsoon conditions in Germany. Admittedly Jackie Oliver was no Jim Clark, but he had an even worse finishing record than Graham.

 

Given Stewart's run of success over the summer, Lotus might well have found themselves going into the last couple of races with both Hill and Clark in with a chance of the title. When you think back to Graham's appalling run of bad luck at the end of 1967, it's interesting to speculate on which driver Chapman would have favoured in those circumstances. Jimmy had won at Watkins Glen the previous year - a race which was supposed to have been Graham's - and he already had two titles.



#24 spacekid

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:27

Lewis Hamilton. Everything else is delusional denial.

 

Has my sarcasm detector gone on the blink? It isn't always easy to tell without that winky smiley.



#25 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:30

Am interested in the support in the comments for Tony Brooks. No denying his talent, but what makes you guys think he was better than the other drivers in the poll?


Personally, I'm a sucker for the guys who can make it all look so easy, the type that ooze natural talent whilst leaving others in their wake.

Nicest person I've ever met in motorsport, although that's not relevant to the question asked. The fact that he won his first ever F1 race might be though.

What was that DSJ quote? "Hawthorn and Collins could be great. Moss and Brooks were great".

#26 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:43

Have to agree with EB, going out in your first F1 race against the works Maseratis and beating them in an unreliable Connaught is impressive.

 

Beating fellow drivers of such calibre as he raced against to win at the classic circuits Spa, Nurburgring and Monza while not having to push beyond his natural ability and risk his well-being like so many others is also noteworthy.

 

 

"I think the best driver in the world who nobody knows about is Tony Brooks. I would put Tony Brooks very high. If I had a team I would have taken him over people like Graham Hill and other world champions."
-Sir Stirling Moss.


#27 Lights

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:49

Just wanted to point out the interesting fact that in the races they were racing together, Moss never once beat Hamilton.



#28 sennafan24

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 15:57

You're being serious aren't you?

Care to offer a argument why I am wrong, instead of snarky remarks :down:



#29 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:00

Same here.

 

But not there, I presume too.  ;)

Ensign is only 23 but he bluffs better than I do.



#30 Option1

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:15

And he's also right.  Moss by a mile from that list.

 

Neil



#31 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:18

Care to offer a argument why I am wrong, instead of snarky remarks :down:

 

It wasn't aimed at you, it was a response to EB's post to suggest that this thread wouldn't be as done and dusted as his tongue in cheek remark suggested, I was however interupted before posting and it fell below your comment.  However, having read your post I like the way you posed your opinion, the overated Mansell is equally as good as the underated Button and underated Hill.  I'd have said that the overated Hill was flattered by his car while the underated Button was equal with the overated Hamilton but not as competive as the underated Mansell.

 

I won't put a picture of a hand at the end of my comment because I cant find one with the right finger.



#32 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:22

Care to offer an argument why I am wrong, instead of snarky remarks?



#33 Kingshark

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:27

1. Sir Stirling Moss

2. Graham Hill

3. Nigel Mansell

4. Lewis Hamilton

5. Damon Hill



#34 Coral

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:34

Even though he never won a World Championship (although he should have) I would have to say Sir Stirling Moss.


Edited by Coral, 15 January 2014 - 16:35.


#35 1Devil1

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:40

Lewis Hamilton. Everything else is delusional denial.

 

...

Its hard to have a outright list, but out of the 4 I have seen in my lifetime, I think Lewis is best, just my opinion :up:

find the difference   ;)



#36 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:40

Even though he never won a World Championship (although he should have) I would have to say Sir Stirling Moss.


He is maybe the only driver of which you can say his failure to win the WDC damages the reputation of the championship more than the driver.

#37 Paul Parker

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:56

He says Stirling Moss.

 

I watched Moss in period, ditto Clark and Stewart.

 

Valid comparisons are not really possible as their careers peaked at different times and the cars changed radically after Stirling's retirement and again after Clark's death.

 

What I would say however is that Moss was a better GT/sports car driver than Clark but he was not a good starter. Another problem was the way that he would insist on fiddling with his cars, a habit not unknown with two other top GP drivers, for instance at Vanwall it was using the engine from one car and the chassis from another and in 1959 he drove a BRM powered Cooper, a Climax powered one and a BRM P25 which must have made for all sorts of unnecessary complications and continuity problems. He deserved much better but in an age when racing cars were capricious, dangerous and unreliable and circuits even more so he was fortunate to survive.

 

Following the Spa shunt in 1960 he was never quite the same again, in my opinion, whilst allowing for his '61 Monaco and Ring victories and then in 1962 he could not get his hands on the latest Lotus because, unsurprisingly Esso did not want Clark and Team Lotus being beaten and/or seriously challenged by a customer car fuelled by BP. Beyond this Stirling was significantly older than Clark and he would surely soon have found himself being bested anyway.

 

Clark meanwhile was a driver who, again in my opinion, and unlike Stirling and later JYS, did not handle pressure as well and could be forced into driver error, as per Aintree in '64 and the '65 Brands shunt which I witnessed. Additionally unlike Stirling he did have the advantage of the best car on the grid from 1962-65 and then in 1967 and only reliability issues stopped this combo from being World Champion in 1962, 1964 and 1967.

 

Personally I would plump for Stewart as being the most complete all round racer and one of the very best in any category, only the indifferent March 701 in 1970 and serious ill health in 1972 caused by his savage schedule stopped him from being WC 5 years in a row. Despite this he still finished 2nd in the 1972 standings. You might also include 1968 as a lost opportunity given the embryonic Tyrrell/Matra deal and his wrist injury from a F2 race which caused him to miss the Spanish and Monaco GPs and undoubtedly slowed him down elsewhere. Even so he finished runner up behind Graham Hill, so it could have been 6 in a row.

 

What if I know but Stewart really was the supreme racer in any car, any time, anywhere.



#38 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 16:58

Stirling is the most iconic but I would say Surtees for his contribution with winning on both two and four wheels. I personally think he deserves a knighthood, especially considering lesser sporting talents produced by our great country have already received that accolade. I met John on Saturday too and he's very humble and a thoroughly nice bloke.


Hamilton is the best English driver since Mansell IMO. Whether he is better than Nigel I couldn't really say. Mansell was a great driver so it's difficult to compare right now.

#39 Amanda1978

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:10

John watson has always been to me the best driver who never became world champion.  Okay, he's not English but he IS British.



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#40 Collombin

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:13

John watson has always been to me the best driver who never became world champion.  Okay, he's not English but he IS British.


Watson was the driver Nigel Roebuck once referred to as "one of the lesser lights - British I regret to say". A tad harsh IMO!

#41 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:21

Not wishing to hijack the thread but just out of interest when we're mentioning lesser lights from the emerald isle... has anyone heard if Eddie Irvine is actually going to serve the 6 months on Her Majesties pleasure for his recent indiscretion? 



#42 sennafan24

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:24

It wasn't aimed at you, it was a response to EB's post to suggest that this thread wouldn't be as done and dusted as his tongue in cheek remark suggested, I was however interupted before posting and it fell below your comment.  However, having read your post I like the way you posed your opinion, the overated Mansell is equally as good as the underated Button and underated Hill.  I'd have said that the overated Hill was flattered by his car while the underated Button was equal with the overated Hamilton but not as competive as the underated Mansell.

 

I won't put a picture of a hand at the end of my comment because I cant find one with the right finger.

Me saying who I think is over/under rated is purely my opinion.

 

Just like its my opinion that your spelling is overrated  :down:



#43 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:27

find the difference   ;)

That's easy.  They have both offered an opinion on the question asked by the thread, while you are trying to make a point about them.



#44 scheivlak

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:29

 Another problem was the way that he would insist on fiddling with his cars, a habit not unknown with two other top GP drivers, for instance at Vanwall it was using the engine from one car and the chassis from another

I get the idea that those chassis/engine switches at Vanwall were not Moss' idea but a team policy. See e.g. http://www.forix.com/8w/vanwall.html

"Vanwall brought four chassis and two spare engines to the race. The chassis and engines were allocated this way: VW1 with engine V3 for Moss; VW4 with engine V4 for Brooks; VW5 with engine V2 for Lewis-Evans; and, VW7 served as the spare along with engine V1 as one of the two spares brought along. After some problems during practice, the mechanics pulled V4 and replaced it with V1 for the race." 

 in 1959 he drove a BRM powered Cooper

When? 


Edited by scheivlak, 15 January 2014 - 17:31.


#45 eronrules

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:32

let me put it this way ...

 

i know all of them could drive, they had that talent, but how many had the swagger of james hunt??? 

 

none

 

that's why we love kimi.  :smoking:

 

nigel would come a close 2nd.

 

:cool:



#46 santori

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:33

Just from reading I'd have to say Stirling Moss, but also that John Surtees might have been the best English pilot (in a general motorsport sense) to have raced in F1.

 

 

Special mention to the unassuming Tony Brooks who seems to have been only fractionally less talented than Moss.


Edited by santori, 15 January 2014 - 17:38.


#47 ensign14

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:43

When? 

 

BARC 200.  Fastest lap but the alleged gearbox bost again. 



#48 DampMongoose

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:45

Me saying who I think is over/under rated is purely my opinion.

 

Just like its my opinion that your spelling is overrated  :down:

 

I didn't say anything about your opinion, I offered my own in the same vein as your approach.  No need to be so confrontational.

 

Regarding my spelling, it's (that's how it should be) overrated by you, which suggests it could be underrated when compared to others. Which is fine.



#49 scheivlak

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:55

BARC 200.  Fastest lap but the alleged gearbox bost again. 

So one try, collected his start money and got some valuable experience in a non-championship race and went on - no big deal.



#50 DS27

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 17:57

I voted for Damon Hill by mistake - can I be banned for that?