Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 1 votes

Cosworth DFV vs Ferrari F12


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 gazacland123

gazacland123
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 15 January 2014 - 14:45

Here's an age old debate: Cossie V8 or Ferrari Flat-12? Only with a twist: is it possible that the Ferrari was better on tight, fiddly tracks while the Cosworth V8 can stretch its gurgling legs on the fast sweeps?

 

I was watching several classic F1 races the other day on Youtube/BBC F1 from the early 70s to the early 80s - the heyday of the Cosworth DFV British teams versus the might of the Ferrari flat 12 and from 1979 onwards the 1.5 Renault turbo. Now, you would have thought on fast, sweeping tracks from this era - lets say 1970 to 1980 - that the powerful Ferrari flat 12 would crush the Cosworth DFV V8 to a pulp, and that the nimble, agile Cossie V8 would smash the Italian stallions face in on tight, twiddly tracks. And yet, curiously, the opposite seems to apply. For example, although Ferrari Flat-12 won the first Austria GP at the superfast old Osterriechring in 1970, never again would its flat 12 be victorious in the Styrian hills. The "boxer" Ferrari also never won a championship grand prix on the long straights and incredibly quick corners of Buenos Aires and Silverstone. And yet the supposedly less powerful Cossie V8 won every race F1 races at Buenos Aires from 1972 to 1981 (apart from 1976 when there was no grand prix!), likewise Silverstone provided victory spoils for Keith and Mike's V8 in  1967, 1969, 1971, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 and 1981. Not only that, but although Niki Lauda gave the Scuderia a win at the old flat out blasts of Hockenheim in 1977, in 1978/1979/1980 the ground effect British Cossie kit cars dominated with Ferrari nowhere to be seen. At the other end of the scale, on tight circuits such as Long Beach, Monaco, Watkins Glen and Zolder provided gloria forza de Italia: Ferrari won at Monaco in 1975, 1976 and 1979; at Long Beach in 1976, 1978 and 1979; Watkins Glen was Ferrari's track in 1975, 1978 and 1979 and there were the spoils for the red cars at Zolder in 1975, 1976 and 1979. When I read Gilles Villeneuve:a pictorial record (Haynes publishing, 2007), commentary on the photos was provided by former Autosport editor Quentin Spurring. Quentin notes that at the 1979 British grand prix that the lack of tight corners at Silverstone denuded the torque advantage of the Flat 12, while for the 1980 season, the awful handling 312 T5 was also embarrassing in a straight line as Quentin notes that the development Cossie DFV used by the likes of Williams, Brabham and Ligier (who dominated that season) pumped out more power than the Flat 12 engines. Interesting.........

 

Is the logical answer this: the Ferrari's wide flat 12 had a smoother torque delivery and better centre of gravity thus providing better traction and handling on tight, twisty tracks such as Monaco, Zolder and Long Beach. However, because the DFV was a tall, narrow engine it gave the British teams less frontal area and better aero balance which is crucial on a track with high speed corners like Silverstone, Buenos Aires and the Osterriehcring where high speed handling stability is advantageous. Also, the narrow dimensions of the Cosworth DFV allowed the British teams to make a car with a narrower track and slippery body, which is why the DFV won at the flat out blast of Hockenhiem from 1978 to 1981.

 

Any thoughts?



Advertisement

#2 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 1,849 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 15 January 2014 - 18:52

The Ferrari wins on sound alone.



#3 gazacland123

gazacland123
  • New Member

  • 25 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 15 January 2014 - 19:01

The Ferrari wins on sound alone.

Depends if you like the Siberian husky howl of the flat 12 or the staffy bull terrier growling gurgle of the cossie V8.........check out Didier Pironi onboard at Hockenhiem and Watkins Glen 1978.....truly great sound.



#4 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,713 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:17

The Ferrari Matra wins on sound alone.

Fixed.  :wave:



#5 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:39

Even firing multiples of 3,  - I.M.O. - def' sound most musical

 

- from an F750 Trident or H2R or 20B triple rotor - through to a Napier Sabre 24..

 

Maybe a best sounding engine thread is warranted..


Edited by JAW, 16 January 2014 - 06:54.


#6 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 5,853 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 19 January 2014 - 07:02

Even firing multiples of 3,  - I.M.O. - def' sound most musical
 
- from an F750 Trident or H2R or 20B triple rotor - through to a Napier Sabre 24..
 
Maybe a best sounding engine thread is warranted..

There is one somewhere. Nostalgia I think.
I hate Rotarys but the 20B at full song is not a bad noise. Tridents too sounded ok. Though give me the big V twin snarl of a Vincent.

#7 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 19 January 2014 - 07:22

Nice, off-beat staccato cadence, but sounds lazy, bit too Harley D- like - less purposeful..

 

.. unlike say Walkinshaw qualifying the snarling, rising to bass-bellow Group A XJ-S Jag at Bathurst `85...



#8 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,057 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 19 January 2014 - 09:44

For me its probably a Nascar engine.. or a angry Straight 5 or the BRM V16.



#9 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 19 January 2014 - 10:08

V12 Jag in full cry.. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M9I7GWllPFY



#10 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 19 January 2014 - 11:07

More triple music..  http://www.youtube.c...h?v=1N5rm0glYwY



#11 indigoid

indigoid
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 19 January 2014 - 16:23

angry Straight 5 or the BRM V16.

 

These. The Group-B Audis sounded lovely.

 

Not as good as the BRM though... Nick Mason's exceptional recording of the latter still makes my hairs stand up on end every time. More car engine sounds should be recorded by people who actually know how to record stuff!



#12 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,057 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 19 January 2014 - 17:29

Nothing wrong with an iconic V12 either



#13 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 20 January 2014 - 00:34

& for blandest sound, turbo-4..

 

Good driving skills though..

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=4D-JtvVvESc



#14 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,589 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:45

Leaving aside this curious obsession with the sound, the comparison between Ferrari 12s and DFVs is all about the relative size of horses from Maranello and Northampton.  I doubt if Ferrari ever had more power than Cosworth, and the bulkier and heavier 12s lost out that way as well.  Had Ferrari supplied some other teams, they might have been persuaded to develop their engines more, but the Ferrari culture of the day did not allow for anyone saying that the engines weren't good enough.



#15 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:42

Fair point, Reg..

& @ BRG, ambient sound is an essential quality I.M.O., I could not bear to own a crap sounding vehicle..



#16 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 873 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 21 January 2014 - 08:38

Or maybe the worst-sounding performance car of all time - Subaru WRX.

#17 JAW

JAW
  • Member

  • 225 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:07

Agreed, it sounds like a poorly tuned VW beetle  - with a hole in its exhaust pipe...



#18 Spinnekop

Spinnekop
  • Member

  • 46 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:48

Fixed.  :wave:

Only had the opportunity to hear late 60's early 70's sports cars driven in anger, what a sound incredibaly loud  :eek: The Ferrari 312PB sounded amazing though. Wailing flat 12 :up: 



#19 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 1,849 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:38

Several years ago I was at Sears Point with a DP car. The IRL cars were the main event. I was eating breakfast and getting ready for the day when I hear an absolute angel's chorus coming from the track. It was a different enough noise that I got up from the table to see what the hell it was. Vintage cars were on track and someone had a late 70's F1 Ferrari. It was going slow and being driven poorly, but it's sound put everything else there that weekend to shame. 

 

Having said that, the 16 cylinder BRM must have been impressive as well.



Advertisement

#20 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 4,514 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:48

I can remember at  Hethel when they first fitted the Lambo V12 in place of a v8, everybody streamed out of the officeblock to listen.



#21 indigoid

indigoid
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:33

Agreed, it sounds like a poorly tuned VW beetle  - with a hole in its exhaust pipe...

 

Not anymore. Not for a few years actually. Subaru fixed the collector pairings or something => no more "boxer throb" regardless of fart-can size


Edited by indigoid, 07 February 2014 - 05:33.


#22 carlt

carlt
  • Member

  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 07 February 2014 - 14:02

 

Maybe a best sounding engine .........

 

 



#23 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 1,849 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 07 February 2014 - 17:25

Was testing at Willow Springs many moons ago. I was in the truck doing something while the car was running. I have a habit of always following the car with my ear even if I'm not actually watching it. As it came down the front straight the engine noise changes _massively_. It was _loud_. I ran to the door of the trailer and saw that a P-51 had skimmed over the top of our car as it went down the straight at about 200 mph faster than what we were doing. He was nice enough to give us a little wing wiggle as he climbed away and when on to other prey.



#24 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 3,496 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:10



#25 carlt

carlt
  • Member

  • 1,053 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:01

Love it - 

They beat the 'Garagistas' that time 



#26 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 3,496 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:02

Love it - 

They beat the 'Garagistas' that time 

 

'Garagistas'? Like Supermarines and Rolls-Royce?