88 replies to this topic

[tsrwright]

From a CAMS press release

The Confederation of Australian Motor Sport (CAMS) has partnered with Curtin University to identify an electronic information management system enabling the motor sport community to capture, share, search and retrieve its information, including long-term preservation of archives.

System users would be the sport’s governing body, motoring enthusiasts, various motor sport clubs and associations as well as historians.

CAMS Chief executive Eugene Arocca is delighted CAMS and Curtin University will be working together to preserve motor sport archives, which to this point are largely held by CAMS, a handful of car clubs or in private locations by motor sport enthusiasts.

“In this day and age we would like to think there is a better way of capturing and preserving Australia’s rich motor sport history for all. So the focus will be on creating an online platform so we can better update and maintain information in the future. We certainly wouldn’t like to see all that history lost. We also feel that greater accessibility to this valuable information for all motor sport lovers is important to retaining and promoting interest in our sport.” Said Arocca.

Arocca is hopeful that a suitable electronic information management system will result from the project, which could then lead to a worldwide informational management system designed specifically for motor sport.

“CAMS believes capturing Australia’s motor sport history is a priority and feel we need to take a leadership role in this area. We have an expectation that the result of this partnership could have a big impact on the retention of motor sport historical information worldwide.” Arocca added.

Dr Pauline Joseph, a lecturer in records and archives management at Curtin University is leading this research initiative. Her research interest includes the sustainability of community-based information management practices, needs and information seeking behaviour.

 

This is a magic development.

Still a long way to go but when asked about CAMS archives etc at the HSRCA in Sydney last year Arocca said "History is very important to our sport".

[275 GTB-4]

Good to see they may be coming out of hibernation

[Catalina Park]

CAMS in charge of history, god help us! They have rewritten history enough in the past that giving them total control over the sports history could be tragic. (Who won the 1937 AGP?  ) 

[Ray Bell]

Well...

 

That particular part of history was rewritten (along with the 1928 '100 Miles Road Race' being posthumously named 'Australian Grand Prix') long before CAMS ever came along.

 

Of course, they have never done anything to correct it and perpetuate the error.

[tsrwright]

I think the French made rewriting of GP history into an art form. Ditto Americans re AAA titles. We are mere children in this respect.

Thing is to have a mechanism to preserve material. This idea is for anybody to be able to upload documents in a disciplined fashion. Then history can be based on the evidence, so much of which no longer exists. There is no suggestion CAMS might control anything although I am sure you are just joking.

Mst give credit where it is due

[terry mcgrath]

The mention of the digital archives is mentioned in another thread but can't locate it but certainly this name was mentioned "Dr Pauline Joseph, a lecturer in records and archives management at Curtin University" the person who mentioned it was Tom Benson Western Australia but I have heard nothing else about this so it will be interesting as to what happens I will chase Dr Pauline Joseph to see what she is actually thinking of doing

terry

[Paul Hamilton]

Pauline Joseph is a lecturer in records and archive management at Curtin University in WA.  She has experience in the digital recording of paper based records notably in respect of a project which has captured some of the collection of the WA Maritime Museum.  Her interest in motor sport records was prompted by an approach made by Tom Benson who is Chairman of the CAMS Historic Panel in WA. She has recently been granted 6 months study leave from the university in order to conduct research  on the broader information management problem faced by community based organisations using the motorsport community as a pilot study. 

 

When Pauline's current project came to the attention of CAMS CEO, Eugene Arocca, he took steps to provide some financial support for her and to link her work to a long standing but somewhat moribund proposal for the digital recording of the extensive collection of paper based files held by CAMS in respect of cars now classified for use in historic motor sport.  The extent of those files makes it a pretty massive project but the records contain a wealth of valuable historical information and the CAMS Historic Commission has long been concerned about their vulnerability.  The FIA Historic Motor Sport Commission has also taken recent steps to develop a motor sport knowledge centre and archive.  I represent CAMS on the FIA Commission and have been seeking funding assistance from the FIA for the CAMS digitisation project on the basis that, once recorded, the information would be shared.  It is our hope that Pauline's project will facilitate a detailed scoping of the CAMS project and provide a better basis for our approach for FIA funding assistance.

 

As Terry has pointed out this is all about recording history not creating it!!  For a variety of sometimes quite valid reasons CAMS may not be universally popular but it is a genuinely community based rather than commercially based organisation.  It is surely best placed to coordinate an exercise of this nature within Australia as is the FIA on an international basis.  I would therefore hope that anyone of us who may be in a position to assist with this work might set aside the common petty grumbling we so often hear about the organisations and simply help us to get on with it.

[tsrwright]

Good one, Paul. Might also encourage some of the 'historic' organisations to develop more interest in 'history'

Edited by tsrwright, 19 January 2014 - 04:52.

[D-Type]

I live on the opposite side of the globe from Australia so my view is based on hearsay.

 

The basic idea of centralising and digitising historical records is an excellent idea.  The advantage of digitisation is that  a single piece of paper can be duplicated in the owner's, local club and central archives and in university collectyions.

 

But is CAMS the best organisation to manage the central record?  CAMS, and the Historic Commission in particular, have come in for quite a bit of criticism over the years for:

- being overly bureauratic and officious in their administrative process;

- their acceptance rules being unduly restrictive;

- their andministrative charges being excessive, and the like. 

In essence, they have the reputation that rather than putting the interests of participants and spectators first they are seen as a self-serving bunch of "blazers" on an ego trip.

 

However, we must recognise that there are only a limited number of people prepared to volunteer their time for the administration of the sport and setting up another organisation would stretch tis small pool of (sometimes limited) talent even thinner.

[Michael Ferner]

I think the French made rewriting of GP history into an art form. Ditto Americans re AAA titles. We are mere children in this respect.

Thing is to have a mechanism to preserve material. This idea is for anybody to be able to upload documents in a disciplined fashion. Then history can be based on the evidence, so much of which no longer exists. There is no suggestion CAMS might control anything although I am sure you are just joking.

Mst give credit where it is due

 

Hear, hear!

[275 GTB-4]

I live on the opposite side of the globe from Australia so my view is based on hearsay.
 
The basic idea of centralising and digitising historical records is an excellent idea.  The advantage of digitisation is that  a single piece of paper can be duplicated in the owner's, local club and central archives and in university collectyions.
 
But is CAMS the best organisation to manage the central record?  CAMS, and the Historic Commission in particular, have come in for quite a bit of criticism over the years for:
- being overly bureauratic and officious in their administrative process;
- their acceptance rules being unduly restrictive;
- their andministrative charges being excessive, and the like. 
In essence, they have the reputation that rather than putting the interests of participants and spectators first they are seen as a self-serving bunch of "blazers" on an ego trip.
 
However, we must recognise that there are only a limited number of people prepared to volunteer their time for the administration of the sport and setting up another organisation would stretch tis small pool of (sometimes limited) talent even thinner.

Frankly Duncan, NO, we have other much larger and more capable organisations set up to handle meta data etc such as National Archives, National Library, National Film and Sound Archive that are all well practised and much farther down the digitization track than CAMS taking baby steps.

 

My concern is that it will be a half-arsed effort constrained by budget, scope and lack of knowledge. But hey! I live in hope

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 20 January 2014 - 00:53.

[tsrwright]

But is CAMS the best organisation to manage the central record?  CAMS, and the Historic Commission in particular, have come in for quite a bit of criticism over the years for:

- being overly bureauratic and officious in their administrative process;

- their acceptance rules being unduly restrictive;

- their andministrative charges being excessive, and the like. 

In essence, they have the reputation that rather than putting the interests of participants and spectators first they are seen as a self-serving bunch of "blazers" on an ego trip.

 

Well, that's a bit rich if its from the land of the RAC and the MSA ...

 

Not that there isn't plenty truth in it what is said but how about getting your own house in order archive-wise?

[D-Type]

The story was about CAMs and not the RAC/MSA

[tsrwright]

The story was about CAMs and not the RAC/MSA

 

So how is the MSA going with preserving the material it got from the RAC and making it available for research?

[tsrwright]

Frankly Duncan, NO, we have other much larger and more capable organisations set up to handle meta data etc such as National Archives, National Library, National Film and Sound Archive that are all well practised and much farther down the digitization track than CAMS taking baby steps.

 

My concern is that it will be a half-arsed affort constrained by budget, scope and lack of knowledge. But hey! I live in hope

 

The organisations you mention have much bigger and broader concerns than the minutiae of sporting history and I don't think that anything proposed that CAMS is currently supporting will be 'half-arsed' or mere 'baby steps'. The National Library declined to take any of Graham Howard's material.

 

This is a very bright idea, expertly conceived, with great potential, which CAMS new management has taken up very rapidly, indeed within a few weeks of being introduced to it.

 

To give an idea of the quantity of material that is being lost, and of the scale of the problem of managing it in the future, have a look at the picture I will post of the Graham Howard Collection which Garry Simkin and I took over after Graham's death last year. There are anywhere between 50,000 and 100,000 pages of material which are not very elegantly housed but they are safe for the moment.  It is all available for research by arrangement but it is a considerable job to control this.

 

Think of all the stuff that others have that will potentially die with them and do the numbers. A community effort to digitize it all is the only hope.

 

 

Edited by tsrwright, 20 January 2014 - 01:11.

[Paul Hamilton]

Thanks for your support, Terry.

 

The budget issues are far from over and, although the effort will certainly not be 'half-arsed', we cannot claim to have the wisdom of Solomon deployed on the subject so we cannot give any guarantees as to the outcome.  The task is a huge one and I suspect that the enormity of it may only now be becoming clear to Pauline.  However, as you point out, none of the real experts in the field are in any way interested in motorsport issues and, if CAMS were not to support Pauline and seek to move things along, nothing at all would be likely to happen.  We should all be thankful to Pauline, to Tom Benson for prompting her interest and to Eugene Arocca for giving the project his support.

 

I can never understand why negativity concerning CAMS is so strong that, when the organisation takes positive steps like this, the situation can still be presented in a negative fashion by the traditional 'nockers'.  As in any other largely volunteer staffed sporting authority CAMS certainly does have its fair share of 'blazers on an ego trip' which leads to periodic blunders and creates frustration for the rest of us.  However, the current healthy state of historic motor sport in Australia must surely be regarded as a credit for CAMS in at least some respects and most of those of us who give our time to the organisation could not reasonably be regarded as justifying Duncan's 'blazers' comment. While I have certainly been a CAMS supporter and worked within the organisation for many years my personal competitive involvement also extends back some 50 years much of that at the sharp end.  That surely gives me a pretty fair perspective on the sport from both a participant and an organisational viewpoint and I find Duncan's suggestion that my involvement may have been 'self serving' to the exclusion of 'the interests of participants and spectators' to be quite offensive.  Most of the people I have worked with  within CAMS are also a long way from being 'blazers on an ego trip'  and many of those are often to be found on this forum usually with pretty positive and constructive comments.

 

The bottom line here is simply that CAMS has stepped forward when no one else did.  If they are not seen as competent to manage the exercise who else would be that might have a real interest and understanding of the issues?

[PaulineJ]

Hi everyone,

 

Just got my access to the TNF Forum to post a response and engage in this discussion with you.

 

Firstly, thank you to Terry Wright for starting this discussion on the forum and for pointing out the magnitude of the collection and task at hand.

 

Also, thank you to Paul Hamilton for introducing me and for providing the background to the research work.

 

I have started a Face Book site titled Australian Motor Sport History Archives (AMSHA) to commence providing updates to the research initiative and engage the motoring community on the research moving forward. Thank you to Thomas Benson for sharing a link to the Face Book site at https://www.facebook.com/amsha.aus?ref=hl. I encourage you to join me on FB.

 

We have to make a start to manage the motoring community’s information assets, whether it is with a cultural institution or with CAMS. An aspect of this research is to explore how we can partner with cultural institutions outlined by Duncan such as the National Archives, Library and Museums. Terry Wright highlights this point clearly when he shares that the State Library did not want any of the Graham Howard collection. What can we deposit as part of the Legal Deposit Act to the Library needs to be investigated?

 

I am an advocate for sustainability and not to duplicate good work done by cultural institutions. Where possible we should leverage on the expertise of our cultural institutions. As part of this research, discussions are underway with cultural institutions to see how we could work with them. 

 

We will be left with a good portion of records we need to manage ourselves, as these will not be archives to be deposited with the cultural institutions. Hence, the motoring community requires to own such a system whether it be CAMS or individual clubs. From my limited understanding of the motoring community at this point the only organisation in Australia to provide the motoring community with a central repository appears to be CAMS. As Paul Hamilton points out

“The bottom line here is simply that CAMS has stepped forward when no one else did.  If they are not seen as competent to manage the exercise who else would be that might have a real interest and understanding of the issues?”.

 

I am new to the motoring community and its politics but discussions with Eugene Arocca, Paul Hamilton and Bob Cracknell to-date have been very supportive towards finding a solution to manage historic information.

 

Further, the phones calls I have received thus far from motoring enthusiasts post the CAMS press release on this research, has been encouraging and supportive. A couple of enthusiasts shared that they are exploring jointly establishing a Trust to manage the history and archives of the motoring community and are heartened to hear CAMS is providing leadership on this issue.

 

I am still researching on what happened with the Percy Markham Car Collection and do not have all the facts handy as yet but share the appended from research thus far ... 

Percy Markham a motoring enthusiast in WA sold at an ‘advantageous price’ his collection of vintage cars to the WA Museum in 19?? (about 40 years or so ago) so that there is a “record of motoring history located in Western Australia” (Geoff Moore, Veteran’s Car Club). Subsequently, in February 1990 the then State government in power in WA decided to sell these cars known as the Percy Markham Collection. Most of these cars were purchased by buyers outside of Australia and Australia lost its car heritage! 

 

Percy Markham’s experience with a cultural institution has left a ‘bad taste’ among a number of motoring enthusiast in WA. Hence, sentiments for partnering with cultural institutions especially in WA need to be approached with caution.

 

I look forward to working with the motoring community and am open to new ideas and suggestions.

 

I will be in Melbourne from the 2 to 5^th Mar and then at Philip Island from the 6^th to 9^th Mar ’14. I would be most happy to catch up and meet with you during this time. Feel free to email me to schedule a meeting at p.joseph@curtin.edu.au.

 

Gentle reminder to join Australian Motor Sport History Archives (AMSHA) on FB https://www.facebook.com/amsha.aus?ref=hl again to keep posted about the research.

 

Regards,

Pauline Joseph

[D-Type]

So how is the MSA going with preserving the material it got from the RAC and making it available for research?

I have no idea, but would be interested to know.  From all accounts, I suspect that at best the answer is on the lines of "Not a lot".  But surely this is a .topic for a separate thread.

 

My posting was prompted by the negative comments regarding CAMS that I have seen on here which I summarised with the somewhat provocative phrasing "they are seen as a self-serving bunch of "blazers" on an ego trip."  to illustrate the negativity.   I accept that the negative reports are one-sided and come from those participants, or would-be participants, who have not seen eye-to-eye with CAMS over various issues.  However, the words "Smoke" and "Fire" do come to mind.

 

Paul, this was not targeted at anybody personally but more to illustrate the image that comes over.  I apologise if I have caused offence to yourself or any other CAMS members.

Edited by D-Type, 21 January 2014 - 11:28.

[275 GTB-4]

Frankly Duncan, NO, we have other much larger and more capable organisations set up to handle meta data etc such as National Archives, National Library, National Film and Sound Archive that are all well practised and much farther down the digitization track than CAMS taking baby steps.
 
My concern is that it will be a half-arsed effort constrained by budget, scope and lack of knowledge. But hey! I live in hope

I will be making no apology for what I've said...I recognise the initial rush of enthusiasm that I have seen on many "projects"...and I have been on some big-un's.

Other Australian organisations have been working on digitization, data archiving and disaster recovery plans (got one of those CAMS?) for at least the last 20 years...clumsily at first because the technology wasn't really up to the job...but working on the problem, hence my hibernation dig above.

 

I sincerely hope that at the very least they keep control of the data....once you start handing it over to contractors or well-meaning individuals, it can be at risk.

 

As for being a knocker...include me out....me just a school of hard-knocks pragmatist.

 

PS Good luck with the task CAMS

 

 

 

[BMH Comic]

I believe the image posted by Terry of the filing cabinets from the Howard collection to a large degree, spells out in clear and unambiguous terms, the scope of the problems faced by the motor Sport community.
Some important points:

1. It is a collection critical to our future.
2. The management of it in paper form is beyond us.
3. We are the first generation with access to the tools of trade to make it universally accessible to all.
4. We are the first generation with the ability to save our heritage in a virtual world.

I (and many others before me) have come to the realisation that we are going to have to become the custodians of this information and the ones who will be putting it out to the broader community. We could keep building motor museums and library’s and fill them to overflowing and watch the material decay and repeatedly ask the cultural institutions to fund its preservation, but that won’t solve any problems. It’s not going to happen.

The Motor Sport community has a gross distrust of the cultural institutions ability to perform the task required, sometimes a deserved tag and in others a hangover from the past. Some of the modern and more progressive systems of preserving the information are controlled by commercial interests which doesn’t excite me, some are controlled by private members groups, again it doesn’t excite me either and in formats that do nothing for the long term preservation of the material. Lost any images off Imageshack lately?

I approached Dr Joseph about this problem as she is an expert on the subject, I also have easy access to her time which has resulted in three main areas of activity. Firstly identifying the scope of the problem, secondly the requirements of the motor sport community and thirdly identifying possible solutions.

That is not to say that Dr Joseph will pull a magic wand out of her extensive bag of tricks and wave her wand over our records and hey presto the problem goes away. It will be a combined effort by all to build a comprehensive and easily accessible database of Motor Sport history in this country. Thus the sustainability of community based record keeping is a major focus of her research.

CAMS has led the way by recognising the problem, has provided funding to assist and will most probably (hopefully) provide some leadership in implementing a solution to what is essentially our problem. CAMS does have an extensive record system that requires a similar solution to be found.

The FIA has the same problem as does every ASN. It’s a universal problem that could do with a universal solution. Not a solution developed in the back blocks of Wagga Wagga that will never see the light of day. Somewhere all over the world there are people with the same problem and the same criticism of the ASN, and their cultural institutions.

One of the first things that we could all do to assist is to understand the problem. We should inscribe in our organisations charters a simple phrase,

“To preserve and promote the history of our sport for the benefit of the community”

A simple enough phrase with a lot of meaning.

Dr Joseph has a Facebook page which will be updated as to progress with the project and links to the work she is doing, I implore you all to link to the site to enable to assist in communicating the work to the wider motor sport community and to bring yourselves up to date with the happenings.

https://www.facebook.com/amsha.aus

Thomas A. Benson.
www.bmhcomic.com.au

[Paul Hamilton]

My posting was prompted by the negative comments regarding CAMS that I have seen on here which I summarised with the somewhat provocative phrasing "they are seen as a self-serving bunch of "blazers" on an ego trip."  t illustrate the negativity.   I accept that the negative reports are one-sided and come from those participants, or would-be participants, who have not seen eye-to-eye with CAMS over various issues.  However, the words "Smoke" and "Fire" do come to mind.

 

Paul, this was not targeted at anybody personally but more to illustrate the image that comes over.  I apologise if I have caused offence to yourself or any other CAMS members.

 

Thanks Duncan. 

 

I am sure it is difficult to get a balanced perspective on CAMS from a distance. There is certainly plenty of 'fire and smoke' around but there are also quite a few matchboxes in the hands of some who, in their own way, are just as self seeking as the 'blazers'.  Knocking CAMS is a popular sport down here but there are many quite positive aspects to the organisation which are often overlooked and certainly never publicised by the army of 'knockers'.  My own approach has always been that it is far more constructive to act from within the organisation than to simply sit outside carping about it.  I know that many other participants understand and support that approach even if they choose not to comment publicly or to get involved personally.  Without that sort of silent support I would never have taken on the roles I have with CAMS.

[Lee Nicolle]

I hope they get history right. This week they cannot give me correct info on upcoming events that will maybe happen in the next 3 months! One event was supposed to be going for approval from State council that the reputed promoters know nothing about. Reputedly the same day as another event30 kilometres away!

[Terry Walker]

I wonder what CAMS actually have?

 

Some years ago when I started collecting WA race results, and finding gaps in local Club records (after all, the Club is a race organiser, not a research institute, but nevertheless has a considerable archive) I contacted CAMS asking if they retained and still possesed results I was missing. I got no reply. The impression I've got from other sources is that the results which the WASCC (and presumably other promoters) forward to them after events are not retained.

 

I managed to collect something like 85-90 percent of the WA results 1901-2010 from numerous sources--newspapers, scrap books, WASCC archives--but I'll bet a like result elsewhere in Australia would be impossible. As for entry lists, programmes etc--forget it. CAMS will not have anything.

 

Threads on this forum have shown that there is a vast amount of material out and about, but it will take an enormous effort to collect and collate. One potential nightmare is if they try to put entry/results in some sort of database. I tried that on my small local scale, but the enormously variable format and style of results presentation made it impossible, so I settled for individual pdfs, which are at least searchable, and which are also easy to print out.  They are on my website, and happily, the Australian National Library takes a copy of the site once a year, and it can now be found through Trove.

 

Recent results are held on a non-CAMS website which supplies timing services, and are easy to find. I bet CAMS has not collected a copy of those resuts yet. They certainly sghould.

 

Still, anything in the right direction is better than nothing.

Edited by Terry Walker, 23 January 2014 - 10:34.

[275 GTB-4]

Threads on this forum have shown that there is a vast amount of material out and about, but it will take an enormous effort to collect and collate. One potential nightmare is if they try to put entry/results in some sort of database. I tried that on my small local scale, but the enormously variable format and style of results presentation made it impossible, so I settled for individual pdfs, which are at least searchable, and which are also easy to print out.  They are on my website, and happily, the Australian National Library takes a copy of the site once a year, and it can now be found through Trove.

Terry, a database should have been the answer for you...it has logical rules set by you and all the data input is in the same format/style etc...you can also add links to the original source material.

No argument with it will take an enormous effort to collect and collate! Cheers, Mick

[Ray Bell]

When one thinks of the truckloads of records the ARDC threw out...

 

When the clubrooms moved from Leichhardt to Amaroo Park, Ray Price told me he managed to stop them tossing records at some point. But already a lot had been tipped.

 

I was told that all the ASCC records were in the hands of one family I had a little contact with about 18 years ago, but my contact moved on. It would be a goldmine.

[Terry Walker]

My problem with databases was (1) I never got past dBase3, (2) relational databases were beyond me, (3) as the material accumulated, the number of fields needed continued to balloon beyond reason. Just the simple thing of engine capacity required ages of thought. It came as Horsepower (in the case of the RAC of WA up to 2 decimal places), cubic inches, and cubic centimetres. The same cars were often named differently in different programmes and results, eg Alfetta; Alfetta Chev; Alfa Romeo, etc.  Drivers' names were often presented differently, eg Rolly Waters, R Waters, Roland Waters. It was always tempting to "standardise" these, but a very bad idea. Rolly and Roland Waters were father and son, and which one was R Waters? An Austin 7 is notional 7 hp, but the engine during its production life more than one capacity and was still 7 hp, and what of various overbores? Using the standard cc would give false and misleading data for researchers. 

 

So the messy mass of data had to be retained according to its original text, and not in any way "adjusted". And the original text might be a newspaper clipping (often unreliable), or a roneoed result sheet, or even original handwritten timing team results (I used a lot of those in the Wanneroo section of my own Results documents).

 

All this can be sorted out with a properly constucted professional database, but it would be fairly complex to cover all the many variations, and need dedicated DPOs to enter the masses of data and check it (proof it). 

 

I think a parallel process would be needed: collect the data (number one priority, before it evaporates), digitise it into WP documents and pdfs and put them online while the database construction is underway.  Borrow photos, digitise, and put online before (or while) the photo database is created.

 

If CAMS wants an existing mess of data to play with for test purposes, results only, I'm most happy for them to use my stuff.  There's only about 1,500 pages of numbers to play with. Quite small, compared with the whole country. (My guess is that if the same percentage of results from the whole country were available, there would be about 10,000 pages.) Now work out the entry lists, and programme data, which would also have to be presented "as is" and not massaged into false consistency, and you can triple that to 30,000 pages.

 

This is a huge job by any standards, and so far I've only mentioned race data, nothing about car manufacturer data (what about Elfin's production records, Repco's engine manufacture records, race team records, promoter's records, publications data. Not to mention photo and video archive. It's endless.

 

I'd love it all happen, and be around when it does,

Edited by Terry Walker, 24 January 2014 - 02:06.

[Terry Walker]

While on the subject, what was the name of the Australian results service on-line before Natsoft? The name keeps hovering around just below memory. They pulled the plug on the service sometime around 2001.

 

**Just been told on Speedwest forum: Racetime

Edited by Terry Walker, 24 January 2014 - 03:41.

[275 GTB-4]

While on the subject, what was the name of the Australian results service on-line before Natsoft? The name keeps hovering around just below memory. They pulled the plug on the service sometime around 2001.
 
**Just been told on Speedwest forum: Racetime

Yes...one fella and his van...but did OK for quite a while before the knives came out...

[Catalina Park]

Yes...one fella and his van...but did OK for quite a while before the knives came out...

If you throw a heap of knives in the air sooner or later some of them are going to hit you.

[275 GTB-4]

If you throw a heap of knives in the air sooner or later some of them are going to hit you.

Ahhhhhh..... the jugglers lament! 

[Ray Bell]

Isn't he the bloke who's doing the Frank Gardner biography?

 

'Racetime'? 'Racefax'?

 

Never knew he threw knives...

[tsrwright]

Although I have not used Terry's material I have some idea of the problems from my own use of the 'black books'. They are absolutely essential to any history work and it is a great shame there isn't better coverage of Australia in similar fashion. The work involved is awesome and there is no question as to its value. The problem is this is only part of the story as others have suggested. Just off top of my head in the GHC, which we are going to make an effort to catalogue soon, there are:

Piles of papers from foundation of Amaroo Park and other ARDC stuff (Ray!)

Various documents such as AGP lap charts from CAMS

Assorted Mt Druitt programmes, photos, results.

Boxes of cine film unidentified

CDs of recent presentation to clubs by 'names'

Commercial and sporting press releases

Timing equipment and other material from Silverdale

Heaps of 35mm slides

Correspondence, magazine cuttings, articles about cars, drivers, engines, venues etc

Magazines by the truckload many now dumped after trying to give them away

If we sit about and whine about CAMS not a lot will happen. Terry's offer to make his work available is great and along with Graham Howard's material, and other that comes along, this is maybe the beginning of an important resource. Quite how to proceed with it all at the moment is unclear and hopefully the WA project will throw some light on this. Just for that to happen would be a good start I feel.

Edited by tsrwright, 25 January 2014 - 00:16.

[275 GTB-4]

Boxes of cine film unidentified

CDs of recent presentation to clubs by 'names'

Heaps of 35mm slides

 

Contact they NFSA...they have the expertise to take care of and catalogue the above...

http://www.nfsa.gov.au/

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 25 January 2014 - 22:24.

[Allen Brown]

Just for the record, I am delighted that this is happening.  There is so much history to preserve and it is being lost by the day as former competitors pass on and lofts and basements are cleared out.  We have to work hard and work fast.

[tsrwright]

 

 

Contact they NFSA...they have the expertise to take care of and catalogue the above...

http://www.nfsa.gov.au/

 

My first thought was 'what would they know' but I see they do have heaps of motor sport material and in the digital age it doesn't matter were stuff is.

 

Good tip, thanks.

[Catalina Park]

NFSA? Never Flamin' Seen Again!

[275 GTB-4]

Jeez Louise! it was only a suggestion...based on the "horses for courses" principle

 

The collection is not exactly UN-accessible....luke hear:

http://www.nfsa.gov....ing-collection/

[PaulineJ]

I wonder what CAMS actually have?

 

Some years ago when I started collecting WA race results, and finding gaps in local Club records (after all, the Club is a race organiser, not a research institute, but nevertheless has a considerable archive) I contacted CAMS asking if they retained and still possesed results I was missing. I got no reply. The impression I've got from other sources is that the results which the WASCC (and presumably other promoters) forward to them after events are not retained.

 

I managed to collect something like 85-90 percent of the WA results 1901-2010 from numerous sources--newspapers, scrap books, WASCC archives--but I'll bet a like result elsewhere in Australia would be impossible. As for entry lists, programmes etc--forget it. CAMS will not have anything.

 

Threads on this forum have shown that there is a vast amount of material out and about, but it will take an enormous effort to collect and collate. One potential nightmare is if they try to put entry/results in some sort of database. I tried that on my small local scale, but the enormously variable format and style of results presentation made it impossible, so I settled for individual pdfs, which are at least searchable, and which are also easy to print out.  They are on my website, and happily, the Australian National Library takes a copy of the site once a year, and it can now be found through Trove.

 

Recent results are held on a non-CAMS website which supplies timing services, and are easy to find. I bet CAMS has not collected a copy of those resuts yet. They certainly sghould.

 

Still, anything in the right direction is better than nothing.

Being the regulator of motorsport, we would expect CAMS to have a significant collection of records. The records inventory exercise planned at CAMS will provide insight to its records and archives.

 

Thank you for the heads up re the race results provided by the Clubs to CAMS. I have noted to follow up with this when we conduct the records inventory. Also, as part of this inventory I have made a note to follow up on the ‘non-CAMS website which supplies timing services”. Natsoft is not archived by the National Library of Australia. I will email NLA about this and it is already added to the Australian Motor Sport History Archives (AMSHA) List created on Trove see http://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=39417.

 

I agree, these are significant records and commend you on your efforts in researching and publishing this information. I have viewed your website and as you point out, I am pleased the National Library of Australia archives it. I have added your website to the AMSHA List on TROVE.

 

Yes, there is vast amount of information relating to motorsport and it would require the community’s participation to capture and register the information where possible. This research makes a start in finding out what, who, why and how about the information practices of the motorsport community. I am gathering good information from this thread and thank you all for contributing.

[PaulineJ]

Just for the record, I am delighted that this is happening.  There is so much history to preserve and it is being lost by the day as former competitors pass on and lofts and basements are cleared out.  We have to work hard and work fast.

 

Thank you

 

I agree, we have to make a start and raise awareness that it is an issue and we need the community to support us.

 

The electronic media in which these current records and archives are increasingly being created will not last like paper if we take too long to act. Technological, software and format obsolescence will make this information inaccessible in future.

Edited by PaulineJ, 27 January 2014 - 06:37.

[275 GTB-4]

Thank you [/size]
 
I agree, we have to make a start and raise awareness that it is an issue and we need the community to support us. [/size]
 
Electronic media in which current these records and archives are increasingly being created will not last like paper if we take too long to act. Technological, software and format obsolescence will make this information inaccessible in future. [/size]

A belated welcome Pauline...some comments, your strategic plan obviously needs a "keep pace with technology, format changes etc strategy".

 

Microfilm lasts at least 100 years if stored correctly and is less prone to hungry dust/paper mites and spontaneous combustion like paper! (so, whilst old school, good for backing up important items eg CoD)

 

Good to see the action taken to archive NATSOFT/RACETIME data, hopefully they may even be able to recover previously discarded data sets? Cheers, Mick

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 27 January 2014 - 06:52.

[PaulineJ]

A belated welcome Pauline...some comments, your strategic plan obviously needs a "keep pace with technology, format changes etc strategy".

 

Microfilm lasts at least 100 years if stored correctly and is less prone to hungry dust mites and spontaneous combustion like paper! (so, whilst old school, good for backing up important items eg CoD)

 

Good to see the action taken to archive NATSOFT/RACETIME data, hopefully they may even be able to recover previously discarded data sets? Cheers, Mick

 

Mick, agree that the long-term preservation strategies need to keep pace with technology so that information is accessible in future. Also, agree about the microfilm option.

 

Here is a link to the ScanPro 3000 Digital Microfilm Equipment (DME) that allows preservation both in microfilm and as a digital copy. It also has Optical Character Recognition (OCR) functionality to allow free text searching of the scanned contents. See http://www.microfilm.net.au/. There is a YouTube clip demostrating the DME.

 

Cheers,

Pauline

[275 GTB-4]

Mick, agree that the long-term preservation strategies need to keep pace with technology so that information is accessible in future. Also, agree about the microfilm option.
 
Here is a link to the ScanPro 3000 Digital Microfilm Equipment (DME) that allows preservation both in microfilm and as a digital copy. It also has Optical Character Recognition (OCR) functionality to allow free text searching of the scanned contents. See http://www.microfilm.net.au/. There is a YouTube clip demostrating the DME.
 
Cheers,
Pauline

Nice toy...would like to see how faithful/accurate it is at OCR...often the Achilles Heel of these machines.

The buzzword used to be "Future Proof"...easier said than done, vigilance and constantly looking ahead and transitioning in an orderly fashion whilst validating results...NOT EASY!

So is there plans for a dedicated facility? (facilities, for redundancy?)  Something that could maybe generate some income to defray the ongoing costs 

[PaulineJ]

Nice toy...would like to see how faithful/accurate it is at OCR...often the Achilles Heel of these machines.

The buzzword used to be "Future Proof"...easier said than done, vigilance and constantly looking ahead and transitioning in an orderly fashion whilst validating results...NOT EASY!

So is there plans for a dedicated facility? (facilities, for redundancy?)  Something that could maybe generate some income to defray the ongoing costs 

Just started on this research project Mick, hence we are at the very early stages. Before making recommendations, an understanding of the information resources, its contents, quantity, storage and systems needs to be gained. Thus, the focus now is to conduct a records inventory and an information audit of a select few Clubs, see details on AMSHA’s Face Book site at

https://www.facebook.com/amsha.aus.

You can access the record inventory form and audit tool used at this phase on Dropbox at: https://www.dropbox....7ip2/_kQ3CHu6qS
We are likely to have a few storage repositories but with options for an enterprise wide search functionality linking these repositories. 

[275 GTB-4]

any news Dr Joseph?

[PaulineJ]

Great to see your interest on this research, Mick.

 

See updates posted on AMSHA's FaceBook site at https://www.facebook.com/amsha.aus on the following:

 

* RM audit and records inventory exercise

* Questionnaire being prepared to find out about the  information need and information seeking behaviour of motorsport enthusiasts

* Update on AMSHA's list on TROVE. See news re Natsoft.

[Ray Bell]

Can it be viewed without sinking to the level of Facebook?

 

Please...

[PaulineJ]

Hi Ray,

I decided using FaceBook for this research to reach the wider motor sport community as possible using a common social media platform they are familiar with to engage with them.

I have cut and paste what was posted on FB here for your easy reference.


Update on RM Audit and Inventory Exercises:
Five of the 6 Clubs invited to participate in the research to conduct the records management audit and the records inventory exercises have consented to participate. One Club has completed its records management audit and has commenced with its records inventory exercise. Great outcome and well done!

I understand the Clubs are reliant on volunteers and 3 of the Clubs have indicated that they lack resources to complete the records inventory. If you are able to assist, please contact your Club and offer your assistance with this project. It has been recommended that Committee members in each Club be tasked to complete the records inventory for the records relevant to their role.

Work in progress: Information need and seeking behaviour of motor sport enthusiasts:
An online questionnaire aimed at motor sport enthusiasts is in the final stages of drafting. On Tuesday, 11 February ’14 it will be emailed to a select panel of motor sport enthusiasts for comment and feedback. The feedback will be incorporated in the final version of the survey. We are hoping to have this survey published for enthusiasts to complete on 24 Feb ’14. As an incentive to complete this survey an Apple iPad-Air or similar tablet devise is being considered.

Updating AMSHA’s List on TROVE, see http://trove.nla.gov.au/list?id=39417
I have been in contact with the National Library about getting all the websites on the above list archived by PANDORA and be TROVED.

One of the significant websites on this list is Natsoft Race Results at http://racing.natsoft.com.au/results/. The appended response was received from the National Library re Natsoft.

“We registered and selected the Natsoft website in 2011 for inclusion in the Pandora archive. We contacted the organisation for permission but received no reply as such we closed the title.”

I now have the contact details for a person at Natsoft and will be following up on this in a day or so.

I was aware that the VSCC’s website at http://nla.gov.au/nla.arc-129514 and Terry Walker’s website at http://pandora.nla.gov.au/tep/129515has also been archived.

I am informed that:
• consideration for archiving the WASCC’s website at http://www.wascc.com.au/ and the Motor Museum of WA at http://motormuseumofwa.asn.au/ will be sent to the State Library of WA for comment.
• the National Library will register consideration for archiving the Comic Book’s website at http://bmhcomic.com.au/ and the Motorsport Archive at http://www.motorsportarchive.com/motor-sport-archive.html.
• Wikipedia sites are not archived by PANDORA.
• private Forums with a login are not archived so as not to encroach on privacy issues, hence AutoSport is not archived. I note that AutoSport at http://www.autosport.com/, has a public and private component and will follow up to understand why the public aspect is not archived. I guess the response would be along the lines of … the posts are made by users with a login, hence their permission needs to be sought. Will get confirmation on this.
• the Jack Brabham site at http://www.jackbrabham.com/index.html was registered in 2012 and the National Library were not able to secure permission for that site.

 

Regards,

Pauline

[Ray Bell]

Pauline, I don't use Facebook and never will use Facebook...

 

I don't believe I am alone in that view.

 

Originally posted by tsrwright

.....Piles of papers from foundation of Amaroo Park and other ARDC stuff (Ray!).....

 

From the foundation of Amaroo Park? Okay...

 

What I was referring to was the truckloads of stuff Ray Price told me was taken to Tempe tip when the Leichhardt clubrooms closed. He did manage to save a lot of stuff, but much is gone forever.

 

In that sense, Amaroo is recent history, though Oscar Glaser's time (Amaroo Park Sporting Country Club, was it not?) could be in there I guess.

[275 GTB-4]

One of the significant websites on this list is Natsoft Race Results at http://racing.natsoft.com.au/results/. The appended response was received from the National Library re Natsoft...
 
“We registered and selected the Natsoft website in 2011 for inclusion in the Pandora archive. We contacted the organisation for permission but received no reply as such we closed the title.”... ditto

and you can bet they didn't follow up with anything but the one POC they had!
 

• the National Library will register consideration for archiving the Comic Book’s website at http://bmhcomic.com.au/ and the Motorsport Archive at http://www.motorspor...rt-archive.html.

Oops! I think a certain BMH enthiusiast might not be happy with being Comic Booked...
 

• the Jack Brabham site at http://www.jackbrabham.com/index.html was registered in 2012 and the National Library were not able to secure permission for that site.

 

Sad that possibly our greatest motor racing icon has a commercially oriented web presence that may not want to play?...

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 10 February 2014 - 04:59.

[tsrwright]

By the way, the National Library was invited to get its Loose Fillings digitally but declined.

 

T