144 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

On a rare visit to the Autosport front page I see they have an article titled "Top drivers who never won the F1 title".  As I stopped my subscription when I found I never visited the site, can I ask someone with a subscription to please post the Autosport list?

 

Mine?  In no particular order:

 

Stirling Moss

Froilan Gonzalez

Tony Brooks

Peter Collins

David Coulthard

Ricardo Patrese

Mark Webber

John Watson

Jacky Ickx

Eddie Irvine

Rene Arnoux

Gerhard Berger

Felipe Massa

Clay Regazzoni

Rudolph   Rubens Barrichello

Carlos Reutemann

Lorenzo Bandini

Juan Pablo Montoya

Bruce McLaren

and?

 

It gets difficult doesn't it?

Edited by D-Type, 17 June 2014 - 11:32.

[Barry Boor]

And where, pray tell, is the name DAN GURNEY?  Surely close to the top of any such list.

[D-Type]

Whoops!  Missed him. 

 

Now who else have I missed?

[pilota]

No Gilles Villeneuve?

[BRG]

Whoops!  Missed him. 

 

Now who else have I missed?

Err, wasn't there some French-Canadian bloke?

 

Not to mention Francois Cevert.

 

EDIT: damn, beaten to it...

Edited by BRG, 17 January 2014 - 21:00.

[Richard Jenkins]

On a rare visit to the Autosport front page I see they have an article titled "Top drivers who never won the F1 title".  As I stopped my subscription when i found I never visited the site, can I ask someone with a subscription to please post the Autosport list?

 

Mine?  In no particular order:

 

Rudolph Barrichello

 

 

Rudolph Barrichello?!

 

Well not mentioned above;-

Gilles Villeneuve, Didier Pironi, Ronnie Peterson, Tom Pryce, Johnny Herbert, Jacques Laffite.

 

And of course, as it's non F1 champtions, Tazio Nuvolari, Achille Varzi, Dario Resta, Bernd Rosemeyer etc. etc.

[midgrid]

Autosport's list:

 

25. Jacques Laffite

24. Carlos Pace

23. Michele Alboreto

22. Rubens Barrichello

21. Gerhard Berger

20. David Coulthard

19. René Arnoux

18. Wolfgang von Trips

17. John Watson

16. Clay Regazzoni

15. Carlos Reutemann

14. Francois Cevert

13. Jean Behra

12. Chris Amon

11. Juan Pablo Montoya

10. Felipe Massa

9. Didier Pironi

8. Tony Brooks

7. José Froilán González

6. Jacky Ickx

5. Ronnie Peterson

4. Dan Gurney

3. Robert Kubica

2. Gilles Villeneuve

1. Stirling Moss

[Kingshark]

1. Sir Stirling Moss

2. Gilles Villeneuve

3. Carlos Reuteman

4. Francois Cevert

5. Didier Pironi

6. Tony Brooks

7. José Froilán González

8. René Arnoux

9. Peter Collins

10. Felipe Massa

11. Juan Pablo Montoya

12. Gerhard Berger

13. Mark Webber

14. David Coulthard

15. Wolfgang von Trips

16. Jacques Laffite

17. Rubens Barrichello

18. Ricardo Patrese

19. John Watson

20. Ralf Schumacher

 

Honorable mentions: Patrick Tambay, Giancarlo Fisichella, and Jarno Trulli.

Edited by Kingshark, 17 January 2014 - 21:19.

[Les]

Surely Pedro Rodriguez was better than the Coulthards and Patreses?

[Paul Parker]

Another way of looking at this is to consider the effect that the multiple World Champions and serial race winners had on the other serious contenders.

 

Fangio won 5 titles during 1951-57, effectively stopping anybody else from being WC, (excepting Ascari in 1952/53 after Fangio missed most of 1952 due to a serious accident at Monza whilst in 1953 his Maserati was not quite the equal of Ascari's Ferrari), until he faded away in 1958, Moss' two serious accidents (1960 and finally 1962) which finished his career left Clark to dominate F1 from 1962-65 and 1967 until his death, only unreliability and the stop gap cars in 1966 preventing him from winning nearly every F1 race he contested during this period, although Brabham's 1959/60 and 1966 championships were well deserved and he and Gurney occasionally gave Clark a pasting. Later Stewart' 1969/71/73 titles could so easily have been 1968-73 but for the embronic 1968 Matra and his fractured wrist from an F2 shunt that made him miss 2 GPs, even so he finished runner-up to G. Hill, the inconsistent March 701 in 1970 and the serious health issues in 1972 despite which he still finished runner-up again.

 

Fast forward to current times and we can see that Vettel's 4 consecutive titles have seriously damaged the careers of Alonso (last world champion in 2006), Hamilton (2008) and other possible winners who have lost so much time in the face of RBR superiority, possibly permanently. It is worth noting that the last World Champion before SB was Jenson Button in 2009.  

[D-Type]

Rudolph Barrichello?! 

 

Well not mentioned above;-

Gilles Villeneuve, Didier Pironi, Ronnie Peterson, Tom Pryce, Johnny Herbert, Jacques Laffite.

 

And of course, as it's non F1 champtions, Tazio Nuvolari, Achille Varzi, Dario Resta, Bernd Rosemeyer etc. etc.

Rubens

 

I tried to leave out those whose premature death robbed them of a chance.

[LittleChris]

Very subjective isn't it

 

Moss

Peterson

Arnoux

Massa

 

That's yer lot from me !!

[ensign14]

It was good to see Gonzalez ranked so highly, the more I read about him the better he seems to have been.  The 1954 Le Mans race has a shout at being just about the greatest entry list of any race ever - I think every GP winner from something like 1949 to 1959 was in it.  And it was the Pampas Bull who shared the win.

 

Two huge misses from the list are Chiron and Fagioli.  I can only assume that drivers were ranked solely on what they showed in their WC careers, including potential, rather than their past glories.

 

I would seriously question some of the rankings though.  Pironi that high up?  Did he ever consistently beat a team-mate?   Massa's near-miss in 2008 reflects a) how good the Ferrari was and b) how bent the FIA was, Massa wouldn't have been even close to Hamilton without Mosley's cheating.  Doesn't belong.  Von Trips, to be blunt, in F1 terms, was a one season wonder in a car that was so good even a first-timer could win a race, may as well include Irvine.  Mind you, Barrichello was included, so, yes, may definitely as well include Irvine...

 

But at least it was some food for thought - and one way to think about it was where to slot in the actual champions.  Only Moss would be in the top half of a combined list, and he'd be pretty close to the very top; Gilles might be about half-way as well, with only Gurney, Ickx and perhaps Peterson as others who were better than at least a couple of champs - maybe Kubica would have been amongst them had he not been so selfish.

 

And praise where it's due.  Someone had put a lot of thought into the little capsules.  Instead of the bog-standard "he drove in x Grands Prix and came 3rd in 19xx", they were different snippets - quotes from other drivers, a precis of an individual drive of note and so on.  A very interesting way of doing it and something for the diehard to appreciate.

[garoidb]

 

Fast forward to current times and we can see that Vettel's 4 consecutive titles have seriously damaged the careers of Alonso (last world champion in 2006), Hamilton (2008) and other possible winners who have lost so much time in the face of RBR superiority, possibly permanently. It is worth noting that the last World Champion before SB was Jenson Button in 2009.  

 

I don't see how Vettel's success has cost Hamilton a title. Alonso and Button, yes. 

[ensign14]

I don't see how Vettel's success has cost Hamilton a title. Alonso and Button, yes. 

 

Without RB's huge budget distorting things, McLaren might have played it safer and made a more reliable car in 2012.  Hamilton IMO would have waltzed it.

[JAW]

Well, if it was "Who had worst luck in F1 & survived" Chris Amon would have to be right up there on that list, surely..

[elansprint72]

I'm feeling nostalgic for the time when threads like this would not see the light of day. How low can Autosport go? Um... and why are we bothering... etc.

[Emery0323]

And where, pray tell, is the name DAN GURNEY?  Surely close to the top of any such list.

 

I've always wondered - What if Gurney had stayed with Brabham through '66-'67 instead of starting the Eagle team?  Jack and Denny both won championships, while Dan & Co. were trying to make the Eagle reliable.

Edited by Emery0323, 18 January 2014 - 04:54.

[eldougo]

"Top drivers who never won F1 TITLE".....is the name of this post started by D-Type.

 

So its a bit of an ask to list ChrisAmon ,when he never won a F1 RACE let alone a title....

Edited by eldougo, 18 January 2014 - 05:20.

[Tim Murray]

Chris Amon won two Formula 1 races, which is one more than the third-placed driver in the Autosport list managed.

[ensign14]

And of course one more than one driver who won the World Championship had done at the time he won it...

[Stephen W]

This whole 'list' culture is a minefield. Personally I shudder when I see a topic about a list or lists. They are so subjective and once a poster impugns a driver then there is a real dog-fight about who is better than whom. I suppose one has to look at the age of the person who compiled Autosport's list so as to understand the thinking behind some of the high rankings of also rans.

 

The other thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is the level of competitiveness of the cars the various pilotes drove.

[Paul Parker]

I don't see how Vettel's success has cost Hamilton a title. Alonso and Button, yes. 

 

Of course this is my personal opinion but it is obvious that Hamilton's career has lost momentum and perhaps motivation, not only due to his apparent personal problems, assorted issues with McLaren and inconsistency at Mercedes Benz but also because it is over 5 years since his World Championship year and this is a long time for a man who should by now have been a double or triple champion.

[Roger Clark]

It was good to see Gonzalez ranked so highly, the more I read about him the better he seems to have been.  The 1954 Le Mans race has a shout at being just about the greatest entry list of any race ever - I think every GP winner from something like 1949 to 1959 was in it.  And it was the Pampas Bull who shared the win.

 

 

Shared, of course, with a two-time GP winner who hasn't appeared on any list.

[Allan Lupton]

I'm feeling nostalgic for the time when threads like this would not see the light of day. How low can Autosport go? Um... and why are we bothering... etc.

Same here, although being rude about Autosport smacks of biting the hand that feeds.

As someone wrote in another context, we need a thread of the worst 20 list threads offered as nostalgia.

ETA sorry Duncan (the OP) nothing personal . . .

Edited by Allan Lupton, 18 January 2014 - 09:30.

[TecnoRacing]

 

But at least it was some food for thought - and one way to think about it was where to slot in the actual champions.  Only Moss would be in the top half of a combined list, and he'd be pretty close to the very top; Gilles might be about half-way as well, with only Gurney, Ickx and perhaps Peterson as others who were better than at least a couple of champs - maybe Kubica would have been amongst them had he not been so selfish.

 

Why exactly are we calling Kubica selfish? For daring to take part in extracurricular racing outside F1, or something else? Surely if the former, the same could be said of Moss, Fangio, Clark et al...

[ensign14]

Why exactly are we calling Kubica selfish? For daring to take part in extracurricular racing outside F1, or something else? Surely if the former, the same could be said of Moss, Fangio, Clark et al...

 

For exactly that.  In the days of Clark, Fangio and Moss et al, F1 was not the be-all and end-all, obviously many of them were contracted by the same team for different genera of racing.  And of course were paid accordingly. 

 

Whereas Kubica was being paid eye-watering amounts of money to be the apex of the efforts of hundreds of people and he urinated it all away by gratifying himself.  If he wanted to go rallying in his spare time, he would have had a decade to do it after retiring from F1.

 

He had the potential to be a champion - I reckon he was on a par with Vettel, maybe a step behind Alonso and Hamilton, but definitely capable of getting even better than them all - and I wonder whether Lotus would be moribund right now had he not gone off on a frolic of his own.

[Gary Davies]

Lists, lists lists... try to keep away from 'em meself. But no one ever puts Tony Brooks high enough.

[jj2728]

G. Villeneuve

Moss

Gurney

Amon

Peterson

Brooks

[kayemod]

The only point of a list with this title is arguing about the order behind Sir Stirling.

[D-Type]

I'm feeling nostalgic for the time when threads like this would not see the light of day. How low can Autosport go? Um... and why are we bothering... etc.

If it had not been on the Autosport front page I wouldn't have bothered either.

[Andretti Fan]

Alberto Ascari.  

 

 

 

I know I know.........2 time world champ........but not F1.  

[Tim Murray]

As someone wrote in another context, we need a thread of the worst 20 list threads offered as nostalgia.

I suspect this one would feature:

 

Who's better, Mass or Massa?

 

Threads such as these have always featured on TNF.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Foyt

Mears

Unser(s)

Rutherford

Earnhardt

Petty

Johnson

Gordon(Jeff)

Kristensen

 

[Catalina Park]

Lloyd Ruby. I have been watching some Indy videos on YouTube and Lloyd was very fast for a lot of years.

[Barry Boor]

I'm not going to create any list - I had my say earlier, but my thinking on this goes thus; I imagine a driver as a team-mate to the one who actually did win the World Championship in any given year and then decide if the driver in question would actually have beaten the one who did win, if both drove the same cars.

 

I believe that if you do that, this spurious list becomes really quite short..

[JAW]

Are you suggesting that R-B ran cars of greater capability for the native German speaking driver in the team? L.O.L..

[dolomite]

Perhaps some of you lot would like to get stuck into the discussion below. If you've got plenty of time on your hands....

http://www.alternate...ad.php?t=294789

[kayemod]

Perhaps some of you lot would like to get stuck into the discussion below. If you've got plenty of time on your hands....

http://www.alternate...ad.php?t=294789

 

I opened that link, spotted "Sterling Moss", and dismissed it instantly.

[garoidb]

And of course one more than one driver who won the World Championship had done at the time he won it...

 

Are we talking about Keke? He had a non-championship F1 win in a Theodore in 1978 as well. 

[garoidb]

A while ago, I had a look at drivers who have come close to winning the WDC, but either come second or missed out late in the season. There are many who have had one serious shot at it, and not made it (Mark Webber or Felipe Massa would be recent examples). There are very few who have been serious contenders on more than on occasion, but never won. Stirling Moss is the main one, with Ronnie Peterson also possible for 1971 (albeit a distant second) and 1978. Otherwise, the guys who had multiple near misses (e.g. Prost and Mansell) eventually got one (or more).

 

Therefore, to me, Stirling Moss and possibly Ronnie Peterson are the top candidates. 

[Barry Boor]

Those two certainly fit my criteria from post # 39.

[garoidb]

Yes, do just that. But please don't stop to your favourite drivers.

 

Who else? Jacky Ickx is the only other one I can see, but with a record more similar to Peterson than Moss.

 

Moss and Peterson are not my favourite drivers, by the way.

[JAW]

For Chris Amon results, check qualifying positions & DNFs.. he had plenty good of the former & bad of the latter..

 

He did get Ford's 1st Le Mans win with Bruce McLaren too..

[LotusElise]

Robert Kubica has won an F1 race - Canada 2008 anybody?

 

He reminds me a bit of Patrick Depailler - can be extremely quick and astute, but crash-happy, heart-rules-head and no sense of self-preservation. Gilles Villeneuve was also quite a similar character, as I suspect a few on this list are. Kimi Raikonnen fakes it pretty well, but inside, he always knows exactly what he is doing, which is why he has championships and the three above don't.

 

Jacky Ickx and Ronnie Peterson are my picks. Tom Kristensen is an interesting could-have-been, and if Derek Bell had had access to better machinery in F1, who knows?

[garoidb]

Sunday morning ramblings...

 

Ickx without a doubt. There is someone shouting behind my chair: Lole, Lole, Lole... Reutemann was often in contention, with three different cars at least, and one could convincingly argue he was a better driver than some of his contemporary world champions.

 

Clay comes to mind too - I am an unapologetic fan, so conflict of interest acknowledged - but he was a very good third in 1970 (with less than a half season contested), came of course very close in 1974 and even in 1979 was competitive before Williams' order was restored. Watson (one of my favourite at the time) great on his day but doesn't belong here, as well as Patrese because he found himself in a similar situation as Reutemann's and Webber's, but when he had the opportunity (late in the day, sure) for whatever reason didn't compete.

 

The repeated inclusion of Amon in these lists is puzzling. I have only respect for the guy, even more so looking at Giraffe's photos and reports, but results are missing. Can't go much further back as my knowledge is lacking, but Brooks is obviously close to the top as well, but not sure about Von Trips, competitive just one season.

 

Massa is mentioned but Webber not, I better not comment further. And I don't think Moss would be honoured to head such a list.

 

I thought of Carlos and, to a lesser extent Clay. However, I don't believe either of them had more than one genuine near miss. Carlos had some great seasons, but never got that close to the WDC apart from 1981. He had strong seasons in 1974, 1978 and 1980 too, but he was not unlucky to lose the WDC in those seasons. For Clay, 1974 was his only real close call. There are many more drivers who have had one near miss coupled a few other strong seasons. It is not such an exclusive club. Hardly anybody has had two near misses and no WDC.

 

My original reaction, when I looked at this some months ago, was to feel that there really are not many drivers who knocked on the door of the WDC repeatedly, but never got one. It is reassuring in a way. Moss stands out as the major exception to this, and I feel Peterson's case is a little stronger than those you have mentioned.

[garoidb]

Sorry, when did Peterson have a near miss or fought for a championship win, more of the drivers I mentioned? Moss is off the chart for me, I am not even discussing him.

 

OK, if we agree Moss is the main one here I am happy. I included Peterson because he was twice second in the WDC. The others to fall into this category are Ickx (for whom a case could be made) and Barrichello (both times in dominant cars). While he was never unlucky to lose the WDC, Ronnie had more than one season of being the next guy up. That is basically the reason I have included him.

[Chocobogamer]

It's Autosport's fanboyism of Kubica that has him so high. Not being funny but Massa should be at least third on the list.. In other sports he would have been given the championship after the race fixing surfaced. This isn't an anti-Hamilton comment, just in relation to Autosport's nonsense list, he should be higher. Kubica and Webber (who I'm glad isn't on the list) both prioritised sports outside the "pinnacle" sport and got injured doing so, which helped stop them winning the DWC. IIRC Webber had a pin removed 3 races before the end of 2010, which then stopped him winning the championship. Kubica never came close.

[kayemod]

Kubica never came close.

 

 

Whilst generally agreeing with your assessment of Robert Kubica, I think that last bit is rather unfair, the boy done pretty good in 2008/9, and dare I suggest that fanboyism is colouring your over-generous rating of Felipe Massa just a little. Certainly he was very unlucky to lose to Hamilton in the way he did, but while dismissing the original list as a silly concept, I wouldn't have put Massa in the top 10.

[ensign14]

It's Autosport's fanboyism of Kubica that has him so high. Not being funny but Massa should be at least third on the list.. In other sports he would have been given the championship after the race fixing surfaced.

 

The Belgian GP was more fixed than Singapore.