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The new regs and how much different the cars will be to drive


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#1 HoldenRT

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:07

Re the Kimi's recent comments on the news page.

 

Does he know about the torque curves?  They will probably be very different to drive.  And according to most people, will be a lot more difficult to drive.  Maybe his point is he doesn't want to overthink it and just wants to get in the car and drive, but still.

 

Has he driven in the simulator yet?

 

It's one of the most interesting parts of the new season for me, how much harder it'll be to drive.  After a while, they teams will adapt and it'll become easier but in the early days especially it could be very unpredictable and raw.  Which would be a nice change for F1 lately.  The order of the cars in the pecking order, and the new regs and the new engines are the two big things for me.  Whether it's good or bad, it'll be different.
 



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#2 Igorr

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:54

It will definitely be harder than last year mainly because of the difference between the cars. For Kimi and the other experienced drivers it will probably easier to adapt than for the rookies because of their experience, obviously. The cars will have less downforce which will especially affect the high speed corners. 

 

There were some articles from the past week where they stated that Kimi was in Maranello working in the simulator, and he also said that it was extremely helpful in terms of understanding the race operations from the driver perspective and the adaptation with ERS.


Edited by Igorr, 18 January 2014 - 07:54.


#3 grunge

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:51

Re the Kimi's recent comments on the news page.

Does he know about the torque curves? They will probably be very different to drive. And according to most people, will be a lot more difficult to drive. Maybe his point is he doesn't want to overthink it and just wants to get in the car and drive, but still.

Has he driven in the simulator yet?

It's one of the most interesting parts of the new season for me, how much harder it'll be to drive. After a while, they teams will adapt and it'll become easier but in the early days especially it could be very unpredictable and raw. Which would be a nice change for F1 lately. The order of the cars in the pecking order, and the new regs and the new engines are the two big things for me. Whether it's good or bad, it'll be different.

Excellent thread...i was thinking of making something similar.

I wouldnt look into Kimi comments..he is most of the time just giving prototype answers that dont promot further questions on the subject..he likes to keep it short and you generally cant kooj too much into what he says..

All other sources,including Horner and Whitmarsh have indicated that its going to be a very different ball game for the drivers next year..

Read something interesting from Paffett a couple of days back..this is what he said.

[/bold] "It is going to be exciting, the cars are very different to what we have had for the last few years,” he noted, “The downforce level in particular is a lot less than we have had - in the past the FIA have tried to reduce that but, this year, they seem to have successfully done i - and the cars are a lot more difficult to drive, especially with the different power unit and the amount of torque that the turbo engines produce. Even the medium to high speed corners are difficult without the blown downforce we have had in recent years"[/bold]

Edited by grunge, 18 January 2014 - 08:52.


#4 SonnyViceR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:55

When they took away the traction control everyone kept saying how difficult it was going to be and how everything was going to be so awesome, but nothing changed. These cars will continue to go on rails, and it's not like it matters if you make a mistake or drive wide to gain better lap time because of all the tarmac runoff **** and obviously running in the wet is banned by the FIA...

 

The only thing I'm even remotely interested in seeing in F1 this year is the (hopeful) return of machine unreliability.


Edited by SonnyViceR, 18 January 2014 - 08:58.


#5 toofast

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:50

When they took away the traction control everyone kept saying how difficult it was going to be and how everything was going to be so awesome, but nothing changed. These cars will continue to go on rails, and it's not like it matters if you make a mistake or drive wide to gain better lap time because of all the tarmac runoff **** and obviously running in the wet is banned by the FIA...

 

The only thing I'm even remotely interested in seeing in F1 this year is the (hopeful) return of machine unreliability.

 

Previous gen cars, traction control or not, have a relatively small amount of torque for the amount of grip that they have. This year things really changed but I won't be surprised if the drivers adapt just as well. Hopefully, the changes do spice things up a bit and I will be massively disappointed if that's not the case.



#6 FPV GTHO

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:18

I think there'll be a bigger difference in car behaviour at low speed vs high speed. As well as the extra torque and likely harder Pirelli's to cope, the nature of the lost blown diffusers means most of the lost downforce was that which used to benefit them at lower speeds. 



#7 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:44

Mika Hakkinen by the way claims Kimi will beat Alonso, because his way of driving suits the new cars better than Alonso's. I'm getting curious now.



#8 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:07



Mika Hakkinen by the way claims Kimi will beat Alonso, because his way of driving suits the new cars better than Alonso's. I'm getting curious now.

This is my suspicion too. Whether or not he will be able to beat Alonso over a season is another matter.

 

Alonso is very adaptable and it won't take long for him to get on top of a different driving style. It's going to be interesting at Ferrari...



#9 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:41

Yea, Kimi was suppose to beat Massa in 2008 as well because the lack of traction control would suit him better.


Edited by Seanspeed, 18 January 2014 - 11:41.


#10 swerved

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:57

I think Kimi's comments reflect what he genuinely thinks, that more is being made of the differences than will seem apparent, he's the kind of driver who will just get in and drive it and work it out in a relatively short space of time, same with learning new circuits, Alonso is the same to some degree, though imo not quite the same degree, some drivers may try to overthink things, as said, it'll be very interesting.



#11 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:59

Mika Hakkinen by the way claims Kimi will beat Alonso, because his way of driving suits the new cars better than Alonso's. I'm getting curious now.

 

Coulthard did beat Hakkinen though   ;) . No false claims there. 



#12 MichaelPM

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:06

It's all relative. If you had a RedBull or other Renault powered EBD monster of grip then it's going to be dramatically different.

However If you had awful handling cars that would randomly switch between understeer and oversteer mid corner, like Ferrari kept coming out with for periods, then you will be glad everyone else is suffering the same. Especially if you managed to win a race in what was clearly a woefully mishandling car in Malaysia 2012... :smoking:



#13 Jovanotti

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:07

Yea, Kimi was suppose to beat Massa in 2008 as well because the lack of traction control would suit him better.

No need to get nervous  ;)


Edited by Jovanotti, 18 January 2014 - 16:17.


#14 ZionLH

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:37

Guys do u think wet weather driving will be even more restricted due to the higher torques of these engines. I remember button saying in the sim that even in 3rd and 4th gears you get wheel spin and that was in dry conditions. If these cars are gonna be difficult to drive in normal conditions , then god knows how they will be in the wet, i hope Pirelli are taking note on this aswell.



#15 HoldenRT

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:52

No idea about the wet, it's bad enough as it is.  But it will be very interesting to see how the tyres handle it overall, because they were bad enough at times even with all of the downforce and the engine mapping and everything.  I wish they could have kept V10's or 20k revving V8's.. but at least it's something new.  The onboards should be very interesting, the high revs are gone but at least there are other factors like the torque.



#16 Puhoon

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:18

Guys do u think wet weather driving will be even more restricted due to the higher torques of these engines. I remember button saying in the sim that even in 3rd and 4th gears you get wheel spin and that was in dry conditions. If these cars are gonna be difficult to drive in normal conditions , then god knows how they will be in the wet, i hope Pirelli are taking note on this aswell.

 

I don't think so. The reasons why they have cut down wet driving is visibility and aquaplaning.

 

Spinning the car in low speed is hardly a saefty issue.



#17 ZionLH

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:29

I don't think so. The reasons why they have cut down wet driving is visibility and aquaplaning.

 

Spinning the car in low speed is hardly a saefty issue.

 

I guess it comes to the tyre construction of the wet tyres (as i touched on) even though with these tyres it seems its quite difficult displacing water which has always been the case. I also think throttle mapping will play a larger role aswell but thats to be expected.



#18 Scotracer

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:33

Torque at the engine is irrelevant.

 

Tractive force at the contact patch is everything.

 

Given the V6s produce less overall power than the V8s, their torque at the rear wheel axle is lower than we have currently.



#19 DrProzac

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:40

True. They'll rev lower, the gear ratios will be different, and the torque on the wheels count. But the torque curve will be different, so it's not that easy.

 

Loss of downforce ma be a bigger problem.


Edited by DrProzac, 18 January 2014 - 13:41.


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#20 Miggeex

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:41

They've all driven so many different series. It's just like jumping to different series once again and they'll figure the cars out very fast. They're still cars with pedals and wheel. I don't expect anyone to have major problems adapting to them. 

 

Edit: All the new gadgets and procedures could be an issue for some. The driving part not that much.


Edited by Miggeex, 18 January 2014 - 13:43.


#21 ZionLH

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:44

Good point guys maybe ive over blown this situation.



#22 dau

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 13:47



Torque at the engine is irrelevant.

 

Tractive force at the contact patch is everything.

 

Given the V6s produce less overall power than the V8s, their torque at the rear wheel axle is lower than we have currently.

So why exactly were Pirelli concerned about rear tyre wear then, asking to increase both tyre width and diameter to "ensure they can cope with the demands of the new 2014 engines."?



#23 grunge

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 14:18

So why exactly were Pirelli concerned about rear tyre wear then, asking to increase both tyre width and diameter to "ensure they can cope with the demands of the new 2014 engines."?

Well technically he is right...torque at the engine is not equal to torque at the wheels..the new turbo V6s will have more or less the same HP as the V8s before them...after adjusting gearing ratios,that is.

About Pirellis request,well that could be down to a no of reasons..they could be trying to play conservative for one..also Mercedes were the chief supporters of the idea probably due to their traditionally high rear wear while the other teams shot it down..the latter wouldnt have happened if it was actually such a big deal

Edited by grunge, 18 January 2014 - 14:23.


#24 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 14:29

Yea, Kimi was suppose to beat Massa in 2008 as well because the lack of traction control would suit him better.

Which he would have if Ferrari had gone his direction with car development instead of Massa's. But let's not go there again.



#25 Gag Bueno

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 15:18

Lotus claims to have the same downforce levels as last year, are they to believe? I would say let's wait and see what the other teams have done, but I don't expect the cars being so different to drive.  

 

The only thing I'm even remotely interested in seeing in F1 this year is the (hopeful) return of machine unreliability.

 

Exactly my opinion :up:

 

And referring to the usual 2008 Kimi tro...sorry mentions, I can remember some "ear tweaking" by the mighty Luca Cordero di M. in the first half of the season especially after a certain incident in Malaysia, including references to difficulties to drive without T/C and sacking threats, even before the end of the season...  Seems to be a case of very selective memory... :p



#26 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 15:19

I don't think he says the cars won't be different, he rather suggests it won't be too difficult for the drivers.



#27 Gag Bueno

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 15:30

I don't think he says the cars won't be different, he rather suggests it won't be too difficult for the drivers.

 

You're right! The comment was more from my point of view and, to me at least, more difficultt is VERY different... :rotfl: 



#28 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 15:46

No need to get nervous. ;)

 

I don't really know what I have to be nervous about?  Oh that's right, you guys all still think I'm some Alonso fanboy or something.  Boy, this next year is gonna be rough on here. 

 

Anyways, my point was mainly that this whole 'the new rules are going to suit so and so' thing rarely ever works out like these on-paper theories suggest they might.  That Kimi example just happened to be a pretty glaring and direct recent example. 

 

I agree with the interpretation of Kimi meaning it wont be more difficult, not that it wont be different, which is obvious it will be. 



#29 Lazy

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 15:56

Torque at the engine is irrelevant.

 

Tractive force at the contact patch is everything.

 

Given the V6s produce less overall power than the V8s, their torque at the rear wheel axle is lower than we have currently.

Yeah, Button, Alonso and co. don't know what they are talking about.



#30 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 16:06

Yea, Kimi was suppose to beat Massa in 2008 as well because the lack of traction control would suit him better.

Yeah, we all know about your own foregone conclusion as well.



#31 BillBald

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 17:12

Torque at the engine is irrelevant.

 

Tractive force at the contact patch is everything.

 

Given the V6s produce less overall power than the V8s, their torque at the rear wheel axle is lower than we have currently.

 

I think the main difference is that with the V8s, wheelspin could be countered by short-shifting, since torque dropped away quickly when the engine wasn't near maximum revs.

 

With the combined turbo and electric power, short-shifting wouldn't have anything like the same effect, so a more delicate touch on the throttle pedal is needed.



#32 Spillage

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 17:50

When they took away the traction control everyone kept saying how difficult it was going to be and how everything was going to be so awesome, but nothing changed. These cars will continue to go on rails, and it's not like it matters if you make a mistake or drive wide to gain better lap time because of all the tarmac runoff **** and obviously running in the wet is banned by the FIA...

 

The only thing I'm even remotely interested in seeing in F1 this year is the (hopeful) return of machine unreliability.

Don't know about this. Every time I see onboard footage from the last TC era I'm amazed at how much easier the cars look to drive than they do today.



#33 TC3000

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 18:03

Torque at the engine is irrelevant.

 

Tractive force at the contact patch is everything.

 

Given the V6s produce less overall power than the V8s, their torque at the rear wheel axle is lower than we have currently.

 

- yes, I agree with the first two points

- you may want/need to add,  -- > at one specific rpm (and ergo road speed) to make you last statement correct in more general terms.

 

It follows, that at other times (rpm/speeds) the torque at the wheel can be higher then with the current engines, and because F1 is not a constant speed contest, this is relevant.

 

You would want to compare the torque at the wheels over a (the relevant) range of road speeds to make a statement about driveability and stress for the tyres. (a.k.a tractive effort)

So while "Peak" torque at the wheels may very well be lower, average torque (over time/the speed range of interest) may very well be higher.

 

The area under the torque at the wheels curve over time/speed in other words would be of interest.

This is perhaps the factor which led to the Pirelli's statement/consideration in regards to tyre dimensions.



#34 pikamoku

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 18:22

everybody but Kimi have said that cars will be very diferent to drive.

 

IMO drivers will not have problems to adapt, they are (mostly) the best of their bussiness.



#35 ANF

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 18:23

Re the Kimi's recent comments on the news page...
 



The comments were taken from this video, for those of you who haven't read or heard them.



#36 Nemo1965

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 18:26

There are some remarks in this thead that I've read before, in the realm of: 'Oh the current F1-cars are too easy to drive, they are on rails, and this and that.' Wrong. Old F1 cars were easy to drive slow but hard to drive fast (and dangerous on top of that). Current F1 machines are hard to drive slow and easy to drive fast. I can only admire F1 drivers - yes, even the flakked paydrivers - not tocrash much more often during the first laps out of the pits.

 

My estimation: if the car is warmed up - tyres, brakes, machinery - THEN current F1 cars are glued to the road. The problem is not driving at that speed, but breaching the gap between 'too slow to warm up the stuff' and 'crashing'.

 

The new regulations, AFAIK, will make breaching that gap harder.


Edited by Nemo1965, 18 January 2014 - 18:30.


#37 wrcva

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 19:43

James Allison's take 

 

Speaking following Fernando Alonso's first tryout of the 2014 car in Ferrari's simulator before Christmas, Allison said the engineering group had been intrigued by what the Spaniard had said about cars behaviour.

 

"Alonso has been to use the simulator and it has been interesting for us,"  "He gave us some important feedback and details that were important to the team in terms of things we can manage during practice and the race".  "During practice, the car will have more electrical power (available) and the car can run at the limit of fuel flow [which is 100kg per hour].   "In the race it is going to be different. For some races 100kg [of fuel] is more than enough, but for other races you need to be careful to manage the fuel on each lap.

"This different way of driving will need practice - to learn how best to be fast but not to use up too much fuel."  

"You need a throttle pedal that is a metre long to control the torque of the engine," he said.

 

full article: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112074

 

edit: Windsor's notes about Kimi's driving style 

 

 

 

 


Edited by wrcva, 19 January 2014 - 10:49.


#38 Donkey

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 23:30

Has Kimi actually been in the Ferrari simulator yet?

 

I thought he hated them because he gets motion sickness?



#39 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 23:34

Yea, he's spent time in the sim, according to reports. 

 

Whether he gets motion sickness or not, its probably necessary training for the coming year.  Drivers may adapt fine, but they cant just instantly know how to do everything either!


Edited by Seanspeed, 18 January 2014 - 23:35.


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#40 Ali_G

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 12:55

IMO, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of all engine regulations. Let em have as much power as they want. It would absolutely slash costs in engine development.

However, absolutely slash downforce. I mean a huge slashing in downforce levels. What we would get would be the ultimate test of drivers skill. Imagine wheel spin at 120mph. It would get to the stage where drivers would not actually want extra power because the cars would be so undriveable.

#41 Risil

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:01

You'd probably need a control tyre too.



#42 dau

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:13

IMO, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of all engine regulations. Let em have as much power as they want. It would absolutely slash costs in engine development.
[...]

What. Let me guess, you haven't had your morning coffee yet?



#43 Risil

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:18

It probably would. The 2006-2013 model was less 'make engine development cheaper' than 'stop engine development'.



#44 dau

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:29

It probably would. The 2006-2013 model was less 'make engine development cheaper' than 'stop engine development'.

I'm sorry, what? You're trying to tell me that 'stopped engine development' would be more expensive than completely open continuous engine development? Have i forgot my morning coffee?


Edited by dau, 19 January 2014 - 13:29.


#45 Risil

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:35

Stopping engine development is obviously cheaper. But is undesirable for a few other reasons, most notably "Why else would an engine manufacturer want to get involved?" Honda famously use their motorsport division as a way to train their engineers in the art of working quickly and creatively. It seems to work for them.

2014 features some very interesting engine rules mostly because Renault would've pulled its support if things had remained the same. When you're not pulling in the non-automotive brands as sponsors, and teams can't survive based on TV revenue alone, you've got to look at bringing investment in by giving the manufacturers some technical opportunities.


Edited by Risil, 19 January 2014 - 13:37.


#46 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 13:36

IMO, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of all engine regulations. Let em have as much power as they want. It would absolutely slash costs in engine development.

However, absolutely slash downforce. I mean a huge slashing in downforce levels. What we would get would be the ultimate test of drivers skill. Imagine wheel spin at 120mph. It would get to the stage where drivers would not actually want extra power because the cars would be so undriveable.

 

I kinda like that idea. Driver skill will be everything and the WDC would be more justified.

 

Yeah, I know the following sounds even sick, but:

 

Give the cars so much (almost limitless) downforce that each driver sets his individual limit meaning that not everyone would have such high limits to overcome the speed in fast corners because not everyone has the same "pass-out" limits. So each driver is his own limit how fast his lap time is and not the car. And some HAVE TO drive slower than others, otherwise they would pass out.

 

Remember Interlagos 2004 where drivers began to install a head-support at the cockpit part where they could lean their heads on?

 

Regarding Räikkönen comments: didn't Räikkönen say that it wouldn't change much? I guess he's right. The same way he was when he said back in 2012 during winter tests that the tyres didn't change THAT much, to his opinion.

 

A lot of overhyped rubbish is being made by these oh so "incredible" changes in F1 for 2014. I guess it won't change THAT much may it team-wise or drivingstyle-wise.

 

So the engine is THE factor now? Rubbish. Wasn't the Ferrari engine the strongest sometimes where, nevertheless, other teams dominated?


Edited by MetallurgicalHedonist, 19 January 2014 - 13:38.


#47 tghik

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:13

The value of the torque is important but is much less important than the torque time pickup from the driving point of view. And they will try to make it as much linear as possible for the drivers. If it's too steep the only way for the driver to control it is to "pump" the same way you pump when you break on icy road. That being said still the downforce is still the other factor that the drivers want as much as possible to make it easier to "counter" the torque, although this year the regs made it more difficult to generate the downforce I'm sure Newey will do his best again.



#48 BillBald

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:33

The value of the torque is important but is much less important than the torque time pickup from the driving point of view. And they will try to make it as much linear as possible for the drivers. If it's too steep the only way for the driver to control it is to "pump" the same way you pump when you break on icy road. That being said still the downforce is still the other factor that the drivers want as much as possible to make it easier to "counter" the torque, although this year the regs made it more difficult to generate the downforce I'm sure Newey will do his best again.

 

I think the main difference is that, with exhaust blowing, the driver got an immediate boost in downforce when he floored the throttle. That meant that he could accelerate hard with less risk of breaking traction.

 

Unless Newey gets very clever indeed, that won't happen with the new cars. The slower the corner, the less downforce will be generated, and the more torque the driver will have to control.

 

I'm expecting some sideways moments, and of course this will allow non-DRS overtaking to happen, so good times ahead!



#49 HoldenRT

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:40

Time will tell if it's hyped up rubbish or not.  And you have to remember that as time goes on, it's natural that it will become easier and easier.  After 2-3 seasons.. it'll be like how it was before.  But I expect the early days to be interesting.

 

edit - As long as the fuel saving element doesn't dominate too much.


Edited by HoldenRT, 20 January 2014 - 02:42.


#50 tghik

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 03:24

I think the main difference is that, with exhaust blowing, the driver got an immediate boost in downforce when he floored the throttle. That meant that he could accelerate hard with less risk of breaking traction.

 

Unless Newey gets very clever indeed, that won't happen with the new cars. The slower the corner, the less downforce will be generated, and the more torque the driver will have to control.

 

I'm expecting some sideways moments, and of course this will allow non-DRS overtaking to happen, so good times ahead!

 

Exactly

Newey designed the cars with clean turbulence lines better than others and he should still be able to do exact same thing this year, which still will give more downforce than other teams, however with no exhaust blowing, advantage will be less. I'm just curious what Vettel will show, he still should have an upper shelve equipement, but his bolid will not be an A+++ but only A+


Edited by tghik, 20 January 2014 - 03:24.