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The new regs and how much different the cars will be to drive


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#51 DaddyCool

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:54

Kimi almost always downplays how regulation changes affect driving. I wouldn't choose him to be a reference point honestly.



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#52 Jape65

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:34

Kimi has always been quick to adapt to change and not wasting too much energy for such discuss the issues. Maybe the changes are not in his case is not so great.



#53 Ali_G

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:35

What. Let me guess, you haven't had your morning coffee yet?


Why wouldn't it work though.

Completely open regulations on engines allied with a massive (I mean huge) slashing of downforce and grip would result in engine development being next to pointless. Give em all the fuel they want and all the CC they want.

You'll end up with the situation of practically no development going into the engines as the cars would simply be even more uncontrollable with more and more power. There would be a playoff between the weight of the engine and its power but that would be about it.

#54 Risil

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 10:17

You'd have plenty of development working on the driveability of the engine, though.



#55 redviper22

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:42

I actually think the exhaust regs may cause some problems for driving styles, particularly for Vettel, as was the case in early 2012 (especially in qualifying). He's spent the last 4 years exploiting a driving style which gets the best out of the EBD. He won't be used to such an unstable rear end.

#56 ZionLH

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:04

I actually think the exhaust regs may cause some problems for driving styles, particularly for Vettel, as was the case in early 2012 (especially in qualifying). He's spent the last 4 years exploiting a driving style which gets the best out of the EBD. He won't be used to such an unstable rear end.

 

Funnily enough Webber said the new regs will suit Vettel even more.



#57 EvanRainer

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:12

I actually think the exhaust regs may cause some problems for driving styles, particularly for Vettel, as was the case in early 2012 (especially in qualifying). He's spent the last 4 years exploiting a driving style which gets the best out of the EBD. He won't be used to such an unstable rear end.

 

And by think, you mean hope it will cause problems for Vettel.

 

And for the 100th time, early 2012 red bull struggles had nothing to do with Vettel's driving style. 



#58 redviper22

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 14:06

And by think, you mean hope it will cause problems for Vettel.

And for the 100th time, early 2012 red bull struggles had nothing to do with Vettel's driving style.


Watch and learn my friend:

http://www.dailymoti...sis-part1_sport

http://www.dailymoti...sis-part2_sport

#59 Jamiednm

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 14:14

 After 2-3 seasons.. it'll be like how it was before.  But I expect the early days to be interesting.

 

 

I don't even think it will be that. These are the World's best drivers - they'll be able to adapt quite easily to the new cars and become very competitive in them very quickly.



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#60 ZionLH

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:49

 

Fair play mate  :up: He's great at adapting though because the race after china was bahrain and he was on it and won in the process lol



#61 HoldenRT

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:04

I don't even think it will be that. These are the World's best drivers - they'll be able to adapt quite easily to the new cars and become very competitive in them very quickly.

 

I am not soley talking about drivers and how quickly they can adapt.  It's always been that way in F1, they are the best drivers, they are very skilled and yet go back to years ago and you will see drivers spinning off into the wall, flatspotting tyres, making bad overtaking moves, spinning under SC's etc etc.  Deliberately locking up brakes to end Q3 sessions etc.

 

I'm talking more about the cars and how easier they are to drive.

 

The car design, and engine design.. tyre design.. all of it as a whole.

 

We just saw the same pattern in the last 3-4 years, hopefully I am not the only one who noticed it.

 

2009.. Brawn gets a good start vs the rest but even Redbull and the rest are prone to mistakes, understanding strategies.. driver errors, reliability etc.  2010 onwards.. there were other factors like Bridgestone vs Pirelli.. but on the car and driver side.. going from being harder to drive and more unpredictable.. and then later on.. to being easier to drive with each new car that was introduced.

 

So much so.. that the last season or two was pretty much like a stroll in the park and braking late or overtaking at all seemed waaaay too easy.  Like there was no sort of doubt, no risk.. literally driving around on rails.. and the main thing was just about conserving the tyre and whether you wanted to push on this lap, next lap.. cruise for 10 laps, or push for 10 laps and then pit.  But whichever the choice.. the car and driver completely being in control.. no doubts, no risks and even to push the limts was quite safe and easy.  Going back to 2010 or 2011, it wasn't always like that.  It seemed to get worse and worse with each revision of the car.  The tyres design and understanding it, playing a big role obviously, but it's not the tyres alone.  The drivers adapt, the cars become more advanced.. the strategies are better understood, etc etc.  Becoming VERY predictable.. formation driving etc.

 

Instead of being about living by your wits and reactions, being more about everything being preplanned.. and IMO.. stale.  That's been F1 in the last year or two for me, regardless of who has dominated or not.  And I saw that, as someone where 'my team' has dominated.

 

IMO, it means more if you have cars spinning off or running wide due to unforced errors on a dry track.. and THEN if someone makes overtaking moves work.. vs when no one ever makes a mistake and there is little risk.  When everyone is on rails.  Even the lower cars, the backmarkers seem very grippy.  It's still overtaking but it's not really the same thing.

 

The regulation changes are like when you have a wild horse and you need to tame it.  It'd not just the drivers inputs that improve and adapt, but also the car setups, the understanding of the tyre, the engine maps, the aero parts.. and the core car design year in and year out.

 

And I guess I've been hoping to go back to how it was like in 2009, where it was a bit wilder.. and not so tame.  These drivers are way too good, so it always needs to be hard for them, and if you aren't going to push the limits through development, you need to find other ways.

 

The drivers don't like it when it's wild.  They want it as tame as possible.. but for the audience and the viewer.. it's a little bit different.  Their pain and frustration is our entertainment, their uncertainty is our excitement, but either way.. you at least want to feel like they have to earn it and fight for it.. as opposed to cruising around, knowing that even if they brake too late, they'll be ok.



#62 sv401

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 16:14

And for the 100th time, early 2012 red bull struggles had nothing to do with Vettel's driving style. 

 

Putting aside the usual pointless debates on this matter, the RB8 did have exhaust blowing with Coanda effect right from the first race. The problems were related to it being badly implemented - due to a rushed re-design after a last minute rule change - and inconsistently performing (that is, it produced downforce at some parts of a lap, but not at others). Therefore the RB8 is not relevant to predicting the effects of not having exhaust blowing at all. The most recent non-EBD Red Bull car is the RB5 (2009), which, however, had completely different tyres, engine, and aero regulations than the 2014 cars.
It is probably also worth noting that the two RB cars at the 2012 Chinese race weekend were in a different configuration; only Webber's one had the ramp exhaust. So, the videos posted above show a temporary "mule" version of the car that was only ever run for one race by one driver as a failed experiment (the "ramp" was proven to be the right approach, and was faster even with its initial flaws), making conclusions drawn from them not entirely fair.


Edited by sv401, 21 January 2014 - 16:24.


#63 JHSingo

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 16:34

I just hope the extra torque doesn't mean F1 becomes even more ridiculous when it comes to wet races. Otherwise Pirelli may as well not bother going to the effort of making rain tyres.



#64 BillBald

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 17:31

I just hope the extra torque doesn't mean F1 becomes even more ridiculous when it comes to wet races. Otherwise Pirelli may as well not bother going to the effort of making rain tyres.

 

The reasons they give for stopping wet races are poor visibility and aquaplaning, as well as the track being blocked with crashed cars or debris.

 

So it should be no different really, except that the drivers will have a tougher job. But there might be more debris!



#65 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:50

So Sutil has confessed that his crash was driver error and he got caught out by the extra torque while on cold tyres. Hopefully it's part of a sign that the cars are going to be a bit more wild and harder to tame.

#66 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:55

Sure, if they race in January.  :p



#67 wingwalker

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:30

Interesting bit from Rosberg in the quick q&a thing, he said that with V6 they're in "maybe 3rd" gear in what was a 1st gear chicane last year. I checked youtube and max 1st gear speed in Australia 2013  was about 115-120km/h. So if a sub 120km/h corner is a 3rd gear one then the first two gears will be rarely used, same with 8th one I guess. It's going to be a lot different, if that quote is an indication.



#68 midgrid

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:43

This all sounds very encouraging to me.



#69 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:13

Sure, if they race in January.  :p

It's certainly going to make wet weather driving harder.

#70 HoldenRT

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 06:43

The cars are definately harder to drive.. :p



#71 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:30

I just hope the extra torque doesn't mean F1 becomes even more ridiculous when it comes to wet races. Otherwise Pirelli may as well not bother going to the effort of making rain tyres.


After watching the Melbourne sessions today, I don't think that any driver has a clear advantage trying to control these poor handling, dangerously-torqued and under aero-ed beasts....its a recipe for disaster...

Ohhh...and they sound like ten cows breaking wind all at once...

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 15 March 2014 - 10:31.


#72 meister

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:33

This is the best thing about the new regulations. Have never seen them sliding and running off so much before. On worn tyres in races there should be a lot more action imo.



#73 HoldenRT

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 14:20

This isn't a thread about Kimi per se.. but it IS ironic that he's spun and crashed twice so far in the new cars.

 

More just about the theme of the post above.. about how it can be exciting to watch and spice things up.  At least until they teams start developing and improving and taming them.. by this time next year they'll be easier. and by 3 or 4 years, people will be complain and boring and predictable.. regardless if Vettel is winning another 4 in a row or not.

 

But right now, it's fun watching the drivers struggle and be tested like that.  At the end of last season, they could brake late into corners to overtake and not even worry about running wide or locking up and now.. they lock up even in clear air.  The harder it is for them, the better the competition between them is when they are actually fighting together.



#74 Risil

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 15:14

Three-quarters of Kimi's wins came from cars with traction control.

 

Er, just saying.



#75 mtknot

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 15:58

IMO, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of all engine regulations. Let em have as much power as they want. It would absolutely slash costs in engine development.

However, absolutely slash downforce. I mean a huge slashing in downforce levels. What we would get would be the ultimate test of drivers skill. Imagine wheel spin at 120mph. It would get to the stage where drivers would not actually want extra power because the cars would be so undriveable.

 

you wanted that and it happened: see massa in Q3 (ignore the fact it was dry :p



#76 mtknot

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 16:05

While it was fun to see/hear the drivers get on the throttle straight after their braking phase, the cars were seriously just on rails in the NA era due to the (relative) lack of low end power (50% less hp at lower revs). These V6's on the other hand look like they produce peak power all the way from 5k~11k. It just looks like they have instant power. I don't think the V6's from the 80s even compare because of the MGU-H - i think the MGU-H is why these cars seem so powerful. 

What i'd like to see is the FIA relaxing the fuel flow which would allow for higher boost levels. Then add the MGU-H. Imagine 1180 hp from 5k to 15k rpm. 

:p 



#77 skyfolker

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 17:56

Three-quarters of Kimi's wins came from cars with traction control.

 

Er, just saying.

Well,he drove TC cars for almost two-thirds of his career,so no major discrepancy there.