153 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

Following on from the greatest English F1 driver thread, I thought I'd start this with the aim of putting a poll up once enough names have been posted.

 

The best winless drivers I can think of are Martin Brundle and Nick Heidfeld, anyone else got any suggestions?

[olliek88]

The Hulk, natch.

[ApexMouse]

Senna, Prost or Piquet.

[Jackmancer]

Jean Behra. He won several non-championship Grand Prix, but never a championship race.

 

I did some research about this French driver, who was sadly killed in a crash at the AVUS ring, and wrote a piece on him here; http://jg-f1.com/dri...ght-jean-behra/

[garoidb]

Senna, Prost or Piquet.

 

Bruno, Nicolas and Nelsinho presumably.

[rockdude101]

Pescarolo & McNish can be added to the list, aswell.

[Risil]

Obvious choice is Chris Amon. Are we talking about official World Championship rounds or F1 races?

[MustangSally]

Derek Warwick perhaps.

 

There must be quite a few from the years of great unreliability. According to the stats he had 84 retirements from 147 starts. That doesn't add up to a lot of chances.

[Risil]

Warwick really should've won the 1984 Brazilian Grand Prix, but his suspension broke with 10 laps to go (which may have had something to do with an earlier collision with Lauda). I can't think of any other wins that slipped through his hands.

[scheivlak]

Earlier thread: http://forums.autosp...l=+best +driver

 

- in which no less than 4 earlier threads with about the same title are mentioned .....

 

 

 

If you mean F1 WDC GPs, the answer is of course Chris Amon.

[ZionLH]

Nick Heidfeld i guess. I think the closest he got to winning was the 2008 Canandian prix behind his team mate(kubica) . I can't really recall there relative race pace on that day though as i was cursing at Hamilton mostly.

[noikeee]

Warwick, Brundle, Heidfeld are all pretty interchangeable, same level... good enough drivers to have been solid #2s for years at top level and have careers along the lines of a Coulthard or a Barrichello but no giant talents lost. Bit early to say if Hulkenberg's the same or better but at this stage he is actually a solid candidate, think he'll eventually get his chance to win though.

 

I'd probably pick Amon. Or that guy that demolished Alan Jones as a team-mate in the 70s but unfortunately got killed early in his career, I can't remember if it was Pryce or Brise I always have trouble distinguishing those 2 names.

[Collombin]

I'd probably pick Amon. Or that guy that demolished Alan Jones as a team-mate in the 70s but unfortunately got killed early in his career, I can't remember if it was Pryce or Brise I always have trouble distinguishing those 2 names.

You mean Brise, although I don't think the demolition was quite as comprehensive as some make out - Zandvoort notwithstanding. Pryce did win an F1 race, but no doubt non-championship races are excluded from the OP's intentions. In that case, Amon must be streets ahead.

If Brundle is worthy of a mention then Bellof should be too, he was probably as good as Brundle.

[Amphicar]

A few more possibles: Ricardo Rodriguez, Piers Courage and (on his own estimation anyway) Tommy Byrne

Edited by Amphicar, 19 January 2014 - 15:43.

[midgrid]

Warwick really should've won the 1984 Brazilian Grand Prix, but his suspension broke with 10 laps to go (which may have had something to do with an earlier collision with Lauda). I can't think of any other wins that slipped through his hands.

 

I think he could have won the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix - he led for a while in wet conditions before Senna passed him and then his car failed.  Senna's car then failed with a handful of laps to go, allowing Boutsen to win.  It's impossible to tell if Warwick could have held off Boutsen to the end, but I think he would have had a real chance of doing so.

[Risil]

I think he could have won the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix - he led for a while in wet conditions before Senna passed him and then his car failed.  Senna's car then failed with a handful of laps to go, allowing Boutsen to win.  It's impossible to tell if Warwick could have held off Boutsen to the end, but I think he would have had a real chance of doing so.

 

Well. In an Arrows that would've been heroic.

[chrisj]

Jean Pierre Jarier was very quick on occasion, nearly won a race in a Shadow and dominated the 78 Canadian GP until the engine blew. Bruno Giacomelli is another quick guy who was good enough. He should have won the 80 USGP.

[Briz]

A few more possibles: Ricardo Rodriguez, Piers Courage and (on his own estimation anyway) Tommy Byrne

 

If he had not driven those 5 races for Theodore, Byrne could have been the best F1 driver who never participated in a F1 race

[The Kanisteri]

Mika Salo (in F1)

Edited by The Kanisteri, 19 January 2014 - 16:19.

[fisssssi]

Martin Brundle:

 

165 races

0 wins

0 pole positions

0 fastest laps

 

I don't know how he gets up in the morning...

[Jackmancer]

Martin Brundle:

 

165 races

0 wins

0 pole positions

0 fastest laps

 

I don't know how he gets up in the morning...

 

Well, if you rely on stats alone, you could say that Luca Badoer is the best driver never to score a championship point...

I think what speaks most for Brundle is that he matched Senna in F3, took gave Schumacher a challenge at Benetton.

[Risil]

And was one of the best sportscar drivers of the Group C era. The one that no small number of people remember more fondly than F1. Car racing's Carl Fogarty, if he came from East Anglia and looked like a chartered accountant.

Edited by Risil, 19 January 2014 - 16:30.

[fisssssi]

Well, if you rely on stats alone, you could say that Luca Badoer is the best driver never to score a championship point...

I think what speaks most for Brundle is that he matched Senna in F3, took gave Schumacher a challenge at Benetton.

 

I rate Brundle, I just feel bad for the guy! The stats hide the colourful career he had.

 

Even Heidfeld and Hulkenberg managed to get a pole position each under their belt.

[Disgrace]

This is a retrospective thread, Hulkenberg has no place here.

[sopa]

The Hulk, natch.

 

Hulkenberg, the best podiumless driver? Or is it Pierluigi Martini?

[Kingshark]

Most podiums without a win;

 

1. Nick Heidfeld

2. Stefan Johansson

3. Chris Amon

4. Martin Brundle

5. Eddie Cheever

6. Jean Behra

7. Romain Grosjean

8. Luigi Villoresi

9. Andrea de Cesaris

10. Derek Warwick

[Jackmancer]

Most podiums without a win;

 

1. Nick Heidfeld

2. Stefan Johansson

3. Chris Amon

4. Martin Brundle

5. Eddie Cheever

6. Jean Behra

7. Romain Grosjean

8. Luigi Villoresi

9. Andrea de Cesaris

10. Derek Warwick

 

Heidfeld also has the record for most second places without a win; eight.

Never had the luck Kovalainen did have when he scored his maiden win.

[Jackmancer]

On Martin Brundle it's worth noticing that he never even lead a race, not for one single lap. (I think)

[MikeV1987]

I didn't start watching religiously until 07 or so, so I'd have to go with Heidfeld on this. Quick and consistent.

[sopa]

Most podiums without a win;

 

1. Nick Heidfeld

2. Stefan Johansson

3. Chris Amon

4. Martin Brundle

5. Eddie Cheever

6. Jean Behra

7. Romain Grosjean

8. Luigi Villoresi

9. Andrea de Cesaris

10. Derek Warwick

 

A few more years and we will add Grosjean into the discussion of "best drivers never to win" if he carries on like this? I.e. only getting minor podium places.

[MP422]

Heidfeld, Kobayashi 

[andyF1]

Amon, Brundle and Heidfeld are the names that initially spring to my mind

 

On Martin Brundle it's worth noticing that he never even lead a race, not for one single lap. (I think)

 

I think Brundle led a few laps at Canada 92 and Belgium 92. I seem to remember he had a fantastic chance to win in Canada that year, but his car failed

 

I also vaguely remember him having a very good run and possibly leading at the chaos strewn Monaco of 96, until he stuffed it into the wall.

 

Slightly off topic, but an honourable mention for Jean Alesi. How a man with that much talent only won 1 grand prix, I'll never know

[Jackmancer]

Slightly off topic, but an honourable mention for Jean Alesi. How a man with that much talent only won 1 grand prix, I'll never know

 

I think it had something to do with Alesi not choosing to sign for Williams in 1991.

[Kart15]

Stefano Modena: he got an amazing podium with third place at 1989 Monaco Grand Prix, racing with a beautiful but poor Brabham Judd and a second place in the 1991 Canadian Grand Prix with the Tyrrell Honda V10..

 

Stefan Johansson for sure, and also Mika Salo, Mauricio Gugelmin and Roberto Moreno.

[Disgrace]

Not forgetting Modena's drive in Monaco '91 as well.

[ApexOversteer]

Martin Brundle.

 

Superb driver, but somehow always end up with an uncompetitive car. His WSC title is a great reminder why he is a world class driver.

[scheivlak]

Martin Brundle.

 

Superb driver, but somehow always end up with an uncompetitive car. His WSC title is a great reminder why he is a world class driver.

The Benetton wasn't that uncompetitive 

[sabjit]

Wrote a long paragraph for Kubica.

 

Then I remembered he won a race. 

[Longtimefan]

In no particular order

 

Chris Amon

Stefan Bellof

Martin Brundle

Tom Pryce

Tony Brise

Roger Williamson

[ensign14]

If we exclude F1 non-championship race wins it's down to Amon and Behra, with a nod to Mike Spence and Karl Kling.

 

If we include them then I would suggest:

 

-Olivier Gendebien, who won Le Mans four times when it was chock-full of the cream of Grand Prix racing;

 

-Roy Salvadori, who handily beat Jack Brabham in identical cars in 1958.  Would have been a favourite for the '59 title, but he moved to Aston Martin...;

 

-Piers Courage, who won in the Tasman formula, which was as competitive as your average Grand Prix, and scored two second places for Frank Williams, a run of success that the team did not match until the Saudis filled their pockets with gold;

 

-Jean-Pierre Jarier, who would have won a couple of GPs for Shadow but for reliability, and would have won at Long Beach in 1983 had he not come across a wounded Rosberg at the wrong time. 

 

There are other drivers who showed GP-winning pace but never really got the chance, such as Peter Arundell or Chris Irwin, and Jackie Lewis might have been a contender had he not retired to a Welsh farm before he reached his peak.

 

And for all the genius that was Fangio, back in Argentina there was another driver who could match him in the town-to-town rallies.  He only had the one Grand Prix but picked up a couple of points from it, less than half-a-minute behind team-mate Gonzalez after over three hours of racing.  Just how good could Oscar Galvez have been?

[Dolph]

Slightly off topic, but an honourable mention for Jean Alesi. How a man with that much talent only won 1 grand prix, I'll never know

 

Yeah, faith can be cruel sometimes. He got 16 second places and 15 third places

[ensign14]

(NB I'm sure Salvadori won some F1 races, but low-key British ones, nothing that could be of the same sort of status of a Grande Epreuve, whereas Amon, Behra, Spence and Kling all won F1 races against at least a few other leading GP competitors.  Indeed, Spence and Behra won races that had better fields than many GPs in their respective years.)

[MustangSally]

I think he could have won the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix - he led for a while in wet conditions before Senna passed him and then his car failed.  Senna's car then failed with a handful of laps to go, allowing Boutsen to win.  It's impossible to tell if Warwick could have held off Boutsen to the end, but I think he would have had a real chance of doing so.

 

I think Warwick had some very good if not stunning performances in fairly poor cars. He did stuff one potential win himself, the 1984 street race in Dallas. The track was falling apart, just marbles, and he was too impatient. 

 

I notice this isn't a poll question . . . would that it make it more interesting?

 

I would put Heidfeld and Warwick up there because they didn't have so many opportunities. Stefan Johansson, on the other hand, got a couple of privileged drives in his time. He was a great race driver, as Enzo testified, but qualifying always let him down.

 

Yes, Jean Alesi's one win is interesting. It didn't really make any difference to his legacy. Fans loved him anyway. Whereas Kovalainen's win never made him a superstar. Is a win overrated? 

[Risil]

Yes, Jean Alesi's one win is interesting. It didn't really make any difference to his legacy. Fans loved him anyway. Whereas Kovalainen's win never made him a superstar. Is a win overrated? 

 

For the spectators, perhaps. I think the drivers quite like them.

Edited by Risil, 19 January 2014 - 23:01.

[ensign14]

I think Warwick had some very good if not stunning performances in fairly poor cars. He did stuff one potential win himself, the 1984 street race in Dallas. The track was falling apart, just marbles, and he was too impatient. 

 

 

He was convinced that the race was going to be stopped early, so wanted to be in front when that happened.  Fair to say he, like his gentlemanly team-mate Patrick Tambay, were too human to be top drawer GP drivers - and both were stymied by the French unions basically wrecking Renault's F1 run.

 

Warwick would have won at Brazil in 1984 had his suspension not collapsed, the legacy of an innocent first lap clout.

[MustangSally]

He was convinced that the race was going to be stopped early, so wanted to be in front when that happened.  Fair to say he, like his gentlemanly team-mate Patrick Tambay, were too human to be top drawer GP drivers - and both were stymied by the French unions basically wrecking Renault's F1 run.

 

Now you remind me, that was one astonishingly crazy weekend. It also started the whole animosity between Keke and Mansell, who was accused of holding everyone up. (Including Warwick.) There are lots of stories about Nigel not getting the car for the race that he had to get pole . . just the used parts bin because Elio was favoured. Who knows.

 

Yes, all politics. Tambay was a lovely guy. Warwick and Tambay should have been a 'dream team' for Renault, but it didn't work out.

[lustigson]

Most of the usual suspects already having been mentioned, I'll add a name that most,  if not all, of my fellow-Dutchmen would mention: Johannes Franciscus Verstappen. 

 

Not that I totally agree, by the way, but still.

[Jackmancer]

Most of the usual suspects already having been mentioned, I'll add a name that most,  if not all, of my fellow-Dutchmen would mention: Johannes Franciscus Verstappen. 

 

Not that I totally agree, by the way, but still.

 

Well, yes Verstappen's career could have been better if reversed; starting at Minardi, to finish his career in a championship-winning Benetton.

[tifosiMac]

I rate Brundle, I just feel bad for the guy! The stats hide the colourful career he had.

 

Even Heidfeld and Hulkenberg managed to get a pole position each under their belt.

Brundle had a nasty accident very early on in his F1 career I believe where he broke both of his ankles. He did say he lost a bit of his touch and never really gained the same reactions on the brakes and throttle after that. Its a shame really because if he had gone on to be a multiple champion, his ego would be even bigger than it is now and perhaps he wouldn't be on TV lol. Seriously though I'm not fussed on Brundle but he is popular to some and knows his stuff, so respect to that.

[ensign14]

Now you remind me, that was one astonishingly crazy weekend.

 

To give the new bugs an idea of how crazy that weekend was, Dallas saw the only occasion, in 110+ attempts, on which Piercarlo Ghinzani scored points.

 

Dallas was maybe the best street circuit on which F1 has ever raced.  Unfortunately, the tarmac was laid down too soon before the race weekend, the temperature was in the hundreds, the new tarmac melted and one of the support races was something like Trans-Am with heavyweight cars which chewed up the remnants.  Rosberg invested in a water-cooled balaclava and won with some ease.  Corrado Fabi outqualified Piquet.  Prost and Lauda both crashed and Arnoux didn't.  Mad stuff.