145 replies to this topic

[Dalin80]

We know 2012 was wrecked in Spa and Japan. Fernando would have the champion that season by a good margin...

 

All ancient history now but if you adjusted for relaibility then hamilton would have walked away with 2012.

[Kingshark]

We know 2012 was wrecked in Spa and Japan. Fernando would have the champion that season by a good margin...

 

I'm an Alonso fan myself, but I'm inclined to say that the accident in Suzuka was mostly his fault (although the overlooked reason why he started 6th in to begin with was because of the red flag in Q3). In Spa however, he was virtually a passenger.

[DanardiF1]

I'm an Alonso fan myself, but I'm inclined to say that the accident in Suzuka was mostly his fault (although the overlooked reason why he started 6th in to begin with was because of the red flag in Q3). In Spa however, he was virtually a passenger.

 

And he was looking at a podium finish in that race too... Whilst that would still mean losing points to Seb it would only have been a few, not the 18 that he lost to Seb finishing 2nd.

[0Fritz]

We know 2012 was wrecked in Spa and Japan. Fernando would have the champion that season by a good margin...

 

Compared to Sebs problems in Malaysia, Valencia, abu money, and Brasil? Id say it evens out. Evenso, even if Vettel didnt win the championship, the turn around of the RB8 was impressive, dont you think? Red Bull is a very capable team. 

Edited by 0Fritz, 01 February 2014 - 01:51.

[sennafan24]

All ancient history now but if you adjusted for relaibility then hamilton would have walked away with 2012.

Ding Ding Ding. Right answer 

 

 

 Evenso, even if Vettel didnt win the championship, the turn around of the RB8 was impressive, dont you think? Red Bull is a very capable team. 

 

It was amazing, as after Monza, Nikki Lauda and others said Seb/RB had little chance of winning the WDC. Lewis was actually ahead of Seb after Monza and ended up almost 100 points behind! RB always develop well, they have had the strongest car in every season of 2009-2013 regulations by the end of the year in my opinion.

Edited by sennafan24, 01 February 2014 - 02:01.

[MP422]

In addition to what Zava said, id say the Red Bull RB8 might qualify as a not so good car to become pace setter. One win (edit: I forgot Webbers wins that Zava pointed out) no three wins in the first 13 races of 2012, Vettel ending one minute 7 seconds behind the winning car in race 5, the Spanish GP.

 

Red Bull still won both titles, the WCC with a 60 point difference.

 

With such a history of strong come backs, a spirited in season development team, rivaled only perhaps by McLaren, it really is a bit far fetched to think RB cannot overcome these very early testing troubles.

 

(And this is on top of the fact we really have no clue if the RB10 is a 'thurkey'. Who knows, itll put a second a lap on anything else come Melbourne.)

 

 

Vettel served a drive through penalty in that race.

[CoolBreeze]

Back to the drawing board? Is the car problematic, design-wise, or is it just the Renault engines and electronics? Is it even Newey's job in that section?

[redreni]

Don't worry, the last three races will be worth double points. 

It puts Horner's recent "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one" comments in perspective, though, bearing in mind he must have known his team was going to struggle early on and would therefore need to catch up.

[Zava]

Ding Ding Ding. Right answer 

 

 

 

It was amazing, as after Monza, Nikki Lauda and others said Seb/RB had little chance of winning the WDC. Lewis was actually ahead of Seb after Monza and ended up almost 100 points behind! RB always develop well, they have had the strongest car in every season of 2009-2013 regulations by the end of the year in my opinion.

well, the end of 2012, in my opinion, was more down to a mclaren slump from japan to india. after being the 1st force in the previous 4 races, they went 3rd force in those races, behind RB and ferrari, and back to fastest for the last 3 rounds. I doubt it was the case of ferrari and RB simultaneously outdeveloping mclaren, but both just for those 3 exact races. 

 

edit: iirc, the backwards tilting front wings (which mclaren already used in 2011, I think there was footage from valencia) were banned right before japan. 

Edited by Zava, 01 February 2014 - 08:32.

[Gilles4Ever]

It puts Horner's recent "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one" comments in perspective, though, bearing in mind he must have known his team was going to struggle early on and would therefore need to catch up.

Wow, actual words, please supply me with a link to where he said "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one"

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

In addition to what Zava said, id say the Red Bull RB8 might qualify as a not so good car to become pace setter. One win (edit: I forgot Webbers wins that Zava pointed out) no three wins in the first 13 races of 2012, Vettel ending one minute 7 seconds behind the winning car in race 5, the Spanish GP.

 

Please folks, let's not forget: even in the problematic period of the season (2013) where the tyres were "crazy", the RB9 was most of the time still the best car.

 

- 2 wins out of the first four races.

- 4 wins out of the first nine races.

 

Then after mid-season, it was, of course, not only the best car anymore but THE car.

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

I would love to see Vettel winning a WDC or let's say aaalmost winning a WDC for a change when, at the same time, Alonso has 8 or 9 races like Barcelona 2013 per season and Vettel has 8 or 9 races like Barcelona 2013 in that same season!

[Acathla]

I don't mind if Red Bull would be a midfield team this year. Hope their domination spree is over for +/- 5 years, it's been too much. Love to see what Vettel can bring in a lesser car, if he can claim wins he'd have my full respect. 

[ZionLH]

well, the end of 2012, in my opinion, was more down to a mclaren slump from japan to india. after being the 1st force in the previous 4 races, they went 3rd force in those races, behind RB and ferrari, and back to fastest for the last 3 rounds. I doubt it was the case of ferrari and RB simultaneously outdeveloping mclaren, but both just for those 3 exact races. 

 

edit: iirc, the backwards tilting front wings (which mclaren already used in 2011, I think there was footage from valencia) were banned right before japan. 

I would add Lotus to that frame aswell , Kimi was consistantly up there aswell, this whole " Mclaren had the fastest car" is abit far fetched because they were too up and down all season (pace wise) Moving on to redbull, they will come back fully mid season. I think they will start off on the back foot but if they start grinding out some results and in touch with the championship . Vettel could have a " Alonso 2012 type charge " especially with those double points coming in to play.

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

Another thing (don't know whether it was mentioned or not): speaking of the other teams and their reliability, Ricciardo said in an interview that it is, of course, good for those teams getting a lot of laps. But he added that nobody knows, whether they're maybe a second behind the pace or at least really really fast...

 

And that's the thing which still buggs me: I couldn't read even once where a witness at the tests in Jerez said that the Mercedes or the Ferrari looks planted. McLaren yes, but not the Mercedes or the Ferrari. As long as that's not the case, I am still very pessimistic.

 

That means if RedBull sorts out their packaging/hybrid/engine problems, they're once again the best (if they, all of a sudden, don't have lost their "planted"-ness or "driving-like-on-rails"-ness, of course).

[P123]

Wow, actual words, please supply me with a link to where he said "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one"

“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race." -Christian Horner http://www.f1fanatic...ast-three-race/

What a surprise, he favours the same as Ecclestone..... Great way to cheapen the early part of the season. Self-interest at work.

[Exb]

The Merc looked the most planted of the lot of them on Friday morning, didn't see 1 mistake from Nico at the parts I was watching and he virtually never had to correct the car through turn 2 but he didn't seem to be pushing as hard as the McLaren or Williams. (not sure what the laps times were at that point but if it was as quick it is very impressive). The Ferrari seemed a bit twitchy through turn 2 but Fernando was taking a very different line to the others.

edit: thisvwas a reply to Metal, sorry thought it was in the Merc thread (this is what happens when I'm up all night with no sleep) to keep it slightly on topic the Red Bull team don't yet know if thete car is planted or not and can't work on updates to improve performance which the others will be doing in Bahrain and Red Bull will still be working on intallation and reliability. Also they may have to compromise the packaging so it won't be as good a car as was originally designed. I really hope they get it sorted and are competitive, it does suprise me so many people hope they mess up. I can understand people wanting there team/driver to beat them but surely there is more satisfaction (as well as better racing) if Red Bull are fighting towards the front.

Edited by Exb, 01 February 2014 - 11:30.

[sennafan24]

well, the end of 2012, in my opinion, was more down to a mclaren slump from japan to india. after being the 1st force in the previous 4 races, they went 3rd force in those races, behind RB and ferrari, and back to fastest for the last 3 rounds. I doubt it was the case of ferrari and RB simultaneously outdeveloping mclaren, but both just for those 3 exact races. 

 

edit: iirc, the backwards tilting front wings (which mclaren already used in 2011, I think there was footage from valencia) were banned right before japan. 

Yeah makes sense, I did think about those last few rounds in 2012 where McLaren were really strong, they were at least on par with RB in the final 2 rounds. I agree McLaren slumped big from Japan to India.

 

Ferrari might have had the best car Monza weekend, but Alonso's problem in qualifying prevented him from challenging for a race win. The Ferrari was better than the RB that weekend, after that it is hard to argue the Ferrari was better than the RB again in 2012. Maybe in Brazil.

[Gilles4Ever]

“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race." -Christian Horner http://www.f1fanatic...ast-three-race/

What a surprise, he favours the same as Ecclestone..... Great way to cheapen the early part of the season. Self-interest at work.

I am familiar with that and you have used quotation marks correctly in that you are using his words. You have not taken your summary of what he said, wrapped it in quotation marks and ascribed it to Horner. 

 

I am waiting for redreni to supply the link to the quote he supplied. 

[study]

Sorry Gillies, you sound like you're bullying, he first quote was just the meaning we all know that and then he supplied the full quote, theres no need to be so pedantic, this isn't a court case. I'm not sure what the point is.

Edited by study, 01 February 2014 - 13:08.

[sennafan24]

Please folks, let's not forget: even in the problematic period of the season (2013) where the tyres were "crazy", the RB9 was most of the time still the best car.

 

- 2 wins out of the first four races.

- 4 wins out of the first nine races.

 

Then after mid-season, it was, of course, not only the best car anymore but THE car.

4 wins out of 9 is still less than 50%. Plus, some think Alonso might have won at Sepang if he did not retire on lap 2. Overall the RB probably was the best car, but not by that much. Seb was the most consistent driver, which is why he had such modest points lead going into the second half of 2013.

 

Edit: To put it simply, the most consistent driver was in the most consistent car.

Edited by sennafan24, 01 February 2014 - 13:12.

[study]

Overall the best car but not by much? Are you joking, I didn't see any other team pull off a world record winning streak.

[redreni]

Wow, actual words, please supply me with a link to where he said "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one"

 

That's not how he phrased it, but it is an accurate summary of what he has been saying on this topic. It wasn't intended to be an exact quote - if you take the inverted commas out of my sentence, however, it wouldn't have made sense, hence why I used them to separate my description of Horner's comments from the rest of the sentence.

 

You can see exactly what Horner did say on this topic here:

http://www.auto-moto...en-8016567.html

and here:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112334

"I think of course the fans' opinions matter but I don't think it's any secret that I wasn't particularly in favour of it," he said.

"I can understand why the governing body and the promoter are keen to keep the championship alive, or hoping the championship is kept alive until the end of the last race.

"But two out of the last four years have gone to the last race under the previous points scoring system."

Horner actually supported the view that double points should be extended to the final few races rather than just being the season finale.

"We need to look at three for argument's sake, to take away an element of lottery over that last race," he said.

[Gilles4Ever]

Sorry Gillies, you sound like you're bullying, he first quote was just the meaning we all know that and then he supplied the full quote, theres no need to be so pedantic, this isn't a court case. I'm not sure what the point is.

I don't intend to come across as bullying. You simply cannot ascribe a direct quote to someone if they never said it. 

 

 "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one" 

 

“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race."

 

They are not the same no matter how you look at it. 

[sennafan24]

Overall the best car but not by much? Are you joking, I didn't see any other team pull off a world record winning streak.

We are discussing the first half of 2013, check the quote I replied to.

 

Overall, I agree the RB was the best car by a hefty margin in 2013.

[RedOne]

Maybe the problem is Renault is not an in-house engine supplier like Merc or Ferrari so there not as integrated into the team. Maybe this is when the advantage that Ferrari and Mercedes have in that respect comes through.

Edited by RedOne, 01 February 2014 - 13:19.

[Peter Perfect]

“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race." -Christian Horner http://www.f1fanatic...ast-three-race/

What a surprise, he favours the same as Ecclestone..... Great way to cheapen the early part of the season. Self-interest at work.

 

Hands up who thinks that's a new thing in F1. 

[0Fritz]

Please folks, let's not forget: even in the problematic period of the season (2013) where the tyres were "crazy", the RB9 was most of the time still the best car.

 

- 2 wins out of the first four races.

- 4 wins out of the first nine races.

 

Then after mid-season, it was, of course, not only the best car anymore but THE car.

 

I think that is slightly skewed by the fact his main rivals dropped the ball a few times, and a few breathtaking performances by Vettel himself where his teammate in the same car was often absolutly nowhere. Singapore was as Schumacheresque as it gets imo.

 

The main point of the poster was whether a car has turned around from not good to a winner. Red Bull couldnt hold a light to Mercs qualifying pace, but managed to give them a good run for their money after the summer break.

 

"I would love to see Vettel winning a WDC or let's say aaalmost winning a WDC for a change when, at the same time, Alonso has 8 or 9 races like Barcelona 2013 per season and Vettel has 8 or 9 races like Barcelona 2013 in that same season!"

 

Well, maybe Alonso should perform a little more consistently on saturday's for a starter, or maybe you atribute qualities to Alonso that he simply doesnt have anymore. Hes no spring chicken he was in 2006! And Vettel almost winning a wdc, or very close to losing it? I think 2009 was as good a season for Vettel as Senna's in 1993. (Thats just my opinion, not to start a discussion about that.) 2010 was the copyingbook season ending the FIA wants to have each year, and in 2012 Vettel was more than 50 points behind Alonso at the summer break. Should Alonso get an even bigger points lead?

 

But, again, we really should wait a little before saying the RB10 is a dud. Atm, we have no clue whatsoever.

[sennafan24]

 

 

 I think 2009 was as good a season for Vettel as Senna's in 1993. 

 

But, again, we really should wait a little before saying the RB10 is a dud. Atm, we have no clue whatsoever.

Agree with the latter statement, and most of your post. I still think Alonso's qualifying pace might be more down to the car than his actual ability, we will find out this year when he is directly compared to Kimi.

 

I disagree that Seb's 2009 was as good as Senna's 1993, but fair enough if that is your opinion. The Williams was stronger in 1993 than the Brawn was in 2009, as it was the best car throughout the entire year, bar a few races. Vettel also had the best car at times in 2009, a lot more often than Senna did in 1993. Senna had the 3rd best car on the grid most weekends, or at least the 3rd best engine. Senna I would say made fewer costly errors throughout the year as well, at least less than Vettel did in 2009.

 

It is a hard comparison though, and one that did take me aback a bit when you stated it. But as you said, it is all opinions.

Edited by sennafan24, 01 February 2014 - 15:44.

[0Fritz]

Agree with the latter statement, and most of your post. I still think Alonso's qualifying pace might be more the car than actually his ability, we will find out this year when he is directly compared to Kimi.

 

I disagree that Seb's 2009 was as good as Senna's 1993, but fair enough if that is your opinion. The Williams was stronger in 1993, than the Brawn was in 2009, as it was the best car throughout the entire year, bar a few races. Vettel also had the best car at times in 2009, a lot more often than Senna did in 1993. Senna had the 3rd best car on the grid most weekends, or at least the 3rd best engine. Senna I would see made fewer costly errors throughout the year as well, less than Vettel did in 2009.

 

It is a hard comparison though, and one that did take me aback when you stated it. But as you said, it is all opinions.

 

In danger of getting off topic, and perhaps we should continue this in PM but in light of the discussion of Vettel is capable of dragging an under par RB10 to glory, I think 2009 is not that different than one of Senna's best seasons. This is in no way to degrade Senna's season, but im sure a guy like you understands.

 

- They both had to face superior cars in the Brawn and the Williams. 

- They both ended the season in 2nd place.

- One had 4 wins, the other 5.

- They both had inferior engines.

 

Yes the Williams walked everyone when it was tuned right, but when it was not, it was very vunerable. 

 

 

Alain Prost was quoted as saying:

“I think that an active suspension car with traction control needs to be thrown around quite a lot, whereas I like to drive a little more quietly, perhaps using the throttle more sensitively, which perhaps is not needed quite so much in an active car”

“In the wet the car also exhibited a tendency to momentarily lock the rear wheels during downchanges. This however was alleviated with the fitting of a power throttle system at Imola ensuring that the revs could be perfectly matched when the clutch was engaged.”

 

3 of Senna's 5 '93 victories came because Prost had troubles in one way or another. Senna also used many electronic aids Vettel didnt have in 2009, and claimed Donington 93 was a piece of cake compared to his Portuguese win in 1995 (1985 of course, courtesy of Maustinsj).

And while the McLaren was not the Williams, it had better traction control and semi-auto gearbox throughout the year, and better active suspension in the last few races than the Williams, according to Patrick Head, and the MP4/8 was a new design, built by the then 2nd biggest team in F1. It wasnt a dog by any means.

 

Vettels 09 RB wasnt a bad car either, but it had flaws, and less power than the Merc powered Brawn and McLaren, wich it was fighting throughout 09. It was bad under braking and not quick through slow corners. 

Yet Vettel showed so much promise and quality drives (but he did had some flawed ones too), he was voted driver of the year 2009, and not the new world champion, by the F1 team bosses...

 

In short: I think Vettels 2009 season is comparable to Senna's 93 in more ways than one. If there was one difference, it was that Senna was more consistent. Then again, Senna was a 33 year old triple champion in 1993 whereas Vettel was just 22 in 2009.

 

With the experience he has now, im not sure whether discounting him even with a bad RB10 in the coming season, is very smart. 

Edited by 0Fritz, 01 February 2014 - 16:49.

[Maustinsj]

Not sure Senna won in 1995!

[sennafan24]

oFritz - Yeah get your points, and accept them pretty much. I would never argue McLaren was anything lower than the 3rd best car in 1993, it was a front running car no doubt.

 

I have always accepted that Senna benefited from Traction Control early in 1993, and the car improved in the later races, by any standard what Senna did at Donnington was amazing, but it is not his best drive in my opinion. Seb was very impressive in 2009, but I have always felt 2013 was when he really came of age.

 

Much like Senna in 1993, he was the finished article, If you take the Seb of 2013 and put him in the 2009 RB, things could be very interesting. Its difficult to compare eras, but I get what you mean when you notice similarities between the two seasons we discussed.

 

Seb's maturity as a driver is also one of the reasons why I also cannot discount him and RB this year.  Even if he qualifies low, he showed at SPA 2012 he can fight through the field.

[Otaku]

That would be Portugal 85, Senna's 1st win.

[GhostR]

I don't intend to come across as bullying. You simply cannot ascribe a direct quote to someone if they never said it. 
 
 "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one" [/size]
 
“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race."[/size]
 
They are not the same no matter how you look at it. [/size]

Agree with Gilles on this one. A more accurate interpretation of what Horner said is to follow the chain of logic through each step:

1. He Doesn't like the double points idea and doesn't think it's needed.

BUT that if it is to be forced into the sport that:

2. Having it for just the last race makes it too likely that someone could win the title simply by getting lucky in the double points race.

And that the best way to minimize that is to:

3. Have more races, such as 3, designated as double points.

However, there's no escaping number 1. his primary position is to not have the double points races at all. So the argument being bandied about that he wants 3 because it would help RBR out of their current situation just isn't supported. His first preference is no double points races.

[Kingshark]

In danger of getting off topic, and perhaps we should continue this in PM but in light of the discussion of Vettel is capable of dragging an under par RB10 to glory, I think 2009 is not that different than one of Senna's best seasons. This is in no way to degrade Senna's season, but im sure a guy like you understands.

 

- They both had to face superior cars in the Brawn and the Williams. 

 

The majority of people disagree with you. When a poll was taken in December 2009, "Who had the fastest car in this season", Red Bull got the most votes.

 

Brawn was only really better until Turkey. Silverstone onward, Red Bull were by far the best car.

[redviper22]

Vettel's 09 was very error prone. He would have won the title if he hadn't made so many mistakes. No way can you compare it to Senna's 93.

[Lazy]

So does anyone remember any thurkey from the start being changed to be a winner?

 

And u can hear the Ferrari boys talking about this:

 

"Im so glad that they didnt sign me."

"Whatever. I mean me too."

mp4 26

[redreni]

Agree with Gilles on this one. A more accurate interpretation of what Horner said is to follow the chain of logic through each step:

1. He Doesn't like the double points idea and doesn't think it's needed.

BUT that if it is to be forced into the sport that:

2. Having it for just the last race makes it too likely that someone could win the title simply by getting lucky in the double points race.

And that the best way to minimize that is to:

3. Have more races, such as 3, designated as double points.

However, there's no escaping number 1. his primary position is to not have the double points races at all. So the argument being bandied about that he wants 3 because it would help RBR out of their current situation just isn't supported. His first preference is no double points races.

 

Well, no, the best way to minimise (2) is to not have double points races. Having three of them will only triple the distorting effect of that fake rule. A person who was opposed to double points races would not want any, of course, but he would also rather have one of them than three of them.

 

And I, for one, do not believe for a moment that when Bernie pushed this idea at the strategy group meeting, Christian Horner said he was against it. I reckon he and Bernie are of one mind on this, they are both happy to have one double points race but hopeful of increasing it to three, but Horner is trying to spin it so it looks like he is on the side of 95% of F1 fans when in reality he isn't. And I think the fact that he's staring down the barrel of a string of early-season DNFs is hardly likely to make him want the double points rule scrapped, because that would only make it harder for Red Bull to catch up if and when they sort their problems out.

[0Fritz]

The majority of people disagree with you. When a poll was taken in December 2009, "Who had the fastest car in this season", Red Bull got the most votes.

 

Brawn was only really better until Turkey. Silverstone onward, Red Bull were by far the best car.

 

The majority of the world population, or 107 out of 200+ votes at this board? 

Edited by 0Fritz, 01 February 2014 - 19:13.

[Group B]

The majority of people disagree with you. When a poll was taken in December 2009, "Who had the fastest car in this season", Red Bull got the most votes.

 

Brawn was only really better until Turkey. Silverstone onward, Red Bull were by far the best car.

 

Since when was a narrow poll win from a couple of hundred votes on a forum armchair fanboys definitive proof of anything? It's patently obvious that most people here are imperfect judges, otherwise there'd be far clearer majorities on such old debates as who's the best driver. On top of that most people have agenda's, such as your one to constantly prove SV had a hyper car since day one as that's the only way he could have beaten the automotive deity that is Alonso.

[Clatter]

“It would probably be better to, rather than look at just the last race, if you’re going to end up dealing with the points, is look at more than one race. Look at three races, maybe take away an element of lottery over that last race." -Christian Horner http://www.f1fanatic...ast-three-race/

What a surprise, he favours the same as Ecclestone..... Great way to cheapen the early part of the season. Self-interest at work.

I don't think so. Read his words again. He isn't saying he is in favour, just that one race is too much of a lottery. That works for all teams, not just RB.

[SpaMaster]

That's not how he phrased it, but it is an accurate summary of what he has been saying on this topic. It wasn't intended to be an exact quote - if you take the inverted commas out of my sentence, however, it wouldn't have made sense, hence why I used them to separate my description of Horner's comments from the rest of the sentence.

 

You can see exactly what Horner did say on this topic here:

http://www.auto-moto...en-8016567.html

and here:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112334

"I think of course the fans' opinions matter but I don't think it's any secret that I wasn't particularly in favour of it," he said.

"I can understand why the governing body and the promoter are keen to keep the championship alive, or hoping the championship is kept alive until the end of the last race.

"But two out of the last four years have gone to the last race under the previous points scoring system."

Horner actually supported the view that double points should be extended to the final few races rather than just being the season finale.

"We need to look at three for argument's sake, to take away an element of lottery over that last race," he said.

I think the above quotes are very different to meaning Horner wants double points for more final races because he knew his team would struggle in the beginning.

 

[Group B]

It puts Horner's recent "I'm no freind of double points races but I want three of them instad of one" comments in perspective, though, bearing in mind he must have known his team was going to struggle early on and would therefore need to catch up.

 

Seriously? Even if he knew they were struggling and has huge sway with Bernie and decided to quietly ask Bernie to make more double points races at the end of the season, do you honestly believe he would, totally uneccessarily, come out and say it in public, when it would inevitably lead to conspiracy allegations and potentially bring the team even more bad press?

[Kingshark]

The majority of the world population, or 107 out of 200+ votes at this board? 

 

Do you have a bigger sample size to prove your position?

 

 

On top of that most people have agenda's, such as your one to constantly prove SV had a hyper car since day one as that's the only way he could have beaten the automotive deity that is Alonso.

 

Yeah, because I'm sure this "agenda" existed back in 2009.   

 

Simply because the poll result does not fit your p.o.v. does not mean that it is an evil conspiracy against SV. 

 

In 2009, Vettel lost the championship with a car that was at least equal to the best. No need to be ashamed about it. Hamilton and Alonso did the same in 2007, Schumi in 2006, and Kimi in 2008. No driver is perfect, not even your golden boy.

Edited by Kingshark, 01 February 2014 - 20:05.

[0Fritz]

Do you have a bigger sample size to prove your position?

 

 

 

Yeah, because I'm sure this "agenda" existed back in 2009.   

 

Simply because the poll result does not fit your p.o.v. does not mean that it is an evil conspiracy against SV. 

 

In 2009, Vettel lost the championship with a car that was at least equal to the best. No need to be ashamed about it. Hamilton and Alonso did the same in 2007, Schumi in 2006, and Kimi in 2008. No driver is perfect, not even your golden boy.

 

This is getting too off topic so I suggest we continue this conversation in PM. I did discover Red Bull had testing issues in 2009 as well, they stopped because of gearbox overheating issues. Does anyone have more info on that? When they fixed it, they were good in testing, until the Brawn BGP came online. Brawn only used 3 cars during the season, where McLaren made about 8 tubes. Button ran the same car from Australia to Brasil. It really was an amazing car, and with better funds it probably wouldv been untouchable. It was voted car of the year at the Autosport awards btw, by the readers of Autosport. 

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Brawn_BGP_001

[SophieB]

So far away from the thread topic as to be past saving.