Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 10 votes

Renault problems are catastrophic


  • Please log in to reply
2876 replies to this topic

#2401 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,405 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 01 March 2014 - 20:00

Who hates Caterham? Everybody seems to be supporting them (I sure am) but they are slow, pointing this out is not hating them.



Advertisement

#2402 MustangSally

MustangSally
  • Member

  • 482 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:19

"If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong"

(can't remember who the hell said this)

 

 

It was Oscar Wilde who said, "When two people agree, one of them is unnecessary'.

 

However, this thread has now polarised into best and worst scenarios and I can only see that evidence points to the latter. So, what next for Renault?

Pull out or pile everything in?'

 

I thought that Pat Symonds comments were quite interesting when asked about Renault's problems. Along with the general downsizing of Renault Sport, he commented that 'they probably didn't have the budget'.

 

Now, one suspects, Rob White will have to go back to Renault board and ask for the same level of people and resources that its competitors have piled in. However, it's a difficult one. What kind of financial hit is Renault taking for the current debacle? I can't believe that Fernandes or Tost are going to shell out 20m for engines that don't work. Lotus was already trying to negotiate the price down. And in a  catastrophic season, how many customers would defect to other manufacturers? Cosworth decided it needed at least three teams to make an F1 project viable.

 

When KERS came along, Williams bought a hybrid power company. At the moment, Renault is trying to deal with a myriad outside suppliers. Honda is throwing money at McLaren as a dedicated works team, emulating Merc and Ferrari. Is Renault prepared to buy back into Enstone, for example?

 

There is no doubt Renault could fix things, but will take money. Or will Renault simply cut their losses?



#2403 ssilviu

ssilviu
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:34

Renaults engines are the most expensive. And they have the biggest number of clients ... How is it possible that ... "they probably didn't have the budget"?


Edited by ssilviu, 02 March 2014 - 10:36.


#2404 kraduk

kraduk
  • Member

  • 375 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:44

Renaults engines are the most expensive. And they have the biggest number of clients ... How is it possible that ... "they probably didn't have the budget"?

 

revenue doenst = budget



#2405 turssi

turssi
  • Member

  • 2,062 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 02 March 2014 - 14:25

They need to allocate a fifth of their revenue just for upkeep of their directors and administrators. Another 20% to shareholders. That leaves 60 percent for maintaining the installations and operations.

Also the F1 program is probably running at a deficit and funded partly by marketing. So it's easy to imagine the company president limit the available resources.

Anyway, the Renault power unit problems to me are now identified as linked to the Kinetic ERS and the re-application of the recovered energy. Ferrari pilots have said that they feel that the driveability needs to be improved, while Merc seems to have this under control. I'd say it's catastrophic for Renault not to be able to run the KERS to 100%.

#2406 enotsne

enotsne
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 02 March 2014 - 14:42

Hello again.

Like to say it was a great test and we now go to Melbourne full of enthusiasm, but alas - not the case.

To be fair. Many of the problems were not Renault/PU related, but most of the problems we faced involved fire/heat damage which is time consuming to rectify and in our case damaged components we wouldn't normally carry in numbers to a test.

We used a new exhaust system for this test and it failed at the collector on the first day and caused some damage to the bodywork and the cooling system. We fitted the existing exhaust design that had been trouble free and that failed in the same spot causing a bit more damage.

During the break between tests, the internal side pod ducting was changed to duct ambient airflow around the ICE (it was previously 'post radiator' airflow). It appears that by ducting lower temperature air over the engine (and the exhaust), it altered the expansion of the first runner, causing weld failure.

We borrowed Red Bulls vast collection of power tools and hammers and modified the radiator surround and partially blocked the ambient air duct and it seems to have solved that issue. A more elegant solution should be sorted by Melbourne.

Todays running ended early and saw our first ICE failure but we are yet to find out what failed. Its definitely internal and terminal but may be related to fire damage on Friday that damaged the oil cooler resulting in the computer killing the ICE.

On a more positive note, it appears from our limited running that the ERS driveability issues have been improved substantially and other teams have clocked up a few miles without any ERS hardware failures. Our simulations and calculations show we should be in the game as far as pace and fuel efficiency is concerned...

I believe a new coffee machine was ordered back home for the long nights ahead but apparently it caught fire. Go figure.

Edited by enotsne, 02 March 2014 - 14:58.


#2407 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 10,924 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 02 March 2014 - 14:52

Thanks for sharing enotsne. :up:



#2408 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,405 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:13

Enotsne, you're a star. Thanks so much and good luck!


Edited by wingwalker, 02 March 2014 - 15:14.


#2409 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:31

Hello again.

Like to say it was a great test and we now go to Melbourne full of enthusiasm, but alas - not the case.

To be fair. Many of the problems were not Renault/PU related, but most of the problems we faced involved fire/heat damage which is time consuming to rectify and in our case damaged components we wouldn't normally carry in numbers to a test.

We used a new exhaust system for this test and it failed at the collector on the first day and caused some damage to the bodywork and the cooling system. We fitted the existing exhaust design that had been trouble free and that failed in the same spot causing a bit more damage.

During the break between tests, the internal side pod ducting was changed to duct ambient airflow around the ICE (it was previously 'post radiator' airflow). It appears that by ducting lower temperature air over the engine (and the exhaust), it altered the expansion of the first runner, causing weld failure.

We borrowed Red Bulls vast collection of power tools and hammers and modified the radiator surround and partially blocked the ambient air duct and it seems to have solved that issue. A more elegant solution should be sorted by Melbourne.

Todays running ended early and saw our first ICE failure but we are yet to find out what failed. Its definitely internal and terminal but may be related to fire damage on Friday that damaged the oil cooler resulting in the computer killing the ICE.

On a more positive note, it appears from our limited running that the ERS driveability issues have been improved substantially and other teams have clocked up a few miles without any ERS hardware failures. Our simulations and calculations show we should be in the game as far as pace and fuel efficiency is concerned...

I believe a new coffee machine was ordered back home for the long nights ahead but apparently it caught fire. Go figure.

 

Is there a real chance that at least one of the cars will hit the chequered flag in Melbourne?



#2410 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,887 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:35

 I believe a new coffee machine was ordered back home for the long nights ahead but apparently it caught fire. Go figure.

 

Hahaha!



#2411 Petroltorque

Petroltorque
  • Member

  • 2,225 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:46

Enotsne your postings are pure gold! Best of luck for the coming season!



#2412 dau

dau
  • Member

  • 4,835 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:49

Is there a real chance that at least one of the cars will hit the chequered flag in Melbourne?

Well, i think they keep it next to the starting line and Pastor Maldonado is on the grid, so...



#2413 opplock

opplock
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 March 2014 - 15:56

They need to allocate a fifth of their revenue just for upkeep of their directors and administrators. Another 20% to shareholders. That leaves 60 percent for maintaining the installations and operations.

 

I assume you are talking about Renault. After wondering how I have failed to invest in such a profitable company I looked at the published 2012 accounts for Renault Group. Revenue - EURO 41.3 billion, Net Income after Tax - EURO 1.7 billion, Dividends (payments to shareholders) EURO 0.4 billion.

 

20% of 41.3 billion is 8.25 billion, not 0.4 billion. What is the source of your information?



#2414 turssi

turssi
  • Member

  • 2,062 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 02 March 2014 - 16:08

@opplock: corporate talk in general. If their revenue is like that on the company scale, one can only imagine the internal pressure on better resource management. And we're not even talking about the F1 motor program!

#2415 Alburaq

Alburaq
  • Member

  • 1,107 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 02 March 2014 - 16:54

It shows how much Renault needs a real dynamic dyno that can really put cooling and exhausts in the test... 
 

Hello again.

Like to say it was a great test and we now go to Melbourne full of enthusiasm, but alas - not the case.

To be fair. Many of the problems were not Renault/PU related, but most of the problems we faced involved fire/heat damage which is time consuming to rectify and in our case damaged components we wouldn't normally carry in numbers to a test.

We used a new exhaust system for this test and it failed at the collector on the first day and caused some damage to the bodywork and the cooling system. We fitted the existing exhaust design that had been trouble free and that failed in the same spot causing a bit more damage.

During the break between tests, the internal side pod ducting was changed to duct ambient airflow around the ICE (it was previously 'post radiator' airflow). It appears that by ducting lower temperature air over the engine (and the exhaust), it altered the expansion of the first runner, causing weld failure.

We borrowed Red Bulls vast collection of power tools and hammers and modified the radiator surround and partially blocked the ambient air duct and it seems to have solved that issue. A more elegant solution should be sorted by Melbourne.

Todays running ended early and saw our first ICE failure but we are yet to find out what failed. Its definitely internal and terminal but may be related to fire damage on Friday that damaged the oil cooler resulting in the computer killing the ICE.

On a more positive note, it appears from our limited running that the ERS driveability issues have been improved substantially and other teams have clocked up a few miles without any ERS hardware failures. Our simulations and calculations show we should be in the game as far as pace and fuel efficiency is concerned...

I believe a new coffee machine was ordered back home for the long nights ahead but apparently it caught fire. Go figure.


Edited by Alburaq, 02 March 2014 - 16:57.


#2416 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,405 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 02 March 2014 - 17:01

Also, if a toaster catches fire get in touch with Peter Windsor, he has plenty of them laying around.



#2417 paulrobs

paulrobs
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 March 2014 - 00:33

There are actually 4 2-day in-season tests allowed this year (on the Tues/Weds after the GPs in Bahrain, Spain, Silverstone and Abu Dhabi (which isn't really an in-season test now they have moved that to the final race) so that might help them! (although I think they have scrapped all the straight line testing as well as the young drivers test)

 

Yes, realised this when I checked elewhere. Cheers. So many rule changes this year to keep up with!



#2418 paulrobs

paulrobs
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 March 2014 - 00:40

How do we know that Enotsne is someone who has inside knowledge? Sorry to be suspicious but I am I guess. Seemed to be well informed but it could be anyone really.



#2419 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,884 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 00:45

Hello again.
Like to say it was a great test and we now go to Melbourne full of enthusiasm, but alas - not the case.
To be fair. Many of the problems were not Renault/PU related, but most of the problems we faced involved fire/heat damage which is time consuming to rectify and in our case damaged components we wouldn't normally carry in numbers to a test.
We used a new exhaust system for this test and it failed at the collector on the first day and caused some damage to the bodywork and the cooling system. We fitted the existing exhaust design that had been trouble free and that failed in the same spot causing a bit more damage.
During the break between tests, the internal side pod ducting was changed to duct ambient airflow around the ICE (it was previously 'post radiator' airflow). It appears that by ducting lower temperature air over the engine (and the exhaust), it altered the expansion of the first runner, causing weld failure.
We borrowed Red Bulls vast collection of power tools and hammers and modified the radiator surround and partially blocked the ambient air duct and it seems to have solved that issue. A more elegant solution should be sorted by Melbourne.
Todays running ended early and saw our first ICE failure but we are yet to find out what failed. Its definitely internal and terminal but may be related to fire damage on Friday that damaged the oil cooler resulting in the computer killing the ICE.
On a more positive note, it appears from our limited running that the ERS driveability issues have been improved substantially and other teams have clocked up a few miles without any ERS hardware failures. Our simulations and calculations show we should be in the game as far as pace and fuel efficiency is concerned...
I believe a new coffee machine was ordered back home for the long nights ahead but apparently it caught fire. Go figure.


Thanks for sharing that, so informative!

Pleased to hear the ERS situation has improved, was hoping that was the case based on some decent times put in by Renault powered teams.

Good luck in Melbourne.

Advertisement

#2420 goingthedistance

goingthedistance
  • Member

  • 2,884 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 00:46

How do we know that Enotsne is someone who has inside knowledge? Sorry to be suspicious but I am I guess. Seemed to be well informed but it could be anyone really.


His/her last post was too closely aligned with events that followed to be anything other than genuine, IMO.

#2421 wonk123

wonk123
  • Member

  • 1,126 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:16

How do we know that Enotsne is someone who has inside knowledge? Sorry to be suspicious but I am I guess. Seemed to be well informed but it could be anyone really.

He could be santa claus for all I care, his posts are informative, and seem to have explanations that we hadn't heard about (eg reason for exhaust failures). Plus he is funny! :clap:



#2422 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:47

How do we know that Enotsne is someone who has inside knowledge? Sorry to be suspicious but I am I guess. Seemed to be well informed but it could be anyone really.

 

If he is not an insider, then he has a crystall ball and great knowledge about F1, cause his posts are simply great.

 

 

 

Ok, on serious matter, his nick says all!!!!! :rotfl:


Edited by Shiroo, 03 March 2014 - 07:47.


#2423 Mercedestorque1

Mercedestorque1
  • Member

  • 256 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:02

Why do you hate Caterham so much ? They do a far better job than RBR at keeping their car running, at a fraction of the budget.
I think that this should be supported.

:up:



#2424 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:29

How do we know that Enotsne is someone who has inside knowledge? Sorry to be suspicious but I am I guess. Seemed to be well informed but it could be anyone really.

No way. The things he describes are so detailed and fit so well with what have been seen the last days...he is definetly an insider.

 

I'd love Ferrari inside info would go out in the same detail (not that I have anything to criticize, Iridescent's informations are very welcome, but they are much more reserved than Enotse's).



#2425 eREr

eREr
  • Member

  • 509 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:14

Thanks again enotsne! :up:

 

It seems the actual problems are more or less under control @ Lotus, but the drivers don't look too optimistic right now based on their comments.



#2426 inxs

inxs
  • New Member

  • 7 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:14

I'm shocked anyone was advocating Renault get given more time to fix their engines, when for the last 5 years probably their biggest advantage has been their engines ability to exploit the EBD, which the other teams could not match because of engine restrictions. And now when the shoe is on the other foot, they cry that Renault should have special rules to let them fix the engine? Absolutely hilarious. They must suffer as the other teams suffered for years while Redbull exploited the rules and dominated.



#2427 Slackbladder

Slackbladder
  • Member

  • 1,245 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:21

His/her last post was too closely aligned with events that followed to be anything other than genuine, IMO.

 

I agree...unlike that other insider which was proven not so reliable.



#2428 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 7,140 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:27

I'm shocked anyone was advocating Renault get given more time to fix their engines, when for the last 5 years probably their biggest advantage has been their engines ability to exploit the EBD, which the other teams could not match because of engine restrictions. And now when the shoe is on the other foot, they cry that Renault should have special rules to let them fix the engine? Absolutely hilarious. They must suffer as the other teams suffered for years while Redbull exploited the rules and dominated.

Ferrari did get special permission to modify their engine to make it more reliable I seem to remember, but this resulted in a slight decrease in power I believe. With the issues affecting so many teams I can see why permission would be granted, although I don't agree with it totally. Renault haven't done a good enough job up until now with their engine development it seems, but that will always be the shortfall in any industry. Success in F1 is very much about the right package at the right time and it is a bit of a kick in the teeth to Mercedes at Brixworth I feel if Renault were to get more time. Then again it could have a massive effect on the season if the Renault teams suffer super bad reliability and won't be fun to watch. I want to see Red Bull fighting and losing, not sitting at the side of the track and waiting for 2015. :)



#2429 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 2,405 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:51

Ferrari did get special permission to modify their engine to make it more reliable I seem to remember, but this resulted in a slight decrease in power I believe. With the issues affecting so many teams I can see why permission would be granted, although I don't agree with it totally.

I cannot see anything wrong with allowing Renault to request/be granted a reliability update - after all it is part of the rules package.
The fact that Ferrari where allowed such an update and the suggestion they lost power as a result shows that if properly policed it should be possible to prevent a performance update to be gained as a side effect. I assume the FIA can request any data they want (such as dyno results) to verify the results of the update do not break the rules.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 03 March 2014 - 10:51.


#2430 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 2,434 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:58

It was policed in a manner that all engines were practically equal and thus diminishing the role the engine played. Red Bull had lots of fun in this time, but F1 is also about the engines, though anyone watching since mid '00 could think otherwise. I remember Benetton buying Ligier to get a hold of the Renault V10 instead of the Ford V8. Also, you had a lot of engine builders, so the problems of one engine did not affect one third of the grid. 

 

I think Renault will get on top of things, but I'm afraid the FIA will hamper Mercedes and Ferrari (and perhaps Honda) in the process.



#2431 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 7,140 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:52

The fact that Ferrari where allowed such an update and the suggestion they lost power as a result shows that if properly policed it should be possible to prevent a performance update to be gained as a side effect.

Indeed, that was part of the reason I mentioned it :)



#2432 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 1,979 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 13:37

This may be a stupid suggestion as I don't really know how these things work, but I was wondering if the FIA could collect some kind of telemetry data from the Renault powered teams (well, all teams, for that matter) to provide some understanding of the performance of the PU. Then, if reliability updates are requested, they can check to see that the new version has not been upgraded in terms of performance too. Is that possible?



#2433 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 4,256 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 13:47

So, they will still be able to modify what ever caused it on grounds of safety, nothing effected by homologation [/size]closing.


yep, as I understand it. Safety, reliability or economy are all good.

#2434 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 4,256 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 13:50

"The first precept was never to accept a thing as true until I knew it as such without a single doubt." - Rene Descartes
 
Do you have anything to say about the content of my post?  (# 2353)

yep. Descartes never met his own criterion.

#2435 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,983 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 03 March 2014 - 14:22

I'm shocked anyone was advocating Renault get given more time to fix their engines, when for the last 5 years probably their biggest advantage has been their engines ability to exploit the EBD, which the other teams could not match because of engine restrictions. And now when the shoe is on the other foot, they cry that Renault should have special rules to let them fix the engine? Absolutely hilarious. They must suffer as the other teams suffered for years while Redbull exploited the rules and dominated.

 

People always find new ways to rewrite history.  I'm not talking about this years engines or the rules or not..

 

I'm talking about why RBR dominated.  It's so silly that each person always has a new reason or excuse, and it's always to fit their agenda.

 

Redbull's turning point happened in 2009.. and it wasn't due to anything on the engine side.

 

They were the best team of the non DDD teams and then in the second half of the season, tacked on an improvised DDD themselves and dominated the second half of the season.  Start of the new season, 2010 they now had a car built from scratch to accommodate the DDD.  From then on.. there were lots of 'trick devices' that people used or not.. exhaust blowing, F Ducts and lots of other stuff.

 

But what remained a constant from 2009 until now is that under these regulations with the narrower high rear wing, and the new front wing and everything else.. Redbull have been the most aerodynamic advanced team.  It's the aero that has made Redbull so strong, and that's usually Newey's strong point.  In the first few seasons, the Renault engine was actually classed as a liability and there was talk of switching to Merc.  Last season, the aero had become so advanced that even at Spa and Monza, they had good straight line speeds and downforce.

 

With the aerodynamics that Redbull have had, they would have won championships with Ferrari or Merc engine.. so I don't know where this engine factor comes into it.  It helped in some ways (traction, fuel economy) but as always.. you have compromises in one area and strengths in the other.  Redbull's strength is aerodynamics and what you say only applies to 2011/2012 onwards.. and Redbull have been strong since the rules changed in 2009.
 



#2436 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,983 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 03 March 2014 - 14:28

It was policed in a manner that all engines were practically equal and thus diminishing the role the engine played. Red Bull had lots of fun in this time, but F1 is also about the engines, though anyone watching since mid '00 could think otherwise. I remember Benetton buying Ligier to get a hold of the Renault V10 instead of the Ford V8. Also, you had a lot of engine builders, so the problems of one engine did not affect one third of the grid. 

 

I think Renault will get on top of things, but I'm afraid the FIA will hamper Mercedes and Ferrari (and perhaps Honda) in the process.

 

Renault and Ferrari and Mercedes all run by the same rules.. and there's even been reports that Ferrari could be down big amounts of HP to Mercedes.  Does this mean it helps or hurts Ferrari?

 

Edd Straw said he expects all teams to make reliability upgrades to their engine during the season and I agree with him.  Regardless of what has happened in the last month.. think about the rule changes, the limited testing and the fact that they all did this last time already.

 

So it seems ESPECIALLY likely.. that they will do it in 2014.  Why?  Because the engines have been frozen and they haven't even run a race yet!  Race feedback?  They don't have any.  The rule applies to ALL teams.. not just Renault.  And most likely.. ALL teams will take advantage of it.



#2437 redviper22

redviper22
  • Member

  • 89 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 03 March 2014 - 15:40

People always find new ways to rewrite history.  I'm not talking about this years engines or the rules or not..

 

I'm talking about why RBR dominated.  It's so silly that each person always has a new reason or excuse, and it's always to fit their agenda.

 

Redbull's turning point happened in 2009.. and it wasn't due to anything on the engine side.

 

They were the best team of the non DDD teams and then in the second half of the season, tacked on an improvised DDD themselves and dominated the second half of the season.  Start of the new season, 2010 they now had a car built from scratch to accommodate the DDD.  From then on.. there were lots of 'trick devices' that people used or not.. exhaust blowing, F Ducts and lots of other stuff.

 

But what remained a constant from 2009 until now is that under these regulations with the narrower high rear wing, and the new front wing and everything else.. Redbull have been the most aerodynamic advanced team.  It's the aero that has made Redbull so strong, and that's usually Newey's strong point.  In the first few seasons, the Renault engine was actually classed as a liability and there was talk of switching to Merc.  Last season, the aero had become so advanced that even at Spa and Monza, they had good straight line speeds and downforce.

 

With the aerodynamics that Redbull have had, they would have won championships with Ferrari or Merc engine.. so I don't know where this engine factor comes into it.  It helped in some ways (traction, fuel economy) but as always.. you have compromises in one area and strengths in the other.  Redbull's strength is aerodynamics and what you say only applies to 2011/2012 onwards.. and Redbull have been strong since the rules changed in 2009.
 

 

aerodynamics and engines are related. If Red Bull had the Merc/Ferrari engine, do you think they would have been able to package the car so tightly? Would those engines have the necessary maps to fully exploit the EBD?

 

You mention the top speed in Monza and Spa last year. Perhaps you noticed that Red Bull were running a much shallower rear wing than anyone else. This is because they managed to generate more downforce through the diffuser (thanks to the EBD sealing the edges).



#2438 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 2,393 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:37

Renault and Ferrari and Mercedes all run by the same rules.. and there's even been reports that Ferrari could be down big amounts of HP to Mercedes.  Does this mean it helps or hurts Ferrari?

 

Edd Straw said he expects all teams to make reliability upgrades to their engine during the season and I agree with him.  Regardless of what has happened in the last month.. think about the rule changes, the limited testing and the fact that they all did this last time already.

 

So it seems ESPECIALLY likely.. that they will do it in 2014.  Why?  Because the engines have been frozen and they haven't even run a race yet!  Race feedback?  They don't have any.  The rule applies to ALL teams.. not just Renault.  And most likely.. ALL teams will take advantage of it.

I think a lot depends on what kind of spectacle is presented at Melbourne. If the quality of the race suffers and a lot of fans are disappointed, the stakeholders, noticing that they f....d up by not allowing more testing before season start in this transition year, will probably be more lenient towards upgrades. This is positive as it will benefit fans most of all if Renault can get their act together and we have a higher probability of seeing more cars and drivers battling. To wish problems for RBR just shows a vindictive, near-sighted vision of F1 in particular and auto racing in general. 



#2439 4L3X

4L3X
  • Member

  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 03 March 2014 - 18:28

I think one have to distinguish between wishing problems for RBR and fear that RBR will get a free out of jail card type of situation.

 

I think most, except for die hard RBR haters, would love to see lots of embarrassing initial struggles and then see the team lifting themselves off from the ashes and building a good fast car by mid season. 

What I personally wouldn't want to see is to be robbed of a potential embarrassment due to politics, sponsors or FIA's usual meddling.  

 

What FIA usual meddling?  Example, rain races and the parade behind the safety car.  I LOL when Alain Prost in the rain went out of road on a formation lap in the Italian GP - although I'm a fan of his.   That can't happen anymore, or at least they try to.  There's a parade lap so long that usually they don't even need to use the rain tires any more and go for inters.  F* that.

 

So yeah, I'm looking forward to RBR fighting with Marussia, Vettel dicing with Chilton and losing, winning.  And then come win Silverstone.  I wouldn't mind.  But I hope a formation lap engine blowout at the first race won't make FIA intervene and cut all sorts of deals to favor Renault.

My view only.


Edited by 4L3X, 03 March 2014 - 18:30.


Advertisement

#2440 ThomFi

ThomFi
  • Member

  • 632 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:22

I cannot see anything wrong with allowing Renault to request/be granted a reliability update - after all it is part of the rules package.
The fact that Ferrari where allowed such an update and the suggestion they lost power as a result shows that if properly policed it should be possible to prevent a performance update to be gained as a side effect. I assume the FIA can request any data they want (such as dyno results) to verify the results of the update do not break the rules.

 

I agree, but all engine manufactures updated their engines on reliability grounds throughout the engine freeze and Ferrari's fix of their pneumatic valves air leak drew some attention, because it allegedly increased the engine output by 12 hp.

 

http://scarbsf1.com/...-specification/



#2441 tomisumi

tomisumi
  • Member

  • 234 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:32

tumblr_n1vh290UWs1sncaa3o3_400.gif



#2442 PEW

PEW
  • Member

  • 1,086 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:37

Now that's a Gallic Shrug !



#2443 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:38

tumblr_n1vh290UWs1sncaa3o3_400.gif


Looks well pleased

#2444 v@sh

v@sh
  • Member

  • 855 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:47

Even though enotsne's post makes it seem it is under control, I'm still suspicious that you cannot run the Renault PU at its full potential or full power for that matter. The Renault teams say they can now run the PU at full power during the last Bahrain test, but the question is for how long can they?

 

The reason I say that is because in Peter Windsor's Bahrain day 2 wrap up, he shows Ricciardo on the back straight with his lights flashing red meaning the ERS has no more battery. Is this occurring for all other Renault teams in that they cannot use the power of the ERS around a full lap? because that would still mean they are at a power deficit.



#2445 Slartibartfast

Slartibartfast
  • Paddock Club Host

  • 4,725 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:42

tumblr_n1vh290UWs1sncaa3o3_400.gif

 

He's just been told he doesn't get Kimi's ice-cream allowance this year.



#2446 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 2,104 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:48

tumblr_n1vh290UWs1sncaa3o3_400.gif

 

I wonder what Vettel's fits looked like. :rotfl:



#2447 0Fritz

0Fritz
  • Member

  • 352 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:02

I think one have to distinguish between wishing problems for RBR and fear that RBR will get a free out of jail card type of situation.

 

I think most, except for die hard RBR haters, would love to see lots of embarrassing initial struggles and then see the team lifting themselves off from the ashes and building a good fast car by mid season. 

What I personally wouldn't want to see is to be robbed of a potential embarrassment due to politics, sponsors or FIA's usual meddling.  

 

What FIA usual meddling?  Example, rain races and the parade behind the safety car.  I LOL when Alain Prost in the rain went out of road on a formation lap in the Italian GP - although I'm a fan of his.   That can't happen anymore, or at least they try to.  There's a parade lap so long that usually they don't even need to use the rain tires any more and go for inters.  F* that.

 

So yeah, I'm looking forward to RBR fighting with Marussia, Vettel dicing with Chilton and losing, winning.  And then come win Silverstone.  I wouldn't mind.  But I hope a formation lap engine blowout at the first race won't make FIA intervene and cut all sorts of deals to favor Renault.

My view only.

 

 

Speaking for myself, I hope nothing happens and that Renault sort it out themselves. They said all components work, so im not sure under what kind of dispensation they could argue an upgrade.

 

Then once they sorted their software, and the engine gets reliable but maybe underpowered, I hope Vettel wins 13 races in a row and makes his name as the comeback kid, for a 5th title. Then id love to be at his speech taking racing driver of the year award at the Autosport Awards.

 

Then I hope Todt has had enough, and allows 3 car teams under one condition: Its gonna be a Vettel - Alonso - Hamilton Red Bull team in 2015. (And of of course, then I hope Vettel will battle hard but prevail over both of them.)

 

I digress...

 

I really hope Renault sort themselves for this race, but im not really sure whether any Renault team makes more than 20 laps the entire weekend. Let me put it differently: with all the testing troubles of Renault teams these last 3 tests, you seriously have to wonder whether they last the whole race or, indeed, a session. It does not look good. As for Red Bull well, weve foughnt our way out of other tough starts, like in 2012. We did finish races back then, and that might be the bottleneck this time.


Edited by 0Fritz, 03 March 2014 - 23:41.


#2448 Bartonz20let

Bartonz20let
  • Member

  • 855 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:09

....noticing that they f....d up by not allowing more testing before season start in this transition year, will probably be more lenient towards upgrades. This is positive as it will benefit fans most of all if Renault can get their act together and we have a higher probability of seeing more cars and drivers battling. To wish problems for RBR just shows a vindictive, near-sighted vision of F1 in particular and auto racing in general.


Firstly, it's Renault (and RBR to an extent as partner) that have ****ed up, no one else, other teams/engine manufacturers have managed just fine give or take, it's not like they have had 3 months to prepare for this.

Secondly, people are not being vindictive by wishing ill on RBR, believe this or not but some people have made a rational judgement on RBR, the organisation and it's personell and decided they simply don't like them, I'm not a fan of Ferarri but I prefer them a million times over to RBR and have done way before RBR dominated. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

No team has any devine right to sucess, you build a car made up of engine, chassis, drivers and team, you make a mistake on the engine and you suffer the consiquences, same if you spoon your aero, tires or hire the wrong driver or pit crew, same if you can't bolt on your wheels correctly or you design a nose that falls off.

It's F1, RBR (and the rest of the renault customers) arnt victims, on this occasion they simply lost.

#2449 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 12,525 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:25

but im not really sure whether any Renault team makes more than 20 laps the entire weekend. 

Don't be silly.

 

You're just making a fool of yourself by statements like this.



#2450 0Fritz

0Fritz
  • Member

  • 352 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:44

Don't be silly.

 

You're just making a fool of yourself by statements like this.

 

Youre right, perhaps it was a little silly so I clarified it a bit more. With the noises coming out of the Renault teams, and Renault themselves im prepared for the worst. The only mitigating aspect is that the other teams might get other sorts of reliability problems. Its not by chance everybody points that this will be the most important aspect this coming GP. In a way, it does make it interesting.

 

The Renault statements on the Melbourne GP are not encouraging at all:

 

Renault admits Melbourne will be an "anxious weekend" after its teams failed to complete their objectives in Bahrain.


 
"We can't escape the fact that we did not complete the entire programme with all the teams and that some Melbourne preparations are incomplete," White said. "Melbourne will be an anxious weekend! Conducting a normal race weekend, in which both cars run well during each session for every team, would be a great relief."

Edited by 0Fritz, 03 March 2014 - 23:54.