Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 10 votes

Renault problems are catastrophic


  • Please log in to reply
2879 replies to this topic

#2851 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 16 March 2014 - 00:53

Yes, I did watch - they were on different tires, and the times were set at different parts of the Q1 session. If the Mercedes cars had gone back out on softs later (as the track was getting faster until the rain hit) then they would have easily topped the time sheets based on their times on the harder tire.


Edited by MirNyet, 16 March 2014 - 00:54.


Advertisement

#2852 EthanM

EthanM
  • Member

  • 2,104 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 16 March 2014 - 00:57

Yes, I did watch - they were on different tires, and the times were set at different parts of the Q1 session. If the Mercedes cars had gone back out on softs later (as the track was getting faster until the rain hit) then they would have easily topped the time sheets based on their times on the harder tire.

 

he didn't say Ricciardo was faster than Petronas Merc, he said he was faster than the other mercedes powered cars (Williams, McLaren etc). Which is factually true, he was, and they all run the same tyre.



#2853 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:09

Fair enough, I miss-read his reply. The Red Bull was chopping and changing with the McLaren of Magnussen from memory, and the Williams cars at various times also were ahead of the Red Bull but the poster is correct, it did finish ahead but I would comment that it was putting in its laps after the McLaren and Williams cars did and the track was improving.

 

With respect to the steering wheel buttons, surely these are fuel modes - they are not turning the engine down but running it lean or capping the max-revs? Altering the power output/bands/torque map of the engine isn't something that a driver can change via the steering wheel. These things can only be done in the garage when the car is stationary and in tethered mode? 

 

Edit:

 

Thinking about this further, the McLaren is known to be short on down force, its likely the Williams is too compared to the Red Bull which from all reports is another down force monster - yet the Red Bull was still mixing it with cars with a significant amount of down force less than itself? Why would this be if the car had equal or just a touch less power? Again, the facts don't tally with the reality of what's being shown on track.


Edited by MirNyet, 16 March 2014 - 01:28.


#2854 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,307 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:49

Now that the predictions have come true.... I thank all those who value what I am sharing. For those who don't want to believe, I request at least please keep your criticisms civil. Just ignore my posts, even if my predictions come true. But don't unnecessarily make personal criticisms else I would have to stop sharing.

 

From the same source, the word has it that Vettel ran a more aggressive map (presumably with 90% of power) in Q1 but was not happy with it. Riccardo was running the base map with 80% of power. Vettel reverted the map but never quite got the handling back as his car was setup for the more aggressive engine state. All is not well right now in RBR garage on Vettel's side. Marco having a meeting with Vettel behind close doors. If RBR can fix maps and exploit the engine to the fullest, Renault would be the engine to beat this season.

 

It is unlikely that Ferrari & Mercedes are having the same problems as Renault. They have had ample time to work on performance as their reliability has been sorted. I am not saying that they are running 100% for sure. But what I can say for a fact is that there is plenty more promise/horse power to come from Renault if they can get all their systems to work together without problems. RBR seems to have at least found a good baseline.

 

For the other Renault teams, it will take Renault at least 3-4 races to sort their software to bring Lotus/Caterham to a respectable level. Having said that, I don't believe Lotus will have engine parity vis-a-vis RBR until late in the season.

"FIA says @danielricciardo's car "has exceeded consistently the maximum allowed fuel flow of 100kg/h"

Techcheat (sorry I couldn't resist  :p), I hope for their own sakes that this is not how Renault planned to improve the performance of their power units.  Luca Montezemolo did warn about this. 



#2855 GoGro

GoGro
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:52

Two MGU-K failures at Lotus, one ICE problem for Vettel and an oil leakage for Ericson.  Waiting for the results of the inquiry abour Ricciardo   :(



#2856 Petroltorque

Petroltorque
  • Member

  • 1,567 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:55

In a way it might be a blessing Lotus and Caterham did not use the new RBR engine modes. One affected the drive ability on Vettel's car and the other tipped Riciardo over the permitted fuel flow limit. What chance Red Bull releasing the IP now?

#2857 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 16 March 2014 - 18:23

Are Renault trying to use more fuel to (try and) keep there engine cooler, as wasn't it rumoured that they were running leaner and hotter than both Ferrari and Mercedes engines?



#2858 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 16 March 2014 - 18:25

In a way it might be a blessing Lotus and Caterham did not use the new RBR engine modes. One affected the drive ability on Vettel's car and the other tipped Riciardo over the permitted fuel flow limit. What chance Red Bull releasing the IP now?

It seemed to work alright for Toro Rosso.



#2859 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,487 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 16 March 2014 - 19:26



You will have this news validated shortly by Renault. In not the same words, but they would release a press statement tomorrow that Lotus & Caterham problems are due to software and not the basic PU itself. Obviously it is quite hush hush at the moment. The problem is that Renault never knew going in that the software help they were receiving from RBR would not be allowed to be shared with other teams so they essentially took a backseat. Of course their problems are solvable but it would take Renault coders few weeks to get their own software at the same level's as RBR. That would mean that teams that are not allowed to run the RBR software on their PU (Lotus, Caterham) would continue to struggle with the PU for few more races. Renault are sure they can fix this for them by Europe. Renault have also clearly told RBR that any further help on software is not required as they want to have the same baseline for all teams in the end.

 

The question is whether RBR wants to stop improving the software given that it seems to make a significant difference and (surprisingly to be honest) they seem to be able to do a better in short time than the Renault coders (at least performance wise). In the long term, using only one piece of software could be better though, since any issues would be easier to debug.


Edited by apoka, 16 March 2014 - 19:28.


Advertisement

#2860 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:09

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/


Edited by Gorma, 19 March 2014 - 12:09.


#2861 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:12

Everyone always knew everyone could and would. Didn't they?



#2862 F1ultimate

F1ultimate
  • Member

  • 2,859 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:22

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

 

A sensible decision by the FIA. Having driver's championship hopes at the mercy of engine reliability is simply not good for the sport and turns races into lotteries of unpredictability. 



#2863 Tapz63

Tapz63
  • Member

  • 234 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:01

They were already allowed to do that.

#2864 kraduk

kraduk
  • Member

  • 243 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:40

Fair enough, I miss-read his reply. The Red Bull was chopping and changing with the McLaren of Magnussen from memory, and the Williams cars at various times also were ahead of the Red Bull but the poster is correct, it did finish ahead but I would comment that it was putting in its laps after the McLaren and Williams cars did and the track was improving.

 

With respect to the steering wheel buttons, surely these are fuel modes - they are not turning the engine down but running it lean or capping the max-revs? Altering the power output/bands/torque map of the engine isn't something that a driver can change via the steering wheel. These things can only be done in the garage when the car is stationary and in tethered mode? 

 

Edit:

 

Thinking about this further, the McLaren is known to be short on down force, its likely the Williams is too compared to the Red Bull which from all reports is another down force monster - yet the Red Bull was still mixing it with cars with a significant amount of down force less than itself? Why would this be if the car had equal or just a touch less power? Again, the facts don't tally with the reality of what's being shown on track.

 

This may be true at equal fuel rates, but we now know RBR was running a higher fuel rate than other teams. I'm not going into if they were legal or not, but they were certainly closer to 100% rather than the 96% that other teams were allegedly ruinning



#2865 Techcheat

Techcheat
  • Member

  • 142 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:53

I am privy to some more information that I would shortly share. It seems there are serious devisions in RBR about whether to appeal the decision or not. All is not well at Viry too it seems. I am afraid things are not looking good at the moment. The only team holding back almost all Renault teams is the engine. Having said that the fact that Renault identified their problems before homologating, they have had time to apply potential fixes before they submitted their design. Ferrari on the other hand, is a hopeless case of going/being no where. Given that Ferrari could have supported Renault to lift the engine freeze, in hindsight Ferrari misread it completely. Mood at Renault is not upbeat, but plenty of promise that they are finding hard to unlock. What works for RBR is not working for Lotus. For now all focus on RBR.. so unfortunately Lotus issues taking a backseat.



#2866 ThomFi

ThomFi
  • Member

  • 629 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 19 March 2014 - 14:08

Taffin says, the parts of the Renault engine (PU) have the potential to reach the Mercedes performance, it's just a question of optimisation.

 

http://motorsport.ne...edes,74035.html


Edited by ThomFi, 19 March 2014 - 14:09.


#2867 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 March 2014 - 14:18

Unlocking its full potential? Now, where did I hear that before? :)



#2868 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,168 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:04

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

 

This is why all of those discussions early on in this topic were so silly.



#2869 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 566 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:20

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

Well obviously they are requesting to improve reliability; it's part of the rules that they can update the engine if it saves costs and improves reliability. Of course, improving performance at the same time is what they all want to do.



#2870 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:26

Are Renault trying to use more fuel to (try and) keep there engine cooler, as wasn't it rumoured that they were running leaner and hotter than both Ferrari and Mercedes engines?

In the context of the FFL it's irrelevant if Renault are doing that.



#2871 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:29

A sensible decision by the FIA. Having driver's championship hopes at the mercy of engine reliability is simply not good for the sport and turns races into lotteries of unpredictability.

F1 always used to be like that and it never harmed the sport.



#2872 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 8,006 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 19 March 2014 - 20:30

I am privy to some more information that I would shortly share. It seems there are serious devisions in RBR about whether to appeal the decision or not. All is not well at Viry too it seems. I am afraid things are not looking good at the moment. The only team holding back almost all Renault teams is the engine. Having said that the fact that Renault identified their problems before homologating, they have had time to apply potential fixes before they submitted their design. Ferrari on the other hand, is a hopeless case of going/being no where. Given that Ferrari could have supported Renault to lift the engine freeze, in hindsight Ferrari misread it completely. Mood at Renault is not upbeat, but plenty of promise that they are finding hard to unlock. What works for RBR is not working for Lotus. For now all focus on RBR.. so unfortunately Lotus issues taking a backseat.

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.



#2873 LightningMcQueen

LightningMcQueen
  • Member

  • 66 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 19 March 2014 - 21:07

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.


And play second fiddle to mclaren who will be the works team?

#2874 Petroltorque

Petroltorque
  • Member

  • 1,567 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:22

Whereas I can see the FIA allowing minor component changes on the grounds of reliability. I can't see them allowing any MAJOR design changes on the engine side. That is wishful thinking from disgruntled fans. The bottom line is if manufacturers can't find performance from the ECU control software they will have to wait till the next homologation cycle in 2015.

#2875 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,495 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:32

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.

 

McLaren have an exclusive deal with Honda for 2015, but they are open to customers from then on... McLaren remaining the works team though.



#2876 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:43

In the context of the FFL it's irrelevant if Renault are doing that.

Are you sure about that? As maybe they can not add enough fuel by staying within the FFL?



#2877 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,211 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:24

Are you sure about that? As maybe they can not add enough fuel by staying within the FFL?

It doesn't matter. The FFL is set and if Renault need more then they will be breaking the rules. They will not get away with the cooling excuse again.



#2878 427MkIV

427MkIV
  • Member

  • 45 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:44

Well, here comes Silverstone, and Horner is still blaming Renault.



#2879 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,465 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:01

And he is right.


Edited by Diablobb81, 23 June 2014 - 17:26.


Advertisement

#2880 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:22

http://www.f1fanatic...tic-round-2306/