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Renault problems are catastrophic


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#2851 MirNyet

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 00:53

Yes, I did watch - they were on different tires, and the times were set at different parts of the Q1 session. If the Mercedes cars had gone back out on softs later (as the track was getting faster until the rain hit) then they would have easily topped the time sheets based on their times on the harder tire.


Edited by MirNyet, 16 March 2014 - 00:54.


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#2852 EthanM

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 00:57

Yes, I did watch - they were on different tires, and the times were set at different parts of the Q1 session. If the Mercedes cars had gone back out on softs later (as the track was getting faster until the rain hit) then they would have easily topped the time sheets based on their times on the harder tire.

 

he didn't say Ricciardo was faster than Petronas Merc, he said he was faster than the other mercedes powered cars (Williams, McLaren etc). Which is factually true, he was, and they all run the same tyre.



#2853 MirNyet

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:09

Fair enough, I miss-read his reply. The Red Bull was chopping and changing with the McLaren of Magnussen from memory, and the Williams cars at various times also were ahead of the Red Bull but the poster is correct, it did finish ahead but I would comment that it was putting in its laps after the McLaren and Williams cars did and the track was improving.

 

With respect to the steering wheel buttons, surely these are fuel modes - they are not turning the engine down but running it lean or capping the max-revs? Altering the power output/bands/torque map of the engine isn't something that a driver can change via the steering wheel. These things can only be done in the garage when the car is stationary and in tethered mode? 

 

Edit:

 

Thinking about this further, the McLaren is known to be short on down force, its likely the Williams is too compared to the Red Bull which from all reports is another down force monster - yet the Red Bull was still mixing it with cars with a significant amount of down force less than itself? Why would this be if the car had equal or just a touch less power? Again, the facts don't tally with the reality of what's being shown on track.


Edited by MirNyet, 16 March 2014 - 01:28.


#2854 OO7

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:49

Now that the predictions have come true.... I thank all those who value what I am sharing. For those who don't want to believe, I request at least please keep your criticisms civil. Just ignore my posts, even if my predictions come true. But don't unnecessarily make personal criticisms else I would have to stop sharing.

 

From the same source, the word has it that Vettel ran a more aggressive map (presumably with 90% of power) in Q1 but was not happy with it. Riccardo was running the base map with 80% of power. Vettel reverted the map but never quite got the handling back as his car was setup for the more aggressive engine state. All is not well right now in RBR garage on Vettel's side. Marco having a meeting with Vettel behind close doors. If RBR can fix maps and exploit the engine to the fullest, Renault would be the engine to beat this season.

 

It is unlikely that Ferrari & Mercedes are having the same problems as Renault. They have had ample time to work on performance as their reliability has been sorted. I am not saying that they are running 100% for sure. But what I can say for a fact is that there is plenty more promise/horse power to come from Renault if they can get all their systems to work together without problems. RBR seems to have at least found a good baseline.

 

For the other Renault teams, it will take Renault at least 3-4 races to sort their software to bring Lotus/Caterham to a respectable level. Having said that, I don't believe Lotus will have engine parity vis-a-vis RBR until late in the season.

"FIA says @danielricciardo's car "has exceeded consistently the maximum allowed fuel flow of 100kg/h"

Techcheat (sorry I couldn't resist  :p), I hope for their own sakes that this is not how Renault planned to improve the performance of their power units.  Luca Montezemolo did warn about this. 



#2855 GoGro

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:52

Two MGU-K failures at Lotus, one ICE problem for Vettel and an oil leakage for Ericson.  Waiting for the results of the inquiry abour Ricciardo   :(



#2856 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:55

In a way it might be a blessing Lotus and Caterham did not use the new RBR engine modes. One affected the drive ability on Vettel's car and the other tipped Riciardo over the permitted fuel flow limit. What chance Red Bull releasing the IP now?

#2857 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 18:23

Are Renault trying to use more fuel to (try and) keep there engine cooler, as wasn't it rumoured that they were running leaner and hotter than both Ferrari and Mercedes engines?



#2858 Gorma

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 18:25

In a way it might be a blessing Lotus and Caterham did not use the new RBR engine modes. One affected the drive ability on Vettel's car and the other tipped Riciardo over the permitted fuel flow limit. What chance Red Bull releasing the IP now?

It seemed to work alright for Toro Rosso.



#2859 apoka

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 19:26



You will have this news validated shortly by Renault. In not the same words, but they would release a press statement tomorrow that Lotus & Caterham problems are due to software and not the basic PU itself. Obviously it is quite hush hush at the moment. The problem is that Renault never knew going in that the software help they were receiving from RBR would not be allowed to be shared with other teams so they essentially took a backseat. Of course their problems are solvable but it would take Renault coders few weeks to get their own software at the same level's as RBR. That would mean that teams that are not allowed to run the RBR software on their PU (Lotus, Caterham) would continue to struggle with the PU for few more races. Renault are sure they can fix this for them by Europe. Renault have also clearly told RBR that any further help on software is not required as they want to have the same baseline for all teams in the end.

 

The question is whether RBR wants to stop improving the software given that it seems to make a significant difference and (surprisingly to be honest) they seem to be able to do a better in short time than the Renault coders (at least performance wise). In the long term, using only one piece of software could be better though, since any issues would be easier to debug.


Edited by apoka, 16 March 2014 - 19:28.


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#2860 Gorma

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:09

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/


Edited by Gorma, 19 March 2014 - 12:09.


#2861 oetzi

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:12

Everyone always knew everyone could and would. Didn't they?



#2862 F1ultimate

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:22

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

 

A sensible decision by the FIA. Having driver's championship hopes at the mercy of engine reliability is simply not good for the sport and turns races into lotteries of unpredictability. 



#2863 Tapz63

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:01

They were already allowed to do that.

#2864 kraduk

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:40

Fair enough, I miss-read his reply. The Red Bull was chopping and changing with the McLaren of Magnussen from memory, and the Williams cars at various times also were ahead of the Red Bull but the poster is correct, it did finish ahead but I would comment that it was putting in its laps after the McLaren and Williams cars did and the track was improving.

 

With respect to the steering wheel buttons, surely these are fuel modes - they are not turning the engine down but running it lean or capping the max-revs? Altering the power output/bands/torque map of the engine isn't something that a driver can change via the steering wheel. These things can only be done in the garage when the car is stationary and in tethered mode? 

 

Edit:

 

Thinking about this further, the McLaren is known to be short on down force, its likely the Williams is too compared to the Red Bull which from all reports is another down force monster - yet the Red Bull was still mixing it with cars with a significant amount of down force less than itself? Why would this be if the car had equal or just a touch less power? Again, the facts don't tally with the reality of what's being shown on track.

 

This may be true at equal fuel rates, but we now know RBR was running a higher fuel rate than other teams. I'm not going into if they were legal or not, but they were certainly closer to 100% rather than the 96% that other teams were allegedly ruinning



#2865 Techcheat

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 13:53

I am privy to some more information that I would shortly share. It seems there are serious devisions in RBR about whether to appeal the decision or not. All is not well at Viry too it seems. I am afraid things are not looking good at the moment. The only team holding back almost all Renault teams is the engine. Having said that the fact that Renault identified their problems before homologating, they have had time to apply potential fixes before they submitted their design. Ferrari on the other hand, is a hopeless case of going/being no where. Given that Ferrari could have supported Renault to lift the engine freeze, in hindsight Ferrari misread it completely. Mood at Renault is not upbeat, but plenty of promise that they are finding hard to unlock. What works for RBR is not working for Lotus. For now all focus on RBR.. so unfortunately Lotus issues taking a backseat.



#2866 ThomFi

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 14:08

Taffin says, the parts of the Renault engine (PU) have the potential to reach the Mercedes performance, it's just a question of optimisation.

 

http://motorsport.ne...edes,74035.html


Edited by ThomFi, 19 March 2014 - 14:09.


#2867 MirNyet

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 14:18

Unlocking its full potential? Now, where did I hear that before? :)



#2868 HoldenRT

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:04

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

 

This is why all of those discussions early on in this topic were so silly.



#2869 Goron3

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:20

It is funny how some people were screams their heads off that Renault shouldn't be allowed to fix their engines, but apparently all engine manufacturers have requested permission for reliability updates  :D

 

http://www.formula1b...-engine-makers/

Well obviously they are requesting to improve reliability; it's part of the rules that they can update the engine if it saves costs and improves reliability. Of course, improving performance at the same time is what they all want to do.



#2870 Clatter

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:26

Are Renault trying to use more fuel to (try and) keep there engine cooler, as wasn't it rumoured that they were running leaner and hotter than both Ferrari and Mercedes engines?

In the context of the FFL it's irrelevant if Renault are doing that.



#2871 Clatter

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 17:29

A sensible decision by the FIA. Having driver's championship hopes at the mercy of engine reliability is simply not good for the sport and turns races into lotteries of unpredictability.

F1 always used to be like that and it never harmed the sport.



#2872 rodlamas

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 20:30

I am privy to some more information that I would shortly share. It seems there are serious devisions in RBR about whether to appeal the decision or not. All is not well at Viry too it seems. I am afraid things are not looking good at the moment. The only team holding back almost all Renault teams is the engine. Having said that the fact that Renault identified their problems before homologating, they have had time to apply potential fixes before they submitted their design. Ferrari on the other hand, is a hopeless case of going/being no where. Given that Ferrari could have supported Renault to lift the engine freeze, in hindsight Ferrari misread it completely. Mood at Renault is not upbeat, but plenty of promise that they are finding hard to unlock. What works for RBR is not working for Lotus. For now all focus on RBR.. so unfortunately Lotus issues taking a backseat.

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.



#2873 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 21:07

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.


And play second fiddle to mclaren who will be the works team?

#2874 Petroltorque

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:22

Whereas I can see the FIA allowing minor component changes on the grounds of reliability. I can't see them allowing any MAJOR design changes on the engine side. That is wishful thinking from disgruntled fans. The bottom line is if manufacturers can't find performance from the ECU control software they will have to wait till the next homologation cycle in 2015.

#2875 DanardiF1

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:32

A bit off the topic, I see them matching up with Honda for 2015 as it has been reported months ago.

 

McLaren have an exclusive deal with Honda for 2015, but they are open to customers from then on... McLaren remaining the works team though.



#2876 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:43

In the context of the FFL it's irrelevant if Renault are doing that.

Are you sure about that? As maybe they can not add enough fuel by staying within the FFL?



#2877 Clatter

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:24

Are you sure about that? As maybe they can not add enough fuel by staying within the FFL?

It doesn't matter. The FFL is set and if Renault need more then they will be breaking the rules. They will not get away with the cooling excuse again.



#2878 427MkIV

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:44

Well, here comes Silverstone, and Horner is still blaming Renault.



#2879 Diablobb81

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:01

And he is right.


Edited by Diablobb81, 23 June 2014 - 17:26.


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#2880 Kingshark

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:22

http://www.f1fanatic...tic-round-2306/



#2881 turssi

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 13:58

So Renault wins Spa. What's next? Monza?

Quite a feat to overcome the catastrophic problems from the start of the season. I'm sure they will make the best of this in coming press releases.

#2882 BRG

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 18:42

Penalties for exceeding the number of ICEs and the other bits will start to bite very soon for the Renault teams.  Though how Caterham will suffer a 10 place grid penalty remains to be seen - start from the paddock perhaps.



#2883 sopa

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 19:22

No more catastrophic than Ferrari, probably less catastrophic than Ferrari actually.

 

However, the success/power of Mercedes has proven to have a catastrophic impact on the competitiveness of all other manufacturers this year. Merc were so good out of the box they have proven to be virtually uncatchable all year. Let's see if Renault can somewhat improve next year - at least to a level, where together with Red Bull it would be possible to compete for titles.



#2884 Gorma

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 19:42

Red Bull dominate next year. They still have the best chassis.

#2885 lbennie

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 03:30

Some of the smug posts at the start of this thread proclaiming the downfall of Red Bull are quite an entertaining read now.



#2886 skyfolker

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:03

Renault declares Red Bull new works team



#2887 Jejking

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:21

Like we didn't know that already ;)

#2888 Rinehart

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:36

Is it just me or does the Ferrari look like its the worst engine in the field now (if you take all rumoured factors into the equation)?



#2889 Jon83

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 09:07

Is it just me or does the Ferrari look like its the worst engine in the field now (if you take all rumoured factors into the equation)?

 

Absolutely.



#2890 Kristian

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:19

Is it just me or does the Ferrari look like its the worst engine in the field now (if you take all rumoured factors into the equation)?

 

Yep. Especially as Mattiachi was calling for the engine freeze to be, erm, unfrozen - he knows it. 



#2891 ollebompa

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:28

To me the Ferrari seems better mechanically, but Renault makes it up with better software. When you look at the Ferarris they seem to have a wire throttle.


Edited by ollebompa, 03 September 2014 - 19:52.


#2892 LeMans86

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 19:32

An interesting comment today by Christian Horner in the PC showing that all is not well yet between Red Bull and Renault:

as far as Renault’s concerned, it allows them to focus fully on one solution: on Red Bull Racing. Obviously there’s some challenges ahead, it’s been a disastrous year for Renault this year and they’re working extremely hard to close that gap to the Mercedes. The problem is it’s a little bit of a moving target because one minute we agree something then suddenly people can’t remember what they’ve agreed and they change their mind, so we’ve got a bit going on at the moment.

#2893 Kobasmashi

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 19:34

An interesting comment today by Christian Horner in the PC showing that all is not well yet between Red Bull and Renault:

as far as Renault’s concerned, it allows them to focus fully on one solution: on Red Bull Racing. Obviously there’s some challenges ahead, it’s been a disastrous year for Renault this year and they’re working extremely hard to close that gap to the Mercedes. The problem is it’s a little bit of a moving target because one minute we agree something then suddenly people can’t remember what they’ve agreed and they change their mind, so we’ve got a bit going on at the moment.

Horner's sounding more and more like a broken record.



#2894 Exb

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 19:38

An interesting comment today by Christian Horner in the PC showing that all is not well yet between Red Bull and Renault:

as far as Renault’s concerned, it allows them to focus fully on one solution: on Red Bull Racing. Obviously there’s some challenges ahead, it’s been a disastrous year for Renault this year and they’re working extremely hard to close that gap to the Mercedes. The problem is it’s a little bit of a moving target because one minute we agree something then suddenly people can’t remember what they’ve agreed and they change their mind, so we’ve got a bit going on at the moment.


I thought he was referring to Mercedes to be honest (as in they had all agreed to relax the engine freeze but then Mercedes have changed their minds again)???

#2895 Gorma

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 19:54

I thought he was referring to Mercedes to be honest (as in they had all agreed to relax the engine freeze but then Mercedes have changed their minds again)???

I get the same idea.

#2896 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 20:13

Pot and Kettle, throw Mercedes, McLaren, Ferrari in there as well. None of the teams / manufacturers will do anything for the betterment of F1, they have their own pure egotistical agenda which is again just a little twig more on the fire of ineptness surrounding the decision makers of the sport.

 

:cool:



#2897 turssi

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 18:01

They have overtaken Ferrari and made the gap smaller compared to Merc. Good recovery work after the catástrofe.

#2898 engineblock1

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 18:23

F1 always used to be like that and it never harmed the sport.

 

+1

 

F1 is an equation of so many variables and you cannot complain about a certain variable's presence in the equation. As an ardent follower/reader of F1, the last thing I would want in F1 is everything else made same while the on-track inputs to steering and paddle makes the difference.