93 replies to this topic

[V61985]

I'm far from clued up on engineering and I'm curious about this new braking system. How will it affect the way the car feels and how the drivers perform? We saw last year when Lewis Hamilton, who is one of the king of the brakes, reduced many times to just an average driver when he wasn't happy with them. Will the likes of Hamilton lose some of their magic with this new system as a lot of their laptime relys on being good on the brakes??

Edited by V61985, 03 February 2014 - 11:08.

[David1976]

I am inclined to think that the brake by wire set-up could impede Lewis from one of his advantages - like the FRIC system seemed to in 2013.

 

However, one thing that may work in his favour is that as the system is electronic it should be slightly easier to tune.  Once he has it set-up to his own liking it may be less of an issue.

[Clatter]

What new braking system?

[bauss]

can someone explain how it works actually

 

nevermind, googling it

Edited by bauss, 03 February 2014 - 11:12.

[Slackbladder]

What new braking system?

 

The rear brakes are not connected mechanically to either the drivers pedal or the front brakes. It's done electronically.

[Clatter]

The rear brakes are not connected mechanically to either the drivers pedal or the front brakes. It's done electronically.

Cheers. Hadn't noticed that one.

[V61985]

I am inclined to think that the brake by wire set-up could impede Lewis from one of his advantages - like the FRIC system seemed to in 2013.

However, one thing that may work in his favour is that as the system is electronic it should be slightly easier to tune. Once he has it set-up to his own liking it may be less of an issue.

I suspect Lewis isn't happy with this new system as he already as hinted it in one of his interviews at Jerez. I don't have a clue how the system feels and affects the drivers braking?

Will it be a case of who's got the best engineer at setting the system up as opposed to who's best on the brake pedal? Every year it appears drivers are becoming more of an operator than a driver.

[thiscocks]

From Autosport Technical: In 2014 with the far more complex ERS and greater energy being harvested, braking bias will be hard to manage. So the FIA has made a bold step and allowed a rear brake-by-wire system for the first time. Described as the 'rear brake control system' in article 11.7 of the technical regulations, this will be a system that reacts to drivers' braking demand at the pedal and applies a corresponding rear braking affect taking into account the ERS harvesting level.

 

 

Although a technically an 'active' system, this will not provide any form of anti-lock braking as the control of the system is policed by the FIA standard ECU. The system will merely apply the net amount of braking effort the driver puts into the pedal, if the driver pushes too hard, the wheels will lock up.

 

So it wont effect how the driver controls the car anymore so than last year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wingwalker]

Cheers. Hadn't noticed that one.

 

So I wasn't the only one, caught by surprise when I was watching Ted Kravitz's Notebook. I guess it got buried under all the other changes. Apparently this year the energy recovery systes take over the driving input end decide how much breaking should be applied to the rear axis by themselves, so it's an effective ABS, like in the TC days. I don't like it one bit.

[CrucialXtreme]

can someone explain how it works actually
 
nevermind, googling it

The braking system concept is totally new, taking the form of a brake-by-wire system for the first time at the rear wheels. This has become necessary due to the significantly increased performance of the ERS, which requires much greater variations in rear wheel braking torque than previously. With brake-by-wire, an electronic system measures how hard the driver presses the brake pedal and then – using the additional information from energy recuperation – determines in a split-second the amount of braking pressure that should be fed through to the rear brake callipers.

Racecar-Engineering

[Diablobb81]

And the rain light will also function as a brake light.

[wingwalker]

Although a technically an 'active' system, this will not provide any form of anti-lock braking as the control of the system is policed by the FIA standard ECU. The system will merely apply the net amount of braking effort the driver puts into the pedal, if the driver pushes too hard, the wheels will lock up.

 

So it wont effect how the driver controls the car anymore so than last year.

 

I'm really not sure about this part is going to work in reality.  "It's not ABS, it just prevents rear wheels from locking up".

[ZionLH]

And the rain light will also function as a brake light.

 

Wtf , i know its a minor but what about in wet conditions will there be odd blinking patterns. F1 cars with brake lights  who would of thought !

[bauss]

looks like a system which when setup right can be ABS, some folks at f1technical are even talking about it been used for traction control.. 

 

We will see what the teams come up with.. have to say though, already saw cars locking up, so if ABS is part of the plan, hasnt been perfected yet

[PayasYouRace]

The front brakes will still provide the driver with "feel" though. This system will just match the rears to the required bias (which I assume can still be adjusted on the fly like the old purely mechanical system).

 

I'm really not sure about this part is going to work in reality.  "It's not ABS, it just prevents rear wheels from locking up".

 

It won't prevent the rears from locking up.

[wingwalker]

The front brakes will still provide the driver with "feel" though. This system will just match the rears to the required bias (which I assume can still be adjusted on the fly like the old purely mechanical system).

 

 

If this was that simple the brake by wire system wouldn't be needed. It adjust the harvesting of energy on the fly and how much energy will be harvested if the wheels are locked up? One of the things it needs to do to work effectively is to prevent the lock ups. I really don't see a way it's not going to work as a rear axis ABS.

Edited by wingwalker, 03 February 2014 - 11:58.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Apparently this year the energy recovery systes take over the driving input end decide how much breaking should be applied to the rear axis by themselves, so it's an effective ABS, like in the TC days. I don't like it one bit.

 

Except it doesn't do that at all. It takes the amount of braking pressure requested by the driver and distributes it between the MGUK and rear calipers, depending on what the engine needs from the MGUK.

 

If the driver is asking too much of his rear wheels, then the brake by wire system will lock up the rears.

 

All the brake by wire system does is take a given braking load request, and meet it by applying that load to the calipers, less the amount the MGUK is retarding the axle by.

 

So if the MGUK isn't generating power at all, it's a one to one relationship, and the rears will lock or not, depending on brake pedal pressure and brake bias.

 

 

The difficult bit is that the teams have to write their own braking mapping code that recognises how much caliper pressure to put on for a given MGUK load, to match the requested load.

 

 

Now in theory, you could place an overall upper limit of the braking force in this code, like never allowing full MGUK and full caliper at the same time, but they would only stop the rears locking, and it would be very hard to fine tune it to match the threshold of... threshold braking.

 

If you were too aggressive on this limit, you'd lose overall braking efficiency, but never lock. Too conservative and you'd lock anyway.

 

It would be a safety concern if drivers weren't able to lock the wheels, as it's important for other drives on track that you can do so in a spin, for example, so that you slide predictably in the same direction, and don't do what Mark Webber did when he slid back across the track and hit a competitor.

 

 

Now I don't know how the McLaren ECU's work, but it could be made so that the area you write your code in only has the scope to access certain vehicle variables.

It would be hard to write a traction control or ABS program, if the only variables you had to work with in your code were driver braking pressure, driver requested brake balance, and MGUK load. The calculated brake pressure to apply to the rear calipers derived from limited information about the car would rule out ABS and TC.

 

If the area where they get to write their own code to output a braking pressure has access to other information, like differential wheel speeds, and steering angle, and roads speed, and front wheel speeds, then you could be cheeky.

 

If the FIA provided standard ECU area for writing rear braking code is agnostic to anything but requested braking load, requested bias, and MGUK load, it will be fine. It will be invisible, assuming it is very low latency and well mapped out.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 12:15.

[Timstr11]

From the Mercedes press pack:

 

Brake System: Owing to the increased energy recovery requirements on the rear axle, the rear brakes may now employ a ‘brake-by-wire’ system. The brake system must comprise two separate hydraulic circuits for the front and rear wheels operated by one pedal. The system must be designed so that if a failure occurs in one circuit, the pedal will still operate the brakes in the other.

 

For Mercedes, both Nico and Lewis are not happy with how the W05 brake-by-wire works. Mercedes seems to have quite some work to do their.

Feedback from Ferrari drivers is that their brake system works well.

[slmk]

From the Mercedes press pack:

 

For Mercedes, both Nico and Lewis are not happy with how the W05 brake-by-wire works. Mercedes seems to have quite some work to do their.

Feedback from Ferrari drivers is that their brake system works well.

 

Source?

[Ali_G]

A real pity.  Its these sort of complications (brake bias vs ERS harvesting) which makes the cars difficult to drive.  Anything which makes the cars more difficult to drive is a plus in my book.

[Timstr11]

Source?

 

http://www.auto-moto...ie-8029092.html

 

 

Translated: Especially the new electronic brake (brake-by-wire) is not functioning as intended. Drivers complained of problems with the synchronization of braking power between the front and rear axle.

I've read other comments from Nico and lewis as well. Cannot find them now.

[wingwalker]

Rears is all I'm talking about.

 

 

 

Now in theory, you could place an overall upper limit of the braking force in this code, like never allowing full MGUK and full caliper at the same time, but they would only stop the rears locking, and it would be very hard to fine tune it to match the threshold of... threshold braking. f you were too aggressive on this limit, you'd lose overall braking efficiency, but never lock. Too conservative and you'd lock anyway.

But doesn't this apply to pretty much every aid/control system ever? It always cuts off some of the available performance, but it is better at it than the driver.

[V61985]

Source?

On one of the Sky interviews at Jerez, Lewis mentioned the new system stating it's not a good thing.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Rears is all I'm talking about.

 

But doesn't this apply to pretty much every aid/control system ever? It always cuts off some of the available performance, but it is better at it than the driver.

 

It depends on the system. ABS has to know the speeds of all the wheels, as does traction control. The code itself can find the limit and get close to it.

 

You'd think that in an ECU that the FIA has control over, and everyone has to use, the area for writing your rear braking code would be agnostic to anything but driver braking pressure, brake bias, and the current state of the MGUK.

 

If the FIA have any brains, this is how it would be done. You can't write anti-locking code or traction control in an area that is agnostic to wheel speeds etc.

 

The whole reason for moving to the standard ECU was to stamp out traction control by I presume making the areas relating to throttle mapping agnostic to wheel speeds etc.

 

A brake by wire system with your own ECU would mean ABS and traction control. With a standard FIA ECU, I wouldn't be surprised if you just have a simple map where you plot your desired caliper load versus MGUK load and front brake load, and then apply the brake bias calculation before sending it to the rear calipers. There probably isn't the functionality to write your own logic. If there is, that's cool, but the ECU can limit what variables are available for you to use in your logic.

 

Just as they did to stop TC with the new ECUs. It's simple.

 

I'm guessing if they were smart enough to make the areas to do with throttle mapping agnostic to wheel speeds, they'd do the same for the brake by wire area too. If they haven't done that, it's the FIA being morons, and not a fundamental problem with the system, which NEEDS to exist now the MGUK has such a big impact.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 12:33.

[RoutariEnjinu]

On one of the Sky interviews at Jerez, Lewis mentioned the new system stating it's not a good thing.

 

I'd imagine the ECU would ship with a crude interpolated map that will need a lot of fine tuning, as the MGUK load probably isn't perfectly mathematically scaling.

 

A simple way to test the system would be to disconnect the MGUK, and get a simple 1:1 pressure matchup with working brake bias. If it still feels wrong then, there's something fundamentally wrong, like latency in the system, slow poll rate of driver input, low resolution sensors, or something mechanical like inaccurate/inconsistent caliper load despite consistent caliper load request.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 12:32.

[V61985]

I'd imagine the ECU would ship with a crude interpolated map that will need a lot of fine tuning, as the MGUK load probably isn't perfectly mathematically scaling.

A simple way to test the system would be to disconnect the MGUK, and get a simple 1:1 pressure matchup with working brake bias. If it still feels wrong then, there's something fundamentally wrong, like latency in the system.

So in theory this new system should have the same feel and performance of the old system? Will a driver who's exceptional at late breaking with the old system still carry that advantage over to this new one?

Edited by V61985, 03 February 2014 - 12:32.

[ZionLH]

From the Mercedes press pack:

 

For Mercedes, both Nico and Lewis are not happy with how the W05 brake-by-wire works. Mercedes seems to have quite some work to do their.

Feedback from Ferrari drivers is that their brake system works well.

 

I had a feeling this was the case, especially Lewis considering last year. This system interferes with Brake balance overall, over the last few years the merc drivers would be changing the bias constantly. I guess it comes down to fine tuning but this could be quite a problem. I hope they can resolve this btw would it have to be sorted electronically.

[RoutariEnjinu]

So in theory this new system should have the same feel and performance of the old system? Will a driver who's exceptional at late breaking with the old system still carry that advantage over to this new one?

 

In theory yes.

 

Assuming the ECU is as locked down in its braking code, as it is in its throttle map code, as far as wheel speeds go, then it will be in the engineers interest to make the total sum of rear axle retardation match that on the front (minus/plus the requested bias) as possible.

 

It will be in the drivers and engineers interest to make the system as invisible as possible. Meaning the rear retardation is as the driver expects.

 

 

If the system has a decent enough poll rate, and accurate enough sensors and actuators, there's no reason it wouldn't match or even surpass the accuracy of the older hydraulic rear brakes. It's not like hydraulic brakes are theoretically perfect and consistent. Lines can bulge, fluid compresses, compression changes with temperature.

 

They may not get it right in time for the season, or even for the whole season, but theoretically there's nothing stopping them getting there, and as I said, it would be to the drivers and engineers advantage to make it as accurate and invisible as possible.

 

 

Just as the engine is now called the power unit, because it combines so many different technologies under a single foot lever, the same will go for retardation systems, united under a different single foot lever.

 

As long as the driver is getting a consistent torque to the wheels depending on how much he depresses one, and a consistent retardation to the wheels when he presses the other, it will feel like any other car. The engineers will smooth out the transitions and ratios till it feels like every other engine, and every other braking system.

 

The only things I can see coming are throttle maps that shift the emphasis of the MGUK to different areas of the throttle pedal, so you could have more bias coming from the consistent torque of an electric motor as you pull off, and maybe a brake pedal that is mapped to shift the bias depending how how far its depressed. Now sure how that could be helpful, but it's certainly no more ABS than any MGUK mapping would be TC. You could still wheel spin with one and lock with the other.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 12:48.

[thiscocks]

A real pity.  Its these sort of complications (brake bias vs ERS harvesting) which makes the cars difficult to drive.  Anything which makes the cars more difficult to drive is a plus in my book.

Agree. I think they should have just left it to the teams / drivers to tune the brake balance /  MGU-K. I wonder what the main reason was for the FIA to impliment this brake-by-wire?  

Edited by thiscocks, 03 February 2014 - 12:50.

[V61985]

Very good write up, what actually makes a certain driver much better on the brakes than others? Is it instinct, leg strength, distance awareness, bravery??

So will the drivers who are exceptional with the hydraulic brakes carry that advantage over to the brake by wire system?
Is there also more chance of a failure if it's done electronically? Surely there isn't because the outcome would be catastrophic.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Agree. I think they should have just left it to the teams / drivers to tune the brake balance /  MGU-K. I wonder what the main reason was for the FIA to impliment this brake-by-wire?  

 

I suppose the MGUK has the potential to put far more drag on the drivetrain than the old KERS units did, requiring massive changes in brake bias.

That and the fact the engines are more abstracted now, and when they charge, for how long, and at what rate needs to be decided by the engine map and the current engine state.

 

I guess without it they'd have to keep an eye on the battery level, and before each corner, adjust the harvesting rate, and then massively adjust the brake bias to match up with it, and hope they got both variables right when they stand on the brakes.

[ZionLH]

Very good write up, what actually makes a certain driver much better on the brakes than others? Is it instinct, leg strength, distance awareness, bravery?

So will the drivers who are exceptional with the hydraulic brakes carry that advantage over to the brake by wire system?
Is there also more chance of a failure if it's done electronically? Surely there isn't because the outcome would be catastrophic.

 

All of that mate, for example Lewis was struggling last year because the car was not pitching in the braking zone . In the mclaren he could brake and it would dip down in the braking zone. In the Merc it would rise up due to the FRIC. The car was not giving him confidence in when to apply brake pressure or allow over run. His first race in australia was evident of this , if you compare that lap with his pole lap from 2012. The differences are stark. He was using Brembo instead of Carbon Industries which he had at Mclaren in that race. 

Edited by ZionLH, 03 February 2014 - 13:03.

[RoutariEnjinu]

So will the drivers who are exceptional with the hydraulic brakes carry that advantage over to the brake by wire system?
Is there also more chance of a failure if it's done electronically? Surely there isn't because the outcome would be catastrophic.

 

If the engineers (all round) have done their job right, the drivers won't notice the difference.

 

I think "tried and tested" is what's made Formula 1 less interesting. I wonder if there were concerns when the throttle control was changed from a cable to a potentiometer. What would happen if it got stuck open?

 

I bet early hydraulic brakes failed. If these electronic ones do, they still have pressure to the front wheels, and the natural drag of the engine at the rear. They won't stop competitively, but they'll still stop hard.

 

In the mean time, pads cook, disks explode, tyres burst and sometimes wheels fall off. I don't think it's worth worrying about. Pirelli last year were more of a danger to braking power than this system will be.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 13:04.

[Clatter]

If the engineers (all round) have done their job right, the drivers won't notice the difference.

 

I think "tried and tested" is what's made Formula 1 less interesting. I wonder if there were concerns when the throttle control was changed from a cable to a potentiometer. What would happen if it got stuck open?

 

I bet early hydraulic brakes failed. If these electronic ones do, they still have pressure to the front wheels, and the natural drag of the engine at the rear. They won't stop competitively, but they'll still stop hard.

 

In the mean time, pads cook, disks explode, tyres burst and sometimes wheels fall off. I don't think it's worth worrying about. Pirelli last year were more of a danger to braking power than this system will be.

There is (or should be) pressure to the rears as well.

 

a) The driver brake pedal is connected to a hydraulic master cylinder that generates a pressure source that can be applied to the rear braking circuit if the powered system is disabled.

[V61985]

All of that mate, for example Lewis was struggling last year because the car was not pitching in the braking zone . In the mclaren he could brake and it would dip down in the braking zone. In the Merc it would rise up due to the FRIC. The car was not giving him confidence in when to apply brake pressure or allow over run. His first race in australia was evident of this , if you compare that lap with his pole lap from 2012. The differences are stark. He was using Brembo instead of Carbon Industries which he had at Mclaren in that race.

I don't know if it's my imagination but he didn't seem to brake as late at the back end of his Mclaren years as he did in 07 and 08. I wonder if that was due to the Pirellis though?

Saying that he looked exceptional on the onboard footage last year on the brakes at Silverstone in his Mercedes. His closing distance to his competitors going into turn 3 was incredible.

[Risil]

I guess without it they'd have to keep an eye on the battery level, and before each corner, adjust the harvesting rate, and then massively adjust the brake bias to match up with it, and hope they got both variables right when they stand on the brakes.

 

From drivers' comments (interviews and relayed via journalists) I got the definite impression that they were worried about the new energy recovery formula requiring too much looking down at the steering wheel and flicking at switches. I can sympathize.

 

I'm not sure we've totally answered on this thread the nature of the 'increased ERS demands' that require such variability in braking torque. Is it because the ERS boost is now a permanent part of the engine's drive? So the battery has to be continually topped up and not just prepared in time for the long blast down the main straight? I liked your concept of the KERS generator and the brakes now being two parts of one overall 'retardation system'.

Edited by Risil, 03 February 2014 - 13:20.

[kimister]

In theory yes.

 

Assuming the ECU is as locked down in its braking code, as it is in its throttle map code, as far as wheel speeds go, then it will be in the engineers interest to make the total sum of rear axle retardation match that on the front (minus/plus the requested bias) as possible.

 

It will be in the drivers and engineers interest to make the system as invisible as possible. Meaning the rear retardation is as the driver expects.

 

 

If the system has a decent enough poll rate, and accurate enough sensors and actuators, there's no reason it wouldn't match or even surpass the accuracy of the older hydraulic rear brakes. It's not like hydraulic brakes are theoretically perfect and consistent. Lines can bulge, fluid compresses, compression changes with temperature.

 

They may not get it right in time for the season, or even for the whole season, but theoretically there's nothing stopping them getting there, and as I said, it would be to the drivers and engineers advantage to make it as accurate and invisible as possible.

 

 

Just as the engine is now called the power unit, because it combines so many different technologies under a single foot lever, the same will go for retardation systems, united under a different single foot lever.

 

As long as the driver is getting a consistent torque to the wheels depending on how much he depresses one, and a consistent retardation to the wheels when he presses the other, it will feel like any other car. The engineers will smooth out the transitions and ratios till it feels like every other engine, and every other braking system.

 

The only things I can see coming are throttle maps that shift the emphasis of the MGUK to different areas of the throttle pedal, so you could have more bias coming from the consistent torque of an electric motor as you pull off, and maybe a brake pedal that is mapped to shift the bias depending how how far its depressed. Now sure how that could be helpful, but it's certainly no more ABS than any MGUK mapping would be TC. You could still wheel spin with one and lock with the other.

 

So, can we assume that this new wire system can be better than old brake system in terms of operation of traction and control of wheel spin as fas as I read from posts and articles ?

[Ali_G]

From what I can tell, the system does 2 things.

 

1.  Makes brake bias a lot more predictable.

2.  It will reduce the need for a number mid lap bias adjustments.

[Jerem]

I wasn't aware of this "brake by wire thing". Could explain some bizarre lockups at the Jerez chicane last week that I saw in some videos, e.g. Kimi at the beginning of this video. What do you think?

 

[ZionLH]

I don't know if it's my imagination but he didn't seem to brake as late at the back end of his Mclaren years as he did in 07 and 08. I wonder if that was due to the Pirellis though?

Saying that he looked exceptional on the onboard footage last year on the brakes at Silverstone in his Mercedes. His closing distance to his competitors going into turn 3 was incredible.

 

Yea he had to tone back with the Pirellis. He changed brake materials after China i think. He went back to C.I. I just hope Lewis and Nico can adapt to this new system . Im quietly confident they can. If this is a problem for both drivers hopefully the team have put it on their list of priorites for the next test.

[wingwalker]

Well it's hard to tell one kind of locked up from another, but this looks like nothing unusual, probably related cold/used tires.

[Tenmantaylor]

I'm sure drivers won't like this system initially due to the difference in feel and settings but I think it's great that F1 is pioneering this technology. Advancements in this area are as important as the energy output side of the system. I imagine the options available to the engineers these days should ABS and TC become legal again would be mind boggling compared back to when they were perfected in the 90s.

[wingwalker]

Someone please explain (or provide a link) how this (or other) system could be used in any way as TC.

[PayasYouRace]

I wasn't aware of this "brake by wire thing". Could explain some bizarre lockups at the Jerez chicane last week that I saw in some videos, e.g. Kimi at the beginning of this video. What do you think?

 

 

Looks like a fairly standard front lock up to me, and as the fronts are still purely hydraulic, there won't be much difference in front lock ups.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 03 February 2014 - 14:03.

[RoutariEnjinu]

There is (or should be) pressure to the rears as well.

 

a) The driver brake pedal is connected to a hydraulic master cylinder that generates a pressure source that can be applied to the rear braking circuit if the powered system is disabled.

 

I thought that too, but Ted Kravitz said otherwise. I guess Ted got it wrong.

 

I guess the electronic system just adjust the bias on the fly then, which makes a lot more sense now.

[RoutariEnjinu]

So, can we assume that this new wire system can be better than old brake system in terms of operation of traction and control of wheel spin as fas as I read from posts and articles ?

 

You can assume it if you'd like, I've seen nothing to suggest it could be used to do anything but brake the rear axle at the level the driver demands. The most you could do is make it rule out obscene values that would induce locking under any scenario, but that would be a fixed rate, if the mapping was agnostic to the cars speed, individual wheel speeds and aero load pressing the car down. So it wouldn't be advantageous, and could be dangerous if the car got into a spin.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 15:28.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Now, if you look at a charging curve of any battery/capacitor, you will see, that it changes with time, because the internal resistance changes.

In this context it would mean that an empty ES (to use the latest buzz words) would behave different to a half empty or near full one.

Therefore requiring brake bias adjustments from corner to corner, depending on the charging state of the ES, and ideally even during the braking event, to harvest at the optimum rate.

 

Didn't even think of this. I guess its why it would be too impractical.

 

-------------------------

 

If Hybrid is the way we're going, then we need these kinds of electronics. Just as drivers don't have manual spark advance and fuel mixture anymore. It's all abstracted to a pedal for them.

 

If mapping the brake by wire systems, is a multi-dimensional map, just as it is with throttle mapping, then it will no more have ABS or traction control than the throttle map has traction control. They don't get to write their own ECU anymore. They're working on an ECU with deliberately limited functionality and flexibility.

 

The braking should, in theory, and in practice once it's mature, be as it was pre-KERS.

 

If we do see traction control or ABS come out of this, it will be because the FIA and McLaren dropped a bollock, and didn't do exactly what they did on providing engine mapping functionality. Which would make no sense.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 15:31.

[RoutariEnjinu]

You wrote some great post RE
But let me "pick" on this one for a moment.
This new system still uses the same brake hardware and all what comes with it. It's nothing magic, you can best think of it as an adjustable proportioning valve.
In the case of an electronic failure, it is required to fail in a way, that all the brake pressure coming from the rear master cylinder passes through the system/valve an goes to the rear calipers, where it will brake/****** the rear wheels, just as any other brake system.

 
Yeah that's what I thought at first too, it would make sense that it just adjusted the brake bias that's already there, but on Ted's Notebook he said a couple of times that there was no physical connection, and only the front brakes will be directly controlled, so I thought it was perhaps something more exotic.
 
And yes, when you go into that detail, as regards latency, I too feel sorry for the engineers. Especially as this is no road car, near enough the only braking drivers want to do is at the limit of adhesion of the tyre. It's going to be a massive headache, more than I first anticipated.
 

Agree, that would be the aim, but it's perhaps easier said then done - see my last post ( not saying that it is impossible, just saying that it is perhaps a bit more complex then on first sight)

Yeah, I agree. It's going to require a lot of very talented engineers, and maybe some revisions to the ECU too. It might not be too long till it's bettering the last generation of KERS braking feel though? I'm guessing that had similar problems on a smaller scale, but with no way of dynamically adjusting brake bias, other than a few clicks of a wheel and some wheel settings done to be in the ball park.

But as far as pre-KERS braking being a big challenge and a way off, I agree with you though. It's a bigger problem than I first thought.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 15:47.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Technically there is a difference between preventing something and "controlling" something.

Nail on the head. Same as they can make a throttle map for the rain to help prevent wheelspin in the wet, but it won't control wheelspin if it occurs, and it won't stop the wheels spinning if a driver stands on the accelerator.

"They're allowed brake-by-wire" sounds a bit ominous, till you realise its within the confines of the same ECU that won't allow them to control wheel torque independently of mappings and a pedal angle.

Edited by RoutariEnjinu, 03 February 2014 - 15:54.

[MikeTekRacing]

rear wheel lockup is way worse than no feel for the driver. A fast car is one the driver can feel and predict

 

 

edit...i just wrote this the other way around....no feel is way worse than rear lockup 

 

 

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 03 February 2014 - 16:16.