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Drivers: "F1 currently too slow"


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#1 F.M.

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:39

Driver's feel that the 2014 cars are currently to slow for F1, especially around the corners. GP2 cars will be able to challenge them lap time wise on certain tracks this year.

What they lost:
- 1.2s due to weight increase
- >0.5s due to harder tyres
- 20-30% of downforce
- Losses due to power unit are not mentioned ("more than enough power")

While it's expected that big strides will be made in de aero and engine department, with estimates of 4s of laptime over the course of the year (over a second before Bahrain, a second before the European races, etc.), I'm not too sure they'll be able to claw back to 2013 levels or beyond. At least not that quickly.
I really expected that the new tyres would counter the laptime deficit a bit, instead of increasing it. But it sound like Pirelli has gone overly conservative (mandatory pitstops so who cares huh?) and made the tyres not only much harder than needed, but also, and more importantly, much slower than needed.

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#2 4MEN

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:41

Not good looking. Not good sounding. More expensive. And slow... Expect a bigger drop in audience this year.



#3 dumm

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:46

Not good looking. Not good sounding. More expensive. And slow... Expect a bigger drop in audience this year.

If the competition is alright and we dont have a serial winner .. then its all gonna be fine



#4 eronrules

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:49

Alonso says driving wise, actually it's a tad better as the speed is slower and it's less tiring.

 

Sutil says that the actual power (i.e torque) is much higher than previous eras and feels more powerful than V8s

 

but, the most important thing to consider is that none of the team were running at full tilt (85% max for merc as rumors suggest). so it's harder to judge what's the fuss is about.



#5 Lemans

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:50

Why does the FIA think this is okay? A discussion about "how slow" an F1 car is should never happen.

Remember how pathetically slow the cars looked last year during the opening laps of a race? Why would the FIA increase weight when they are trying to push "efficiency"?

Surely nobody would be too offended if the cars were a little faster then recent years.



#6 Arska

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:52

I like it. My favorite F1 was about 20-25 years ago, at least as far as corner speeds are concerned. And if there's more torque and less downforce than before... even better.



#7 Andrew Hope

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:53

I'll give it one more season. Then I'll let another sport be my new 3rd-favorite racing series:

 

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#8 David1976

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:53

It's early days.

 

Let's wait until the middle of the season to see how the regulations pan out.  We have only seen the cars at a twisty track like Jerez so far and that track will only highlight the deficiencies in the tyres and lost downforce.  

 

At Spa it could be very different.



#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:53

They could be 10 seconds a lap quicker and still look slow at the start. That's what happens with full tanks.



#10 rhukkas

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:54

In the 70/80s there cars were no were nearly as finely tuned so we can the slides and the unstable cars. The cars have less grip but the engineers will dial it out completely. The slip angles will remain the same.

 

Only hardcore F1 will care about laop times... F1 could go another 10 seconds slower and no one would care.



#11 senna da silva

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:56

Alonso says driving wise, actually it's a tad better as the speed is slower and it's less tiring.

 

Sutil says that the actual power (i.e torque) is much higher than previous eras and feels more powerful than V8s

 

but, the most important thing to consider is that none of the team were running at full tilt (85% max for merc as rumors suggest). so it's harder to judge what's the fuss is about.

 

Button also said the engine feels like the most powerful he's ever driven because of the torque.  :up:



#12 eronrules

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:57

but i guess for most of us (i.e TV viewers), the biggest issue is how the pictures are captured. i've seen a trend recently to use too much motion contol (both on board and circuit cams) which makes the cars seems slower, specially at mid speed corners. perhaps it's only me but i dunno, they don't feel fast, and it's not just last year, i'd say since Sky took over and added their HD feed. 

 

 

this feeling is even more accentuated by the drab dull grey circuits with close walls (i.e korea, india, china etc or Tilke domes in general). large  runoff areas are also a problem as they remove some of the feeling of speed. 

 

we need some feel of speed on the Telly, and specially some vibration on the on-board cams, along with more raw sound. 


Edited by eronrules, 04 February 2014 - 16:00.


#13 Afterburner

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:59

If the competition is alright and we dont have a serial winner .. then its all gonna be fine

Yes, because serial randomness is much more exciting. Sounds like the FIA's official party line. :stoned:

#14 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 15:59

Well at Jerez  they were already lapping at 1990s F1 pace so they're not exactly slow.



#15 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:00

As long as F1 is the fastest road circuit sport in the world, I'm happy.

If GP2 is a genuine threat to F1 this year in that regard, its concerning. And I mean in a direct comparison way, not a 'GP2 pole time was faster than a Caterham race lap' way.

#16 Andrew Hope

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:01

but i guess for most of us (i.e TV viewers), the biggest issue is how the pictures are captured. i've seen a trend recently to use too much motion contol (both on board and circuit cams) which makes the cars seems slower, specially at mid speed corners. perhaps it's only me but i dunno, they don't feel fast, and it's not just last year, i'd say since Sky took over and added their HD feed. 

 

 

this feeling is even more accentuated by the drab dull grey circuits with close walls (i.e korea, india, china etc or Tilke domes in general). large  runoff areas are also a problem as they remove some of the feeling of speed. 

 

we need some feel of speed on the Telly, and specially some vibration on the on-board cams, along with more raw sound

 

The Japanese GP last year there was a problem with the commentator feed and all you could hear was the cars and it was glorious. It's like there's a filter on them on TV or something.



#17 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:10

but i guess for most of us (i.e TV viewers), the biggest issue is how the pictures are captured. i've seen a trend recently to use too much motion contol (both on board and circuit cams) which makes the cars seems slower, specially at mid speed corners. perhaps it's only me but i dunno, they don't feel fast, and it's not just last year, i'd say since Sky took over and added their HD feed. 

 

 

this feeling is even more accentuated by the drab dull grey circuits with close walls (i.e korea, india, china etc or Tilke domes in general). large  runoff areas are also a problem as they remove some of the feeling of speed. 

 

we need some feel of speed on the Telly, and specially some vibration on the on-board cams, along with more raw sound. 

I've said for some time that F1's biggest problem is that it doesn't convey the violence that is involved in driving an F1 car, the buffeting the driver takes. Sure, the g-force meter helps, but unless we've all felt our heads weighing 4 times as much as the usually do, then it'd pretty meaningless. I don't claim to know the answer, but if they found a way to do it, it would shut a lot of people up, who say all the do is sit down and drive in circles



#18 senna da silva

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:10

Considering that at the very first test of this year with brand new systems and new powerpacks they were faster than GP2 cars were at the same track last year, and said track is short and twisty, I don't think there's going to be a problem.



#19 Atreiu

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:12

I'm not worried, actually. It's one thing to test and another to race. And there obviously remains plenty of room for improvement and gains.


Edited by Atreiu, 04 February 2014 - 16:13.


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#20 Lotus53B

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:26

I do find this interesting - I've dug out my collection of videotapes (I know, how quaint) dating back to the mid-80s and when I got them to play back, the cars look much faster, even though they weren't.  Maybe the TV producers need to channel Frankenheimer to see how it's done.



#21 barrykm

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:28

Well then,perhaps we may see some more genuine overtaking..?



#22 barrykm

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:28

Well then, perhaps we may see some more genuine overtaking..?



#23 GlenP

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:35

Considering that at the very first test of this year with brand new systems and new powerpacks they were faster than GP2 cars were at the same track last year, and said track is short and twisty, I don't think there's going to be a problem.

Absolutely. There is no basis for claiming that these cars are slower than GP2!



#24 Fastcake

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:36

As long as F1 is the fastest road circuit sport in the world, I'm happy.

If GP2 is a genuine threat to F1 this year in that regard, its concerning. And I mean in a direct comparison way, not a 'GP2 pole time was faster than a Caterham race lap' way.

 

If that looks likely to happen, they'll just lower the GP2 rev limit, or give them slightly harder tyres. Easy to do when Bernie controls both series.

 

We're not going to see that however.


Edited by Fastcake, 04 February 2014 - 16:37.


#25 rhukkas

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:39

Super Formula has a real chance to match F1 pace. In race pace there could be potential to outpace F1



#26 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:40

GP2's pace was arbitrarily decided at the beginning anyway. It's not like they're a competing series that F1 should be trying their hardest to beat.



#27 rhukkas

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:42

I do find this interesting - I've dug out my collection of videotapes (I know, how quaint) dating back to the mid-80s and when I got them to play back, the cars look much faster, even though they weren't.  Maybe the TV producers need to channel Frankenheimer to see how it's done.

 

Though I have absolutely no evidence an F1 car in 86, in quali spec, probably would outpace a modern F1 once traction/corner speeds are factored out of the equation.

 

The Lotus 98T in qualifying was putting out around 1200-1400hp and weight just 540hp. So that's more power and less weight han a modern F1 and I hesitate to say less drag too. I'd love to see some actual data.



#28 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:42

If that looks likely to happen, they'll just lower the GP2 rev limit, or give them slightly harder tyres. Easy to do when Bernie controls both series.
 
We're not going to see that however.

And what about WSBR?

#29 Guest_4L3X_*

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:44

I've said for some time that F1's biggest problem is that it doesn't convey the violence that is involved in driving an F1 car, the buffeting the driver takes. Sure, the g-force meter helps, but unless we've all felt our heads weighing 4 times as much as the usually do, then it'd pretty meaningless. I don't claim to know the answer, but if they found a way to do it, it would shut a lot of people up, who say all the do is sit down and drive in circles

 

Put google glass on some drivers and offer a PPV channel just with his feed.  I'd watch and pay.  No IS optics, just 1st person perpective: the helmet, the limited vision, the sweat, the heavy briefing.  That would be fun even if cut during live regular transmission.



#30 Jon83

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:51

I think the whole thing is farcical.



#31 Fastcake

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:54

I had to look up what Super Formula actually was then. Since when did Formula Nippon change it's name?

 

And what about WSBR?

 

Does WSBR even match GP2's pace? Since it doesn't run alongside F1, I doubt anyone would really notice if it moved within range anyway.



#32 alfa1

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:54

I've said for some time that F1's biggest problem is that it doesn't convey the violence that is involved in driving an F1 car, the buffeting the driver takes.

This, very much.

The sterile cleanliness of the cars doesnt help at all. On TV, they look like space age smooth sleek robot made *products*, free of imperfections. I want them to look like man made machines. Steel, held together with nuts and bolts. Where you can see they've been welded together. Where it may actually be possible to see some grease, or a last minute bracket made to hold something from vibrating, or anything that shows evidence that humans made it. I dont want them to look like ipads.

 

But to the original question, I dont think the absolute speed is all that important. What is important is how the drivers get there.

Racing ballsout as fast as you can to get to a lap time of 1:30 is better satisfaction to a driver and a viewer, than a moderated fuel economy tyre saving strategy run at 1:25.



#33 rhukkas

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 16:58

Other than the neck F1 isn't that physically demanding any more. A KZ kart is more violent. they can braek your ribs without even crashing. You would struggle to lap one of those for 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon at full chat.



#34 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:06

Driver's feel that the 2014 cars are currently to slow for F1, especially around the corners. GP2 cars will be able to challenge them lap time wise on certain tracks this year.

What they lost:
- 1.2s due to weight increase - hardly unnatural. Weight related slowness is not a slowness at all!
- >0.5s due to harder tyres - 0.5 s is nothing
- 20-30% of downforce - Isn't it what everyone wanted? Reduce the aero, reduce the aero, reduce the aero a lot!
- Losses due to power unit are not mentioned ("more than enough power") - Wud be gained to a fair degree given the scope of energy regeneration systems.

While it's expected that big strides will be made in de aero and engine department, with estimates of 4s of laptime over the course of the year (over a second before Bahrain, a second before the European races, etc.), I'm not too sure they'll be able to claw back to 2013 levels or beyond. At least not that quickly.
I really expected that the new tyres would counter the laptime deficit a bit, instead of increasing it. But it sound like Pirelli has gone overly conservative (mandatory pitstops so who cares huh?) and made the tyres not only much harder than needed, but also, and more importantly, much slower than needed.

As for tyres: I think we are complaining way too much. We did not like fast-degrading Pirellis. So let us boot on the nicely durable Pirellis and get on with it.

 

BTW, I have even lost count of the active and proposed rules. Is that mandatory 60%laps on hards-40%laps on softs joke of a rule this year? Has it really been implemented? Gosh, I have lost count of the number of idiotic rules.. Total sham and nothing but show. I am with the Indian Government on this one - F1 is not a sport, it is entertainment business.



#35 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:09

Does WSBR even match GP2's pace? Since it doesn't run alongside F1, I doubt anyone would really notice if it moved within range anyway.

Doesn't really matter if it runs alongside F1 or not. There aren't that many people who follow feeder series in general, especially with the lack of coverage nowadays, but there is a certain element of prestige that would be completely gone if a series(any series, I only mention GP2 and WSBR because they are closest at the moment) outpaces F1 cars. Its the same thing with MotoGP bikes. If there was something faster, whether it was a popular known fact or not, the prestige is knocked down a level. *One* of the things that makes F1 a true pinnacle of road racing is its 'faster than everything else' tag. A feeder series deposing it in terms of speed would be embarrassing.

Comment by SpaMaster:

*Weight related slowness is not a slowness at all!*

Haha, but you're going to have to explain that more, cuz I honest to god laughed when I read that considering how ridiculous it sounds.

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 February 2014 - 17:12.


#36 Miggeex

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:18

It's not as fast in corners anymore for the lack of downforce but power is still very impressive and that combination should make it look cool. I'm cautiously confident that all the snap-oversteer moments, unstable brakings and powerslides generally will make it exciting to watch. I like watching the lower series for those reasons. 

 

But I can understand if some drivers are naturally complaining about lack of downforce after going on rails for all those years  :rolleyes:



#37 bub

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:23

It'll get quicker. I don't really care about F1 being physically demanding. I'm more interested in it being technically and mentally challenging, requiring skill and judgement more so than physical attributes. I don't mind F1 being a bit slower if the racing is better (more overtaking, less purposely going slow to save tyres etc) but with the fuel saving I'm not sure that will be the case. 


Edited by bub, 04 February 2014 - 18:26.


#38 froggy22

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:26

I would have thought the potential time to gain over the coming years is quite high given its a relatively new formula. Plus it's only the first test and the cars weren't even being driven at 90% yet.



#39 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:27

But I can understand if some drivers are naturally complaining about lack of downforce after going on rails for all those years  :rolleyes:

I don't think the complaint is that they aren't on rails anymore, its that they feel slower to drive. Sutil perhaps enjoys taking corners at very high speeds and anything that slows that down is a detriment to his driving enjoyment.

I mean, I cant speak for him, but I imagine that's what he's trying to say. Not that its too difficult to drive or anything. These guys don't get to where they are without the skills to handle a lower downforce race car. Sutil started out in F1 with Spyker, don't forget!

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 February 2014 - 17:28.


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#40 Fastcake

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:27

Doesn't really matter if it runs alongside F1 or not. There aren't that many people who follow feeder series in general, especially with the lack of coverage nowadays, but there is a certain element of prestige that would be completely gone if a series(any series, I only mention GP2 and WSBR because they are closest at the moment) outpaces F1 cars. Its the same thing with MotoGP bikes. If there was something faster, whether it was a popular known fact or not, the prestige is knocked down a level. *One* of the things that makes F1 a true pinnacle of road racing is its 'faster than everything else' tag. A feeder series deposing it in terms of speed would be embarrassing.

 

 

Well looking at the qualifying times for Hungary, WSBR is over 10 seconds slower than F1's time. I really doubt the cars have lost that much time, so there's nothing to really to worry about from feeder series outpacing F1.



#41 V61985

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:29







These clips onboard with Mansell give the perfect view on how fast racing cars go, the camera is at the perfect height and location to show the sense of speed. The Indycars of 93 are nowhere near the performance of modern F1 cars so just imagine how insane a F1 car would look with the same camera.

#42 billm99uk

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:32

It's the start of an entire new formula. I expect they'll get faster very quickly as a result.



#43 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:37

An excess of torque and a deficit of downforce could be a recipe for superior racing. In which case lap times will quickly be forgotten. Worse case scenario is that that for 2015 they let the wing size creep back up.

#44 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:38

I like it. My favorite F1 was about 20-25 years ago, at least as far as corner speeds are concerned. And if there's more torque and less downforce than before... even better.

This!

If the racing is good and drivers are sliding every-now-and-then I'm all for it. I'm just worried about the fuel limit... Not the mass flow rate which is fine (if it had been more then the engines would be more powerful).

The downforce vs power ratio was massively skewed last year. Now you'll have about the same power but much less downforce.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 04 February 2014 - 17:39.


#45 Treads

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:42

Doesn't really matter if it runs alongside F1 or not. There aren't that many people who follow feeder series in general, especially with the lack of coverage nowadays, but there is a certain element of prestige that would be completely gone if a series(any series, I only mention GP2 and WSBR because they are closest at the moment) outpaces F1 cars. Its the same thing with MotoGP bikes. If there was something faster, whether it was a popular known fact or not, the prestige is knocked down a level. *One* of the things that makes F1 a true pinnacle of road racing is its 'faster than everything else' tag. A feeder series deposing it in terms of speed would be embarrassing.

Comment by SpaMaster:

*Weight related slowness is not a slowness at all!*

Haha, but you're going to have to explain that more, cuz I honest to god laughed when I read that considering how ridiculous it sounds.

 

Indeed, tell that to Colin Chapman! "Going faster through adding lightness"



#46 wingwalker

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:45

Isn't tad early for a thread like that? The most running so far happened on day 4 in Jerez on damp track and no one was going for lap times anyway. ,Half of the grid was going for getting going at failing at it and every quote from the drives who actually run was "it's going be lot quicker, we ain't pushin, aero is still not there yadda yadda".

 

 

As for perception of speed on tv, the modern way of zooming in and out so gives a nice view of sponsors logos but it kills the sensation of speed as it's impossible to know how fast the car is moving in relation to the track because you can hardly see the track. Plus the already mentioned oceans of tarmac everwhere. Oh and the improvement in image stability on the onboards. Watch any onboard from early 90's in Monaco, it seems way quicker than anything, but it's not. 



#47 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:50

2003-2004 saw the peak of F1 performance and lap records from that time still stand. Yet you'd have to have serious self-loathing to want to live through some of those races again.

#48 RealRacing

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:54

What they lost:
- 1.2s due to weight increase
- >0.5s due to harder tyres
- 20-30% of downforce
- Losses due to power unit are not mentioned ("more than enough power")
 

I don't think an increase in lap time by even as much as 2-3 secs can be noticed, especially on TV. Anyway, I'd rather have a close race with cars battling on track which is 5 secs per lap slower than an aseptic pit to pit sprint.  Harder tyres seem fine as long as they can be pushed more than last year's cheese. 20-30% less downforce sounds great if it means chasing cars can follow closer and drivers have to control the cars better on turns. Take away the ugliness and start cleaning the stupid rules and this might just improve enough to be more enjoyable again.



#49 Darrenj

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 17:58

"The best lap time of the test set by Kevin Magnussen was eight seconds off the best ever lap time set in testing at the Spanish track by Michael Schumacher back in 2004."

 

In a ten year span.... one step forward two steps back!

Disgraceful :confused: :confused:

 

Formula E it is gents   



#50 ollebompa

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 18:02

2003-2004 saw the peak of F1 performance and lap records from that time still stand. Yet you'd have to have serious self-loathing to want to live through some of those races again.

 

I, and i'm not being sarcastic or nostalgic, absolutely loved those races. I also enjoy Seb winning by 30 seconds. I get my satisfaction from the perfection. 


Edited by ollebompa, 04 February 2014 - 18:05.