34 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

In dumb news,

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112480

 

 

National Formula 3 championships in Europe - including the British - have been warned by the FIA that they may not be able to use the 'F3' name, AUTOSPORT understands.

 

The move follows the FIA F3 European Championship's switch to engines conforming to the international governing body's new regulations for 2014.

 

(...)

 

It is understood that the DMSB, which sanctions the German F3 Cup, has received a similar communication.

For 2014, both British and German F3 will use older engines and electronics on cost grounds, as there is a surfeit of this equipment available.

 

(...)

 

Yeah.

 

Seriously this is just plain idiotic, FIA wants to clarify things hence they complicate things by imposing totally bizarre bureaucratic nonsense. Well done. 

[dau]

Well, Berger wanted to unify the multitude of incomparable series, so that kinda makes sense in that respect. They're setting certain standards for what F3 is supposed to be and if you can't adhere to them, you can't call yourself an F3 series. Whether those standards are good is another story of course.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don't think it complicates things by requiring that series that call themselves F3, actually run to F3 rules. 

[noikeee]

Well, Berger wanted to unify the multitude of incomparable series, so that kinda makes sense in that respect. They're setting certain standards for what F3 is supposed to be and if you can't adhere to them, you can't call yourself an F3 series. Whether those standards are good is another story of course.

 

 

I don't think it complicates things by requiring that series that call themselves F3, actually run to F3 rules. 

 

A little bit of common sense would go a long way. They've obviously made a decision to use last year's cars/engines. Those were accepted by the rules as Formula 3 cars up until very recently. The rules might have changed but they stop being Formula 3 cars?

 

What's forcing them to run as "British Historical Formula 3" or "British Formula of Formula 3 Cars" or whatever other convoluted nonsense they have to come up with, actually achieves beyond confusion?

[Richard T]

Formula 3 lites?

[PayasYouRace]

I'd say if a series wants to be a Formula 3 series is should run to F3 rules. It's not like they can't change their name.

 

You could have Formula Britain (like when Japanese F3000 became Formula Nippon) or adopt the sponsor's name or whatever. These aren't classic or historic cars, so they wouldn't be able to use that in conjuction with the same name. I seem to remember something about what the FIA considers "classic" or "historic" and year old cars wouldn't fall into that category. It's not like the FIA Historic Formula One Championship. Plus that gives the impression of wealthy amateurs racing as a hobby, not a feeder series.

[Ross Stonefeld]

A little bit of common sense would go a long way. They've obviously made a decision to use last year's cars/engines. Those were accepted by the rules as Formula 3 cars up until very recently. The rules might have changed but they stop being Formula 3 cars?

 

 

 

Ultimately a car is defined by the rulebook. And that will be chassis AND engne. From a common sense perspective a 2011 Dallara-Honda is an 'Indycar' but good luck getting it past the tech line at the first race of 2012 with the new Dallara-Honda.

 

So it's a similar thing. Every non-FIA F3 car is an obsolete and out of spec car.

 

Though they need to find a workable solution, because allowing 'poor man's F3' has been good for single seater racing, imo. If F3 Open(Spanish F3 in the olden days) has to be called Formula Europa or something it will be "wtf is that?" and I bet you'd see a change in grid sizes only because of name change 

[SophieB]

Call it 'Old F3'.

[dau]

A little bit of common sense would go a long way. They've obviously made a decision to use last year's cars/engines. Those were accepted by the rules as Formula 3 cars up until very recently. The rules might have changed but they stop being Formula 3 cars?

 

What's forcing them to run as "British Historical Formula 3" or "British Formula of Formula 3 Cars" or whatever other convoluted nonsense they have to come up with, actually achieves beyond confusion?

Because the idea behind that is to have comparable F3 series worldwide. At the moment, they're all called F3, most are using the Dallara spec chassis, but there are wildly differing regulations for the engines, for example. Just last year, we had John Bryant-Meisner from German F3 Cup joining British F3 as a guest driver for three races, getting two poles almost a second clear of the BF3 cars and winning both races. Was he just that good? Or was that mainly because his VW engine from GF3 was much more powerful and had a push-to-pass boost option they later had to disconnect for the race? BF3 later banned the use of GF3 cars in their races, because it just wasn't a fair competition. So what's the point of having series labeled 'F3' everywhere when the regulations are totally different and you can't compare them in any way?

Edited by dau, 11 February 2014 - 15:00.

[Imateria]

Just another silly symptom of the fact that the FIA has no control over the single seater ladder.

[Frank Tuesday]

Formula 3 lites?

FU3?

[sheepgobba]

Wow... the FIA are still such incompetent bunch of morons even outside of F1 

[TimRTC]

Call it Formula 3.5?

[RottenAli]

Why not call it Formula Tree?
And stick in a few rounds in Ireland.

[Bloggsworth]

Given that F3 pre-dates the modern era, I don't see how they can back-date an appellation.

[SealTheDiffuser]

I remember that as a child when I found this facinating thing of motorracing called "Formula 1" (on myself I found it hahah on the TV thing ), I really wondered why it was called "Formula" , this really was a strange concept for me calling this motorracing sport a "Formula".

 

 

( also very puzzling I found that the commentator said that some cars were suckers and others turbos... Sauger ("sucker" ) is the shortform of Saugmotor = German for NAE...  Turbo at least sounded technical, but as a child I really wondered why Sauger, what were they sucking... it sounded ridiculous to me....)  so much nostalgia for today...

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 13 February 2014 - 21:33.

[redreni]

They're Formula 3 cars whether they comply to the current FIA Formula 3 European Chamionship rulebook or not, in the same was that the Brabham BT52 is a Formula 1 car even though it doesn't comform to the current regulations. However, if you held a championship for Brabham BT52s and other F1 cars of similar vintage, it arguably wouldn't be a Formula 1 championship. But you could call it something like "historic F1".

 

I don't think it makes sense to ban the national associations such as the MSA and DMSB from having the words "formula 3" in the title of their Formula 3 championships at all because they are Formula 3 cars, just slightly out-of-date ones. But I can see why the FIA would want some differentiation in the naming of series and championships that are not conforming to the current rules as compared with ones that are.

 

As the bloke who runs F3 open went on record as saying (I'm paraphrasing from memory here, but it was along these lines), the new engines are in many ways worse than the old ones, F3 Open is going to call itself something else and it is going to be dramtically cheaper than FIA F3 European Championship and a second a lap faster, so when you look at it like that, what's in a name?

[KWSN - DSM]

Correct me if I am wrong, there have never been a decree that F3 cars build to previous F3 regulations had to drop the F3 moniker. And that same go for any Formula 'X', they do not suddenly become Eurosupserspecseriessomthing, they remain as what they were running to their rules and regulations.

 

Once more the sport is dabbling in what needs no dabbling.

 

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don't think the rules have changed as much as they have now. The engines regs are different for the first time in a long long while. So old F3 cars dont meet F3 rules anymore. Whereas before 2014, older spec F3 cars were still F3 cars. 

 

It's mainly an engine issue.

[KWSN - DSM]

They have changed the engines multiple times since F3 was created, I can not really follow that this change is any reason to break with how they have handled this for the past 60 years.

 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well lots of things have changed in the last 60 years.

 

There are several things going on now.

 

-Over the last decade or so the various F3 categories were moving way from each other in specification. I think only British and Euroseries F3 were following the FIA rulebook. German and Spanish/Euro Open were not. In Germany's case, definitely not. The engine was not legal, whereas in Spain it was a long-life detuned version. And even within that the 'legal' F3 series there were differences. Brit and European F3 had different suspension rules so a Brit F3 car wouldn't pass Euroseries tech and vice versa.

 

-The FIA had a more hands off approach because there was no true FIA F3 series. There is now. So they're more strict about the rulebook and enforcing the F3 name. Unlike Formula 3000, Formula Renault, any other name you can think of; F3 is more locked into a rulebook as an official FIA series.

 

-The engines are a big change. They were formerly a production based block. Now they are a dedicated racing engine from the ground up. There are also electronic changes and for the first time a move to paddle shifting on the wheel. There was a waiver/delay granted for last year. Only Japanese F3 was running to the correct engine rules and for a time it looked like Macau wouldn't allow non-current cars. In the end they did but only for 2013.

 

So the FIA is just telling everyone to get in line and follow the rules. If you want to be called F3 you have to act like F3. Previous spec F3 cars are no longer legal.

[KWSN - DSM]

I am not doubting the legality of engines prior and now, and if the various series were never run to F3 regulations then they should never have been named F3. I also understand that previous specification F3 cars are no longer allowed to race in the current F3 championship(s), they are however still F3 cars.

 

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sure, in a casual sense. Like a 2011 Dallara-Honda is still an Indycar. But you can't race them under that name anymore. The cars become obsolete in a certain configuration. Though at least in F3 you have the option to update your configuration to match rule changes. In most other series your equipment becomes obsolete.

 

They should have found a solution within the old Class B Or National format, that allowed for older equipment to continue. But for whatever reason that doesn't seem to be allowed. But there's a lot less wriggle room allowed when a series becomes full-FIA rather than just administered by a regional FIA office. 

 

People are acting like British F3 is being retroactively erased but that's not happening at all. You just have to continue to follow F3 rules if you want to continue to be called F3. Whether calling the car or series that name.

[KWSN - DSM]

Ok now I finally get it.

 

[Dolph]

So what are the major changes then?

[redreni]

Sure, in a casual sense. Like a 2011 Dallara-Honda is still an Indycar. But you can't race them under that name anymore. The cars become obsolete in a certain configuration. Though at least in F3 you have the option to update your configuration to match rule changes. In most other series your equipment becomes obsolete.

 

 

 

No, in other categories common sense prevails. E.g. when they changed the regs in V8 Supercars they did not insist that everybody in the V8 Supercars Development Series upgraded to the new equipment straight away - there was a period of grace for them to run old spec cars, otherwise the cost of competing in the Development Series would have been prohibitive. When the BTCC changed from Super 2000 to NGTC regs, they didn't een insist that everybody in the main series invested in the new equipment straight away. Even F1 allowed backmarker teams to run grandfathered, de-tuned V10s for a year after the V8 regs came in because they recognised there weren't enough new engines available, or at any rate some teams couldn't afford them.

 

Gerhardt Berger had a vision of a single FIA F3 European Championship, with national feeder series that know their place, stick mostly or entirely to racing in their home countries, and do not try to compete with the FIA F3 European Championship, let alone with things like GP3, FR2.0 etc. In that he has largely suceeded; the Euroseries no longer exists, and British F3 has had to scale back enormously and stop going to Pau and various continental F1 circuits. So well done, Gerhardt, but I'm afraid if he thinks it is remotely feasible, cost-wise, for the entire field in British F3, German F3, F3 Open etc to shell out for the latest cars and engines when there is an abundance of old spec equipment available at very reasonable prices, he's mistaken. In any other category, the sanctioning body would recognise that and accept the fact that the rules for national F3 series allow for older spec cars to run.

Edited by redreni, 14 February 2014 - 22:01.

[noikeee]

Bumping this cause there's a Autosport article on how Zandvoort Masters has the same issue and will run "non-F3 cars" this year:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112562

 

(haven't actually read it as I'm saving Autosport article views, so don't know the specifics)

 

I remain on the same camp as Redreni posted above - well done to Gerhard Berger for his well intentioned clean up of the ladder but a little flexibility on this issue wouldn't be unreasonable. Perhaps an intermediate solution could be negotiated such as allowing 1 or 2 years of the old cars running under the F3 denomination, provided they're detuned in order not to beat up-to-date F3 laptimes. Or something along these lines. I understand pressure needs to be done to standardize F3 all around, but at the same time you cannot realistically expect everyone to suddenly buy new equipment when so much of the old equipment is available. Ultimately forcing established series to change name for the sake of correctness won't really accomplish anything other than complicate the history books, and confuse sponsors when drivers and teams explain to them what the hell they're running in 2014.

Edited by noikeee, 19 February 2014 - 23:48.

[Risil]

When I think of the series making a mess out of the F1 ladder, national-level F3 series aren't the ones that come to mind first.

[noikeee]

True, but they can't exactly go around and outlaw all the various forms of Formula Renault, Auto GP, whatever other formulas are deemed redundant to focus on F3 -> GP2 -> F1 (or whatever other simplified "proper progression" they decide on). I actually think it's good that there's some variety and choice, imagine the costs if the ladder was all centered around a single monopoly of series at every level.    So they fiddle with what they can.

 

Unless there was a major breakthrough in a new model of series, F2 was supposed to be that, drivers not assigned directly to teams, costs reduced as much as possible. Ultimately it didn't work.

[billm99uk]

They should have gone with "I Can't Believe it's not F3!" ;)

[ExFlagMan]

Common Sense Rules

According to the Autosport web site it looks like the FIA has seen sense and F3 series can use the F3 name for their series provided that they run cars that conformed to the F3 regulations when the cars where built.

[redreni]

Common Sense Rules

According to the Autosport web site it looks like the FIA has seen sense and F3 series can use the F3 name for their series provided that they run cars that conformed to the F3 regulations when the cars where built.

 

Good news. Let's hope this minor outbreak of sanity and reasonableness at FIA HQ is contagious.

[917k]

F3 Classic?

[balage06]

I'm not sure if it's worth its own thread so I'll ask it here:

 

The Zandvoort Masters of 'definitely not F3' is on this weekend, but the only article I found about the entry list on the circuit's website mentions 5 national drivers:

 

Max Verstappen (Motorpark)

Indy Dontje (Motorpark)

Dennis van de Laar (Double R)

Jules Symkowiak (Van Amersfoort)

Steijn Schothorst (Performance)

 

and 6 more international drivers:

 

Nabil Jeffri (Motorpark)

Sam MacLeod (Van Amersfoort)

Andy Chang (Double R)

Camren Kaminsky (Double R)

Nikita Zlobin (ADM)

Martin Cao

 

That's it? Only 11 drivers will compete this year?

[Brandz07]

I'm not sure if it's worth its own thread so I'll ask it here:

 

The Zandvoort Masters of 'definitely not F3' is on this weekend, but the only article I found about the entry list on the circuit's website mentions 5 national drivers:

 

Max Verstappen (Motorpark)

Indy Dontje (Motorpark)

Dennis van de Laar (Double R)

Jules Symkowiak (Van Amersfoort)

Steijn Schothorst (Performance)

 

and 6 more international drivers:

 

Nabil Jeffri (Motorpark)

Sam MacLeod (Van Amersfoort)

Andy Chang (Double R)

Camren Kaminsky (Double R)

Nikita Zlobin (ADM)

Martin Cao

 

That's it? Only 11 drivers will compete this year?

 

It's not too surprising considering the amount of drivers that run in these cars full time. It's a shame they aren't running the F312's.