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Jacques Villeneuve: Modern F1 is a fake show [split]


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#101 jonpollak

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:18

PolyannaBrundle, self serving, product protecting ,clap trap. This sorry ass world needs more JV.

Jp

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#102 Lazy

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:26

Yeah, the world needs more people to speak their mind, it's a shame in JV's case that his mind isn't more to speak about.



#103 jonpollak

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:50

Think that up all by yourself did ya?

Jp

#104 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:50

I agree with Jacques

 

The song remains the same, F1 needs less aero dependent grip, unlimited tires of any compound making DRS obsolete, no double points races.

I propose that they have double races for the last two or three meetings, double header weekends! Q Saturday AM, race Saturday afternoon, finishing order of the race on Saturday sets the grid for the race on Sunday .. Simple. standard points system for the races, Race one DNF = TFB you start from the back in race two!


Edited by SlateGray, 15 February 2014 - 18:53.


#105 Lazy

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:52

Think that up all by yourself did ya?

Jp

Yup :)



#106 Lights

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 18:55

@MBrundleF1: Angers me when former F1 drivers stick a boot into F1 for publicity. They had privileged chances, success,cash. Give something positive back

 

I find this really weak of Brundle. His comment is just as much done for 'publicity' as what Jacques said, if not more because anything Martin says is basically promotion for Sky. And he wasn't asked to open his mouth, Jacques was. Yet Brundle's comment will be perceived as the 'good' one. 'Angers me'.



#107 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 19:12

I think the point he's trying to make is that all the "old" rules had to do with the sport - safety, fairness and to keep the laps times approximately the same as the years go by.

The "new" rules are just put in to "improve the show", to "add some spice", and to try to get larger TV audiences (which equals more money for the promoter).

 

There's certainly truth in that. :up:

 

Yet Brundle's comment will be perceived as the 'good' one. 'Angers me'.

 

It's quite interesting, isn't it?

 

'Martin Brundle, who works reporting on F1 and promoting his broadcast, urges former F1 world champion not to be critical of F1.' :lol:

 

Please.


Edited by Nonesuch, 15 February 2014 - 19:12.


#108 sennafan24

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 19:14

I find this really weak of Brundle. His comment is just as much done for 'publicity' as what Jacques said, if not more because anything Martin says is basically promotion for Sky. And he wasn't asked to open his mouth, Jacques was. Yet Brundle's comment will be perceived as the 'good' one. 'Angers me'.

Kind of agree.

 

The Brundle comment of "give something back" is not entirely accurate. Are we to expect that former F1 drivers have to sit back and enjoy whatever rules and regulations F1 higher ups come up with?

 

Ex-drivers speaking out against the new rules like double points is in a way giving something positive back, as it shows the higher ups that it is not just a small section of hardcore fans that do not approve of artificial regulations like double points.

 

When you consider that most current drivers do not approve of the double points rule as well, guys like J,V are reinforcing a point that needs to be made. J.V is giving something positive back by voicing his concern that the fans and current drivers in F1 are getting a raw deal.



#109 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 19:18

hello?

 

this is a basic formula, you can't have ultimate performance with 100% reliability. That is the nature of the bleeding edge.

 

The fundamentals do not change because technology advanced.

The formula is not as basic as you make it out to be, as for one it involves statistical variance.  The more precision you have in manufacturing, the more predictable the reliability of the part is going to be.  With ideal precision, and no other source of variation, you can theoretically have perfect reliability at the optimal level of performance, and guaranteed failure at just a nudge over the optimal level of performance.  In that case, there is no trade-off, you'd be an idiot to run the part at anything other than optimal performance.



#110 uffen

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 19:34

JV please! STOP! Not your business anymore. But in some points I agree with him.

Well, if "not your business anymore" applies to JV, what does that say for every single person on this forum?

People with years of professional racing behind them have a right to be heard (esp. when someone from the media asks them), just as much as we armchair pundits.

 

P.S. I agree with JV wholeheartedly (and I was not a fan of his when he was racing).



#111 uffen

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 19:44

Internet polls and other surveys ARE the impossibly inconsequential minority.

So your contrary information is from...?



#112 Ali_G

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 20:39

So your contrary information is from...?


Casual fans who don't understand turbulence in corners etc, must find DRS even more baffling than the hard core fans.

#113 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 22:31

Internet polls and other surveys ARE the impossibly inconsequential minority.

 

That sounds like a Bernie statement when 90odd % of everyone shot down the double points rule...



#114 Eff One 2002

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 00:19

Well, if "not your business anymore" applies to JV, what does that say for every single person on this forum?

People with years of professional racing behind them have a right to be heard (esp. when someone from the media asks them), just as much as we armchair pundits.

 

P.S. I agree with JV wholeheartedly (and I was not a fan of his when he was racing).

So very true. Well said. Jacques once again speaks FULL TRUTH. F1 lost its way some time ago sadly...



#115 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 00:30

That sounds like a Bernie statement when 90odd % of everyone shot down the double points rule...

 

Double Points is one of those things that has near unanimous support. The pet grip of the week on the internet rarely does.



#116 HeadFirst

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 00:36

I'm a fan of JV. I don't always agree with him, but I do enjoy hearing what he has to say. This time however, I am in agreement with what he has to say.



#117 phoenix101

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 00:44

@MBrundleF1: Angers me when former F1 drivers stick a boot into F1 for publicity. They had privileged chances, success,cash. Give something positive back

 

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism



#118 ClubmanGT

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 00:48

Everytime Villeneueve opens his mouth, all I can hear is him singing. 



#119 jonpollak

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:11

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism

 

:up:

Jp



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#120 PretentiousBread

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:23

I thought Brundle sold out ages ago, I guess now at least it's official.



#121 pingu666

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:02

how's the coolaid brundle  :drunk:

 

I agree with jv



#122 SenorSjon

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:48

Double Points is one of those things that has near unanimous support. The pet grip of the week on the internet rarely does.

 You got to be trolling here. Only BE with his Death Grip on the teams like it. Fans, pundits and most drivers hate it. Or I'm misunderstanding things... I'm not a native English speaker.



#123 Lazy

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:16

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism

Patriotism is blind devotion to an abstract authoritarian control construct, it is not a high concept.



#124 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:36

 Fans, pundits and most drivers hate it.

 

We don't yet know for sure. Unfortunately (or perhaps not) for us here, those actively posting and reading internet sites and forums - even during the winter season - are only a small portion of the F1 TV audience.

 

The powers-that-be have stated, in so far as we can trust them, that there was a rather significant drop in viewers after Vettel won the title. Even postponing that drop for one race could potentially make a difference of millions of dollars.

 

However, I do think that F1 ignores people like those gathered here at its own peril. TV ratings are already in decline. There's no reason F1 couldn't collapse in on itself like other series have in the past.



#125 Murl

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:13

The formula is not as basic as you make it out to be, as for one it involves statistical variance.  The more precision you have in manufacturing, the more predictable the reliability of the part is going to be.  With ideal precision, and no other source of variation, you can theoretically have perfect reliability at the optimal level of performance, and guaranteed failure at just a nudge over the optimal level of performance.  In that case, there is no trade-off, you'd be an idiot to run the part at anything other than optimal performance.

 

 

Pretty sure the point here was that F1 has become insanely reliable as part of the cost cutting drive. 5 Weekend gearboxes or whatever the current flavour is. There is no bleeding edge. Push any physical system hard enough and you will find reliability problems. The problem with F1 is that they are not RACING.



#126 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:20

Pretty sure the point here was that F1 has become insanely reliable as part of the cost cutting drive. 5 Weekend gearboxes or whatever the current flavour is. There is no bleeding edge. Push any physical system hard enough and you will find reliability problems. The problem with F1 is that they are not RACING.

And the point I was making is that pushing your equipment hard makes less and less sense the better you are at precisely manufacturing it.  The better you make it, the more you need to push it at exactly the pace it's designed for.


Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 16 February 2014 - 09:20.


#127 eronrules

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:32

so .... JV speaks his mind about the current state of F1 like some of the doom-mongering fans who resent changes and fears experiment to the so called 'pure racing' (whatever that is) and is applauded.  :confused:

 

MBrundle speaks his mind about a driver who's been fortunate to win a WDC in a dominant team with the best car and raises a valid question regarding the motif of JV other than creating sensationalist quote and gets slated.  :rolleyes:

 

something is wrong with the 'Fans of the sport' ATM along with the sport itself.  :smoking:



#128 motorhead

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:43

All I can say is that modern Jacques Vlleneuve is a fake show...



#129 farsailor

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:51

 

 

MBrundle speaks his mind about a driver who's been fortunate to win a WDC in a dominant team with the best car and raises a valid question regarding the motif of JV other than creating sensationalist quote and gets slated.  :rolleyes:

 

 

And you did watch F1 back then? JV was considered one of the top 3 if not 2 drivers in f1 right up til say 2002-2003, finished 7th in the championship in 2001 & 2002 in a crap car. That's about as high as Brundle ever finished a season in F1.



#130 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:12

so .... JV speaks his mind about the current state of F1 like some of the doom-mongering fans who resent changes and fears experiment to the so called 'pure racing' (whatever that is) and is applauded.  :confused:

 

MBrundle speaks his mind about a driver who's been fortunate to win a WDC in a dominant team with the best car and raises a valid question regarding the motif of JV other than creating sensationalist quote and gets slated.  :rolleyes:

 

Jacques Villeneuve is his own man. Martin Brundle works for a company that invested millions of pounds for the right to broadcast F1 races.

 

I know it's popular to brush off criticism of the powers that be by saying people 'resent changes and fears experiment'. It's a habit not confined to F1. But in this case people have given detailed and well argued explanations for their disagreements with certain and specific changes in either the technical or sporting regulations. That doesn't mean they are right, but to pile all that on one heap and ascribe any criticism to some sort of inflexible traditionalism is, shall we say, not very charitable.



#131 Murl

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:25

And the point I was making is that pushing your equipment hard makes less and less sense the better you are at precisely manufacturing it.  The better you make it, the more you need to push it at exactly the pace it's designed for.

 

I take your point that manufacturing/materials science has improved significantly over time. 

 

I'm no engineer, so it is hard to know the state of play or be familiar with research papers etc.

 

By how much, since what year? For example, when Kimi struggled to get his first win with numerous engine failures, was that era the "bad old days"?

 

Take away the comfort of rev limits and homologated engine designs and you might be surprised just how far materials science and quality control has yet to go.
 



#132 AlexanderF1

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:43

jv says that f1 is fake. if he feels that strongly about it why doesnt he phone up jean todt or bernie to sort it out instead of getting publicity. All these former drivers who say these things can say what they like but it wont change the way f1 currently is,instead it just starts a debate



#133 chunder27

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:44

Brundle has to be a bit careful here

 

First he sticks up for Vettel and tells people to stop booing, withotu really understanding that people arent really booing Seb, they are booing the lack of show and the dominance of one team, how are they supposed to elt their feelings known.

And now, on a million a year retainer for doing chuff all but talk to his mates, he has a pop at a bloke for earning money in F1 when he did more in those years than Brundle ever achieved!  Won races and a championship.

Careful Martin, you eitehr need to go and race something and get out of the bubble or shut up



#134 pRy

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:23

He was dead-on about one thing, a lot of the 'tactical' aspects of driving are now electronic. This will come as a surprise to most of you, but 'flat out' racing was a relatively recent invention. You had to conserve tires/cars/fuel a lot of the time. But most of it was down to the driver to figure out. 

 

Then: Feel, experience

Now: Steering wheel display

 

That's why I think they should remove pit to car radio except to request pit stops and to alert drivers to safety issues. 



#135 P123

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:30

Basically Brundle is saying if you earn a ton from F1 then be a good nodding donkey. That is afterall the default behaviour from the F1 paddock whenever a Bernie dollar is waved under their noses. JV is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else. Instead of sneering at him for having an opinion, why not counter it with a robust defence of how wonderful DRS and double points races are?

#136 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:49

 You got to be trolling here. Only BE with his Death Grip on the teams like it. Fans, pundits and most drivers hate it. Or I'm misunderstanding things... I'm not a native English speaker.

 

Sorry, I meant opposition. There's near unanimous support *against* double points.



#137 sennafan24

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 13:26

so .... JV speaks his mind about the current state of F1 like some of the doom-mongering fans who resent changes and fears experiment to the so called 'pure racing' (whatever that is) and is applauded.  :confused:

 

MBrundle speaks his mind about a driver who's been fortunate to win a WDC in a dominant team with the best car and raises a valid question regarding the motif of JV other than creating sensationalist quote and gets slated.  :rolleyes:

 

something is wrong with the 'Fans of the sport' ATM along with the sport itself.  :smoking:

Your assumption of "doom mongering fans" does not paint the full picture. Yes, F1 has to evolve, but the introduction of double points is something that is not hated by just fans, the majority of drivers dislike it as well. Casual fans I have talked to have also said what a stupid idea it is.

 

There is a difference between "experimenting" and pissing off your audience and drivers, which they have done with the double points rule. Unless they are "experimenting" on how many people they can piss off with one rule change.

 

J.V just stated his opinion, which he is entitled to do, like I underlined above, Brundle's presumption that J.V's comments can provide nothing positive is false. Maybe J.V has good intentions and thinks the drivers and current audience are getting a raw deal. P123 sums it all up very well above


Edited by sennafan24, 16 February 2014 - 13:27.


#138 sennafan24

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 13:34

Sorry, I meant opposition. There's near unanimous support *against* double points.

I was going to inquire myself about you posting that. Thought you might have been losing it there for a second  ;) , your posts usually contribute common sense to the the forum.


Edited by sennafan24, 16 February 2014 - 13:34.


#139 Gorma

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:01

Jacque Villeneuve is full shit as always. Memories grow sweeter with time and past seasons seem better than the more current ones. Every negative aspect of past seasons are forgotten and positive aspects are exaggerated. I'm not saying that things could not be better or that there isn't anything wrong. All I'm saying is that thing aren't that bad.



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#140 sennafan24

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:13

Jacque Villeneuve is full shit as always. Memories grow sweeter with time and past seasons seem better than the more current ones. Every negative aspect of past seasons are forgotten and positive aspects are exaggerated. I'm not saying that things could not be better or that there isn't anything wrong. All I'm saying is that thing aren't that bad.

Yeah, I agree things "are not so bad", I also agree nostalgia comes into play greatly, and it can distort opinions. But I think J.V still is justified in speaking out against things he does not think are right for the sport.

 

Just because things were not ideal in the past, does not mean we should not seek them to be ideal in the present. 



#141 Gorma

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 15:11

Yeah, I agree things "are not so bad", I also agree nostalgia comes into play greatly, and it can distort opinions. But I think J.V still is justified in speaking out against things he does not think are right for the sport.

 

Just because things were not ideal in the past, does not mean we should not seek them to be ideal in the present. 

I agree with you. I just hate threads like this and "Where did it all go wrong" because the basic assumption is that F1 at the moment is worse than it has ever been. It all just stems from the fact that "my guy isn't winning" which causes fans to start nitpicking every single little detail that is wrong with F1 at the moment. If we had had four different champions in the past four years the mood would be different. Granted we would still have the same things wrong, but people would not mind so much. It's just how the human mindset works. If you are depressed everything seems like crap and you are more pessimistic. If you are happy then everything seems better and you are more optimistic. Ferrari hasn't won a championship in years and tifosi are screaming for unlimited testing, but had Ferrari won four years in a row they wouldn't care less. Even Montezemolo would be saying how Ferrari does not need testing to build great cars and how they have the greatest wind tunnel and simulator.

 

I am all for making things better and removing gimmicks like the double points, DRS and the KERS button. I think the move to more torque and less aero is a good thing. 



#142 olliek88

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 15:49

Its not a problem, it's a clumsy fix. But it does *something*. Which is far more than you'll get out of the teams or the FIA. They went down the aerodynamic rabbit hole, this is what they end up with. 

 

DRS is one of the few good moves they make. Sure some blowhards don't like it but they're an impossibly inconsequential minority.

 

For once, i disagree with Ross! :p 

 

DRS might have helped to improve overtaking but for me its destroyed the "will he, won't he" tension that builds before an overtake. Now there's a sense of inevitability when a faster car approaches another you know its done and dusted and usually with little fuss. F1 wasn't perfect pre DRS but i'd rather have the original problem than the side affects created by the attempted medication. 

 

I appreciate its just personal opinion but when DRS doesn't work whats next? How far do you take it, if the guy infront stays ahead for x number of laps do the FIA reduce his power via the ECU or something. That might sound ridiculous but its the way F1 is slowly going. Hell, they'll even hand out double point for the final races ne..... ah.

 

I still love F1 and i'll put up with the increasing number of problems its has because the pros still out way the cons for me, at least for now. What i'm trying to say is JV has a point and Martin Brundle's tweet had a touch of an ostrich with its head in the sand about it, ignoring the fact the product he promotes has a fair few imperfections about it.



#143 chunder27

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 16:19

Some claptrap on here

 

Disdain for current F1 is nothing at all to do with my guy not winning, I dont have a 'guy' and never have!  What a load of old rubbish

 

It is because the racing is dull, one car dominates, which we can all admire but lets face it it makes it dull as dishwater when  car is designed to be just as quick without the aids designed to improve overtaking as it it without them, so much so that they regularly fail and the car still runs and hides.

 

Ever wondered why thatc ar is slow on teh straight, ever wondered why pole is so vital for Vettel?  Coz the KERS system is only ballast and an element of it failing was desigend into the package, hence he HAD to be there or he would find it very tough to get through, hence the 2 second lead every first lap.

 

This is clever engineering, nothing more. Hence the booing, the comment and the reaction from bernie as he obviosuly saw a drop in viewing figures and a reason to do something about it.

 

There is no action on its own in F1 from teh FIA or Bernie, it is always reaction.



#144 Paco

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 16:26

jv says that f1 is fake. if he feels that strongly about it why doesnt he phone up jean todt or bernie to sort it out instead of getting publicity. All these former drivers who say these things can say what they like but it wont change the way f1 currently is,instead it just starts a debate

 

Seriously.. he was asked and he answered.  It's not as if he posted something like this on Twitter or his website just for the sake of making a comment.  He was interviewed and most likely had no idea which direction the interviewer was going to take.. whether it was about his new ride, about matters of F1 etc.



#145 Paco

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 16:38

Domination has always been a part of F1.. but I feel fans were more accepting of in the past because (even during some of MS-Ferrari era) because every driver out there was maxing out each lap to try and close the gap.  Now, once a driver opens up a lead.. you HAVE ZERO chance since you can't push due to weak tires.  So where you would try and cook a set of tires,really work the track.. or hope the driver ahead would go off and ruin his race.. now, that driver will just take a stroll across the grass and get back on track.. the driver ahead of you will almost certainly not break down so no reason to think you can make a difference.. risk in pit mistake sooooo low now that refuelding doesn't mix things up (like when refueling rigs failed, or mechanic couldn't get fuel in or didn't put in enough..)..

 

Basically.. once a driver breaks free of the pack.. everyone else has ZERO chance.. has ZERO ways to hope they can close the gap so they just lap conservatively as to minimize the damage vs. making a real difference.

 

Also.. paying points 7-10... those drivers will just accept a 7, 8th position now vs. really giving it to try and get to 6th..    The driver in 6th was also trying way way harder as he knew everyone close behind was going to take risks to get his position so he was way way more anxious.. pushing to make a gap.  Now. he knows 7th isn't going to do anything serious and risk there points for 6th as it's only 1 point more whereas they could lose 4...  playing the odds.. 7 and 8 make no sense to take a chance at moving up the grid during the race as they risk sooo..   3 vs. 4 is hardly a reason to make pass... where 0 vs. 1 is 100% a reason to make a pass.. even if it goes bad..



#146 johnmhinds

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 16:50

Domination has always been a part of F1.. but I feel fans were more accepting of in the past because (even during some of MS-Ferrari era) because every driver out there was maxing out each lap to try and close the gap.  Now, once a driver opens up a lead.. you HAVE ZERO chance since you can't push due to weak tires.  So where you would try and cook a set of tires,really work the track.. or hope the driver ahead would go off and ruin his race.. now, that driver will just take a stroll across the grass and get back on track.. the driver ahead of you will almost certainly not break down so no reason to think you can make a difference.. risk in pit mistake sooooo low now that refuelding doesn't mix things up (like when refueling rigs failed, or mechanic couldn't get fuel in or didn't put in enough..)..

 

 

Can I have some of those rose tinted glasses?

 

Drivers would settle for second all the time during Schumacher's dominating years, people very rarely pushed to make up his 1min+ leads because they knew his car was so fast that he was taking it easy for most of the race, that's why his car was so reliable throughout that period.

 

it's no different to Vettel's domination these days, only now we have too many busy bodies trying to rewrite the rules to try to "fix" the sport.

 

They didn't do anything drastic to the rules to make Schumachers domination end, why do they think they need to mess with everything now to end Vettel's winning streak.

 

If they'd left everything alone the Red Bull domination would have naturally played itself out, but what we have now is a string of new rules that will only help the bigger teams dominate.


Edited by johnmhinds, 16 February 2014 - 16:57.


#147 sennafan24

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:31

 

 

It is because the racing is dull, one car dominates, which we can all admire but lets face it it makes it dull as dishwater when  car is designed to be just as quick without the aids designed to improve overtaking as it it without them, so much so that they regularly fail and the car still runs and hides.

 

 

Domination lacks drama, I would agree with that. But you will never find a season with as much drama as 2012, regardless of who won. 2010 was exciting also, 

 

I enjoy things from the past more. I like how the cars looked more in the early 1990's, no driver has had the charisma and impact of Ayrton Senna in my opinion, and there is more emphasis on machinery rather than man than I would ideally like. But present F1, is nowhere near as bad as some make out.

 

Brazil 2012 was the height of TV drama in my opinion, you could not script a drama better than that, regardless of who you were supporting. F1 modern day can still provide some great moments.



#148 George Costanza

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:32

2010 was "boring" compared to 2012, IMO.



#149 sennafan24

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:44

2010 was "boring" compared to 2012, IMO.

2012 was an all round great season. 2010 was just decent, so I know what you mean.

 

My point is that changes could benefit F1 presently. But, F1 under its previous regulations of 2009-2013, was no lame duck in terms of entertainment. As a TV viewer, F1 was critically acclaimed from fans in 2009,2010 and 2012 due to close WDC battles.

 

J.V points are still valid though. Improvements can be made in the future. The abolishment of the double points system would be something that 95% of fans, critics and drivers would be in favor of.


Edited by sennafan24, 16 February 2014 - 17:45.


#150 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:46

I don't know why 2010 is this 'ultimate race' when we've had better title deciders, even limiting it to races in Brazil.


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 16 February 2014 - 17:46.