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Williams a dark horse?


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#1 rmpugh

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:27

The latest Autosport mag is tipping Williams as a dark horse due to their tech signings plus having the best cooling. Can Pat Symmonds plus Martini cash turn Williams back into winners? Despite being a Ferrari/Alonso fan, I would love Williams to turn it around, and especially see Massa finally take the WDC that he deserves.

 

Go Williams, if Ferrari can't win, Williams would be the next best thing, (as long as it is with Massa).

 



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#2 HeadFirst

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:45

Love to see Williams competitive this year, but not with Massa.



#3 Kingshark

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:03

William's pendulum swing in the last four years;

 

2010 - :up:

2011 -  :(

2012 - :D

2013 - :cry:

 

2014 -  :clap:



#4 Lord Snooty

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:19

William's pendulum swing in the last four years;

2010 - :up:
2011 - :(
2012 - :D
2013 - :cry:

2014 - :clap:


I'm with you for 2014....

#5 Dan333SP

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:54

I certainly hope so because I'd love to see Felipe get his first win in years, but I'm not holding my breath until I see them making it to Q3 and challenging for the first two rows. I remember having the same hopes after strong tests for Arrows and Prost over a decade ago, and they never made it out of the lower midfield.

#6 CoolBreeze

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:38

I don't buy it. Williams have been dark horses for years. But they get the wrong drivers, and nothing gets right with them. Everyone was happy when they were re=powered by Renault. Nothing special happened. Probably nothing special will happen this season too. I hope i'm wrong though. 



#7 Mat13

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:44

I'd love to see them competitive, won't happen with Massa though. Bottas?

#8 Andrew Hope

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:48

Eh. I like the team and I like both of their drivers but I'd rather see Force India and Sauber contending for podiums, Marussia and Caterhamn contending for points, etc. Everyone wants Williams to return to their glory days. I'd rather see new glory days for teams that have never had success than what would ultimately be another win drop in their ocean of victories. It would be great to see, but not the greatest thing that could be seen.



#9 SPBHM

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:54

I don't buy it. Williams have been dark horses for years. But they get the wrong drivers, and nothing gets right with them. Everyone was happy when they were re=powered by Renault. Nothing special happened. Probably nothing special will happen this season too. I hope i'm wrong though. 

 

well, they won a race when they moved to Renault, that's quite special since it was their first since 2004?

also the car had more potential over that year, but Bruno was no quite that good and Maldonado couldn't stop making mistakes... but yes... 2013 was a disaster with no engine excuses, so I'm not sure what to expect, if the car is good and well setup I think Massa can do alt least some very fast qualifying laps, same for Bottas (I don't think they are outstanding racers like Alonso, Raikkonen and a few others, but both are probably quite good at single fast lap), so I think the driver pairing is good enough to have an idea about the quality of the car!


Edited by SPBHM, 16 February 2014 - 05:55.


#10 boldhakka

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:55

They would have forgotten how to win. They may do an Enstone and grab a few good results but will not have everything come together to win regularly or sustain a good campaign. It will be very nice to see if they do, though. 



#11 Nustang70

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:23

I'd be happy just to see them as podium contenders.  



#12 Timstr11

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:08

The latest Autosport mag is tipping Williams as a dark horse due to their tech signings plus having the best cooling. Can Pat Symmonds plus Martini cash turn Williams back into winners? Despite being a Ferrari/Alonso fan, I would love Williams to turn it around, and especially see Massa finally take the WDC that he deserves.

 

Go Williams, if Ferrari can't win, Williams would be the next best thing, (as long as it is with Massa).

 

Scarbs recently did an interview with Symonds: http://digital.motor...07b356e&pnum=12

 

Having read it, I would not see Williams as a dark horse.



#13 LoudHoward

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:23

This line:

 

Get the right collection of people in place, and the magic flows. Just look at Williams.

 

Geesh, we've had one fricken test.

 

I have nothing against Williams, but the article is almost making me hope they have a season worse than last years.



#14 dweller23

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:52

I'm a long time supporter of Williams, but it's the same thing every year - "this year Williams will be the dark horse".

 

They had a great car in 2009 and 2012 and failed to capitalize on that (bar that one victory in Spain for Maldonado... he lost about 3 or 4 other podium finishes and Bruno Senna was Bruno Senna). Let's be honest, as much as I'd love them to win I will hate seeing them throwing away their potential in typical Williams style which we keep seeing ever since 1995.



#15 OSX

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:54

 

Scarbs recently did an interview with Symonds: http://digital.motor...07b356e&pnum=12

 

Having read it, I would not see Williams as a dark horse.

Having also read it, I would say Symonds agrees with you 100%. That said I'd love to see Williams bounce back to the front where they belong.



#16 Disgrace

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:08

Already beaten to it - "Williams will be the dark horse" is the new "this year will be my year".



#17 eronrules

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:20

wasn't LotusF1 supposed to be the eternal 'Dark horse' of F1   ;)

 

also, seeing william's track records since being ditched by a major manufacturer (i.e BMW), we also need to be clear about which field they are a 'dark horse' of

 

if we judge by last year's results, then yes, they are certainly a dark horse in the middle field along with STR, Sauber and SFI. but i wouldn't put them in the top 5s unless both ferrari and renault engines are duds.  



#18 BullHead

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:25

They'll be up there this year I reckon, subject to how further testing goes. Bottas and Massa should be a good pairing.

Biggest single change - Mercedes engine, just when Mercs are now the thing to have. Good move.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:00

This year is a great opportunity to get back to the sharp end of the grid where they belong. They haven't forgotten how to win as Spain 2012 proved. Give the team a sniff of victory and they'll go for it. If the car is a gem, then they'll do well.



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#20 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:10

I'd love to see them competitive, won't happen with Massa though. Bottas?

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.



#21 apoka

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:21

William's pendulum swing in the last four years;

 

2010 - :up:

2011 -  :(

2012 - :D

2013 - :cry:

 

2014 -  :clap:

 

This is how I saw it:

 

2010 -  :(

2011 -  :cry:

2012 -  :(

2013 -  :cry:

 

This year a lot can happen, although I doubt that they'll be able to seriously fight for WDC.



#22 sock22

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:26

While I am keen to see Williams do well, I am a bit concerned about the hype. It seems that anything lower than fourth in the WCC will be a disappointment to some when in reality, sixth in the WCC would be a positive step for the team. So far, we've had some good signs but we know nothing yet about performance. It's too early to start labelling anyone a dark horse, especially when Red Bull and Lotus are completely unproven.



#23 dau

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:29

Don't we have this thread every year? Stop beating this dead dark horse.



#24 Anderis

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:39

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.

I don't see from where such a high level of confidence about this is coming.



#25 joora

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:41

I would be really happy if they manage to get in the top 10 regularily, with an occasional surprise podium. Anything can happen in the first few races tho, I get the feeling that they want to make their car reliable, so maybe that pays dividends in the end. As for the WCC or WDC contender, highly doubt it, maybe in 2015 if the team glues together properly over this season.

 

As for drivers, I would like to see a more aggressive Bottass this year, last year he seemed kind of tame, but maybe he wanted to do his rookie season without major mistakes.



#26 Longtimefan

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:54

**Post edited**

 

Lets just say Williams are not one of my favourite teams.


Edited by Longtimefan, 17 February 2014 - 13:34.


#27 Massa_f1

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:05

Love to see Williams competitive this year, but not with Massa.

 

 

Typical anti Massa response. I would love to see him up the front of the field just to see peoples reactions on here alone.



#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:08

-------

 

Edit: Retracted after Longtimefan retracted his statement.


Edited by PayasYouRace, 17 February 2014 - 13:52.


#29 sneaker91

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:08

I used to like em but they lost their way a long time ago and I would be amazed if they get a win.

 

I do hope they are competitive though.

 

Head was too old school and couldnt adapt/plan for the future. Frank failed to act on the engineering drain. Lost a lot of respect for Williams during their BMW years. They pissed away a monster motor when BMW produced the goods.



#30 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:13

I just thing that Williams is on the downward trend that we saw Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell go down on a path to bankruptcy or being bought out.

#31 Spillage

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:19

I'd like to see them do well, but I just don't think they have the drivers to win a WDC unless Bottas develops quickly and Massa can rekindle his 2008-level form. Neither seems likely to me so while they might nick a win I can't see them taking a title even if they build a consistently front-running car. Unless they have a Brawn 2009 style season and start the season dominantly, which of course is possible, however unlikely.



#32 sopa

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:21

I don't buy it. Williams have been dark horses for years. But they get the wrong drivers, and nothing gets right with them. Everyone was happy when they were re=powered by Renault. Nothing special happened. Probably nothing special will happen this season too. I hope i'm wrong though. 

 

I agree. Probably it has something to do with people having nostalgic and sympathetic feelings, which often creates overinflated Williams' rankings in predictions, especially after a few impressive testing outings. The reality is that ever since 2004 or 2005 we have had almost a decade of data that even if Williams has better or worse days, they are usually somewhere in midfield. A couple of individual results may have been stunning, like pole in Brazil in 2010 or Maldonado's win, but it doesn't change the overall picture.

 

However, how do we define "special". I think Williams may be capable of challenging for 6th or 7th in the constructors. Considering recent seasons this sounds quite special by their standards. Championship challenges should be forgotten though.


Edited by sopa, 16 February 2014 - 12:24.


#33 Tapz63

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:59

I used to have a lot of respect for Sir Frank and his team, sadly that totally vanished one day for reasons I cannot mention on here without attracting attention from the mods, so since then I've had the pleasure of seeing them plummet down the grid, I certainly dont wish any harm on their drivers but if the team never score another point, that would suit me fine.

Sorry, just being honest


Why would you attract attention from the mods for posting?

#34 JHSingo

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 13:11

and especially see Massa finally take the WDC that he deserves.

 

 

"Deserves"? There is no such thing. You earn a WDC, not deserve it.

 

And anyway, it'll be Bottas leading the way for Williams.



#35 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 13:41

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.

 

LOL



#36 noikeee

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:06

It's not impossible they could climb up to 4th/5th/6th best team if the Mercedes engines are the best and Renault struggles to come back after the first test disaster, but I don't think they have a hope in hell of beating or hassling Mercedes and McLaren, and surely at least Ferrari or Red Bull or someone else will outperform them too. Add their usually slow-ish car development, and the struggling teams coming back at a quicker pace as the year goes on, plus their usual tendency to piss away good cars by whatever reasons, and that's really best case scenario for them: early season podium contention then progressively fizzling away.

 

They can beat Force India on the same engine though, they might have a more exciting pair of drivers and better recent history but it's not that big a leap forward to make it sound impossible. Same for Toro Rosso, Sauber, Lotus, these are beatable targets if Williams have a better engine than all of them.



#37 Mat13

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:26

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.


I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Tenner? ;)

#38 kraduk

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:27

Why would you attract attention from the mods for posting?

 

It must be bad but unprovable  and therefore liabilious



#39 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 14:51

I don't see from where such a high level of confidence about this is coming.

His career shows the same pattern as Barrichello's. Rubens was very strong in his first year at Williams, This change of scenery for Massa will revitalize him as well. There are already early signs from the tests in Jerez

 

 

LOL

We'll talk again around november. Bottas hasn't shown anything yet to make me believe he can beat Massa.

 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Tenner?  ;)

Sure thing, easy money then  ;)


Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 16 February 2014 - 14:55.


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#40 George Costanza

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 16:33

I'm a long time supporter of Williams, but it's the same thing every year - "this year Williams will be the dark horse".

 

They had a great car in 2009 and 2012 and failed to capitalize on that (bar that one victory in Spain for Maldonado... he lost about 3 or 4 other podium finishes and Bruno Senna was Bruno Senna). Let's be honest, as much as I'd love them to win I will hate seeing them throwing away their potential in typical Williams style which we keep seeing ever since 1995.

 

1995-1996-1997? The drivers did not perform their best; the cars were great. and they were up aganist Michael Schumacher in his prime. What happened after '97, is different due to losing Adrian Newey. 2001-2004 waa very good, IMO. Of course, Sam Michael didn't truly flourish as a TD.

 

And let's face it, it all went "wrong" when Ayrton died and by that I mean, Ayrton likely would have change the entire team going forward.


Edited by George Costanza, 16 February 2014 - 17:31.


#41 HoldenRT

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:05

Don't get your hopes up but it'd be nice to see them up the order.



#42 ATM

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 17:46

Well, they can't get much worse anyway- I don't see Caterham or Marussia making the grand leap to the midfield this year either, and since these are the only teams Williams has beaten in 2013...you know what they say, when you've hit rock bottom, the only way is up. 



#43 Clatter

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:17

The latest Autosport mag is tipping Williams as a dark horse due to their tech signings plus having the best cooling. Can Pat Symmonds plus Martini cash turn Williams back into winners? Despite being a Ferrari/Alonso fan, I would love Williams to turn it around, and especially see Massa finally take the WDC that he deserves.

 

Go Williams, if Ferrari can't win, Williams would be the next best thing, (as long as it is with Massa).

How does anyone know this.?



#44 F1ultimate

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:22

So, you are telling me that a team that only scored 5 points last season, will charge the front runners this year?

 

 

At best, Williams should just aim to establish themselves as a middle field team that consistently scores points. Even if they were lucky to have a good start this year and mix with the top guys, they don't have the budget to win the development race. I wouldn't want them to replicate Lotus' stint of over-spending money the team doesn't have, at the expense of almost not making the grid the following year.



#45 MikeV1987

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:35

As much as i'd like to see Bottas get some great results, I don't think Williams will move up past the midfield. I do think Bottas will give Massa a proper thrashing though.



#46 Anderis

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:36

I just thing that Williams is on the downward trend that we saw Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell go down on a path to bankruptcy or being bought out.

I'm absolutely sure Williams will not go bankrupt or bought out in the next 10 years. They already have budget quite a lot of bigger than teams like Sauber, Force India, Toro Rosso and that without going into the slightest debt. They've secured quite a lot of sponsorship deals recently, they have a special payment from FOM, their activity outside F1 is growing each year. so from financial point of view, they're completely secure. They'll not go bankrupt and it's no point of selling the team as well. Maybe they don't have a possibility to gather a championship-winning budget, but they have an upper-midfield budget gathered without the slightest problem. People like these kind of comparisons but each team is different story and there is absolutely nothing to suggest Williams will disappear from F1 unless we see some fundamental changes in F1.

 

About Williams being seen as a dark horse- I have to agree with many here. Before every single season many people predict them as a team to make the biggest problems, but it rarely happened. And even if they came with an exceptionally good car (2009 and 2012), they failed to capitalise on this and secure a good result in WCC and repeat their performance a year later. It requires to be naive to believe they'll seriously challenge the frontrunners now.

 

On the other hand, with their budget and resources, I'm sure Williams will start finishing within top6 in WCC on a regular basis soon. They have to. They're clearly stronger than Sauber or Force India commercial-wise, including facilities and technical possibilities. They can afford to outbid some engineers from other teams (for this year alone they've brought Symonds, Andreassen, Nelson, Wheater, Whitehead, Wilson and probably Smedley, among others, they've undoubtedly gained more engineering strength from other teams than lost to them), so each time they underperform big time, they'll be making changes and once they'll get it right.

Anything higher than 6th will be a big success (unless Lotus is eliminated from being competitive due to financial reasons anytime soon), but anything lower than 6th will be a disappointment and will not reflect team's potential. They know it in Grove so they'll react to ensure the team finishes in top6 in WCC on a regular basis, because they have everything to make it happen.



#47 sopa

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:40

 

On the other hand, with their budget and resources, I'm sure Williams will start finishing within top6 in WCC on a regular basis soon. They have to. They're clearly stronger than Sauber or Force India commercial-wise, including facilities and technical possibilities. 

 

Just out of interest. If Williams has enough strength to finish in top6 and have better 'potential' than other midfield teams, why have they been 8th or 9th in the last three years and actually lost to those midfield teams? What should be different now? Facilities are still the same as the last three years? I think Sauber and Force India are also pretty similar to what they have been in recent years.



#48 OSX

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:42

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.

I will be well and truly surprised if the post-accident Massa manages to beat Bottas on points this year, or any other year they'll be sharing equal machinery.



#49 MikeV1987

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:44

Seriously? Massa will comprehensively beat Bottas this year, no problem.

Massa struggled when his Ferrari's we're difficult to drive, can't see it being any different with the new regs this season.



#50 RuleyRamundo

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 18:55

I hope. In reality I think they will do the norm lately, not very well apart from Spain 2012.