89 replies to this topic

[KiloWatt]

This thread is obviously premature by around 10 years or so, but I was wondering the other day what will come after the current V6s?

 

I reckon this will depend a whole lot on what the automotive industry does by that time, as the tendancy has been to make it more attractive and relevant for them to compete.

 

An absolute fact is that the hybrid technology will feature even more prominently.  I'd hazard a guess and say 50MJ per lap and a 250 kW discharge rate (we went from 66kW to 120kW in 5 years, bear in mind).  Perhaps constant use throughout a lap?  It may sound absurd, but we're talking of 10 years down the line here - think how fast computer systems have developed in that time.

 

I think there can be little doubt that reciprocating IC engines will play even less a part.  I4s may be very conservative, seeing as we were near as damn to adopting them this time around.  But how much lower can you go without loosing credibility?  Wankels?  May as well go kitten clubbing then.

 

Perhaps something more extreme than that and I think we must ask what the auto industry will be up to by then?  Fuell cells?  Hydrogen (doubt it).  Turbines would be cool, but I doubt it.

 

Any ideas?

Edited by KiloWatt, 24 February 2014 - 10:51.

[Tapz63]

Let me just dwell on it, for say 6-9 years. Seriously it's impossible to know if F1 will even be around still. But if I had to guess I'd say full electric with energy recovery systems all over. And maybe they will use some new material that will be lighter and stronger, I think its carbon nanotubes or something like that that is supposed to be the next big thing.

[rhukkas]

I am pretty sure we'll see this headline

 

"Why electric cars sounds better than you'd think"

Edited by rhukkas, 24 February 2014 - 11:00.

[Lazy]

I am pretty sure we'll see this headline

 

"Why electric cars sounds better than you'd think"

It would probably be right too.

[Lazy]

I'm guessing/hoping they will gradually reduce the boost and free up the ERS, maybe after a while they will reduce engine size or use a V4.

[KiloWatt]

Let me just dwell on it, for say 6-9 years. Seriously it's impossible to know if F1 will even be around still. But if I had to guess I'd say full electric with energy recovery systems all over. And maybe they will use some new material that will be lighter and stronger, I think its carbon nanotubes or something like that that is supposed to be the next big thing.

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying about full electric and thought about that myself.  But isn't that what Formula E is for?

[noikeee]

I suspect engines will continue to get "greener". I imagine the electrical part will start to outpower the conventional petrol part, or approach it or something. F1 will make lots of PR noises gloating about how green it is.

 

Meanwhile they'll burn 100 tons of petrol to light up the evening GPs of Kazakhstan, Bangladesh and South Sudan.

[krapmeister]

...Meanwhile they'll burn 100 tons of petrol to light up the evening GPs of Kazakhstan, Bangladesh and South Sudan.

Not to mention the fuel used to fly the whole circus to those places so they can race in front of empty grandstands and have it all beamed back to Europe where the fans can watch it on tv...

[Lazy]

 

I suspect engines will continue to get "greener". I imagine the electrical part will start to outpower the conventional petrol part, or approach it or something. F1 will make lots of PR noises gloating about how green it is.

 

Meanwhile they'll burn 100 tons of petrol to light up the evening GPs of Kazakhstan, Bangladesh and South Sudan.

 

It's never been about making F1 use less fuel, it's a drop in the ocean compared to global consumption anyway. The idea is to promote/develop the technology,

 

I would have thought that was pretty obvious tbh.

[noikeee]

Not to mention the fuel used to fly the whole circus to those places so they can race in front of empty grandstands and have it all beamed back to Europe where the fans can watch it on tv...

That, too.

 

To clarify, I don't think "greener" tech is necessarily bad. It doesn't mix terribly well with the image of F1, but F1 does need to remain at the cutting edge of technology and if this is the way engine tech is going then F1 benefits from following it - providing it doesn't harm the racing. Which I don't think the current new generation of engines will, in the slightest.

 

The hipocrisy of gloating about being green whilst inventing new ways of wasting massive resources is amusing, though.

[maverick69]

Probably something like 600cc turbo v-twins running on sustainably sourced "fair trade" methanol...... with an absolute orgy of energy recovery and supplementary propulsion systems.

[TheNewStig]

Free cc,hp,ers,kers,rpm and so on.
But max fuel of maybe 80 liter a race?GP2 50 liter and GP3 30?
Maybe we see a formula 80 liter,50 liter and 30 liter instead of F1,gp2 and gp3?
I hope so.

[Longtimefan]

2020 - electric cars
2025 - rubber band powered cars
2030 - wind up cars

[Jon83]

It would probably be right too.

 

Not a chance.

 

 

 

I think Noikee is probably right in his / her post.

 

 

[docronzo]

Afew years ago I was playing Grand Prix 3 on my PC. I replaced the soundfile for the Ferrari engine with sound of me burping. I had to laugh so badly that my sides were aching. I can imagine that in future the television user can adjust the sound of the completely electrical powered cars as he likes. At the track the cars will be barely audible. They will transmit the data for the engine sound and gps will calculate the pitch for the Doppler effect in relation to the camera position. This way the hardcore fan can listen to the great V12 engines of the 60s while his phony girlfriend choses the friendly dolphine tune.

[handel]

Maybe Formula E & Formula 1 will intersect at some point and then completely crossover, F1 being purely electric and Formula C being established where all the 'antique' V6 Turbos + ERS Race the even older V8 2.4l Aero Monsters & frankly ancient V12/V10 power-mad but Aero limited cars race each other.

 

*C = Combustion 

Edited by handel, 24 February 2014 - 12:44.

[Jackmancer]

I think electric engines will happen earlier than 10 years. Could be here in 5 years. 

[0Fritz]

2020 - electric cars
2025 - rubber band powered cars
2030 - wind up cars

 

2040 - slot cars

[SPBHM]

I think electric engines will happen earlier than 10 years. Could be here in 5 years. 

 

I think it's unrealistic, the amount of power they would have to store in batteries to run a full race must be insane...

energy from braking is almost nothing, they would need massive batteries, or a way to transfer electricity while running!? or... a generator, which is not a pure electric car I think,

 

 

but I think it would make sense in 5 years or more to increase the power from the electric side, and maybe go with even smaller internal combustion engines, kind of like now, but with electric bigger, internal combustion engines smaller...

Edited by SPBHM, 24 February 2014 - 13:05.

[ollebompa]

I think allready next year there will be further changes as the cars will be too fast for what the FIA intended. Not a new engine layout but maybe fuel mass flow at 90l/H.

Edited by ollebompa, 24 February 2014 - 13:10.

[0Fritz]

I think it's unrealistic, the amount of power they would have to store in batteries to run a full race must be insane...

energy from braking is almost nothing, they would need massive batteries, or a way to transfer electricity while running!? or... a generator, which is not a pure electric car I think,

 

 

but I think it would make sense in 5 years or more to increase the power from the electric side, and maybe go with even smaller internal combustion engines, kind of like now, but with electric bigger, internal combustion engines smaller...

 

On the other hand maybe F1 wil be run by someone a little more sensible than Bernie/Todt, and see that for the viewers a screaming, big displaced V12 is much better and find a way to free up engine rules without increased costs. A standard, FIA issued block for instance.

Edited by 0Fritz, 24 February 2014 - 13:11.

[Jackmancer]

I think it's unrealistic, the amount of power they would have to store in batteries to run a full race must be insane...

energy from braking is almost nothing, they would need massive batteries, or a way to transfer electricity while running!? or... a generator, which is not a pure electric car I think,

 

 

but I think it would make sense in 5 years or more to increase the power from the electric side, and maybe go with even smaller internal combustion engines, kind of like now, but with electric bigger, internal combustion engines smaller...

 

Tesla's already recharge 20-30 minutes. The consumer technology is on the move at a very fast rate and maybe F1 pitstops will be 5 minutes, but I'm sure it'll be possible.

[KiloWatt]

Perhaps they'll do to the V6s what they did to the V10s, i.e. a double Cylinderectomy.  So we'll have V4s.  And then  while they're at it, double the recovery, storage and power output on the electric side.  I think 5 years is not an unrealistic estimate.  They fully mastered KERS in 3 years dead.

 

Edit:  On second thought, maybe 8 years.  These engines cost a ton to develop, it'd be wastefull to chuck it after 5 years.

Edited by KiloWatt, 24 February 2014 - 13:36.

[0Fritz]

Perhaps they'll do to the V6s what they did to the V10s, i.e. a double Cylinderectomy.  So we'll have V4s.  And then  while they're at it, double the recovery, storage and power output on the electric side.  I think 5 years is not an unrealistic estimate.  They fully mastered KERS in 3 years dead.

 

Edit:  On second thought, maybe 8 years.  These engines cost a ton to develop, it'd be wastefull to chuck it after 5 years.

 

You underestimate the power of FIA to throw away money. The frozen V8s already costed way more per unit than the V10's ever did. I think the only real cost cutting measure was the ban of qualifying engines, and their separate development.

[Jimisgod]

I think electric engines will happen earlier than 10 years. Could be here in 5 years. 

 

Nah, it will take at least another combustion engine regulation cycle before they gamble on electric engines. They will probably keep these engines for another 7 or 8 years (V8s lasted eight seasons). We'll see if the world wants formula E in 2021 and work from there.

[JdB]

2040 - slot cars

 

When do you think pedal cars will be introduced as a series?

[KiloWatt]

You underestimate the power of FIA to throw away money. The frozen V8s already costed way more per unit than the V10's ever did. I think the only real cost cutting measure was the ban of qualifying engines, and their separate development.

 

You reckon?  Why do you say that?  Not doubting, sincerely curios.

[Lazy]

On the other hand maybe F1 wil be run by someone a little more sensible than Bernie/Todt, and see that for the viewers a screaming, big displaced V12 is much better and find a way to free up engine rules without increased costs. A standard, FIA issued block for instance.

Yeah and replace the petrol with Testosterone. 

[0Fritz]

You reckon?  Why do you say that?  Not doubting, sincerely curios.

 

http://www.worldcarf...st-mario-illien

 

In another interview he stated he made 50 engines a year where they make 16 for the same money now (well, until the end of 2013)

Edited by 0Fritz, 24 February 2014 - 15:22.

[sabjit]

I have been trying to find the F1Fanatic article concerning this but I think the current engine is written in the rules until 2019 where a full freeze comes into place. I suspect there will be no changes until a few years after that.

[Donkey]

I think

 

2014-2022 = Current V6 turbos frozen. Perhaps they will relax some of the restrictions on the ERS and turbos towards the end of the period.

 

2022-2030 = I4 or V twin turbos with next gen ERS, probably running on biofuels.

 

2030 = Depending on how technology progresses, fully electric cars.

[SanDiegoGo]

It will be directly linked to where the engine manufacturers want to move. why anyone thinks global manufacturers will abandon the combustion engine in 10 or 20 year is beyond me. F1 isn't leading the revolution, it's merely reflecting it because the major motor companies are going there. Ferrari really don't want to be in this era, but they have to because the major engine manufacturers demand it for their mass produced efforts, not a Ferrari concern.  F1 needs major engine manufacturers and they have to justify the cost of development and participation in F1 and that means this technology has direct impact on future mass produced engines. Until Honda, Renault, Mercedes etc, are done with Petrol engines, F1 will not be going electric.

[LuckyStrike1]

I am pretty sure we'll see this headline

 

"Why electric cars sounds better than you'd think"

 

And when a former F1-driver and WDC (lets say Alonso or Vettel because he would never go against Hamilton and Kimi doesn't talk) would come out and criticize the move, Martin Brundle would slam him for it and tow the F1 company line. 

[Shambolic]

On the other hand maybe F1 wil be run by someone a little more sensible than Bernie/Todt, and see that for the viewers a screaming, big displaced V12 is much better and find a way to free up engine rules without increased costs. A standard, FIA issued block for instance.

 

This drivel again? Really?

 

As much as you might like a totally irrelevent, wasteful, archaic design, there are those who are passionate about F1 *and* are happy to have more updated technology. Even if it does mean the cars might not sound quite like a chorus of banshees shrieking in fury and anguish to the point of hearing damage.

 

The more I read these threads, the more I think a rival series needs to start - Formula Amish. We can all agree on an arbitrary cut off period beyond which we collectively agree no good came of advancments in technology, and enjoy "real" racing between stifled horseless carriages.

 

As for the future after the current engines, who knows. Electric is always bandied about as the future, but I'm not convinced the energy store required to do a whole race in a draggy, high speed car is likely to happen. Perhaps we'll get biofuels allowed, along with more emphasis on energy recovery as well as efficiency. Maybe even a combustion engine running ethanol, powering a generator which in turn powers an electric drivetrain.

[Jovanotti]

Or, as always in history, the pendulum swings back and F1 serves its purpose to allow people to act out their need for craziness in a controlled setting, i.e. back to ice bear-killing ****-political correctness V12 Turbo-powered cigarette advertising boards around the Nordschleife

Well, one can dream.

Edited by Jovanotti, 24 February 2014 - 16:23.

[Lazy]

Or, as always in history, the pendulum swings back and F1 serves its purpose to allow people to act out their need for craziness in a controlled setting, i.e. back to ice bear-killing ****-political correctness V12 Turbo-powered cigarette advertising boards around the Nordschleife

Well, one can dream.

Really not what F1 is about.

[pingu666]

there still only harvesting from the rear axle, which is 45%? Of brake balance, don't know how much of the retradation of that is from kers. So just a motor and bits for the front wheels would double your recovery, and there might be enough potential to increase harvest more too.

 

and wireless charging or battery change pitstops could make all electric feasable

[Jovanotti]

Really not what F1 is about.

Well if it was only about seeing who can design and drive the fastest car under a certain set of regulations, we wouldn't have all the whining abouy how everything that's not as loud as a V10 and does more than 1 mpg is 'not F1', would we?

[Lazy]

Well if it was only about seeing who can design and drive the fastest car under a certain set of regulations, we wouldn't have all the whining abouy how everything that's not as loud as a V10 and does more than 1 mpg is 'not F1', would we?

Totally agree, a lot of people have totally the wrong idea about F1.

 

IMO ofc

[KiloWatt]

http://www.worldcarf...st-mario-illien

In another interview he stated he made 50 engines a year where they make 16 for the same money now (well, until the end of 2013)

Cool, thanks for the link!

[Zoetrope]

2144

[0Fritz]

This drivel again? Really?

 

As much as you might like a totally irrelevent, wasteful, archaic design, there are those who are passionate about F1 *and* are happy to have more updated technology. Even if it does mean the cars might not sound quite like a chorus of banshees shrieking in fury and anguish to the point of hearing damage.

 

The more I read these threads, the more I think a rival series needs to start - Formula Amish. We can all agree on an arbitrary cut off period beyond which we collectively agree no good came of advancments in technology, and enjoy "real" racing between stifled horseless carriages.

 

As for the future after the current engines, who knows. Electric is always bandied about as the future, but I'm not convinced the energy store required to do a whole race in a draggy, high speed car is likely to happen. Perhaps we'll get biofuels allowed, along with more emphasis on energy recovery as well as efficiency. Maybe even a combustion engine running ethanol, powering a generator which in turn powers an electric drivetrain.

 

Come on, theyve been using hybrid technology since World War II iirc. What do you mean updated technology? Updated technology would be nuclear engines, but even that is very dated too so maybe fission, or ion engines. Didnt Renault test Electro Magnet valves 10 years ago? All banned. And isnt the engine freeze rule per definition holding back 'updated' technology? Forcing teams to use only 100kgs fuel is a nice step, but with that freeze, will end up being headed by reduction of revs, not increasing efficiency.

 

Add to that todays major car manufacturers use very sophisticated V12 in many models I dont think its a step back at all.

 

Sadly I dont think its gonna happen, and F1 needs to be 'green' or at least pretending to be.

Edited by 0Fritz, 24 February 2014 - 19:30.

[Disgrace]

2144

 

Makes sense; the drivers will be of primary school age by this point.

[Tommay]

Just give them 100kg of fuel and tell them to do what they want...

It'll advance technology far more then what we have now, heck even just say a fuel mass of 100kg. It's about time hydrogen started to be developed

Edited by Tommay, 24 February 2014 - 19:41.

[MikeV1987]

4 cylinders with an even bigger ERS or whatever they want to call it in the future.

[olliek88]

Let me just dwell on it, for say 6-9 years. Seriously it's impossible to know if F1 will even be around still. But if I had to guess I'd say full electric with energy recovery systems all over. And maybe they will use some new material that will be lighter and stronger, I think its carbon nanotubes or something like that that is supposed to be the next big thing.

 

Graphene - http://news.bbc.co.u...ine/9491789.stm

 

Read through the article and its easy to see why its "the next big thing etc". 

[Tapz63]

Yeah that is it mate. I was trying to think what it was called and kept thinking carbine.

[TecnoRacing]

Maybe in the future people can accept the fact that it's actually OK for road car industry and the 'racing industry' to have different ends...

With the former being about safety, sustainability/efficiency through technology etc., and the later reflecting the more superfluous - sport, art, spectacle

Being the 'pinnacle' of motorsport can simply be about having the lowest weight, highest powered machinery...

[JHSingo]

Hover cars are definitely the way forward, and will be powered entirely by air. Taking inspiration from NASCAR/V8 Supercars/BTCC, they can give it some suitably ridiculous title, like "the car of the next generation", TCOTNG for short.

[garagetinkerer]

2020 - electric cars
2025 - rubber band powered cars
2030 - wind up cars

  but you forgot this