71 replies to this topic

[oetzi]

Exactly. When there's a few tenths between 11 and 16th there's no way teams will be able to hit a delta on a qualifying lap that exactly. Some will luck out and end up 11 but no one will do it intentionally. I wonder if the extra tyre thing will encourage more runners in Q3. If you're due to qualify around 9-10th. Wouldn't you just save that extra tyre you're given for the race? Thereby nullifying the advantage the car behind in 11th has?

Yep. They wouldn't even know what they were aiming at until the session finished 

 

Re tyre saving, I can't remember what the new tyre rules for qualifying are, but until we see what the tyres are like this year there's no real way to even guess, to be honest. Maybe they'll be fine for 5 hot laps. Maybe for half of one. Who knows?

[Clatter]

Exactly. When there's a few tenths between 11 and 16th there's no way teams will be able to hit a delta on a qualifying lap that exactly. Some will luck out and end up 11 but no one will do it intentionally. I wonder if the extra tyre thing will encourage more runners in Q3. If you're due to qualify around 9-10th. Wouldn't you just save that extra tyre you're given for the race? Thereby nullifying the advantage the car behind in 11th has?

They can't. Its for Q only.

[oetzi]

They can't. Its for Q only.

Had a suspicion that was the case. Cheers.

[bonjon1979a]

They can't. Its for Q only.

yes, but it'll allow the teams to not use one of their allocation of option tyres and save it for the race. They'll use the extra tyre in qualifying and hand it back but that means they're not using the prime tyre they ordinarily would use.

[Clatter]

yes, but it'll allow the teams to not use one of their allocation of option tyres and save it for the race. They'll use the extra tyre in qualifying and hand it back but that means they're not using the prime tyre they ordinarily would use.

They might well do that, but at least they will have made one run to try and get as far up as they can rather than sitting it out.

[oetzi]

Yeah, there's no point not putting in at least one quick lap in that case. Assuming the car's generally healthy.

[Torsion]

I have a feeling that qualifying is going to be less important than in the past, with some obvious exceptions for places like Monaco.

 

I am particularly wondering whether the penelty for being held up behind slower cars temporarily would be lesser this year, as this would allow cars to just sit back for a while and simply save fuel, and just use the extra power later on, in free air.

[Youichi]

I suspect the most efficient method is going to be going flat out to start with to build a lead, and then saving fuel after half distance, if there's a safety car, you'll save enough fuel to be able to go flat out anyway. Those who've chosen to save fuel, will just have the penalty of being heavier, which leads to more tyre wear/slower accelerating and longer braking zones, so more fuel won't be an advantage.

 

One thing no one seems to be talking about, is the difference in fuel usage in qualy vs the race.  The mandated fuel flow rate is 100 kg/h, but the race is 1 hour 40 mins (or so), so the fuel limit in the race is 40% less than in qualy. Previously the Renault had an advantage in the races due to lower fuel usage meaning they were lighter, whereas this year, a lower fuel usage would just mean you can run full beans for longer. Additionally one engine may have an HP advantage in qualy with more fuel, but then have to go slower in the races with less fuel, leading to the Trulli problem, where people start in front of where their race pace would put them.

[RoutariEnjinu]

Additionally one engine may have an HP advantage in qualy with more fuel, but then have to go slower in the races with less fuel, leading to the Trulli problem, where people start in front of where their race pace would put them.

Another way of describing the Trulli problem is a lot of racier cars starting lower down than they 'should' be. Surely that's a good thing.

The Trulli Train shouldn't be a problem with DRS.

[BillBald]

I have a feeling that qualifying is going to be less important than in the past, with some obvious exceptions for places like Monaco.

 

I am particularly wondering whether the penelty for being held up behind slower cars temporarily would be lesser this year, as this would allow cars to just sit back for a while and simply save fuel, and just use the extra power later on, in free air.

 

It depends how slow the cars are. If you are losing a couple of seconds a lap, compared to the guys you think you should be racing, then you need to get past, it won't be viable to sit there and just save fuel.

 

But half a second a lap, that would probably be OK for a short while. The main problem with this strategy, is the effect it might have on tyre deg. Following other cars closely might still be a problem, and when you finally get free air and start using full power, that might also cause more deg. because you'll most likely have more wheelspin.

 

I think overtaking will be possible on most tracks, so I don't think we'll see much of that kind of cruising and fuel-saving.

[paipa]

One thing no one seems to be talking about, is the difference in fuel usage in qualy vs the race.  The mandated fuel flow rate is 100 kg/h, but the race is 1 hour 40 mins (or so), so the fuel limit in the race is 40% less than in qualy.

The 100 kg/h fuel flow rate is a momentary, peak limit and not average. So the engines can never consume more than 27.77 grams of fuel in any given second. As most tracks only have something like 60-70% of full throttle action anyway, the consumption difference will not be SO big between race and quali. There will be tracks where they won't even be able to use up 100 kg over a race because of the peak flow rate limit. Funnily enough the flat-out Monza could be one of them, as the race lasts 1h18m and burning all 100 kilos of fuel at maximum flow rate takes 1 hour.

[RoutariEnjinu]

The 100 kg/h fuel flow rate is a momentary, peak limit and not average. So the engines can never consume more than 27.77 grams of fuel in any given second. As most tracks only have something like 60-70% of full throttle action anyway, the consumption difference will not be SO big between race and quali. There will be tracks where they won't even be able to use up 100 kg over a race because of the peak flow rate limit. Funnily enough the flat-out Monza could be one of them, as the race lasts 1h18m and burning all 100 kilos of fuel at maximum flow rate takes 1 hour.

How did you arrive at the 1h18m figure? Not doubting it, just curious.

[aisiai]

The 100 kg/h fuel flow rate is a momentary, peak limit and not average. So the engines can never consume more than 27.77 grams of fuel in any given second. As most tracks only have something like 60-70% of full throttle action anyway, the consumption difference will not be SO big between race and quali. There will be tracks where they won't even be able to use up 100 kg over a race because of the peak flow rate limit. Funnily enough the flat-out Monza could be one of them, as the race lasts 1h18m and burning all 100 kilos of fuel at maximum flow rate takes 1 hour.

That's what I was wondering about. You say per second. But is that really the "sampling period" of the flow rate?

[paipa]

How did you arrive at the 1h18m figure? Not doubting it, just curious.

I will let you guess.

[RoutariEnjinu]

I will let you guess.

Lap-time and lap-count plus average fixed times like pit-stops. The only variable in there is lap-time, so I was wondering what you were working to?

[paipa]

That's what I was wondering about. You say per second. But is that really the "sampling period" of the flow rate?

I don't think so. Apparently the sensor that they use is capable of a 1KHz sampling rate, but that's all I know.

 

EDIT: I checked the regulations and there is no mention how often they are going to poll the sensor, but it's telling that there is a formula for max fuel flow rate below 10,500 rpm. So it must be a fast, realtime thing. My guess would be a 5-10Hz sampling rate so having one more or less injection cycle in the period doesn't affect the average, etc.

Edited by paipa, 26 February 2014 - 16:24.

[paipa]

Lap-time and lap-count plus average fixed times like pit-stops. The only variable in there is lap-time, so I was wondering what you were working to?

Well, I checked last year's results.

[redviper22]

Another way of describing the Trulli problem is a lot of racier cars starting lower down than they 'should' be. Surely that's a good thing.

The Trulli Train shouldn't be a problem with DRS.

 

ever heard of the DRS train?

[RoutariEnjinu]

Well, I checked last year's results.

Fair enough. I'm just wondering if the lap-time might actually be quicker there than last years cars, compared to other tracks where it may be slower or relatively unchanged.

[RoutariEnjinu]

ever heard of the DRS train?

Direct Rail Services?

As I remember it, the Trulli Train was from an era where you had to have a far bigger lap-time delta to the defensive car in front to get by.

We've still seen cars with DRS stuck behind others, but it's usually due to a massive difference in gearing. The chasing car is usually off the limiter.

With the torque we have now to go along with the slippier cars, on top of the more effective DRS and extended braking zones. I don't think we're going to see significantly quicker cars stuck behind a fuel saving "Trulli" like we have done before. A slower car in front should still be able to defend, but hopefully not by just not making mistakes, but by being more clever.

[paipa]

Fair enough. I'm just wondering if the lap-time might actually be quicker there than last years cars, compared to other tracks where it may be slower or relatively unchanged.

Yeah, I'm wondering the same. Lost aero probably won't hurt them much in Monza so if they are going to be quicker anywhere it should be there. Especially with the bigger ERS. They will harvest a lot and it's always the long straights where better acceleration gains them the most.

[SenorSjon]

ever heard of the DRS train?

 

Jup, when they all had it, nothing happens.