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UK government consultation document for running motor sport events on closed public roads


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#1 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:50

Please forgive this rather OT thread, but this does need to be publicised. The UK government has today announced a consultation on running closed road motor sport events on mainland Britain. This consultation runs for six weeks until 10 April 2014. It can be found here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications?keywords=&publication_filter_option=consultations&topics[]=all&departments[]=department-for-culture-media-sport&official_document_status=all&world_locations[]=all&from_date=&to_date

 

The MSA has come up with advice on how to respond; it can be found here:

 

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/newsarticle.asp?chapter=1&nid=1618

 

I’d encourage all UK TNFers to respond positively so that maybe we can at last run motor sport events on closed public roads just as they do in Northern Ireland, Europe and elsewhere.



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#2 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:56

It's a good move by the MSA but the places where such events can take place are limited by the attitude of the local council, the local green lobby, the nature of the roads and if there are national parks. Even if it does go through it is unlikely that it will be small events that get the go ahead. Big events with big spenders staying for a few days are a good way to justify how it helps the local ecconomy despite what event downsides there are for local residents. That's how most of the big events like the JCMR and Mull are able to do it along with all the motorpsort in the Isle of Man.



#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:58

I assume this is a precursor to the Formula E event in London. 



#4 Imperial

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 13:04

Is anyone from Autosport reading this, who can get it publicised in the magazine?

 

 

IIRC it was Autosport who publicised a public consultation a few years ago regarding the selling off of forest land (this would have impacted negatively on rallies, amongst other activities).  I completed that consultation and we won (the government abandoned the plans).

 

 

 

If enough of us respond positively to this, we can win this one too.

 

 

Also...any Twitter users who could try to persuade Tony Jardine to publicise this?  Tony has been working with Sunderland council to bring some form of rallying to the city.  They ran a successful demo event at Herrington country park in 2013, would be nice to see the possibility of seeing public roads in the city being used.

 

Erm...just wondering why this is in TFN by the way?  It's your choice of course, but would it not be best served (and reach a larger audience...?) in RC?


Edited by Imperial, 27 February 2014 - 15:19.


#5 Imperial

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 17:23

I see this topic has essentially been hijacked by autosport.com going down the 'Hey we can have a London GP' route.

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 17:28

You can thank McLaren and Santander for that.



#7 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 17:53

Erm...just wondering why this is in TFN by the way?  It's your choice of course, but would it not be best served (and reach a larger audience...?) in RC?

I raised it here because TNF is my forum of choice - I rarely visit RC. If you'd like to raise it there please go ahead. :up:



#8 Mistron

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 19:22

Before the innevitable 'Elf n safety'll never allow it' rant which will always accompany these type of discussions (Brighton & Hove Council got a bit of a rough deal over the recent speed trials issue) I'd recomend anyone interested have a read of the following document, HSE's guidance on motor sport events:

http://www.hse.gov.u...iced/hsg112.pdf

 

For what it's worth, the MSA H&S management system is a very good example of how risks can be managed appropriately and allow a lot of great events to take place. If local councils follow these guidelines in their supporting roles there is no (H&S) reason road racing can't happen in the UK.

 

Insurance however.........

 

Al (now, happily, an EX HSE inspector)



#9 BRG

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 21:33

The Borders region has demonstrated with the Jim Clark Memorial Rally that closed road rallying can be run safely and successfully with strong local community support.  As has the island of Mull.  I see no reason why other parts of the UK should be any different.  In the past, rural Wales was generally very welcoming to road rallies and I am sure that welcome would be equally extended to closed road events.  It is only in the south-east where there might be problems, but the road closures for the Olympic cycle races in Surrey were tolerated with surprising equanimity considering the blundering and clumsy way that Surrey CC and Police applied them.

 

Unlike Derwent Motorsport, I see the possibility of small events, with minimal disruption to local folk, such as hill climbs and single stage rallies or rally sprints, gaining local authority support more easily than major events.  



#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 23:51

Always worth a try, if only to wind-up local politicians...  I can think of some magnificent public road circuit possibilities here on the Surrey/Hampshire border, but the MSA and local authorities would probably consider only urban venues, and then line them with Adelaide, Phoenix, Dallas, Brummagem-style concrete walls with debris fencing on top before they would let loose any cars of interest upon them (as opposed to boring tin-tops).  

 

Recent experience of local residents uniting in ferocious opposition to the road closures caused by the Tour of Britain bicycle race, and by the Olympic Games bicycle road race before it, indicates that most proposals would in any case be suffocated by Nimbyism...  A fact of modern life, I fear.  I also fear for the survival of existing true road racing in Eire, Ulster and to some extent on the Isle of Man, but it seems to be a fact that modern racing motor-cycle performance has more or less outstripped almost any such venue - and the political attention focused by the mounting toll of riders there makes eventual abolition increasingly likely.

 

Just for fun, have any of you ever favoured a loop of nearby public roads to form a wonderful racing circuit...?

 

DCN



#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 00:05

How did the Birmingham Super Prix deal with this? Or was the law post- that event?



#12 Stephen W

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 10:18

The Borders region has demonstrated with the Jim Clark Memorial Rally that closed road rallying can be run safely and successfully with strong local community support.  As has the island of Mull.  I see no reason why other parts of the UK should be any different.  In the past, rural Wales was generally very welcoming to road rallies and I am sure that welcome would be equally extended to closed road events.  It is only in the south-east where there might be problems, but the road closures for the Olympic cycle races in Surrey were tolerated with surprising equanimity considering the blundering and clumsy way that Surrey CC and Police applied them.
 
Unlike Derwent Motorsport, I see the possibility of small events, with minimal disruption to local folk, such as hill climbs and single stage rallies or rally sprints, gaining local authority support more easily than major events.


I agree that the smaller events would tend to be less disruptive but you can also add sprints to your list. In my town there is an ideal section of road that runs round a park. The park could act as the paddock and as luck would have it none of the roads that would be used have housing on them!

I also think that such events need to be annual affairs. If you ran an event more than once a year on the same stretch of road the locals would soon get fed up. However an annual affair would be more acceptable and liable to bring in local sponsors as well.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:13

How did the Birmingham Super Prix deal with this? Or was the law post- that event?

Act of Parliament, Ross. Only way it can be done at present. The relevant legislation goes back to 1930: http://forums.autosp...-2#entry5493319 et seq



#14 BRG

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:55

 

Recent experience of local residents uniting in ferocious opposition to the road closures caused by the Tour of Britain bicycle race, and by the Olympic Games bicycle road race before it, indicates that most proposals would in any case be suffocated by Nimbyism...  A fact of modern life, I fear.  

That is due to cumulative events - three annual 'Olympic' races, plus the Tour, a triathlon that closed down Ockley, and a myriad of charity bike rides.  It is the clumsy road closures for the big Olympic race that annoyed people most.  Closing a road for the whole day for a race that passes in 10 mins is massive bureaucratic overkill.  By contrast, I went to Newlands Corner for last year's Tour of Britain to see professional riders attacking a hill (hardly Alpe d'Huez, but the best we've got here!); the A25 was closed about 15 mins before the peleton arrived and re-opened 10 mins aftet the last rider passed.  Maybe 30 mins in all.  Even the NIMBYist can hardly complain about that.

 

Motorsport closures would be time limited and run by clubs, not by Surrey CC numpties.  We would also have to do PR and visit every affected household, unlike hte Olympic race which was simply imposed by the Council.  I found that there had been a 'consultation meeting' in East Horsley but only 7 people attended, mainly because it wasn't publicised.  I beleive that road closures can succeed if done sensitively and that events can garner strong local support by working with local folk rather than just telling them.  The Surrey bike backlash is mainly due to people feeling powerless, not being consulted and basically being told rather than asked.  Our sport can do it a lot better if we ever get the chance.



#15 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 12:11

It does seem that the cycle events are able to work on a different set of rules. Of course closing the roads is easy, almost anyone can do it but suspending the RTA and speed limits is what the new Act is about. However the bike lads regularly break the speed limits and could be said to be riding "recklessly"! I am a parish clerk and I was really surprised that we got no notification from anyone about the Tour of Britain coming through our villages until I complained. Even a daylight historic rally with non competitive road sections has to inform parishes and local residents. The Tour of Britain did neither and did not even take their directions signs down after the event. Motorsport is much better organised. Local folk did turn out to watch the ToB but were really underwhelmed by it. There and gone in about a minute!

Having run about 130 rallies over the years, I think we might get about 3 new events in the whole UK. There are very few areas that fit the criteria needed. You can forget national parks or areas where there are lots of holiday homes. You would need loops of about 30 miles of twisty roads to run twice for a smaller event near a based town. Perhaps north Wales where road events still exist?

I do seem some scope for making events like Kop Hill competitive and some hill climbs but the cost may be the big stumbling block.



#16 BRG

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 12:44

I think the possibilities are wider than that.  You only have to look at where road closures have been allowed - Blackpool Prom (NW Stages) Bournemouth Prom (Winter Rally), New Brighton, Great Orme, Oliver's Mount, Madeira Drive in Brighton and so on.  Apart for the recent Green attack on the latter, these are all used with the enthusiastic support of local authorities and people. But our sport needs to approach it carefully - baby steps first, rather than closing half of Yorkshire for three days for a WRC round.  We could see a return to those halcyon days when local people turned out in droves just to see the RAC Rally pass by or stop for a time control or service point.  Nothing like a free spectacle to get people out to watch.



#17 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 15:16

I think the possibilities are wider than that.  You only have to look at where road closures have been allowed - Blackpool Prom (NW Stages) Bournemouth Prom (Winter Rally), New Brighton, Great Orme, Oliver's Mount, Madeira Drive in Brighton and so on.  Apart for the recent Green attack on the latter, these are all used with the enthusiastic support of local authorities and people. But our sport needs to approach it carefully - baby steps first, rather than closing half of Yorkshire for three days for a WRC round.  We could see a return to those halcyon days when local people turned out in droves just to see the RAC Rally pass by or stop for a time control or service point.  Nothing like a free spectacle to get people out to watch.

Yes, all those listed here are venues owned by the local council or land owners and not Public Highways as defined in the RTA so the new law isn't needed. However in all cases there is strong financial case for those venues being used, either by bringing in trade to the resort or by the organisers paying a fee.

The Jim Clark Rally has been a  susccess because it a) evolved from an event on Otterburn ranges and Kielder Forest and b) because the Duns area is steeped with motorsport with a host of well know drivers from that region. The only other are where there is that feeling is north Wales where night road rallies are still enjoyed.



#18 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 15:19

I for one am looking forward to the inevitable street race in Kirkby Mallory.



#19 Bloggsworth

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 17:53

£100 million to organise the race, £200 million to fight the court cases brought by the green lobby...



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#20 arttidesco

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 18:07

The MSA has come up with advice on how to respond; it can be found here:

 

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/newsarticle.asp?chapter=1&nid=1618

 

I’d encourage all UK TNFers to respond positively so that maybe we can at last run motor sport events on closed public roads just as they do in Northern Ireland, Europe and elsewhere.

 

 

Done :up:

 

Worth it even if the only out came was a Formula E race, The Telegruff was hinting even F1 might be on the cards in the sports pages :smoking:



#21 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 18:24

Done :up:

 

Worth it even if the only out came was a Formula E race, The Telegruff was hinting even F1 might be on the cards in the sports pages :smoking:

Never having heard of Formula E before I took it that "E" was "Ecclestone" and it implied effone. You seem to imply that's wrong.



#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 18:29

Formula E is a new electric racing series. Will run from autumn to spring and be all city races.

 

But it will be far cheaper to run than most street circuits because they're one day events and the speed/weight of the cars are such that the safety doesn't need to be to the same level as something like F1 or even GTs. So build cost and time to build won't be as high. 



#23 BRG

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 21:23

But it will be far cheaper to run than most street circuits because they're one day events and the speed/weight of the cars are such that the safety doesn't need to be to the same level as something like F1 or even GTs. So build cost and time to build won't be as high. 

This seems to be the theory, but I think it is BS.  These FE cars are going to be going plenty fast enough (if not for very long - a bit like a Renault powered F1 car) and if they go off, they will need the same safety precautions as F1, GP2, WEC or whatever.  Preparing a street track for FE will cost just as much as for regular motor racing, plus the extra cost of wiring the place for recharging!

 

Using street tracks is just a gimmick; they will talk about taking the racing to the people and all the same old tired rhetoric that we already heard when CART/IRL went to street tracks .  We already had a street circuit in the UK, in Birmingham.  That soon enough disappeared into history.



#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 21:27

'Just a gimmick' is called marketing. Formula E isn't aimed at the TNF crowd or motor racing purity. It's trying to be different and going where the money is. 

 

It's only makes about 250hp and the tracks wont be as big/long as an F1 or Indycar track, and just by having shorter weekends it will be easier and cheaper to pull off.



#25 BRG

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 21:36

'Just a gimmick' is called marketing. Formula E isn't aimed at the TNF crowd or motor racing purity. It's trying to be different and going where the money is. 

 

It's only makes about 250hp and the tracks wont be as big/long as an F1 or Indycar track, and just by having shorter weekends it will be easier and cheaper to pull off.

Most professional motorsport is about marketing, so the gimmicks are just the same.  FE is using the same arguments that have been used often before.  It's why F1 went to Detroit and Long Beach and Houston and Las Vegas and Valencia and Singapore - with added floodlighting gimmicks - etc etc.

 

F3 only has about 250bhp - would they be allowed to race on a track with lesser safety?  No.  And setting up a track will cost the same whether it's for one day or four days.  The length of the track will make a little difference, certainly, but they still need all the same facilities whether it is 2km or 20km long.


Edited by BRG, 01 March 2014 - 21:37.


#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 21:43

You've seen F3 at Pau right? Guardrail instead of concrete, much less extensive fencing and runoff. It all ads up. A Formula E street race will be much less disruptive than other events. I was wary of how they'd pull it off until I took those details into account.



#27 elansprint72

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 23:30

Where is That London?



#28 Rob29

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:00

Where is That London?

The FE event is I guess what you are refering to? I think is planned for docklands arround the Olympic park( like the one in Sochi)

The subject of this thread I think refers to stage rallies?



#29 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:01

The consultation document covers all types of motor sport event that could benefit from using closed public roads:

 

The motor sports industry have provided evidence to show that there could be a demand to hold up to 20 on-road motor sports events around Britain each year, generating up to £40m of income for the host communities during the initial 5 year period. The events could include stage rallies, hill-climbs, races and speed trials (sprints).  The term “motor sport event” is being used in this consultation to cover any of these.

(my highlighting)



#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:32

Where is That London?

Awright ... calm down ... calm down ...

 

harrye134qt2.8333.jpg



#31 BRG

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 21:07

You've seen F3 at Pau right? Guardrail instead of concrete, much less extensive fencing and runoff. It all ads up. A Formula E street race will be much less disruptive than other events. I was wary of how they'd pull it off until I took those details into account.

You are right of course.  But bear in mind that Pau is a circuit that has been in use for a long time and has some sort of 'grandfather rights'.  If you were to propose a brand new track with those sort of safety features today, you wouldn't get it past square one.  Just like if you proposed to use the Monaco track for a F1 GP for the first time ever in 2014, the FIA would have an aneurysm and you would be hustled off the premises and told to never come back.



#32 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:32

The MSA has just issued a new message encouraging support for this consultation, which closes on 10th April:

 

There is just one week left to have your say on proposals to facilitate closed road motor sport on mainland Britain. The government announced a consultation on closed road motor sport last month, running for six weeks until 10 April. We urged the British motor sport community to come together and support the proposals, and the response was overwhelmingly positive. However we must not be complacent. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to shape the future of our sport for the better; every voice counts and we need anybody who has not yet responded to do so before the deadline. Please don’t leave it to others! The quickest and simplest way to respond to the consultation is to copy the suggested answers below, paste them into an email and send them to msc@culture.gsi.gov.uk

 

Thank you for your support.

 

Rob Jones
 

MSA Chief Executive

 

 

RE: Proposal to Authorise Motor Sport Events on Public Roads Consultation

 

Q1. Do you agree with the proposal to give local authorities the powers to allow motor sport events on public roads subject to the local consultation? If you disagree please give reasons.

Answer: Yes I agree. The UK leads the world in terms of motor sport with the industry generating an estimated £9bn for the economy annually and employing 41,000 people in 4,300 companies. Yet the UK lags behind much of the rest of the world, including the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland, in not allowing motor sport events to take place on closed public roads. Allowing motor sport events to be held on closed public roads will provide an economic boost to host communities; support the growth of UK motor sport and the associated industry; allow engaging events to be created; and create a valuable platform for taking road safety messaging to the wider public.

 

Q2. Do you agree that local authorities should be able to close roads for motor sport events? If you disagree please give reasons.

Answer: Yes I agree. Empowering local authorities to be able to close roads for motor sport events would represent a positive devolution of power. It will mean that local people, rather than politicians in Westminster, will be able to determine what happens on the roads in their region and will ensure that Parliament does not need to spend its valuable time debating whether or not to close a road somewhere in the country. It is an important principle that no organisation other than the Local Authority should be granted powers to close its roads, as this ensures that no event can be forced upon a region against the will of the locally elected Authority.

 

Q3. Do you agree that local authorities should have the power under certain circumstances to suspend the speed limit and applicable road traffic regulations? If there are any traffic regulations you would prefer not to see suspended, please give reasons.

Answer: Yes, I agree that local authorities should have the power under certain circumstances to suspend the speed limit and applicable road traffic regulations. This is on the understanding that the road traffic regulations are replaced by established and robust sporting regulations, as laid down by the MSA and ACU, to ensure that all events are well organised, properly regulated and fully insured.

 

Q4. Do you agree that the Motor Sports Association and the Auto Cycle Union should be the “Authorising Authority” for any motor sport events on public roads?

Answer: Yes I agree. The Motor Sports Association (MSA) and the Auto-Cycle Union (ACU) both have many decades of experience of governing four- and two-wheel motor sport in the UK. The MSA is recognised by motor sport’s world governing body, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), as the sole national sporting authority for four-wheel motor sport in the UK. The ACU is similarly recognised by the Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) as the national sporting authority for two-wheel motor sport in the British Isles. They are the only organisations with the experience, knowledge and resources necessary to act as the Authorising Authorities for any motor sport events on public roads. With the MSA and ACU as Authorising Authorities, only drivers and riders who have been formally licensed for competition by the governing bodies would be eligible to take part in motor sport events on closed public roads. The MSA and ACU licensing structures are suitably robust and rigorously enforced to ensure that licensed competitors are suitably competent to take part in the motor sport events they enter.

 

Q5. Do you agree that the Sports Ground Safety Authority could provide valuable expertise and guidance to ensure motor sport events on roads can be delivered safely?

Answer: No, I doubt that the SGSA would be able to add value in this environment. Both the Motor Sports Association (MSA) and the Auto-Cycle Union (ACU) operate comprehensive, long-established and successful risk management programmes for four- and two-wheel motor sport respectively. Motor sport is a unique and complex sporting activity and requires specific experience and expertise to deal with its diverse events and venues, and especially to manage the risks associated with vehicles travelling at speed which is unique to our sport. It seems unlikely that the SGSA would be able to offer anything valuable in this context over and above the experts from the MSA and ACU, other than perhaps the facilitation of a forum for liaison with the necessary statutory bodies. Furthermore, the involvement of another body simply introduces an additional layer of bureaucracy that inevitably adds costs to organisers and competitors alike.

 

 



#33 RS2000

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 21:05

Except the answer to Q4.

There is already a list of the bodies authorised to promote motorsport and (for 4-wheeled sport) it includes more than the undemocratic, unelected MSC/MSA.

Beware of encouraging legislation that eliminates the option of alternatives/competition in governing bodies, effectively forever - and apply some amendments to that bit.

A rather nasty trick by the MSA (who, whilst we support and applaud the aim of closed roads), are using this opportunity to divert attention from several failings that had them on the back foot with competitors.



#34 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 21:27

Except the answer to Q4.

There is already a list of the bodies authorised to promote motorsport and (for 4-wheeled sport) it includes more than the undemocratic, unelected MSC/MSA.

Beware of encouraging legislation that eliminates the option of alternatives/competition in governing bodies, effectively forever - and apply some amendments to that bit.

A rather nasty trick by the MSA (who, whilst we support and applaud the aim of closed roads), are using this opportunity to divert attention from several failings that had them on the back foot with competitors.

I'm afraid I do not understand this: the RAC-MSA is the Authorising Authority for four-wheeled motor sport in the UK as is the ACU for two- and three-wheelers.

Those bodies authorised to promote motor sport are authorised by the RAC-MSA or the ACU.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 04 April 2014 - 21:27.


#35 RS2000

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 22:18

Not so. A small number of other organisations have such authority (since the Road Traffic Act was extended to private land and exemption for properly organised motorsport was granted). The MSA has no monopolies at present.

Even the route authorisation role for events on (open) public roads, ie.road rallies and road sections of stage rallies, is a Government task allocated/delegated currently to the MSA, not a role the MSA holds permanently or by right.  

To attempt to create a new/first monopoly in the small print on the back of this initiative is a nasty little trick.



#36 Michael Ferner

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 13:16

Just for fun, have any of you ever favoured a loop of nearby public roads to form a wonderful racing circuit...?

 

DCN

 

Guilty, m'lord, and a series offender at that! :smoking: Even given the proximity of the Nürburgring, I'd have plastered the Eifel with dozens of road circuits if given half a chance :lol:



#37 D-Type

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 15:21

I'm afraid I do not understand this: the RAC-MSA is the Authorising Authority for four-wheeled motor sport in the UK as is the ACU for two- and three-wheelers.

Those bodies authorised to promote motor sport are authorised by the RAC-MSA or the ACU.

 

 

Not so. A small number of other organisations have such authority (since the Road Traffic Act was extended to private land and exemption for properly organised motorsport was granted). The MSA has no monopolies at present.

Even the route authorisation role for events on (open) public roads, ie.road rallies and road sections of stage rallies, is a Government task allocated/delegated currently to the MSA, not a role the MSA holds permanently or by right.  

To attempt to create a new/first monopoly in the small print on the back of this initiative is a nasty little trick.

 

What is the position here?

I know that circuit racing, rallies, hillclimbs, and sprints come under the RAC/MSA.  I believe that, although they have their own national organisations, karts and drag racing also come under the MSA

What about short track oval racing, i.e. stock cars?  There seem to be several promoters who each set their own regulations.  Are they outside the MSA?

Lawnmower racing?  But they are unlikely to spread to public roads.

Similar questions arise with motorcycles: I believe circuit racing, hillclimbs and trials come under the ACU but do speedway, grass track and drag racing?

Are there other organisations that fall outside the MSA and ACU umbrella?  Hovercraft racing ihas a lot in common with motor racing although they don't have wheels


Edited by D-Type, 07 April 2014 - 19:36.


#38 RS2000

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 19:06

Nothing regarding any branch of UK motorsport exclusively comes under the MSC/MSA (except, arguably, International permit events that "come under" the FIA, where the MSC/MSA is the UK FIA member). 

The list of other organisations outside the MSC/A is largely as indicated by D Type above. The missing ones are NASA (the rural "short oval" - or more often "short kidney" - national 4 wheel grasstrack sanctioning body) and at least one non-specific one (a name something like "Professional Drivers Association"?).  

None are "branch of sport specific" ie. technically/legally all can authorise any type of motorsport. The practicalities come in trying to organise insurance etc.for the first time outside your normal sphere of influence. 

Some are effectively private fiefdoms (short oval takes its line from NASCAR in that respect) and some are demonstratively more democratic than the MSC. (The MSA is merely the paid help, although some would say it wields a form of influence/control over the "parliament", the MSC, that the national civil service can only dream of). 

It is  perhaps worth noting that by far the most controversy generated within MSC/MSA spheres is regarding new regulations that require additional expenditure by competitors. Moving to some semblance of an elected democracy would invariably concentrate power with the grass roots competition licence holders and remove the influence of the "trade". So it's not hard to see why progress is non existent... 



#39 GMACKIE

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 21:49

Just for fun, have any of you ever favoured a loop of nearby public roads to form a wonderful racing circuit...?

 

DCN

It almost happened in Canberra - with the blessing of Malcolm Fraser, the Prime Minister. He "didn't have the numbers", as they say.



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#40 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:54

There are in fact eleven organisations recognised by the government to authorise odd road events under the 1991 RTA. The one disuccced above is the International Organisation of Professional Drivers, which i think was set up to cover stunt drivers like Russ Swift but had broadened it's score to all tyoes of events and certainly covers those commercial evewnts like the "Straightliners" who put in informal drage and drifting events around the country.

The full list is:  

-The Royal Automobile Club (now the Motor Sports Association or MSA)
-The Amateur Motor Cycle Association Ltd
-The Association of Land Rover Clubs Ltd
-The Auto Cycle Union Ltd
-The British Schoolboy Motorcycle Association
-The National Autograss Sport Association Ltd
-NORA 92 Ltd
-National Traction Engine Trust
-The Youth Motorcycle Sports Association (YMSA) Ltd
-The Scottish Auto Cycle Union Ltd

- International Organisation of Professional Drivers.

 

It is interesting that six are to do with motor cycle sport and just three (Land Rover, Autograss and MSA are car sports).

I see from their website the IOPD describe themselves as: “The authorising and regulatory body for British Motoring Events”, which is clearly not the case.

As far as authorising on road events the Department of Transport contracts this to the MSA. Any group/individual who wishes to run an event which falls under the RTA Trials and Rallies regulations has to apply to the MSA for route authorisation. They don’t have to be MSA affiliated.

The MSA was formed when the RAC wished to concentrate on its gentlemen’s clubs and also sold off its recovery operation. It is highly undemocratic. It has just 28 members, of which 14 are on its board. How you become a member is not known but looking at the list of names it does not require an involvement in motorsport.

The MSA Board then appoint the Motor Sport Council. Again an unusual list of names. The only person who is actually elected is the Chair of the Regional Committee which is made up of representatives of the dozen of so regions associations. The other “specialist” committees which look after each discipline and make up the regulations are appointed by the MSA appointments panel. Who is on this panel has never been revealed. There is no form of democracy other than that clubs and regional associations can nominate people with a good CV.  Strangely (?) people who have lots of experience and represent the majority are rarely appointed. The panel seem to go for folk who will not rock the boat. I’ve been nominated 5 times and never been appointed. Last time I was nominated by three associations but I suspect I am considered too radical and pro democracy by the MSA!



#41 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:03

Thanks for that , Derwent, which shows that my understanding of the authority heirarchy is out of date since the 1991 RTA.

I am not necessarily a believer in democracy in this matter but I do share your concerns that the RAC-MSA people are not from a motor sport background.

In the days that the Competition Department of the RAC controlled our activities, most of the people in charge at Pall Mall and (later) Belgarve Square were retired motor sport people such as Dean Delamont, Basil Tye and C.R. Whitcroft and the rest were often currently involved.

At some time after the move to Colnbrook I was discussing with someone, whose job it was, the numbers of starters we could have on a new version Silverstone's Club Circuit and as his understanding of what I said seemed poor I asked which motor sport discipline he was from. He told me they were not allowed to be involved as "it could lead to a conflict of interests."

More recently (about a year ago) I was shocked when RAC-MSA proudly announced the appointment of a new Chief Executive whose background was:

He has over twelve years’ top-level experience with the Rugby Football Union as its Chief Operating Officer and is also a Director of Sports Coach UK and the Sport & Recreation Alliance.

He seems to have lasted less than six months, so maybe . . . .


Edited by Allan Lupton, 08 April 2014 - 10:03.


#42 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:19

Actually NIck Bunting was a breath of fresh air and impressed everyone at grass roots level. He may not have been a motorsport person but he quickly saw the problems in the sport's government and wanted to make the radical reforms that were needed. It seems the MSA board simply refused to accept any form of democracy (loss of power/gravy train etc) and he saw his position as untenible.

Interestingly they have now appointed a new CE internally without advertising..................


Edited by Derwent Motorsport, 08 April 2014 - 10:40.


#43 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 13:53

Motorsport to be allowed on Britain's public roads, No 10 announces

#44 BRG

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 15:39

I'm not holding my breath over this one.  Just another random vote-winning ploy by Cameron, which will be U-turned rapidly once his grass-roots people start spluttering in indignation into their pink gins.



#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 15:55

Given that - as Ross pointed out earlier - they're going to need legislation to run Formula E in Battersea Park next year (and probably not entirely conicidentally BBC News have been running a piece about Formula E today, complete with an interview with Katherine Legge) I'd say it's a done deal already. Dave doesn't need Boris as an enemy ...

 

After all, it's not going to be compulsory to run anything. It just gives councils the option - if they so desire. Despite all the Bernieandborisbluster I doubt we'll ever see a London GP. Sprints, hillclimbs, tarmac rallies and maybe a few bike road races are all I expect.



#46 elansprint72

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 15:59

Just another piece of fluff from a lame-duck prime minister, making up "policy" on the hoof in a bid to deflect attention away from the NHS, Royal Mail privatisation, Social Security, Immigration and other debacles. I know we don't do politics here but, really, he is just telling his audiences what they want to hear. Move along, there's nothing to see... :rolleyes:



#47 D-Type

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 18:02

I'm a believer in "Walk before you run", I'd like to see some minor meetings to iron out the bugs of running a full-blown F1 GP on public roads.  Logistics, crowd control, traffic management, emergency services, etc.  The Olympics and the Tour de France show that it can be done successfully, if there's the will . . .

 

What was the reason that the Birmingham F3000 race was discontinued?



#48 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 18:28

Just another piece of fluff from a lame-duck prime minister, making up "policy" on the hoof in a bid to deflect attention away from the NHS, Royal Mail privatisation, Social Security, Immigration and other debacles. I know we don't do politics here but, really, he is just telling his audiences what they want to hear. Move along, there's nothing to see... :rolleyes:

 

If they had announced a bid for a World Cup you might have a point, but I don't think the population are rising up in cheers over the possibility there might be street racing soon.



#49 RS2000

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 21:39

The blunt facts are that "Health and Safety" considerations will make it nearly impossible to run anything other than the very highest category events (= the only heavily sponsored ones). Recent events on the Jim Clark Rally, despite the circumstances, will not help. There is a fundamental problem in getting even experienced spectators to behave, leave alone the casual ones, and the fact that it is a public road, albeit a closed one, will contribute.

As an ex rally Clerk of the Course, I would not be prepared to take on the overall responsibility today, knowing the targetted aggro of even yesteryear. Also knowing the economics of club speed events (hillclimbs and sprints) and the fact that closure from dawn to dusk and uninterrupted noise is involved (when a rally stage is of much less duration) means the basic grass roots are the least practicable candidate events. Lets just hope someone is prepared to try.



#50 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 00:19

I may get shot down here but rallying is dangerous. Motorsport events on closed public roads can be too. Though less so as the crowd control is generally better. This for a hillclimb event over a couple of KM.

To run a race  meeting and get the relevant insurance will cost a fortune. The AGP is an example, you have to have proper barriers with debris fencing made. Once you have them they then have to be stored, transported and put up every event.

The Formula E is a big WHY to me, but do need the same barriers etc that any racemeet would have. Plus ofcourse secondary fencing and access and egrees of crowds and residents. It is far cheaper to run on a proper circuit. And FE will have crowds in the dozens so it will never be viable except on a proper race circuit.

And if it rains road drainage, white lines etc become very dangerous. The Adelaide Parklands circuit is an example.

As an occasional sprint and hillclimb competitor I would consider some closed road events, there is a few venues here in SA which can/ could be great without great disruption to many. BUT the chances of an accident are far higher. And open wheelers are specifically excluded from this style of event, as are even clubman type cars sometimes. Not enough driver protection.