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What's Wrong With Ferrari?


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#1 PoleMan

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:19

This is a sincere effort to provide a "cyberhood" where like-minded people can share their views on what's wrong with Scuderia Ferrari. Whether that would be disaster stories about the current car, the hopelessness the coming season appears to offer, or which team members should be fired -- or any other issues they'd like to discuss about what's not working at the team.  

 

It's my hope that the folks who want to castigate the team will come here, while the driver threads and car threads can be focused on those topics.

 

The F14T thread has certainly morphed into "The car's a dog," "No, let's wait and see," territory. I'm sure the same would happen once the Kimi Vs. Alonso thread is born. With a thread dedicated to discussing the problems at Ferrari (Management, Drivers, Car, etc), those who wish to, will have a place to do so, while those who'd rather not, can just focus on the latest "news" on the car or drivers.

 

Seems like a reasonable compromise, if the Mods are okay with it.



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#2 Cacarella

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:22

Second post and I'm already off topic because I don't want to participate, but I'm in favour of this thread - then I can go back to enjoying the car thread instead of having to go

to other forums for that.



#3 Kingshark

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:35

Unlimited testing banned

Rory Byrne and Ross Brawn gone

Michael Schumacher and Jean Todt gone

Ancient windtunnel and simulator

Poor engines (both V8 and V6)



#4 Owen

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:39

Er... we haven't started racing yet. Give them a break!



#5 Jon83

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:43

The changes in 2009 are something the team has never seemed able to get to grips with.

 

It may well be that the Ferrari car isn't the dog it is being made out to be and may in fact only be behind Mercedes, who may have built the rocket ship that the media and various others told us they had (before the steering wheel had even been turned) which would mean things aren't as bad as they seem.

 

After 2012 though and coming incredibly close to the miracle that year, who knows what can happen.

 

The team had a fantastic 10-12 years all in all when they dominated many seasons. Nothing ever lasts though. But I think the team desperatly needs success soon.

 

In relation to this coming season, I'm thinking Brawn 2009 with Mercedes and by the time others may catch-up to whatever degree, it may be too late (slightly off topic, sorry)



#6 showtime

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:50

Has any other team done better apart from Red Bull in 2008-2013? What's wrong with Mercedes, or Williams, or McLaren? People are taking for granted a lot of things for this season. 



#7 opplock

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 16:55

the hopelessness the coming season appears to offer,

 

 

I had thought that the other thread was entitled "RENAULT problems are catastrophic". The word hopeless better describes Lotus and Red Bull on the available evidence.



#8 Okyo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:02

Unlimited testing banned. That's all there is to it i dear say. With the WAST resources they could go round and round their own PERSONAL track 24/7 and they wouldn't need to relay on the wind tunnel and make excuses as "correlation issues". That's probably the reason why they haven't been able to create a good, dominant car in years. The last reg change in 2009 made the teams drop everything they knew and used previously and surprise, surprise, they lost the best team title. Couldn't really get on top of problems ever since. This year is another shake up of the rules/design of the cars, and i'm guessing Ferrari might struggle a bit again.

Still, they have more resources than most, then why are they still strugling more than others? Well, they aren't. They are always up there, fighting at times for the wins. They should be proud, as should the fans. Ferrari is the only team to do so (though not wining titles). It's just another example, that shows the old truth of this sport - Money doesn't win you titles and races. It's great minds and good ideas that do so.

So to answer this thread, what's wrong with Ferrari? They don't have the best mind out there, as Byrne has retired and Newey ain't for sale. These two minds alone were a part of almost every brilliant car in the past two decades.

Edit: i know that the first part and the last part of this comment doesn't really go together 
:lol: Got to a different conclusion as i was thinking. STILL, i see both of them as reasons  :cat:  


Edited by Okyo, 03 March 2014 - 17:06.


#9 PoleMan

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:16

Just to be clear to those unfamiliar with my posting history, I don't think there is anything particularly "Wrong" with Ferrari. I approach this season with guarded optimism, as I have most of the last 4 seasons. Fighting for the WDC 3 out of 4 years is hardly a bad thing. But some feel the season is already lost and repeat that view quite often, which was threatening to derail the F14T thread. So the purpose of this one is to give those folks who are of like mind, already despairing about the Scuderia's chances and calling for people to be fired, a place to come and share/air their views. 


Edited by PoleMan, 03 March 2014 - 17:17.


#10 DrF

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:41

Ferrari is fine. It's the Tifosi who need to brew a cup of chill! No, the car isn't setting the track on fire during testing and (over)analysts are reading things into the apparent performance of the car and then shouting Doom and Gloom. The team and drivers have said that it's a long season and they are focussing on getting the numbers from the WT to correlate with the track and ironing out the myriad gremlins which all the teams have been experiencing. Yes, they are behind Mercedes, but there's no indication that Merc has resolved the tyre problems from last year and Ferrari are most certainly not in the same situation as Red Bull or Lotus! I personally think this is a perfect situation. A team with a phenomenal driver line up and a car which is not necessarily the quickest at the moment, taking on a team which does seem to have its ducks in a row and also has good drivers. What will happen on race day in Melbourne? I have absolutely no idea. Will Merc eat its tyres again? What will happen over the season? Will Renault and Red Bull sort their problems out and make a late charge? Will Massa win the WDC? It's all wide open. Isn't this what we want?

#11 Massa_f1

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 17:42

I would agree with the post above about 2009. I think ever since the rule changes in 2009 it hurt this team the most. It has never able to get back up to where it once was. Alonso has flattered the car in previous seasons.



#12 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:17

Everybody who wants to say nothing but positive stuff about Ferrari need to start their own thread. You guys can call it the 'Official Ferrari Cheerleading Thread'.

This will be my one and only post in here. I refuse to give into this ridiculous thought policing of the main Ferrari thread.

#13 Hanzo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:52

Ah! At last!  :drunk:

 

 

 

No "Ferrari problems are catastrophic" thread yet?  We are safe, then. At least for now.

 


#14 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 19:56

Everybody who wants to say nothing but positive stuff about Ferrari need to start their own thread. You guys can call it the 'Official Ferrari Cheerleading Thread'.

This will be my one and only post in here. I refuse to give into this ridiculous thought policing of the main Ferrari thread.

 

I don't believe PoleMan started it because of the optimism/pessimism thing, in fact it's all there in the opening post.  In the car thread you can be pessimistic about the car to your heart's content. But if you haven't noticed, the car thread was derailed again today, the mods stepped in to the point of comtemplating to lock the thread for good. This is for those who want to talk about firing people they more or less just know the name of. Though I think we have good threads already:

Should Ferrari sack Baldiserri?

Should Ferrari sack Stefano Domenicali?

Is it time for Ferrari to replace it's management?

Ferrari needs to fire Domenicali to be the best team

Should heads roll at Ferrari?


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 03 March 2014 - 19:58.


#15 Arn

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:04

They are based in Italy.

 

If you want to build the fastest/best F1 car, you have to be based in South/Central England and have loads of money.

 

The dominant Schumacher years of 2000-2004 was an extraordinary exception. 



#16 Atreiu

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:13

Nothing wrong yet, this has been the toughest and hardest to understand pre season for the entire grid since God knows when...


Edited by Atreiu, 03 March 2014 - 20:21.


#17 HoldenRT

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:29

The changes in 2009 are something the team has never seemed able to get to grips with.

 

It may well be that the Ferrari car isn't the dog it is being made out to be and may in fact only be behind Mercedes, who may have built the rocket ship that the media and various others told us they had (before the steering wheel had even been turned) which would mean things aren't as bad as they seem.

 

After 2012 though and coming incredibly close to the miracle that year, who knows what can happen.

 

The team had a fantastic 10-12 years all in all when they dominated many seasons. Nothing ever lasts though. But I think the team desperatly needs success soon.

 

In relation to this coming season, I'm thinking Brawn 2009 with Mercedes and by the time others may catch-up to whatever degree, it may be too late (slightly off topic, sorry)

 

Agree.. they are lacking something, an x factor in terms of the car design because they are always solid but rarely spectacular but even during a bad period Ferrari have still been pretty good!  The early days of 2009 were pretty bad but each season since (with their RBR clones) they've been pretty good.  That's the problem though, when you clone another, it's hard to outdo someone who is being themselves.  The x factor is having people clone you.. and then that means you are the one who is a step ahead.

 

And for people who already think this years car is a dog based on testing.. lol @ them.  Maybe they'll be proven right but there hasn't even been a race yet and it's all to play for.
 



#18 Cacarella

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:29

Everybody who wants to say nothing but positive stuff about Ferrari need to start their own thread. You guys can call it the 'Official Ferrari Cheerleading Thread'.

This will be my one and only post in here. I refuse to give into this ridiculous thought policing of the main Ferrari thread.

 

I'm not interested in a big F14T circle jerk, nor am I interested in every other post running along the lines of 'the team is doomed, season is already over!" "off with Stefano's head!"

or my least favorite... "Truth! Truth!  You can't handle the TRUTH!!!"

 

What I am interesed in is quite simply what is in the title of the Ferrai F14T thread...  wait for it...     ...the Ferrari F14T (not the 'main Ferrari thread' as you put it).

 

And please, try not to limit your posts in this thread...  by all means...



#19 HoldenRT

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:30

I would agree with the post above about 2009. I think ever since the rule changes in 2009 it hurt this team the most. It has never able to get back up to where it once was. Alonso has flattered the car in previous seasons.

 

The car has had it's strengths though, for example.. always good race pace, some good starts and good consistency.  Qualifying pace and a few other things have been lacking.
 

edit - And Stefano for example, he is a nice guy but in the F1 world he is too nice.


Edited by HoldenRT, 03 March 2014 - 20:31.


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#20 showtime

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:32

They are based in Italy.

 

If you want to build the fastest/best F1 car, you have to be based in South/Central England and have loads of money.

 

The dominant Schumacher years of 2000-2004 was an extraordinary exception. 

 

WTF?  :confused:



#21 turssi

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:32

Not winning WDC.

Not winning WCC.

#22 maverick69

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:43

I don't know if anything is up with them as such - but their exclusive relationship with Bridgestone often flies under the radar.

Anyone who has been karting will tell you that he who has the best rubber.......

#23 DaiMOn

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:47

The problem is the color of the cars IMHO. I did some research and I made the following statistics based on the results of the last few years:

 

Year | Base color of the car

 

2008 | Silver

2009 | White

2010 | Blue  

2011 | Blue

2012 | Blue

2013 | Blue

 

So they should paint the cars blue. It's quite obvious...



#24 AlexS

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:53

Current F1 problems for Ferrari:

 

1- F1 regulation and Ferrari Culture. Ferrari has an empirical culture not a scientific formula culture. Ferrari to develop goes to track not to laboratory, Ferrari are not theoreticians they are practical, emotional people. The F1 regulatory emphasis in simulation instead of track time robbed Ferrari of ways to be Ferrari

 

2- F1 regulation emphasis in aerodynamics. Ferrari never rated aerodynamics as the main area of development for F1, they never saw F1 as an aerodynamic formula, so they were completely unprepared to see F1 turned into it.  When F1 freezed almost everything except aerodynamics it penalized Ferrari more than other top team.

 

3- Ferrari management. Doesn't seem to know what it is Ferrari culture. So they didn't defended themselves  when regulations went clearly against it.

We have the Montezemolo moaning about "we make cars not planes" but only after profound damage is made.

 

4- Domenicalli. He is not the proper person to defend Ferrari.



#25 undersquare

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 20:58

IHMO it's Montezemolo.  Classic corporate CEO sticking his head round the door, affecting or taking decisions but not fully engaged.  

 

And soooo full of himself but I don't think he's inspiring at all.



#26 noikeee

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 21:14

What's actually wrong with Ferrari is that their fans are entitled as shit since they've won 5 titles in a row and the FIA and FOM granted them special treatment (seriously, an exclusive veto on rules? higher share of TV revenue than anyone else?).

 

Meanwhile the economy has gone to shit in Italy meaning they no longer have the outright highest budget, they cannot attract F1's star designer because they're almost the only team which isn't based in the motorsports cluster in England, their godlike driver retired and all the other people involved in their success got tiring of winning everything and went for new challenges as it's only natural they would; testing was forbidden taking away from them their massive home track advantage, there was a series of rule changes resetting their huge advance on everyone, and the tyre manufacturer they had tight ties with went away from F1.

 

They continue to win races every year since forever, and continue to challenge for the title every other year. But every time they fall a litlle behind is catastrophic disaster. Boo f*cking hoo.

 

(by the way on topic beyond my sarcastic rant - I do think they've got a bad car this year. Think they might make it to 3rd or 4th in the WCC but wouldn't expect more and probably might be a little further behind than that on pace at the moment which yes it's not good enough for their ambitions).


Edited by noikeee, 03 March 2014 - 21:15.


#27 FBJim

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 21:14

The last five years have been, in terms of results, absolutely nothing compared to the times where Ferrari were *actually* in crisis. Maybe Mercedes will win the WCC. Maybe McLaren will. Maybe Ferrari have the second best car, but the best driver lineup (I'd take Alonso over either Button, Rosberg, or Magnussen easily, and Hamilton's always liable to throw away a result or two). But the idea that Ferrari has to win everything, otherwise the team are in crisis, is ridiculous.

 

Ferrari has won at least one Grand Prix every year since 1993. If you want a real Ferrari crisis, try the early 90s, or the early 1970s. 



#28 cokeb

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 21:15

Only one team can win the WCC each year. Only one team can win the WDC each year. 2nd is first of the losers, even though it might mean finishing only one point behind the winners.



#29 quasi C

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 21:22

Just to follow on from what Arn said I think candidates coming out of Uni are more likely to stay where there is a high concentration of F1 teams, ie southern England. A lot of the top aeronautics universities are based there [Imperial, Southampton, Cambridge..] so perhaps it's unlikely that they are willing to uproot and move country. I notice that a lot of the junior guys at Ferrari are Italian, it just seems they have a smaller pool of talent to pick from given that people come from all over Europe to study at those British Unis. These are the guys who are actually going to design the car, people like Allison and Fry are just technical managers. I dunno, probably completely wrong, it's just a theory thrown out there.  

 

Just to add also they've been overall the best non-RedBull team over the last 4 years, not too shabby really.


Edited by quasi C, 03 March 2014 - 21:26.


#30 Tsarwash

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 21:22

2010 - 2013
McLaren 1451 points. 18 wins. 47 podiums. 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th.
Ferrari 1525 points. 11 wins. 50 podiums. 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.
Apologies for any mistakes in counting, (taken from Wiki.)
Fairly equal I would suggest. One telling thing is that Massa only achieved 7 of those 50 podiums, and none of the wins. (obviously he gave one up.)I think that in hindsight (sorry) if Ferrari had employed a better two driver strategy (and perhaps tried to employ somebody more able to produce results than Massa,) they could have had better overall results compared to McLaren.
I'm not knocking Ferrari here, just suggesting that it has not been that bad since 2009. Red Bull have been the best, Ferrari and McLaren the best of the rest.

#31 0Fritz

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:04

IHMO it's Montezemolo.  Classic corporate CEO sticking his head round the door, affecting or taking decisions but not fully engaged.  

 

And soooo full of himself but I don't think he's inspiring at all.

 

Yeah, if only hed be more like that lovable, aimable Ron Dennis, right? Or Martin Whitmarsh.

 

Seriously, I think its a combination of factors, but I think it must be embarrassing that Mercedes GP has overtaken them from a midfield team position and even with totally new engine regulations, Ferrari cannot impress. Last year Domenicali said they didnt understand the EBD, but that was banned for 2014 and everyone starts from scratch and they invested so much time in the 14 car. I can only imagine what the Italian newspapers will write when Ferrari fights for P5 next week. Domenicali's admission that they are smaller and behind Williams and Mercedes...ouch.



#32 undersquare

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:26

Yeah, if only hed be more like that lovable, aimable Ron Dennis, right? Or Martin Whitmarsh.

 

Seriously, I think its a combination of factors, but I think it must be embarrassing that Mercedes GP has overtaken them from a midfield team position and even with totally new engine regulations, Ferrari cannot impress. Last year Domenicali said they didnt understand the EBD, but that was banned for 2014 and everyone starts from scratch and they invested so much time in the 14 car. I can only imagine what the Italian newspapers will write when Ferrari fights for P5 next week. Domenicali's admission that they are smaller and behind Williams and Mercedes...ouch.

Well Pat Fry was a mistake, by the look of it.  Massa was a mistake.  How they ran Kimi was a mistake.  Tweaking their lead driver's ear, wow.  Sacking Dyer for covering Webber, how would that make the rest of the guys feel?...

 

Monte sticks his nose in and cocks things up.   Well maybe Allison with save them, let's see.

 

As for Ron, at least he's someone people will follow, someone with real bottle, even if he's not likeable.  I don't think Ferrari has anyone like that, mainly IMO because people of Todt's calibre challenge Monte's inflated ego.  Just my external view anyway.  As  Lewis fan I regard Monte as a massive asset  :p .

 

Even so, things are not that bad.  If they'd won 2010 things would look different.  The season has yet to unfold and PU's will be allowed to equalise over time I suspect.



#33 turssi

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:34

Is there any info how the Japanese tire guy has fitted in?

He together with Allison need to make things happen.

#34 0Fritz

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 22:46

Well Pat Fry was a mistake, by the look of it.  Massa was a mistake.  How they ran Kimi was a mistake.  Tweaking their lead driver's ear, wow.  Sacking Dyer for covering Webber, how would that make the rest of the guys feel?...

 

 

 

 

Ouch! Points taken!

 

"Even so, things are not that bad.  If they'd won 2010 things would look different.  The season has yet to unfold and PU's will be allowed to equalise over time I suspect."

 

Im a Red Bull fan but id be all in Mercedes' camp if both them and Ferrari use these reliability and safety upgrades to improve their engines to the point they get more power.

 

They signed up for these ridiculous new engines, a 4 week track testing time. Ferrari even argued they did not want a V4 but a V6 as that would reflect better on their cars...well they made their bed as far as im concerned. Let Mercedes reflect their V6 on the Ferrari block all year unaltered I say. Improvements can be made at the end of the season.



#35 George Costanza

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:36

They loss Ross Brawn and Jean Todt.

 

IF they were there, I bet Fernando Alonso would be a two time WDC for Ferrari by now and four overall. Kimi won the title while Jean was there.

 

I think Ross should have been TP, not Stefano.


Edited by George Costanza, 03 March 2014 - 23:37.


#36 undersquare

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 23:53

Ouch! Points taken!

 

"Even so, things are not that bad.  If they'd won 2010 things would look different.  The season has yet to unfold and PU's will be allowed to equalise over time I suspect."

 

Im a Red Bull fan but id be all in Mercedes' camp if both them and Ferrari use these reliability and safety upgrades to improve their engines to the point they get more power.

 

They signed up for these ridiculous new engines, a 4 week track testing time. Ferrari even argued they did not want a V4 but a V6 as that would reflect better on their cars...well they made their bed as far as im concerned. Let Mercedes reflect their V6 on the Ferrari block all year unaltered I say. Improvements can be made at the end of the season.

I hope Ferrari and Renault don't get too much leeway to improve their PU's, I'm just thinking back to when there was talk of a common engine merely  

branded differently.  Though that was in the Mosley era I suspect 'the sport' doesn't want too much of a power differential.  Bernie and Todt in particular won't want Ferrari to be looking underpowered all year, so I think Ferrari will be okay as the season goes on.



#37 RiDE

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:04

Im a Red Bull fan but id be all in Mercedes' camp if both them and Ferrari use these reliability and safety upgrades to improve their engines to the point they get more power.

 

They signed up for these ridiculous new engines, a 4 week track testing time. Ferrari even argued they did not want a V4 but a V6 as that would reflect better on their cars...well they made their bed as far as im concerned. Let Mercedes reflect their V6 on the Ferrari block all year unaltered I say. Improvements can be made at the end of the season.

 

You've posted this repeatedly but what makes you think only Ferrari was behind the engine change? FYI, the 4 cylinder turbo was proposed because that's what VW/Audi wanted:

 

"The initial decision from the engine working group was for a four-cylinder turbo to be introduced for 2013," said Newey. "The big driver behind that was Audi. They said they would come into the sport if there was a four-cylinder turbo, and that's what everyone agreed in order to get Audi in. They subsequently decided that they won't bother after all, thank you very much, and we were lumbered with a four-cylinder turbo." He said a V6 turbo is a much more practical solution due to its dimensions. "You can then get into the politics of the whole thing," Newey added. "Certainly from an engineering point of view a four-cylinder turbo is not a nice engine to install, you've basically got to put a spaceframe around it, you can't make it a properly structural. A racing V6 is a much nicer engine to package. That will now be the 2014 engine. http://en.espnf1.com...tml?CMP=OTC-RSS

 

 

Ferrari has one of the biggest budgets in F1, at least 3 times what Williams has. They can afford Alonso, Kimi and a host of other expensive key people. Their salary budget alone is probably the entire year budget of a team like Sauber, Force India. In fact, a considerable part of the Sauber year budget is going straight into Ferrari. They invested multiple millions in simulator, windtunnel and other tools. Ferrari wanted a V6 because it made more sense to their production (or what was it that Montezemolo said?) and they have a much, much longer history of building F1 engines than Mercedes, who dont even have an own factory, but bought Ilmor.

 

That Domenicali says they are smaller is pathetic. Really, Domenicali should stop with his excuses. He signed up for these rules, manipulated them to get his prefered V6, now he should deliver or do the honourable thing.

 

 

 

Do you have a source on this manipulation? You realize any changes to the rules need approval from all teams? If Ferrari AND Mercedes really had their way they would still be using V8s.


Edited by RiDE, 04 March 2014 - 02:06.


#38 boldhakka

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:10

They chose to play in a level playing field (sort of). 



#39 DanardiF1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:39

IHMO it's Montezemolo.  Classic corporate CEO sticking his head round the door, affecting or taking decisions but not fully engaged.  

 

And soooo full of himself but I don't think he's inspiring at all.

 

Yeah he thinks he's this great leader like Agnelli or something, when really he just spent a shed load of money on poaching the other team's best guys. Pinched Todt from WRC and Le Mans-winning Peugeot, Brawn and Byrne from double title winning Benetton, Schumacher from the same team, and all the way through the team.



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#40 DanardiF1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:47

They chose to play in a level playing field (sort of). 

 

I'd disagree... they are the only team who has spent close to what Red Bull has spent... it's just that Red Bull IMO have spent slightly better (and I say slightly because like all examples of financial doping in sport unlimited funds tend to be spent very badly. Just look at Man City and Chelsea in English football... they're light years ahead of the other sides in terms of financial muscle, yet you see well run and managed teams like Liverpool snapping at their heels).

 

Ferrari's problem in recent years is that they have come across a more efficient version of themselves: Red Bull.

 

They've also got an aero department that IMO seems to have little connection or just overriding precedence over their suspension and vehicle dynamics department. The two don't seem in alignment to me because their cars since the lovely 2010 F10 have been increasingly mechanically compromised for seemingly little aerodynamic gain. Even this years car is a mess of stupidly high suspension and a nose which seems to betray the purpose of the suspension in the first place! Each year you see Alonso with bags of understeer and no-one at Ferrari goes... 'hmmm, that might be an inherent flaw in our design!?!'

 

They have been competitive to the degree they have through sheer financial muscle AND the incredible determination and skill of Fernando Alonso. They are beholden to him like they cannot imagine.



#41 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:27

Yeah he thinks he's this great leader like Agnelli or something, when really he just spent a shed load of money on poaching the other team's best guys. Pinched Todt from WRC and Le Mans-winning Peugeot, Brawn and Byrne from double title winning Benetton, Schumacher from the same team, and all the way through the team.

 

Whatever you think of LdM these days, you are missing a large and important part of Ferrari's and LdM's history.


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 March 2014 - 06:28.


#42 boldhakka

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:49

I'd disagree... they are the only team who has spent close to what Red Bull has spent... it's just that Red Bull IMO have spent slightly better (and I say slightly because like all examples of financial doping in sport unlimited funds tend to be spent very badly. Just look at Man City and Chelsea in English football... they're light years ahead of the other sides in terms of financial muscle, yet you see well run and managed teams like Liverpool snapping at their heels).

 

Ferrari's problem in recent years is that they have come across a more efficient version of themselves: Red Bull.

 

They've also got an aero department that IMO seems to have little connection or just overriding precedence over their suspension and vehicle dynamics department. The two don't seem in alignment to me because their cars since the lovely 2010 F10 have been increasingly mechanically compromised for seemingly little aerodynamic gain. Even this years car is a mess of stupidly high suspension and a nose which seems to betray the purpose of the suspension in the first place! Each year you see Alonso with bags of understeer and no-one at Ferrari goes... 'hmmm, that might be an inherent flaw in our design!?!'

 

They have been competitive to the degree they have through sheer financial muscle AND the incredible determination and skill of Fernando Alonso. They are beholden to him like they cannot imagine.

 

Yes, but why? You list a lot of proximal causes. The OP wasn't looking for responses which contain the word "understeer". Go deeper. 



#43 Astro

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:15

There is nothing wrong with Ferrari. There is only a view of Ferrari from the Schumacher years that some fans cannot shake off.

 

Ferrari's main advantage was having their own track. Now we should try to guess what gives to RBR its advantage. "Newey" or "Aero" are easy answers that don't explain much. RBR chassis this year looks quite ahead of the rest again. Why exactly? What do they have that others lack when designing the chassis? I don't think it is a matter of geniuses and wizards. F1 has brains to spare. There must be something in their working philosophy, tools, etc., that gives them better results.



#44 Arn

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:21

WTF?  :confused:

It's not that difficult to understand.

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/23048643

 

If Ferrari would be based there and spend the amount of money they do, they would likely be much more successful.



#45 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:42

There is nothing wrong with Ferrari. There is only a view of Ferrari from the Schumacher years that some fans cannot shake off.

 

Ferrari's main advantage was having their own track. Now we should try to guess what gives to RBR its advantage. "Newey" or "Aero" are easy answers that don't explain much. RBR chassis this year looks quite ahead of the rest again. Why exactly? What do they have that others lack when designing the chassis? I don't think it is a matter of geniuses and wizards. F1 has brains to spare. There must be something in their working philosophy, tools, etc., that gives them better results.

 

As I think that the designers or engineers or technicians or mechanics in other teams are as good as the ones at RedBull, it must indeed be someone who gives the appropriate impetus / the right ideas. Someone who must be kind of a mastermind and that person must indeed be Newey (given his record and sucess and CV at other teams before his time at RedBull). There is no other explanation.

 

Once again in 2014 the car looks much more modern or sharp or enhanced than all the other ones (especially in the back area of the car). Once all the gremlins are sorted out (it depends when during the season all that will be achieved), it will be (I guess) easily the best car once again. If this continues (with stable rules for the next few years), it could very well be that Vettel could become an octuple WDC at the age of 29 (as the probability is very high that Webber-ish or Ricciardo-esque drivers will always be his teammates). Then I could very well imagine that what Webber said not so long time ago could come true, namely that Vettel could retire at a still very young age.

 

Just think about that: retiring at 29 with that title amount and every few years there will be a top team which will strongly attempt to lure him into a comeback. He won't come back and the hysteria or legend or myth will constantly rise because everybody will ask themselves what else he could've achieved.

 

How much luck can someone have to be beneficiary of such a long period with almost always perfect Newey cars where there was not even one real flop among them and at the same time not extremely strong teammates!? Well, I guess Vettel is the person with that amount of luck..



#46 Afterburner

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:14

As I think that the designers or engineers or technicians or mechanics in other teams are as good as the ones at RedBull, it must indeed be someone who gives the appropriate impetus / the right ideas. Someone who must be kind of a mastermind and that person must indeed be Newey (given his record and sucess and CV at other teams before his time at RedBull). There is no other explanation.


I get this bit, but...

Once again in 2014 the car looks much more modern or sharp or enhanced than all the other ones (especially in the back area of the car). Once all the gremlins are sorted out (it depends when during the season all that will be achieved), it will be (I guess) easily the best car once again. If this continues (with stable rules for the next few years), it could very well be that Vettel could become an octuple WDC at the age of 29 (as the probability is very high that Webber-ish or Ricciardo-esque drivers will always be his teammates). Then I could very well imagine that what Webber said not so long time ago could come true, namely that Vettel could retire at a still very young age.

Just think about that: retiring at 29 with that title amount and every few years there will be a top team which will strongly attempt to lure him into a comeback. He won't come back and the hysteria or legend or myth will constantly rise because everybody will ask themselves what else he could've achieved.

How much luck can someone have to be beneficiary of such a long period with almost always perfect Newey cars where there was not even one real flop among them and at the same time not extremely strong teammates!? Well, I guess Vettel is the person with that amount of luck..

What does any of this have to do with 'what's wrong with Ferrari'? :drunk:

#47 jstrains

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:16

I think there is nothing wrong with Ferrari. You cannot win all the time. Just look at Manchester Utd. who is maybe the Ferrari of football, a great club with a rich history, but not winning now. That is sports :wave:



#48 BRG

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:18

I think there is nothing wrong with Ferrari. You cannot win all the time. Just look at Manchester Utd. who is maybe the Ferrari of football, a great club with a rich history, but not winning now. That is sports :wave:

I am a very far from being a Ferrari fan (Porsche for ever!) but this is one of the most sensible posts I have seen for a long time.  I think the Ferrari fanatics need to get a grip.



#49 0Fritz

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:38

You've posted this repeatedly but what makes you think only Ferrari was behind the engine change? FYI, the 4 cylinder turbo was proposed because that's what VW/Audi wanted:

 

 

 
 

 

 

Do you have a source on this manipulation? You realize any changes to the rules need approval from all teams? If Ferrari AND Mercedes really had their way they would still be using V8s.

 

Where did I say 'only' Ferrari was behind the push for the V6? I just wanted to make clear they made a lot of noise how they didnt want the v4 but where very happy to have a V6. ""The choice of having a V6 turbo engine from 2014 is the right one and I am pleased to note that common sense prevailed,"

 

http://uk.reuters.co...E7I12KO20110701

 

 

Then later, at the end of 2012 Montezemolo for some reason backed down, and indeed, thought it was wiser to keep the V8's but initial he was happy as a puppy with the V6. Rumours surfaced Ferrari had problems in design and fuel usage with the new engine in 2013. The exact same ones we hear and read today.

 

Its ironic you posted a link to that article wich states that Renault pushed for a new engine format, and pushed hard for a V4 and if not theyd pull out of F1, under a link of an article were Newey said hed rather have a V6. The original objections of Montezemolo were the opposite, and he threatened to leave F1 if no V6.

 

Its was and is a right old mess.

 

To stick with the topic: its this changing attitude towards new regulations wich is part of Ferrari's problem. They signed up and agreed the new engine rules, and then backed down 2 years later. They got their delay of introducing those engines to 2014 and still they couldnt manage it right.

 

 

I really struggle to believe this would have happened under Todt. He would either not agree with the new rules, or make sure the structure was in place to design and build a competitive V6 that would work from day one. Todt and MOntezemolo might not have been the best of friends, they were on the same page were it concerned Ferraris future and politics.

 

I sometimes get the feeling that Domenicali doesnt have much to say in what Montezemolo wants, is not clear enough what his factory is capable of and what not, or that Ferrari is ready for rule changes.



#50 fabr68

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:49

They have a track specifically built to develop Formula 1 cars. The have not been able to use it on their current season car for what? 10years.

It is the equivalent of taking all Newey's wind tunnels away.

But then again, fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.