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Massa's move to Williams, best thing that could happen to him?


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#1 F.M.

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:56

Will Massa being sacked from Ferrari and joining Williams turn out to be the best thing that could ever happen to him?
Williams looks to be on course for a strong season, having a bulletproof car with some pace in it as well. It looks all but certain that he'll be in front of Alonso's Ferrari for at least the first part of the season.

I'm looking forward to seeing a rejuvinated Massa fighting at the top end, beating his old employer :)

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#2 David Lightman

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:57

I'd say it's fairer to say his contract wasn't renewed rather than 'sacked'. I'd say 'sacked' was Ferrari dumping Prost for likening his car to a truck.



#3 SilentKiller

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:58

I see him getting upstaged by Bottas quite often this season.



#4 Imateria

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:59

That entirely depends on his performances. Until we see it in the races there's no way to know whether he back on top of his game or is the same underperforming, sporadically fast but wildly inconsistent driver that makes rookie errors that we've seen over the last 4 years.



#5 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:07

Vettel has so many doubters that think he needs the best car to win and that he's not good in traffic and when the car's not good.

But nobody - and I mean nobody - on the grid deserves that accolade more than Felipe Massa.

As far as being the best thing that ever happened to him - I'd say that should probably be Ferrari hiring him as a test driver. He was on his way to relative mediocrity before that. This led to Massa getting a race seat in 2006, where he then spent three consecutive seasons in absolutely topline cars. How many drivers get that opportunity in their lifetime?

But yes, its probably the best(and luckiest) thing to happen to him recently.

#6 Clatter

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:08

Will Massa being sacked from Ferrari and joining Williams turn out to be the best thing that could ever happen to him?
Williams looks to be on course for a strong season, having a bulletproof car with some pace in it as well. It looks all but certain that he'll be in front of Alonso's Ferrari for at least the first part of the season.

I'm looking forward to seeing a rejuvinated Massa fighting at the top end, beating his old employer :)

You can't be sure of that.



#7 BRG

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:09

He will be rejuvenated until the fateful day when Smedley grabs the mike to tell him 'Valteri is faster than you...'



#8 fabr68

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:52

Well, how do they say?

no more excuses?

#9 acey

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:22

I'd say it's a little early to say for two reasons:

 

1. There is a chance that the Williams might still be shit, and running around at the back can't be too much fun, no matter how "liked" you are.

 

2. He might get spanked by Bottas, which would not do his reputation any good. 

 

But we can always hope!



#10 redviper22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:23

Alonso has already said that he expects Massa to be a strong rival in 2014.



#11 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:32

Massa WDC in the last corner, last race overhaul Hamilton by one point, Alonso led him by on a slippery track, you heard it here first :cool:



#12 August

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:36

I think this will be a big season for both Massa and Bottas. Losing to Bottas would completely destroy Massa's reputation in top teams' eyes. Maybe he could be a good No.2 but never a No.1 as he can't even beat his teammate. On the other hand, Bottas losing to Ferrari's former No.2 wouldn't give too good an image of him. If Williams ended up having a poor season and Massa lost to Bottas, I wouldn't be sure of him retaining his seat for 2015, especially if Nasr showed some potential. Nasr would still be a Brazilian driver for Brazilian sponsors. Bottas has more time, I believe Williams want to keep him anyway for 2015, unless he has a disastrous season.

 

But if Williams has a great season, then I believe both drivers will have a good chance to retain their seats, unless a very big name wants to join Williams. And if both Williams drivers were WDC contenders this year, I see no free seats in the team for 2015. Also, if Massa (or Bottas) had a great championship campaign showing some masterclass racing, I could see big teams getting interested in him, just like they got interested in almost-forgotten Button during 2009. This season seems like a great chance for the Williams drivers but I'm a bit sceptical about 2015, can the team keep up their form? I had high hopes for 2013 after 2012 but it was a disappointment.



#13 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:44

The saying 'don't count your chickens before they are hatched seems appropriate here.  There's a number of chickens which the OP has already counted, despite only having seen eggs so far.

 

Also, I broadly agree with this;

 

As far as being the best thing that ever happened to him - I'd say that should probably be Ferrari hiring him as a test driver. He was on his way to relative mediocrity before that. This led to Massa getting a race seat in 2006, where he then spent three consecutive seasons in absolutely topline cars. How many drivers get that opportunity in their lifetime?

But yes, its probably the best(and luckiest) thing to happen to him recently.

 

I personally think Massa is a spent force.  It could be that he has suffered badly as a result of being Alonso's teammate and the move will allow him to release his ability once more, but I think more likely he simply isn't good enough.  I am happy to be proved wrong by the end of the season, especially since a resurgent Williams would be the highlight of the decade for me.



#14 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 13:54

I think its a good move by Massa and I hope we see him somewhere back to be competitive. He's back on a level playing field now too so I think it is his time to shine and I really hope he does :)



#15 noikeee

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:06

My opinion on Massa over the last few years has been posted a few times already - he's got quite a severe case of lack of motivation. I doubt the accident took any of his speed, but the slow realization he couldn't keep up with Alonso culminating in "Fernando is faster then you" did. The pattern from 2011 to 2013 was obvious: nowhere near Alonso early/mid season, sometimes pathetically so, then when he came in danger of being sacked, suddenly magically he could outqualify Fernando once in a while, keep up with him during most of the race then finish only 2 or 3 places behind him instead of 6 or 7 or worse.

 

In this light I've got no doubt a career roll of the dice that went his way will cheer him up, and bring back the best of him. If the Williams is half as good as it seemed in testing, we'll see the best of him again (or if not the best of him, something close to that) as long as it's competitive. My question is what happens if Williams progressively falls back during the season as I expect... I wouldn't really fancy the chances of Massa remaining motivated then.

 

A much more interesting issue to me is if this season will make or break Valtteri Bottas' career. I remain in the fence about him - there's obvious competence there, the strong junior series record, the team's faith in him, the seemingly positive atittude and lack of mistakes are all impressive, but, allowing for the awful performance of the car last year, I really wasn't fully convinced about his speed vs Maldonado. I wonder if this chance isn't coming a bit too soon for him. I remember Hulkenberg's case, he also wasn't all that impressive in his rookie season for Williams bar that one day in Interlagos, but now 4 years later few doubt he's the real deal or at least a strong, much improved driver. Drivers these days with the lack of testing need time to develop and I'm not sure Bottas has had enough time to be rushed into the limelight, even if a competitive car hardly ever hurts anyone's career.



#16 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:24

The best thing that ever happened to Massa was joining Ferrari in 2006. He had championship-contending cars, he goofed up. He would get nothing as good. He proved he is mentally weak by not being able to compete against Alonso. It is one thing to be beaten, but Massa lost it mentally. He has always been like that even in races - eg: Singapore 2008 driving after dropping down the field.



#17 Cacarella

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:32

If at any point this season I see Felipe Massa's Williams outqualify Fernando Alonso, I'll immediately take Massa's qualy time, subtract about a half second from it,

and know that that's where the Williams would have been had Alonso been driving it.

 

Poor Frank...



#18 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:41

'Poor Frank' has the drivers that his recent cars deserve.  Once he is back performing towards the front of the grid, assuming he can do that, then he'll be able to attact a wider range of drivers to the team.

 

In the circumstances, Ithik he's actually done well to have got himself a benchmark in Massa with whom he can compare Bottas.



#19 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:46

If at any point this season I see Felipe Massa's Williams outqualify Fernando Alonso, I'll immediately take Massa's qualy time, subtract about a half second from it,

and know that that's where the Williams would have been had Alonso been driving it.

 

Poor Frank...

 

No, you have to add half a second, or since when is Alonso a qualifying master? He had his troubles to beat poor old Massa last year (in qualifying) 



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#20 Cacarella

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:49

Maybe his recent cars, but if this car is finally a race winner/championship contender then I'd say 'Poor Frank' - finally built the dream car and has Massa in it.

Are people forgetting that this is the same Massa that only got around 30% of his teammates points in cars that came within the last race of winning two championships?

 

Otherwise, I agree, at least he doesn't have Pastor in it anymore.



#21 Cacarella

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 14:52

No, you have to add half a second, or since when is Alonso a qualifying master? He had his troubles to beat poor old Massa last year (in qualifying) 

 

Edit: I cahnged my mind about responding to this post. This isn't an Alonso vs. Massa thread so I won't go there.


Edited by Cacarella, 04 March 2014 - 14:59.


#22 redviper22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:00

No, you have to add half a second, or since when is Alonso a qualifying master? He had his troubles to beat poor old Massa last year (in qualifying) 

 

Add half a second? When did Massa ever outqualify Alonso by half a second? Over their 4 years as teammates, Alonso destroyed him in qualifying.


Edited by redviper22, 04 March 2014 - 15:01.


#23 MikeV1987

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:06

He's always had the speed, he just makes too many errors. I don't expect this season to be any different than the last four and again he's going to have his hands full with his team mate.


Edited by MikeV1987, 04 March 2014 - 15:08.


#24 Dunc

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:10

I think Massa's mental state hasn't been great since 2009.  Firstly the accident and then being beaten by Alonso just destroyed him. 

 

He's clearly the number one at Williams, which should do his state of mind a lot of good and hopefully enable him to perform better.  However, it has been five years since he really looked like a title contender, that's a long time.  Patrese restored his reputation when he moved to Williams in 1989, so I suppose it's not impossible Massa could do the same but I do question whether he can challenge for a WDC again, even if the Williams is good enough for it.  But I would love to be proved wrong.  

 

My wishes for the season are to see Button, Hamilton and the Williams drivers fight it out for the title and to see Perez get FI's first win.  Not too much to ask really!



#25 MirNyet

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:11

Best thing that happened to him? Doubt considering he spent so long at Ferrari, but its a good move from Ferrari as Williams is looking like it could have its best year for a while. They've really put effort into their technical department and their car is showing it. I expect Massa this year to be nibbling away at the heals of the Ferrari's which may just suit him fine :)



#26 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:14

Add half a second? When did Massa ever outqualify Alonso by half a second? Over their 4 years as teammates, Alonso destroyed him in qualifying.

 

It was my response to take away half a second in Alonso's case.. given the fact Williams will be good this year, Massa is a good qualifier, if the confident is right, it would be really unlikely that Alonso would be half a sec faster. 



#27 redviper22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:20

It was my response to take away half a second in Alonso's case.. given the fact Williams will be good this year, Massa is a good qualifier, if the confident is right, it would be really unlikely that Alonso would be half a sec faster. 

 

Well it was an incorrect response.



#28 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:21

Well it was an incorrect response.

 

check your irony meter   :wave:


Edited by 1Devil1, 04 March 2014 - 15:21.


#29 redviper22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:28

check your irony meter   :wave:

 

Good one.

 

You do realise that Alonso outqualifed Massa 75% of the time, and there have been multiple occasions where Alonso has outqualified Massa by more than half a second.



#30 redviper22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:32

“I’ve talked with Felipe several times this year already,” Spaniard Alonso is quoted by Brazil’s Globo.

“He is happy, Williams has so much history in Formula 1 and is not just any team, and they have had a very strong pre-season,” he noted.

“It is very positive because now they can be fighting. Felipe will definitely be a strong rival this year,” added Alonso. (GMM)



Read more http://grandprix247....Grand Prix 247)


#31 Anderis

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:32

In 2013 alone, Massa was really close to Alonso in terms of qualifying. 8-11 head-to-head if I'm not mistaken.



#32 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:39

Would be nice to see Massa win a race again, it's been quite a while for him.



#33 Longtimefan

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:40

But nobody - and I mean nobody - on the grid deserves that accolade more than Felipe Massa.

Don't forget, Massa was WDC. ...albeit for a few seconds, until Glock handed it to Lewis.

Yes, Massa has struggled when the car is poor but personally I think Hockenheim 2010 did him most damage, his sprit was totally crushed that day.

I am far far from a Williams fan. ..quite the opposite really, but I wish him well and hope we see the true Massa.

Edited by Longtimefan, 04 March 2014 - 15:41.


#34 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:41

In 2013 alone, Massa was really close to Alonso in terms of qualifying. 8-11 head-to-head if I'm not mistaken.

 

I did speak about 2013, so don't know, what we are talking about, I know Alonso out qualified Massa occasionally with more than .5 seconds. Nevertheless, it was in a bad Ferrari and before 2013. We have seen it multiple times, give the guys a good car and the gap will be much smaller (Schumacher/Barrichello) , if the Williams is good, I think it's an exaggeration to think Alonso would put a gap like that every week between him and Massa. Race is a different story.. 



#35 CHIUNDA

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 15:42

F1 fans have been conspicuously preemptive this winter be it when they are dooming the redbull, bigging up the Merc or declaring the new cars and rules favour Nico or Jenson. So as regards Massa and Williams and all the excitement the testing has brought forth I will take a wait and see attitude.

#36 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:01

F1 fans have been conspicuously preemptive this winter be it when they are dooming the redbull, bigging up the Merc or declaring the new cars and rules favour Nico or Jenson. So as regards Massa and Williams and all the excitement the testing has brought forth I will take a wait and see attitude.

Where's the fun in that?  Make a commitment one way or the other and you can be hero or zero.



#37 Lights

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:16

Some drivers are really lucky in finding themselves in solid machinery throughout their career. Massa never really had a reason to complain based on what he was worth.



#38 Jon83

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:21

My opinion on Massa over the last few years has been posted a few times already - he's got quite a severe case of lack of motivation. I doubt the accident took any of his speed, but the slow realization he couldn't keep up with Alonso culminating in "Fernando is faster then you" did. The pattern from 2011 to 2013 was obvious: nowhere near Alonso early/mid season, sometimes pathetically so, then when he came in danger of being sacked, suddenly magically he could outqualify Fernando once in a while, keep up with him during most of the race then finish only 2 or 3 places behind him instead of 6 or 7 or worse.

 

In this light I've got no doubt a career roll of the dice that went his way will cheer him up, and bring back the best of him. If the Williams is half as good as it seemed in testing, we'll see the best of him again (or if not the best of him, something close to that) as long as it's competitive. My question is what happens if Williams progressively falls back during the season as I expect... I wouldn't really fancy the chances of Massa remaining motivated then.

 

A much more interesting issue to me is if this season will make or break Valtteri Bottas' career. I remain in the fence about him - there's obvious competence there, the strong junior series record, the team's faith in him, the seemingly positive atittude and lack of mistakes are all impressive, but, allowing for the awful performance of the car last year, I really wasn't fully convinced about his speed vs Maldonado. I wonder if this chance isn't coming a bit too soon for him. I remember Hulkenberg's case, he also wasn't all that impressive in his rookie season for Williams bar that one day in Interlagos, but now 4 years later few doubt he's the real deal or at least a strong, much improved driver. Drivers these days with the lack of testing need time to develop and I'm not sure Bottas has had enough time to be rushed into the limelight, even if a competitive car hardly ever hurts anyone's career.

 

I agree with this - you've practically written my reply to this topic :up:



#39 froggy22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:28

Thinking about Massa's career, would this be the first time he will be seen as the "No 1" driver in a team? Will be interesting to see how he handles that.



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#40 Gorma

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:39

Massa can be very quick when everything suits him perfectly, but when that does not happen it's midfield calling.



#41 senna da silva

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:42

Thinking about Massa's career, would this be the first time he will be seen as the "No 1" driver in a team? Will be interesting to see how he handles that.

 

He's going to have to beat Bottas consistently if the first few races to earn that title.



#42 charly0418

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 16:52

Some drivers are really lucky in finding themselves in solid machinery throughout their career. Massa never really had a reason to complain based on what he was worth.

 

BAM, truth spoken



#43 Vesuvius

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 17:11

he will do well and the change will do good for him. I'm happy if he does well...but I think he will have to raise his game in races...in qualifying he has always veen good but on races he has sucked recently after first one or two stints. I excpect Bottas to beat him as Bottas did look like a faster one during testing but that will be seen.



#44 Okyo

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 17:18

Thinking about Massa's career, would this be the first time he will be seen as the "No 1" driver in a team? Will be interesting to see how he handles that.

He seemed to be considered as the leading driver in 2008 late parts of the season and in 2009 until the accident. Seemed fine to me, heck even happy and comfortable. Did all he should have done when it mattered, just luck wasn't there in races like Singapore and Brasil.


Edited by Okyo, 04 March 2014 - 17:19.


#45 1Devil1

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 17:48

He seemed to be considered as the leading driver in 2008 late parts of the season and in 2009 until the accident. Seemed fine to me, heck even happy and comfortable. Did all he should have done when it mattered, just luck wasn't there in races like Singapore and Brasil.

I think his last years, let people forget that on is day Massa was super fast, give him the machine, he blew Raikkonen out of the water, was close to Schumacher, since Alonso took over, confidence or pre-accident, you can choose, he was never the same. For myself, Massa would be in same category  as Hill or Villeneuve with more luck, he never drove a car that was that dominant, his car was on pair with McLaren or slightly better and he nearly won it against two world champions (Raikkonnen and Hamilton). Massa belonged to the best drivers in 2007/2008 - people tend to forget.



#46 froggy22

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 18:09

He seemed to be considered as the leading driver in 2008 late parts of the season and in 2009 until the accident. Seemed fine to me, heck even happy and comfortable. Did all he should have done when it mattered, just luck wasn't there in races like Singapore and Brasil.

Yeah, i was thinking 2008/09 were as close as he got to the "Lead" driver tag, but I feel Ferrari still looked at him and Kimi as equals whereas now Felipe has a massive amount of experience over Bottas and is coming from a top team. It wouldn't surprise me if Felipe was leading Williams to begin with. As good as Bottas may be he's still only got a years worth of experience and is still young so i don't think he's in a position to lead the team.

 

Anyway, i'll definitely be looking closely at Massa this season, things are looking good for him atm.



#47 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 18:18

Massa definitely put one over on Raikkonen. No doubt about that. But that told me more about Raikkonen than it did Massa, in my estimation.

And I personally feel that Ferrari built two massively good cars in 2007 and 2008 that both should have won titles fairly comfortably. It was only made a close contest because McLaren had Alonso and Lewis for 2007 and then Lewis for 2008(look where Heikki was in 2008 for an example of what a normal driver could do in it). Everybody who doubts that merely needs to remind themselves how much of a difference somebody like Alonso and Lewis can make. I think if pretty much *anybody else* had been in those Mclarens, it would have been mostly a Ferrari walkover.

Anyways, I'm sure Massa's in for a good season. He's done nothing to deserve such luck, but whatever. Reminder #1250128 that F1 is not, and never will be, a fair sport.

#48 sennafan24

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 18:24

Massa belonged to the best drivers in 2007/2008 - people tend to forget.

People can overlook how bad an elite teammate can make you. I was looking into some stuff about Gehard Berger last week, and Massa came to mind.

 

In the 3 years Senna was teammates with Berger, when both finished Senna finished ahead of Berger by a score of 18-7. Senna made Berger look pretty bad. However, before this Berger when teammates with Nigel Mansell, he beat Mansell a whopping 2-0 when both finished (yes, that is how unreliable the 1989 Ferrari was). In his twilight years he also had enough left to match John Alesi, as when they were teammates from 1993-1997, when both finished they tied 14-14.

 

Now, what does this mean for Massa?

 

It means that it could be a case of like Berger with Senna, a great driver made him look worse than he was. Robert Kubica thinks this was the case, so it is not something I have come up with on my own.  The facts are before Alonso was his teammate, Massa did pretty well. I found he finished ahead of Kimi 16 times when both finished as teammates, while Kimi could only manage to finish 14 times ahead of Massa when both finished.

 

Over a 2 and half year period, that is very impressive when you consider how well Kimi has done against his previous teammates. Stats do need context, but the large timeframe provides enough findings between Massa and Kimi that the data is likely to be meaningful, in this case it shows that Massa was a match for Kimi in their time as teammates.

 

Bottas is still very young, and has shown serious potential, but people could be underestimating Massa. Away from Alonso, he could spring a surprise. 


Edited by sennafan24, 04 March 2014 - 18:26.


#49 f1RacingForever

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 18:26

If Williams are quick then yes but i don't think they will be. Having Bottas as opposed to Alonso as your teammate is always an advantage.  ;) I wish him the best though.



#50 f1RacingForever

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 18:28

Massa can be very quick when everything suits him perfectly, but when that does not happen it's midfield calling.

This pretty much sums up my opinion of him as well.