78 replies to this topic

[SpaMaster]

Massa definitely put one over on Raikkonen. No doubt about that. But that told me more about Raikkonen than it did Massa, in my estimation.

And I personally feel that Ferrari built two massively good cars in 2007 and 2008 that both should have won titles fairly comfortably. It was only made a close contest because McLaren had Alonso and Lewis for 2007 and then Lewis for 2008(look where Heikki was in 2008 for an example of what a normal driver could do in it). Everybody who doubts that merely needs to remind themselves how much of a difference somebody like Alonso and Lewis can make. I think if pretty much *anybody else* had been in those Mclarens, it would have been mostly a Ferrari walkover.

Anyways, I'm sure Massa's in for a good season. He's done nothing to deserve such luck, but whatever. Reminder #1250128 that F1 is not, and never will be, a fair sport.

What you are saying is Raikkonen would get destroyed by Alonso the same way Massa got destroyed by Alonso. Otherwise, you would be wrong about Massa.

[thegamer23]

Time will tell. 
It certainly looks like a solid move at the moment. 

Edited by thegamer23, 04 March 2014 - 18:31.

[OSX]

Will Massa being sacked from Ferrari and joining Williams turn out to be the best thing that could ever happen to him?
Williams looks to be on course for a strong season, having a bulletproof car with some pace in it as well. It looks all but certain that he'll be in front of Alonso's Ferrari for at least the first part of the season.

I'm looking forward to seeing a rejuvinated Massa fighting at the top end, beating his old employer

Personally I do not think that the post-accident Massa will be able to beat Bottas in the intra-team battle. He is still quick over one lap but over a race distance he's pretty mediocre. But he is without a doubt going to be a lot happier at Williams than at Ferrari where he was reduced to being Alonso's lapdog.

[Risil]

Even smarter than Lewis's move to Mercedes. Probably not going to earn Felipe as much money though.

Edited by Risil, 04 March 2014 - 19:30.

[ZionLH]

Personally I do not think that the post-accident Massa will be able to beat Bottas in the intra-team battle. He is still quick over one lap but over a race distance he's pretty mediocre. But he is without a doubt going to be a lot happier at Williams than at Ferrari where he was reduced to being Alonso's lapdog.

Well said and maybe the confidence will come back and shift his mindset into a positive state . I think his driving style seems suited to the Williams aswell you often hear how hard the handling on the ferrari's are from previous years. Also he has got smedley with him which is a great bonus. Hope he has a good year anyway 

[DutchQuicksilver]

I think he'll be the surprise of the season. Will probably beat Bottas on points due to his experience (in a similar way to Barrichello who beat Hulkenberg in 2010) and finish in the top 7 of the championship. Would be nice to see him get a win and a good chance of that is of course in Bahrain where he always excels.

[garagetinkerer]

I think he'll be the surprise of the season. Will probably beat Bottas on points due to his experience (in a similar way to Barrichello who beat Hulkenberg in 2010) and finish in the top 7 of the championship. Would be nice to see him get a win and a good chance of that is of course in Bahrain where he always excels.

Pretty sure if Massa gets a car to his liking, he could surprise a lot of people in F1... considered too good for Massa to take on, like he did in 2008. He is a confidence driver though... hopefully Williams will be a more positive environment for him. This is not to criticise Ferrari, but it seemingly wasn't working for both Ferrari and Massa.

 

I think that Bottas may be a bit shaded for that matter by Massa, which may not end looking good on his resume.

[bub]

Nothing confirmed yet but the Williams looks competitive. If that turns out to be the case then it's definitely a great move for Massa because he's lucky to get any drive considering the competition for seats and how bad he performed compared to Alonso. To end up in what many predict is potentially a top 2 car ahead of McLaren, RBR and Ferrari would be amazing for him. I still think however, there is a good chance he will once again be beaten by his teammate over the season because while I think post accident Massa still has talent and speed, I have little faith in his ability to maintain a high level of performance over an entire season.

Edited by bub, 04 March 2014 - 20:19.

[jjcale]

Massa is all about confidence and emotion.... if properly managed he can be top class .... on a given weekend. 

[Hanzo]

I am surprised, a lot of people mention his talent and speed, but no one says nothing about his mistakes. I can not think of another driver with so many "unforced errors", too often he would spin in the circuit or goes wide in a corner without no car putting pressure on him, just mistakes out of nowhere... And that was not Ferrari or "being Alonso's lapdog" fault. I think he is quite likeable, a family man and all of that, but not a great driver.  The fact that we can agree that his move to Williams is a very good one is more based in how good the car looks rather than the team being a perfect place where he can show his  true skills and bring extra "things" to Williams.

[Seanspeed]

What you are saying is Raikkonen would get destroyed by Alonso the same way Massa got destroyed by Alonso. Otherwise, you would be wrong about Massa.

If you read my first post, I do allow that Massa is at his best when he's at the front in top machinery. So it depends. I think if the Ferrari's of the past 4 years had been better, Massa would have proven a bit closer to Alonso. But since they weren't, he floundered.

I do think Alonso will beat Kimi though, yes. Not guaranteed and it'd be great if it was the other way around or at least a real close fight, but that's what I think is most likely to happen.

[speedmaster]

I see him getting upstaged by Bottas quite often this season.

We will see.... I think you are bound to a surprise.... Days of Schummi and Alonso are over for him and I think he will do very well if Williams can hold its present performance...

[speedmaster]

That entirely depends on his performances. Until we see it in the races there's no way to know whether he back on top of his game or is the same underperforming, sporadically fast but wildly inconsistent driver that makes rookie errors that we've seen over the last 4 years.

"That entirely depends on his performances."  And I've never thought about it...  sorry couldn't resist...

[ollebompa]

Massa on the top step would bring a tear to my eye, thats for shure.

Edited by ollebompa, 04 March 2014 - 21:22.

[garagetinkerer]

Massa on the top step would bring a tear to my eye, thats for shure.

You will not be alone... the whole of Brazil will be shedding tears of joy... "for sure!" Heck, i'll be all tears and sobs There was this warm gooey feeling which came over me as i was writing the earlier bit. I'd love for him to win the WDC. Given some of the prior posts, then the forums here seemingly will be a lot of fun too.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 04 March 2014 - 21:27.

[speedmaster]

Don't forget, Massa was WDC. ...albeit for a few seconds, until Glock handed it to Lewis.

Yes, Massa has struggled when the car is poor but personally I think Hockenheim 2010 did him most damage, his sprit was totally crushed that day.

I am far far from a Williams fan. ..quite the opposite really, but I wish him well and hope we see the true Massa.

Wouldn't go that farther... but the guy is really underrated due to be in the same team as Schummi and Alonso... With Kimi was quite obvious he wasn't that bad..... 

[Dzeidzei]

I think its a good move by Massa and I hope we see him somewhere back to be competitive. He's back on a level playing field now too so I think it is his time to shine and I really hope he does

Well, more like a lucky move. Everyone who had to switch to another team had to gamble. Who thought Williams was the one seat people would want now?

Felipe is a nice guy, and he will shine. At certain qualis he´ll be great. But he´ll get beaten by his teammate.

[evo]

First time in a long time (ever in F1?) where he is the undisputed no.1 (for the time being at least). That can only play to this confidence thing..

 

Just remember this is also the team where Frentzen crumbled prior to 99 in the Jordan..

[Jimisgod]

Bottas will beat him.

Bottas kind of beat Maldonado who has been far more impressive than Massa since 2011 in a lesser car. He actually won a race, which Massa couldn't manage in championship challenging cars.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

I think Bottas will beat him, Valtteri just looks like he has a lot more potential whereas Massa is inconsistent at best in recent years, granted he was number 2 to Alonso but even so.

[paulogman]

Staying at ferrari would still be the best "move" for massa.

no matter how good the williams is this year, ferrari are a stronger team. still too many new faces in new places at williams, although I think Claire is marking out her territory and setting up some very good opportunities for the future.

IF and this is a big IF the williams is at the sharp end from the et go and can maintain it, the massa will have been very fortunate to have landed in the williams at the right time.

it can never be considered an inspired decision because he really had no other place to go from ferrari.

sticking my neck out here, but I won't be surprised to see massa get on the podium and score very good points.

he might even beat alonso a few times early in the season.

within the team, I think he will be a great benchmark for bottas. but bottas is his own man and will do well this season and beat massa as often as he is behind.

if massa has a strong personality we will find out this season. 

[Astro]

I think Bottas will beat him, Valtteri just looks like he has a lot more potential whereas Massa is inconsistent at best in recent years, granted he was number 2 to Alonso but even so.

 

Bottas may have talent, but he lacks a strong reference. Massa has all the experience in his favour. He has been paired to some of the biggest names in F1 and I am sure he has learned a lot from them (e.g. it was a steep curve to match Alonso in qualifying, but he finally did it). On the other hand, the new engines may play against Massa, who I don't consider a fast learner, and will offer Bottas a good chance to show his talent.

[Boxerevo]

What you are saying is Raikkonen would get destroyed by Alonso the same way Massa got destroyed by Alonso. Otherwise, you would be wrong about Massa.

Raikkonen would probably get beat easier that time (2007/2008) than now,because Kimi had superior race pace than Massa in many races but was trapped in traffic.

 

Plenty of defeats by Kimi came by inferior qualifying position,saturday performance was crucial.

 

I don't see those problems now since his coming back and regulation changes (DRS+KERS),even with poor qualifying he can come back.

 

I hope Massa can win at least one,will be good to the fella.

Edited by Boxerevo, 05 March 2014 - 06:32.

[Dzeidzei]

Massa definitely put one over on Raikkonen. No doubt about that. But that told me more about Raikkonen than it did Massa, in my estimation.

And I personally feel that Ferrari built two massively good cars in 2007 and 2008 that both should have won titles fairly comfortably. It was only made a close contest because McLaren had Alonso and Lewis for 2007 and then Lewis for 2008(look where Heikki was in 2008 for an example of what a normal driver could do in it). Everybody who doubts that merely needs to remind themselves how much of a difference somebody like Alonso and Lewis can make. I think if pretty much *anybody else* had been in those Mclarens, it would have been mostly a Ferrari walkover.

Anyways, I'm sure Massa's in for a good season. He's done nothing to deserve such luck, but whatever. Reminder #1250128 that F1 is not, and never will be, a fair sport.

 

A lot of illogical assumptions, but probably no use to argue about them.

 

What needs to be said about Felipe is that his problem seems to be his mental strength, or lack of it. In a fast car leading the pack not a prob and he would deliver. But after his accident in Hungary we do not and will never know if his natural speed ever came back. I dont think it did.

 

But its not fair to rate drivers who are given a clear 2nd driver status. Like Seanspeed said, f1 is not a fair sport.

[Nustang70]

My opinion on Massa over the last few years has been posted a few times already - he's got quite a severe case of lack of motivation. I doubt the accident took any of his speed, but the slow realization he couldn't keep up with Alonso culminating in "Fernando is faster then you" did. The pattern from 2011 to 2013 was obvious: nowhere near Alonso early/mid season, sometimes pathetically so, then when he came in danger of being sacked, suddenly magically he could outqualify Fernando once in a while, keep up with him during most of the race then finish only 2 or 3 places behind him instead of 6 or 7 or worse.

 

In this light I've got no doubt a career roll of the dice that went his way will cheer him up, and bring back the best of him. If the Williams is half as good as it seemed in testing, we'll see the best of him again (or if not the best of him, something close to that) as long as it's competitive. My question is what happens if Williams progressively falls back during the season as I expect... I wouldn't really fancy the chances of Massa remaining motivated then.

 

A much more interesting issue to me is if this season will make or break Valtteri Bottas' career. I remain in the fence about him - there's obvious competence there, the strong junior series record, the team's faith in him, the seemingly positive atittude and lack of mistakes are all impressive, but, allowing for the awful performance of the car last year, I really wasn't fully convinced about his speed vs Maldonado. I wonder if this chance isn't coming a bit too soon for him. I remember Hulkenberg's case, he also wasn't all that impressive in his rookie season for Williams bar that one day in Interlagos, but now 4 years later few doubt he's the real deal or at least a strong, much improved driver. Drivers these days with the lack of testing need time to develop and I'm not sure Bottas has had enough time to be rushed into the limelight, even if a competitive car hardly ever hurts anyone's career.

I disagree with this, although it does seem to be the prevailing opinion.  At least since 2009, I don't believe Williams has truly exhibited this symptom.  Force India has.  Sauber, perhaps, has.  Williams, though, has done a remarkable job of keeping up in the development race with respect to the mid to upper-mid field.  Williams biggest weaknesses of the past five years have been abysmal strategies, flawed initial designs, and drivers.  They've made a tidy job of keeping up in development through the season.  Of course, they haven't been pitted against front-runners for most of that time (although the 2012 Williams was still just as capable of top-5 finishes at the end of the season as it was early on), so perhaps their ability to keep up with front-runners will fall short.  

 

Massa's move to Williams might not pay off for reasons that others have pointed out, but the threat of falling backward down the grid certainly isn't at the forefront.  

Edited by Nustang70, 05 March 2014 - 08:47.

[Schuttelberg]

Simply put, YES!

 

A lot of people say that 'you make your own luck in life!'

 

Well, if Massa had been offered a Ferrari drive, he would have taken it. As fate would have it, he's made a good choice after being booted out. This is where 'luck' comes in. I really do believe that Williams are on par with Mercedes and can truly challenge for a win at Melbourne. I also think that Grosjean, Hulkenberg & Ricciardo are all better drivers than Massa. But, you need to be at the right place at the right time. Massa is.

 

I like Felipe, truly nice lad, but I'm afraid he's past it. However, that Williams looks really good and if he beats Bottas, people will go about claiming he's top draw again. His time at Ferrari tells me that he's far from a top F1 driver though. 

[CrashPad]

Really, really hope to see him win once more 

And Bottas too....many times, if possible 

[redviper22]

 

But its not fair to rate drivers who are given a clear 2nd driver status. Like Seanspeed said, f1 is not a fair sport.

 

Massa only has himself to blame for that. In 2010 and 2012 he ended up having to play the number 2 because he ended up being so far behind the championship leader. They were given equal opportunities at the beginning of the season (see races like Australia 2010 and China 2011).

[SpaMaster]

If you read my first post, I do allow that Massa is at his best when he's at the front in top machinery. So it depends. I think if the Ferrari's of the past 4 years had been better, Massa would have proven a bit closer to Alonso. But since they weren't, he floundered.

I do think Alonso will beat Kimi though, yes. Not guaranteed and it'd be great if it was the other way around or at least a real close fight, but that's what I think is most likely to happen.

Yeah, that means Alonso may not destroy Kimi like he did Massa, but would still beat him by a fair margin. That would still be interesting to watch. If he does not, you would still be wrong about Massa, and Raikkonen.