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Hamilton: "Maybe Felipe Massa will take the Williams to the front!"


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#101 redreni

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 17:55

I think what has affected felipe the most was the 2010 season. Even today he is still bitter about what happened in germany and even in singapore 2008. I think those things affect his head and even his driving. If it was some other driver like kimi they would have already forgotten about those things and moved on but massa still keeps on bringing those subjects up and sounds bitter. For such an emotional guy I think it has affected his driving. Then theres the accident and much spoken favouritism of alonso so is it really a wonder he didnt match up to alonso. There is no saying he would have matched alonso even if he was on top form but he would have made far less mistakes and been closer.

 

Also in years 2007, 2008 there was 2 top teams and the differences were bigger. Even if you had a bad race you might still end up on podium. After the reg changes there was no room for errors and bad stints easily ruined your race. And to me massa has always been average when he has been in traffic or otherwise have had some misfortunes. Drivers like alonso, kimi, vettel and other top tiers easily adapt to those situations but massa pretty often seems to lose the plot.

 

If williams indeed is a title contender I wouldnt be surprised if he upped his game. But in my opinion if someones going to fight for the title with williams it will be bottas. It amazes me how bottas is still under so many people's radar.

 

2010 does seem to stick in his craw. You'd think, given time, he would come to realise it was not an unreasonable thing for the team to do. You could argue, of course, that it wasn't allowed under the regulations at the time, and I'm sure some would argue Ferrari weren't given a serious enough penalty for that, but that's a separate issue to the one Massa appears to have, namely that he wasn't treated fairly by his team. I strongly disagree. Okay, the points gap wasn't that big between him and Alonso, but it was enough to mean he had no realistic chance of winning the title whereas Alonso had a realistic chance, albeit still an outside bet. That alone was reason enough for the team to want to maximise Alonso's points rather than Massa's.

 

Furthermore all the indications were that, without any intervention from the team, the points gap between Alonso and Massa was only likely to widen further as the season wore on. Even in Germany, Alonso was half a second faster in qualifying, which is a huge margin, and it wasn't even as if Massa had Alonso's pace in the race - he just had track position because Alonso had a poor start, so Alonso couldn't use the pace that he had. There was no reason to think Massa, had he been allowed to win in Germany, was likely to make any further inrodes at all into Alonso's points lead over him during the remainder of the season, let alone overhaul him, let alone challenge the Mclaren and Red Bull drivers for the title. Alonso was Ferrari's only realistic shot at winning the WDC so why on earth should they compromise that for anybody? If you want your team to give you an equal chance even when it's likely to compromise your teammate's title bid, you have to give them a reason to think it would be worth their while to do so, and Massa failed to do that. He should have looked at himself rather than blaming the team for his own shortcomings.



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#102 ZZei

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 18:20

2010 does seem to stick in his craw. You'd think, given time, he would come to realise it was not an unreasonable thing for the team to do. You could argue, of course, that it wasn't allowed under the regulations at the time, and I'm sure some would argue Ferrari weren't given a serious enough penalty for that, but that's a separate issue to the one Massa appears to have, namely that he wasn't treated fairly by his team. I strongly disagree. Okay, the points gap wasn't that big between him and Alonso, but it was enough to mean he had no realistic chance of winning the title whereas Alonso had a realistic chance, albeit still an outside bet. That alone was reason enough for the team to want to maximise Alonso's points rather than Massa's.

 

Furthermore all the indications were that, without any intervention from the team, the points gap between Alonso and Massa was only likely to widen further as the season wore on. Even in Germany, Alonso was half a second faster in qualifying, which is a huge margin, and it wasn't even as if Massa had Alonso's pace in the race - he just had track position because Alonso had a poor start, so Alonso couldn't use the pace that he had. There was no reason to think Massa, had he been allowed to win in Germany, was likely to make any further inrodes at all into Alonso's points lead over him during the remainder of the season, let alone overhaul him, let alone challenge the Mclaren and Red Bull drivers for the title. Alonso was Ferrari's only realistic shot at winning the WDC so why on earth should they compromise that for anybody? If you want your team to give you an equal chance even when it's likely to compromise your teammate's title bid, you have to give them a reason to think it would be worth their while to do so, and Massa failed to do that. He should have looked at himself rather than blaming the team for his own shortcomings.

I am not arguing about whether the call was right or not. Thats an all other thread and I think it has been discussed to death already  ;)

What I'm saying is that massa clearly hasnt got over it yet, just like he hasnt got over his loss in 2008. You're right, one would think massa would have gotten over these things, but I just read an interview where he was saying maybe he should have acted differently in germany 2010.

We'll see if changing teams will finally make him think more about what's now and what was then.

 

E: One could say, in the long run the decision was wrong, as alonso didnt win the title though coming close and massas confidence was well, if not shred to pieces, at least not set to an all time high.


Edited by ZZei, 10 March 2014 - 18:25.


#103 eronrules

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 18:39

why does this warrant it's own thread???  :confused:



#104 redreni

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 21:02


I just read an interview where he was saying maybe he should have acted differently in germany 2010.
 
 
Yeah, he should have! He should have let Alonso through the first time Smedley gave him the call rather than waiting until the 7th or 8th time by which time the message had been repeated so many times, and was being delivered in such impossible-to-miss fashion, that it could not escape the attention of the chap who selects the team radio snipets for broadcast on television. And he should have tried to make his manoever a bit less obvious by, for example, running wide in a manner that could be passed off as accidental, rather than just failing to accelerate normally out of a corner. Maybe then there wouldn't have been such an enormous shitstorm about it.
 
I really find his attitude to this issue disappointing. He ultimately, eventually, did the right thing in Germany in 2010 but he did it grudgingly and executed it poorly and got the team in trouble. In contrast there was nothing grudging about the impeccable way Ferrari treated him when he came back after being injured, sticking with him and standing by him and believing in his ability even when he was performing very badly. F1 can be a brutal business at times and some teams, if there was doubt as to whether a driver's injury was affecting his performance, might have just decided he was damaged goods and let him go. He's had some really tough breaks during his career, notably the accident in Hungary and his misfortune in Brasil when he lost the title. Those things were not the fault of anybody at Ferrari, and it's a real shame that he appears to want to blame them for his lack of results in recent years.
 
Even so I wish him all the best at Williams. I'd love to see them back at the front, and I think you'd have to have a heart of stone not to want to see Massa on the top step of an F1 podium again.


#105 F1 Mike

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 22:47

he probably blames the team for knocking his confidence in his own ability to beat his team mate...

 

and I think that would be perfectly reasonable if he did



#106 redreni

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 23:07

he probably blames the team for knocking his confidence in his own ability to beat his team mate...

 

and I think that would be perfectly reasonable if he did

 

On the contrary, that race should have boosted his confidence because it showed he was probably capable of beating Alonso (although we don't know for sure that Massa would have won if they'd been allowed to race). If anything would have knocked Massa's confidence in his own ability, surely it would have been the dozens of times Alonso beat him without receiving any help from anybody?



#107 saudoso

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 23:25

No, it just kills the guy's spirit. You know that from that point on if you are leading your teamate you will have to let him pass.

 

I just think he wasted too much time at Ferrari. Had he started looking around during 2010 he would have found a good seat.



#108 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:48

No, it just kills the guy's spirit. You know that from that point on if you are leading your teamate you will have to let him pass.

 

I just think he wasted too much time at Ferrari. Had he started looking around during 2010 he would have found a good seat.

Teams to drive for in 2011:

RBR: Webber and Vettel

McLaren: Button and Hamilton

Ferrari: Alonso and Massa

 

Where do you think he could have had gone? Webbo is a friend of Mateschitz, and infact he gave Webbo much more room than is afforded to a professional driver, so that seat wasn't going to be up for grabs. Even if it were, RBR has a driver development program, so that's properly out unless you were properly exceptional. Massa of 2010 was good, but not that good (whle it is cold, but it is the truth). McLaren had just signed Button a year ago, and Hamilton practically grew up in Woking. He was already at Ferrari, so where else he could have gone with better prospects. In a way, both Ferrari and Massa were stuck with each other at the time. Ferrari, while they were open to sign ups, didn't want a short term driver, and the driver they were aiming at, he wasn't available and Vettel still isn't (Going forward, it would be interesting to see who would be able to lure Vettel away from RBR). McLaren opened up for 2010 but they were also looking at Vettel (confirmed by Whitmarsh), and then Button moved in who was a WDC and was a known factor.

 

All that said, i'm very happy for Felipe. He's in a good place (mentally), with a good car, and hopefully he will have better results. If he is upbeat, then i guess he may make life quite difficult for Bottas.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 11 March 2014 - 01:50.


#109 OvDrone

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:16

Maybe who?

 

 

 

I swear that Martini changes you.



#110 f1RacingForever

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:03

In a way I'm glad Massa is racing for Willaims this year. Once Bottas exposes him for good as the mediocre driver that he is, everyone who blames evil Ferrari for his poor performances the last few years can go jump in a lake. Yeah what happened in Germany was bullshit but some of you like to paint a very unrealistic picture. The excuses are getting old and tiresome now.



#111 garagetinkerer

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:11

In a way I'm glad Massa is racing for Willaims this year. Once Bottas exposes him for good as the mediocre driver that he is, everyone who blames evil Ferrari for his poor performances the last few years can go jump in a lake. Yeah what happened in Germany was bullshit but some of you like to paint a very unrealistic picture. The excuses are getting old and tiresome now.

With all due respect, if Massa does well will you be jumping into a lake? Pics or it didn't happen?

 

regards,

tifoso


Edited by garagetinkerer, 11 March 2014 - 03:12.


#112 George Costanza

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:12

In a way I'm glad Massa is racing for Willaims this year. Once Bottas exposes him for good as the mediocre driver that he is, everyone who blames evil Ferrari for his poor performances the last few years can go jump in a lake. Yeah what happened in Germany was bullshit but some of you like to paint a very unrealistic picture. The excuses are getting old and tiresome now.

 

Yeah, and if Massa beats Bottas? What's your explanation then?



#113 f1RacingForever

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:17

Yeah, and if Massa beats Bottas? What's your explanation then?

Evil mean Williams being unfair to poor Bottas of course. Or perhaps i might blame Massa for not being a good teammate :D  We'll see how the mood strikes me.



#114 f1RacingForever

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:18

With all due respect, if Massa does well will you be jumping into a lake? Pics or it didn't happen?

 

regards,

tifoso

If Massa does well i'll jump into a freezing lake naked in the middle of winter.



#115 meister

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:07

What do you mean it could work another way?  We are speaking of the past and so we can speak in facts. 

 

Massa had great performances to start, Alonso started a bit slower, but eventually caught up.  Massa's performance dropped off for some races and he fell back a few points, but he was back on it in Germany - until Ferrari closed him down with team orders.  After that Massa's performances tumbled to an all time low.  

 

 

 

You are posting fantasy. From the second race of 2010, Alonso was crushing Massa. 7 tenths of a lap faster in Australia, spun first lap, and caught him by lap 20. Malaysia, he was all over Massa despite having a broken gearbox. The only reason Massa was closer to Alonso on points early on was because of some mistakes from Fernando, but the huge performance gap was always there from the beginning, and claiming there was a performance drop off after Germany is pure fantasy, created by people like you to undermine Alonso's performances. if any does not believe me, just analyse the lap times between the Ferrari drivers from the start of the season. I am surprised everyone just accepted what you are saying as fact.



#116 meister

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:11

In my opinion, measuring a driver's performance in F1 with a teammate comparison is the least accurate measurement possible.  I challenge you to name an instance in which there was a no-excuse accurate measurement of racing between teammates.   

 

 

There is always a no excuse measurement between team mates, its called lap times and points. The only ones who makes excuses are the crowd who refuse to accept the results so make excuses. Saying team mate comparision is the least accurate measurement is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. Without a team mate nobody would ever know how much the driver is extracting from the car, and if the car is just slow or the driver. If massa had been the only Ferrari driver since 2010, nobody would be blaming him for under performing because nobody would know if the car was really that slow or not. That is why the team mate is the only and best measure. If you went to the paddock and make that statement you would be laughed at.


Edited by meister, 11 March 2014 - 07:29.


#117 meister

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:16

 

 

There is a significant drop off after Germany 2010 which we can only speculate the reasons behind (whether in general or in relation to Alonso), that is a given. Comes down to what you believe, or want to believe really.

. :up:

 

Not in 2010 there wasn't. He was a podium contender for the rest of the season and score 2. Of course his performances dropped off in following years because the Ferrari's got worse, and which is why Alonso's performances dropped off for the most part. It's not what you believe at all, its pretty evident fact, and very clear.

 

 

 

Regarding the dabate about whether Massa is any good anymore, surely anybody should be able to see from the last four years that he is nowhere near as consistent as he was. It's not just the fact that Alonso beat him. That could be taken as evidence either that Massa was slower after his accident or as evidence that Alonso is just faster than Massa and always has been. But neither hypothesis would explain why Alonso ran consistently at or near the front over the four year period and Massa was sometimes competitive with him, sometimes slightly slower, and other times would be completely hopeless. He was close to being lapped by Alonso on a number of occasions, especially near the start of 2012 when there were strong rumours he would be axed mid-season. Then in the races just before Monza and the expected driver announcement, Massa was suddenly back on the pace.

 

 

Massa NEVER was consistent. Has anyone bothered to actually look over his 2008 season which was his best year? He spun out of the first 2 races on his own, and his performances were all over the place and very inconsistent. The only reason he still looked pretty good was because his team mate was even more inconsistent and he had the best car. There are so many misconceptions being posted here and just accepted as fact. There was nothing ever wrong with Massa apart from not having the talent of Alonso. Great drivers are meant to outclass good drivers, and that is exactly what we saw. When Senna and Clark did it they were applauded for their genius, but when Alonso does it , everyone just looks for excuses, even the so called professional pundits. Its really pathetic.


Edited by meister, 11 March 2014 - 07:42.


#118 1Devil1

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:50

 

Mensch Meister, never heard of multiple is not allowed, we get it Massa is bad and inconsistent, and Alonso the master. All other opinions are pathetic :up:



#119 thiscocks

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:34

Given the choice I'd rather see a new team get their first glory than a formerly-great team get one more trophy, but either way I've got more faith in Bottas than Massa.

What new team would that be? Marussia?



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#120 redreni

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 13:25

No, it just kills the guy's spirit. You know that from that point on if you are leading your teamate you will have to let him pass.

 

I just think he wasted too much time at Ferrari. Had he started looking around during 2010 he would have found a good seat.

 

While Alonso was in the title fight and Massa wasn't, yes, but he wouldn't have had to be a genius to work that out on his own. There's no evidence Ferrari would have made him move over in all circumstances though, e.g. in the first race of the season, or in circumstances where Massa was mounting a credible title challenge. We never got to find out what would have happened in those circumstances, because Massa didn't perform well enough. And it's not as if he was competitve with Alonso before the team orders incident and then suddenly got dramtically worse afterwards - he was nearly always slower than Alonso all season (and, if we're being honest, over the whole four year period), including at Hockenheim where he was outqualified by half a second and then spent most of the race holding Alonso up and then, once he'd given up the lead, fell away dramtically.

 

The way a positive thinker would react to that situation is with determination to make sure that, the following year, he stayed in touch with Alonso and stayed in the title fight. Then the team orders issue would have resolved itself - Ferrari isn't in the business of issuing team orders to shoot themselves in the foot. They only do it when it's to their advantage in WDC terms. I honestly don't think they care which of their drivers wins the title as long as they win it. They celebrated just as much when they thought Massa had won the WDC as they did when Kimi won it. A driver can avoid having team orders issued against him by being involved in the title fight and/or level with or ahead of his teammate on points at any given point in the season.



#121 redreni

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 22:35

Massa NEVER was consistent. Has anyone bothered to actually look over his 2008 season which was his best year? He spun out of the first 2 races on his own, and his performances were all over the place and very inconsistent. The only reason he still looked pretty good was because his team mate was even more inconsistent and he had the best car. There are so many misconceptions being posted here and just accepted as fact. There was nothing ever wrong with Massa apart from not having the talent of Alonso. Great drivers are meant to outclass good drivers, and that is exactly what we saw. When Senna and Clark did it they were applauded for their genius, but when Alonso does it , everyone just looks for excuses, even the so called professional pundits. Its really pathetic.

 

If you're going to criticise people for running Alonso down, you might want to pick on somebody who doesn't rate him. Personally I rate him as the best driver in F1 bar nobody.

 

For several years prior to 2010 Massa's consistency relative to (a) his teammate and (b) the rest of the field, was considerably better than during the period 2010-2013. Kimi and Alonso are both pretty consistent benchmarks, in that their competitiveness doesn't tend to fluctuate wildly from one race to another.



#122 noikeee

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 22:37

why does this warrant it's own thread???  :confused:

 

I've been wondering that for 121 posts.



#123 fabr68

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 23:05

Would not surprise me if Massa starts to grab poles consistenly given the rumors about Williams are correct

#124 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 23:52

I remember years ago seeing an interview with Ron Dennis where he was saying the demoralising effect on the No2 driver was the big reason not to have a No1 policy.

 

There is lots of talk and evidence in sport that morale/confidence/self-belief is a huge factor, and I believe it.  And of course it was a running joke how much Felipe needed to be babied by Smedley, so we can imagine he'd be particularly susceptible to being undermined.  He's looked a lot more confident at Williams already I think. 

 

It would depend on the driver.  

 

For Massa imo it could hold true as he seems to need a lot of team support to be at his best.  But as we saw last season with Rosberg, a more determined driver could see the declaration of his teammate as the #1 to be a challenge.  He was motivated by Mercedes confirming Hamilton's #1 status in the team early in 2013 in Malaysia, but instead of being demoralized he dug deeper and was effectively a match for the #1 Hamilton on points post Malaysia and also doubled him in wins.

 

Other drivers would simply be very content with a #2 role.

 

All Ron has to do is talk to his drivers and go from there with his team strategy.  But I guess that would involve actual communication and listening skills which aren't Ron's strong suit!


Edited by halifaxf1fan, 13 March 2014 - 12:32.


#125 meister

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:32

 

 

For several years prior to 2010 Massa's consistency relative to (a) his teammate and (b) the rest of the field, was considerably better than during the period 2010-2013. Kimi and Alonso are both pretty consistent benchmarks, in that their competitiveness doesn't tend to fluctuate wildly from one race to another.

 

Kimi was very inconsistent at Ferrari. What you are saying is a good example of so many false hoods being stated as fact which are leading to incorrect conclusions. Massa was never consistent, and if you actually look over the 2008 races you would see that. In fact most drivers are generally inconsistent, and that is one of the main areas the really great drivers stand out from the rest, and why Massa looked unusually poor vs Alonso. He will look fine this year, I am sure.


Edited by meister, 12 March 2014 - 03:30.


#126 ATM

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:29

I always saw Massa as a confidence pilot. Always starting the season with high hopes and sliding down  when thing went awry. Maybe this year, with Alonso gone and Williams surprisingly good-looking (and maybe with some good first races results) me might actually pull a great performance. 



#127 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:34

No, it just kills the guy's spirit. You know that from that point on if you are leading your teamate you will have to let him pass.
 
I just think he wasted too much time at Ferrari. Had he started looking around during 2010 he would have found a good seat.

Pfffft. It wasn't the first time Massa had to concede to team orders, nor had he never benefitted from them himself. This was nothing new to him. He only had to play no.2 til the end of the season. He had 2011, 2012 and 2013 to have a fresh start and start on equal footing, but he just wasn't good enough. He never had anyone to blame but himself and if he let it get to him that badly, then again, his own fault.

#128 ATM

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:39

 

 

to have a fresh start and start on equal footing,

 

I'm afraid that's up to the team, and the team made it clear that they favor Alonso through and through. Once Massa went the no. 2 driver way, the only thing that could have saved him were some catastrophic performances from Alonso. And since Alonso was far from catastrophic, that's the way things remained until now. 



#129 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:41

I'm afraid that's up to the team, and the team made it clear that they favor Alonso through and through.

No they didn't. There was nothing stopping Massa from keeping up with Alonso during the season.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 March 2014 - 17:42.


#130 ATM

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:47

...does a gearbox change and 5 places penalty mean nothing? 

...moving over for the team-mate, playing rabbit for the other competitors?

...suave suggestions that your next year's contract is depending on whether you accept your no. 2 status and say "thank you"?

 

It's hard to keep up with Alonso when the team orders you to move over every time you're ahead. Sure, most of the time Alonso was ahead anyway on merit, not denying that - definitely he would have beaten Massa on merit alone,... but maybe letting Massa race fair would have done wonders for his morale and maybe, just maybe, he would have been closer to the Spaniard. 



#131 eronrules

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:48

Autosport :

 

May I have your attention please?
May I have your attention please?

 


Will the real Slim Shady Felipe baby please stand up?
I repeat, will the real 
 Slim Shady Felipe baby please stand up?

 

 

 

Hamsta & Telfonso: We're gonna have a problem here....

 

 

 

link : autosport


Edited by eronrules, 12 March 2014 - 17:51.


#132 Radion

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:52

...does a gearbox change and 5 places penalty mean nothing? 

...moving over for the team-mate, playing rabbit for the other competitors?

...suave suggestions that your next year's contract is depending on whether you accept your no. 2 status and say "thank you"?

 

It's hard to keep up with Alonso when the team orders you to move over every time you're ahead. Sure, most of the time Alonso was ahead anyway on merit, not denying that - definitely he would have beaten Massa on merit alone,... but maybe letting Massa race fair would have done wonders for his morale and maybe, just maybe, he would have been closer to the Spaniard. 

Alonso was fighting for the championship, massa wasn't. You'd have done the same thing, trust me.

 

Btw: Didn't felipe and alonso had a great fight last year in australia? How come they allowed felipe to fight alonso that time of the year? Maybe it's because massa is allowed to race alonso?  


Edited by Radion, 12 March 2014 - 17:55.


#133 ATM

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 17:55

If I were team principal, I guess so. This is one of the times I'm happy I'm not and I don't have to take this kind of decisions. I'm just a normal guy in front of the TV, seeing whatever is to be seen from the live feed and saying that Massa could be more than just a has-been or a train wreck. 



#134 redreni

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 21:08

[1] ...does a gearbox change and 5 places penalty mean nothing? 

[2] ...moving over for the team-mate, playing rabbit for the other competitors?

[3] ...suave suggestions that your next year's contract is depending on whether you accept your no. 2 status and say "thank you"?

 

It's hard to keep up with Alonso when the team orders you to move over every time you're ahead. Sure, most of the time Alonso was ahead anyway on merit, not denying that - definitely he would have beaten Massa on merit alone,... but maybe letting Massa race fair would have done wonders for his morale and maybe, just maybe, he would have been closer to the Spaniard. 

 

This doesn't prove they favoured Alonso from the start of any season.

 

[1] Alonso was well ahead in points when that happened. He was involved in the title fight and Massa wasn't. There had been no prior team orders that season as far as I'm aware. So you can't use it to prove Ferrari would have favoured Alonso in any and all circumstances, at most it shows they favoured him when he was their sole WDC contender - well, duh. But it doesn't even conclusively show that.

 

Although it mainly helped Alonso, that decision also helped Massa. The disadvantage of starting on the dirty side as compared to the clean side was more than five places, so it was worth taking a five place penalty to get on the clean side. Don't know why more people didn't try it. The teams' projections before the start were bang on: start on the dirty side and you will lose on average three or four places off the line, start on the clean side and you'll gain on average three or four places. That's exactly what happened. If he started sixth on the dirty side he could have expected to be ninth or tenth by turn 1. By starting 11th on the clean side he could expect to be seventh or eighth by turn 1. He started on the clean side and gained four places. I don't see what the fuss is about.

 

[2] I'm honestly not sure what you mean. When in your opinion did that happen?

 

[3] I'm not at all sure that happened - have you got anything to back this up?



#135 jjcale

jjcale
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Posted 12 March 2014 - 21:20

Was thinking today .... relative to talent, FM must be the luckiest driver in F1 for some time.