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Ferrari F14 T - Part II


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#3951 HPT

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:50

Why did he not flatter the F14T last race, then?

 

Unlike a taxi driver, it's the race driver's job to get every ounce of performance out of the car.

 

Maybe Ricciardo flattered the RBR, too and got every ounce out of it - to the point of pissing off Vettel.

 

Or, maybe, the F14T just got a little bit better and on a track that suits it better?

 

I think in terms of performance, Alonso's Ferrari and Riccardo's RBR were pretty closely matched, with a little swing in performance in different phases of the race. Of course Alonso couldn't drive above the theoretical limits of the car and 'flattered' is just figurative. When the performance of 2 cars are closely matched, the driver makes the difference. In Alonso's case, not only driving fast but conserving his tires, making all the right decisions like not wasting any time or tire life at all in defending against a quicker Rosberg. I'd imagine many drivers to actually put up a fight in that situation and end up losing time and/or destroying their tires. He knew Riccardo had fresher tires so he conserved them.

 

At least that is my take on it.



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#3952 aray

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:46

This race was very conditioned by tire performance.

 

Don't make a mistake thinking this race is necessarily representative.

 

Alonso got them better than RBR,  and Kimi that got big problems with tires in all race. The fastest laps of Alonso and Kimi were only different by less than 0.3 and Alonso lap was much nearer the end of the race with less fuel.

 

But typical "normal laps" by Kimi were more than a second worse than Alonso.

though Kimi set his best time just after putting the new tyre,while Alonso did it with 10 laps old one...



#3953 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:24

I think in terms of performance, Alonso's Ferrari and Riccardo's RBR were pretty closely matched, with a little swing in performance in different phases of the race. Of course Alonso couldn't drive above the theoretical limits of the car and 'flattered' is just figurative. When the performance of 2 cars are closely matched, the driver makes the difference. In Alonso's case, not only driving fast but conserving his tires, making all the right decisions like not wasting any time or tire life at all in defending against a quicker Rosberg. I'd imagine many drivers to actually put up a fight in that situation and end up losing time and/or destroying their tires. He knew Riccardo had fresher tires so he conserved them.

 

At least that is my take on it.

 

Plus winning places at the start as opposed to losing them like Dan.



#3954 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:57

But I think the mistake many people make, even commentators who should know better, is thinking that he's getting more from the car than it should be able to deliver.

Its a figure of speech. lol

#3955 jokuvaan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:10

There could be real unsolvable problem that due to FIA setup safety restrictions, same car might not work for Räikkönen and Alonso. If the car would generate tyre heat level that Kimi needs, then Alonso would be in trouble and vice versa.

 

Then there's the power steering issue, according to Mark Slade, Kimi makes constant small moves with his steering wheel, this way he can sense the grip level exceptionally well. Without the exact steering feedback, he is like a ant without feelers. According to another(former) F1 engineer, Ossi Oikarinen, Trulli also complained about power steering feedback a lot, Alonso and Ralf Schumacher on the other hand are more mechanically driven, hard turn at certain point of the corner.



#3956 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:28

There could be real unsolvable problem that due to FIA setup safety restrictions, same car might not work for Räikkönen and Alonso. If the car would generate tyre heat level that Kimi needs, then Alonso would be in trouble and vice versa.

Then there's the power steering issue, according to Mark Slade, Kimi makes constant small moves with his steering wheel, this way he can sense the grip level exceptionally well. Without the exact steering feedback, he is like a ant without feelers. According to another(former) F1 engineer, Ossi Oikarinen, Trulli also complained about power steering feedback a lot, Alonso and Ralf Schumacher on the other hand are more mechanically driven, hard turn at certain point of the corner.

I don't think this would be the case at all. What Ferrari need to do is just improve the car all round. The rest will take care of itself.

#3957 AustinF1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:36

Its a figure of speech. lol

Yeah I realize that, but it's a silly one, and one that some actually seem to believe, especially when trying to explain his amazing performance relative to other drivers in the same car.



#3958 AustinF1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:39

There could be real unsolvable problem that due to FIA setup safety restrictions, same car might not work for Räikkönen and Alonso. If the car would generate tyre heat level that Kimi needs, then Alonso would be in trouble and vice versa.

 

I've seen this a few times now, but we really don't know that at all. Alonso has proven to be one of the most adaptable drivers, or maybe the most adaptable of all, when it comes to driving different types of circuits or getting the most from cars with differing characteristics. Who knows? Maybe changes to the car that would help Kimi would make Alonso quicker. We really just don't know.


Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2014 - 10:42.


#3959 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:45

If the car would generate tyre heat level that Kimi needs, then Alonso would be in trouble and vice versa.
.


Care to give us some insight on how you came to this conclusion. Did kimi beat Alonso on a parallel universe, or your dreams where he drove a car with smoking hot tires that didn't melt and beat Alonso that way?

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#3960 kosmos

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:10

 If the car would generate tyre heat level that Kimi needs, then Alonso would be in trouble and vice versa.

 

 

 

 

Somehow you talk like Hakkinen, then the reality hits you.

 

I think Kimi's driving style is really perfect for these turbo cars," two-time World Champion Häkkinen explained in an interview with Spanish daily newspaper Marca. "Alonso pushes too hard, so I think Kimi will beat him.

 

 

Alonso push too hard :lol:

 

 

 

Regarding the car and the performance in China. I think we had the 3rd best car, with a slighty different race, Riccardo would have been in the podium. Maybe there was not much between RB and Ferrari, but I think it was all because the nature of the circuit.



#3961 Mackey

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:22

Vettel said after the race to the spanish press that Ferrari had made a good step this race thanks to a new fuel. De la Rosa seemed surprised that Red Bull had that information. 

Now I read this post in f1technical from the user shelly:

 

 

 

I have read (on thejudge13 iirc) that Helmut marko says that much of the progress made by ferrari in china was due to a new shell fuel.
Does anyone have more details about that?

 

Has this been discussed around here? I don´t think simply changing fuel can give you the kind of gains Ferrari had in China.



#3962 AustinF1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:36

Somehow you talk like Hakkinen, then the reality hits you.

 

 

Alonso push too hard :lol:

 

 

 

Regarding the car and the performance in China. I think we had the 3rd best car, with a slighty different race, Riccardo would have been in the podium. Maybe there was not much between RB and Ferrari, but I think it was all because the nature of the circuit.

Ferrari was 2nd quickest all weekend with the exception of the wet sessions. In other words, in the dry FP1 & 2 and the race, Ferrari was second only to Mercedes. You could also say that with a slightly different race Ferrari beats RBR by even more. Much was made of RIC "catching" ALO near the end, but Alonso wasn't pushing then.There was no need to.



#3963 AustinF1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:38

Vettel said after the race to the spanish press that Ferrari had made a good step this race thanks to a new fuel. De la Rosa seemed surprised that Red Bull had that information. 

Now I read this post in f1technical from the user shelly:

 

 

Has this been discussed around here? I don´t think simply changing fuel can give you the kind of gains Ferrari had in China.

Good call. I just tweeted about this a little while ago. I don't doubt that Shell came up with something that helped. Guy Lovett is constantly formulating fuels in the Shell Trackside Lab with support from Shell engineers at the tech centers. They also made big gains in the PU from everything I've read though.


Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2014 - 11:39.


#3964 aray

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 13:34

so fuel quality coming in to play now... :well:



#3965 eronrules

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 13:48

so fuel quality coming in to play now... :well:

yep, even DC alluded in Bebo article that part of mclaren's woes are down to the Exxon mobil fuel. V8 NA era was different as it was basically cutting down 2 cylinders from V10s that they used since stone age. but the 1.6L TC engine is a whole new different game and turbo playes a huge role in it. i guess the gains will flatline after 2/3 years, but right now, it's leaps and bounds interms of advantages to be found.



#3966 showtime

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:06

Ferrari didn't exactly hide it, they did a documentary and a third of it was a bout the new fuel Shell was developing. I doubt the step forward was mainly because of that.



#3967 aray

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:12

so what fuel Merc teams are using..?



#3968 eronrules

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:18

so what fuel Merc teams are using..?

petronas primax for Mercdes AMG and Force india

 

Petrobras for williams F1

 

ExxonMobil/Esso High Performance Unleaded (5.75% bio fuel) for Mclaren.


Edited by eronrules, 21 April 2014 - 14:23.


#3969 race addicted

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:19

Ferrari didn't exactly hide it, they did a documentary and a third of it was a bout the new fuel Shell was developing. (….)

Yep, but that makes it all the more puzzling why de la Rosa would be surprised Vettel knew!



#3970 keiichi

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:23

I think that saying the upturn in Ferrari's form is all about the new fuel doesn't make much sense.

 

It had to be a bit of everything...aero updates, PU upgrade, new fuel and the layout of the circuit that wasn't as bad for us as Bahrain's.

 

Let's just hope these next 3 weeks will help the team to make a significant step on the car's development.



#3971 Timstr11

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:26

During the Bahrain press conference, Newey alluded to different fuels among Mercedes teams resulting in different performances. They could see it with help of GPS analysis.

Teams have various tools to analyze rival car/engne performances. It's also an area that has advanced over the years.

 

 

 

Q: Adrian?
AN:
 I think when we talk about the power unit we talk about it by manufacturer. We should also include the fuel company of course. I think you’ll find within an engine, depending on what fuel it uses there can be very significant differences. That can also create differences. We certainly can see that in our own GPS analysis between our rivals that some appear to have significantly more power than others, even though they have the same engine. At the moment I think it is an engine formula that has tended to reshape the grid more than anything else, compared to last year. How that develops as we move forward is unclear.

Edited by Timstr11, 21 April 2014 - 14:30.


#3972 eronrules

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 14:38

btw,  in formula 1, Fuel as well as lubricants play vital role in performance gains. with these turbos, lubes and transmission oil developments will play divident more than actual race fuel. better engine oil will able to teams to push for more power . better fuel will of course give power gain. 



#3973 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 16:10

In the Horsepower documentary they said the fuel provided a significant advantage. They just couldn't use it because it caused engine knocking.

There are big gains to be had with fuel.

#3974 Hanzo

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 16:45

Yep, but that makes it all the more puzzling why de la Rosa would be surprised Vettel knew!

 

 

He was just pointing out to us the audience how rivals these days know almost everything about other teams "upgrades". But I do think he was surprised that Vettel did that comment publicly to the press and not keeping it to himself  :lol:

 

 

I want to say again that Ferrari's race strategy was absolutely perfect yesterday.



#3975 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 21:38

Yeah I realize that, but it's a silly one, and one that some actually seem to believe, especially when trying to explain his amazing performance relative to other drivers in the same car.

Nobody 'literally' believes that, as its a *figure of speech*. Its simply a way of saying a driver is getting more out of the car than most drivers would.

If somebody says a 'driver is flying', they also don't mean he's literally flying in the air.

Edited by Seanspeed, 21 April 2014 - 21:43.


#3976 BorkoF2012

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 22:02

I think that if they bring some big upgrades in Barcelona, as it was said numerous times in the previous few weeks - that they are bringing massive updates for Spanish GP, that track could be one of, if not the biggest opportunity for a Ferrari win this year. Just one long straight, just two really slow corners, many many fast corners, also both of the drivers, especially Alonso, but Raikkonen as well, have always been great in Barcelona.



#3977 RedOne

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 22:26

Nobody 'literally' believes that, as its a *figure of speech*. Its simply a way of saying a driver is getting more out of the car than most drivers would.If somebody says a 'driver is flying', they also don't mean he's literally flying in the air.


Unless you're Webbo in Valencia

Edited by RedOne, 21 April 2014 - 22:28.


#3978 AngelaTifosi

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:36

Give them an offer that they couldn't refuse.
 
 

#Mattiacci 1st mission is trying to hire former #Mercedes electronic engine specialists. via @Gazzetta_it



#3979 race addicted

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:40

..."former Merc' Electronic engine specialist?" So he's not there anymore? You can be sure Renault will give him an offer as well then.



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#3980 jstrains

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:38

..."former Merc' Electronic engine specialist?" So he's not there anymore? You can be sure Renault will give him an offer as well then.

 

Italy is much nicer than Stuttgart, no worries. Only Newey likes Silverstone more  ;)  :wave:



#3981 race addicted

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:46

......the comparison would be somewhere in Italy vs Brixworth, but I guess your point is still the same :)



#3982 OneAndOnly

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:10

If true Mattiacci is really wasting no time. I guess he's well aware that for success you have to surround yourself with the best people in the business.



#3983 Massa

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:52

It's what he said during the race weekend.

 


Mattiacci has promised to do whatever is needed to get the outfit back to the front of Formula 1, even if it means going on an aggressive recruitment drive[...]

But he has made it clear that nothing can be ruled out as a policy going forward once he has analysed the strengths and weaknesses of the team.

"I will discuss things with the chairman [Luca di Montezemolo], and clearly what is needed we will do," he said. "Even going to the market [to hire people].

"But with a clear idea that it is not just for the sake of shopping.

"It is only if we find someone that will bring extremely added value to a team that according to all of us is one of the highest level teams in F1. That is the philosophy. What is needed will be done."



#3984 Nonesuch

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:28

Yeah I realize that, but it's a silly one, and one that some actually seem to believe, especially when trying to explain his amazing performance relative to other drivers in the same car.

 

Exactly, all it has ever done is bring us hundreds of posts that can be summed up as 'alonso is so good cause felipe shows real speed of ferrari car !1!!1', or variations on the theme. :down:

 

What [Alonso]'s truly great at compared to so many others is getting what is available from the car. Look at the difference between him and Kimi today.

 

Alonso has really impressed me these past few years. He may have at times done dubious things character-wise, but I don't doubt for a second that he is one of, if not simply the, best drivers on the grid today.

 

I applaud the positive thoughts of those hoping for race wins, but at the moment I think 3rd and 4th ahead of the Red Bulls and the Mercedes customer teams are a good place to aim for in the races ahead. Here's hoping for more podiums for the men and women from Maranello. :up:

 

It's what he said during the race weekend.

 

This was reported on Eurosport/Yahoo for those interested in the source of the quotes.



#3985 AngelaTifosi

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:36

Italy is much nicer than Stuttgart, no worries. Only Newey likes Silverstone more  ;)  :wave:

 

Newey hates pasta....



#3986 Vibe

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:43

I'm just happy we finally saw some genuine pace from a Ferrari this season.

More of the same please.



#3987 sniper80

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 14:38

I'm happy SD has been sacked by Ferrari, the guy was a amicable person, but not the right person for F1. Too nice, too honest, I still think Ferrari would have been Champion with Alonso already if Flavio Briatore were team manager.