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Sebastian Vettel vs Daniel Ricciardo 2014


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#3951 icecream

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:53

Daniel onboard(6:25) when Vettel "forced" him out of the track on lap 2 - looks simply like Daniel mistake, too aggressive on the throttle.

http://www.canalplus...tml?vid=1094441

 

yeah ric seems to have been distracted by vettel's return, but vettel didn't do anything wrong.  ric's error.  

 

a weekend to forget for rbr.

 

i'm surprised they're having what seems to be electrical issues.  i'd understand more if it was parts letting go because they'd turned the wicks up too far.



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#3952 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:57

Yes, because both Hill and Villeneuve also have 100+ GPs with a Newey Rocketship on their curriculums. Likewise, VET was also fired during his last championship season.

Will you please swap your gift of thought for my glasses on reality? I'm tired of them, even though they're not even tinted.


(EDIT: Ohhhh, forgot to add - I do put VET above VIL, by quite some margin, but I don't need a madeup and irrelevant statistic to convince myself. But above Hill? No way)

 

You put Hill above Vettel, madness  :lol:  He drove four years a Newey Rocket ship and converted it to one win, Vettel four (or five) years and he got four WDC. Sebastian is losing against Dan that's the true picture of today, but when he had the chance to win he took it. Hill was never in the league of Sebastian, he never dominated the field like Sebastian did, I really don't know where you coming from..


Edited by 1Devil1, 26 June 2014 - 12:59.


#3953 pokerkid

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:01

Increasingly the way I see it is that the Red Bull is not a class leading car this year and is being shown up for its lack of downforce in an era of efficiency when the downforce/drag/fuel usage ratios really matter.

The car is hard to drive.

 

Is it? It's been the second best car this year with most people regarding it as having a chassis at least equal to Mercedes. People are acting like as if its a donkey like the Ferrari's have been the last 4 years. This is still a fantastic car.



#3954 sennafan24

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:05

You put Hill above Vettel, madness  :lol:  He drove four years a Newey Rocket ship and converted it to one win, Vettel four (or five) years and he got four WDC. Sebastian is losing against Dan that's the true picture of today, but when he had the chance to win he took it. Hill was never in the league of Sebastian, he never dominated the field like Sebastian did, I really don't know where you coming from..

Not calling you out man, but think about context

 

Hill had Prost as a teammate in 1993

 

1994? Not touching with a bargepole

 

1995 - He was pretty dire, but managed to beat a young D.C

 

1996 - Won the WDC by beating J.V as teammate, who went on to become WDC the following year

 

I rate Seb above Hill, but I get the argument the other way. Hill had a much harder schedule in his 4 years in a "Newey Rocketship", than Seb had.


Edited by sennafan24, 26 June 2014 - 13:06.


#3955 Thomas99

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:11

Hill was impressive in the Arrows in 1997 too. He was gone by 1998 but its arguably if Hill's Newey rockship was ever class leading like Sebs.



#3956 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:14

Not calling you out man, but think about context

 

Hill had Prost as a teammate in 1993

 

1994? Not touching with a bargepole

 

1995 - He was pretty dire, but managed to beat a young D.C

 

1996 - Won the WDC by beating J.V as teammate, who went on to become WDC the following year

 

I rate Seb above Hill, but I get the argument the other way. Hill had a much harder schedule in his 4 years in a "Newey Rocketship", than Seb had.

 

Prost was known to be over the hill, he was not up to speed, but he outpaced even his old days Hill. In 1994 Hill did become the lead driver and the FIA handed him the chance to fight against Michael and win the world championship, in 1995 he had the best car, stated by a lot of experts but Schumacher dominated the competition. He had harder competition, but he also had the advantage to drive for the same team for years, will his team mates came and went really fast. When he had the outright best car, he did not dominate the competition, he made stupid mistakes (crashing) all over the place. I believe a Schumacher in 1996 Williams would have crunched the winning record of Mansell. Today it seems Vettel has a speed deficit, but can't see him losing out in the best car like Hill, like Seb himself proved. F1 is not all about speed, also about grabbing your WDC chance, and maximize your performance (even if you maybe slower than one or two drivers)


Edited by 1Devil1, 26 June 2014 - 13:23.


#3957 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:17

Hill was impressive in the Arrows in 1997 too. He was gone by 1998 but its arguably if Hill's Newey rockship was ever class leading like Sebs.

 

That's new, it wasn't why did people blame him for 1995? 1993 was the best car, as 1996, Their car were even more dominate back than as RedBulls because larger gaps were more common... but not surprising that you seeing it that way



#3958 Thomas99

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:24

That's new, it wasn't why did people blame him for 1995? 1993 was the best car, as 1996, Their car were even more dominate back than as RedBulls because larger gaps were more common... but not surprising that you seeing it that way

 

see it what way? The bennetton in 1995 was a damn good car. Schumacher was a superior driver to Hill. I rate Vettel above Hill but its hard to tell until we see them against a larger sample size of drivers. Hill went ok against Prost, I'd have to see Vettel drive in the same car as Alonso.



#3959 sanjiro

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:25

All DRs mistake

That is clear



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#3960 Brackets

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:28

You put Hill above Vettel, madness :lol: He drove four years a Newey Rocket ship and converted it to one win, Vettel four (or five) years and he got four WDC. … I really don't know where you coming from.

So the 1993-1996 Williams is now the same sort of rocket ship as SEBs’ RedBulls, and people wonder where ~I~ am coming from? Okay…

Nevertheless, he did impress me more in the Arrows, and even in the Jordan (yes, I know how that ended – the part that everybody is forgetting about how it did indeed end is that both teams were turned from backmarker/midfield into regular GP-winners over the course of a season, ~without~ taking all of the Benetton crew with him. And yes again: technically, the Arrows never did actually finish first – thanks for reminding me…).

Hill wasn’t just that good, he was also one of the best development drivers the sport has ever seen.

I might change my impression on SEB if he gives me some more TorroRosso years, ~and~ starts pummelling DR silly. Starting next week. Not just beat him, pummel him. Silly.

#3961 sennafan24

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:29

Prost was known to be over the hill, he was not up to speed, but he outpaced even his old days Hill. In 1994 Hill did become the lead driver and the FIA handed him the chance to fight against Michael and win the world championship, in 1995 he had the best car, stated by a lot of experts but Schumacher dominated the competition. He had harder competition, but he also had the advantage to drive for the same team for years, will his team mates came and went really fast. When he had the outright best car, he did not dominate the competition, he made stupid mistakes (crashing) all over the place. I believe a Schumacher in 1996 Williams would have crunched the winning record of Mansell. Today it seems Vettel has a speed deficit, but can't see him losing out in the best car like Hill, like Seb himself proved. F1 is not all about speed, also about grabbing your WDC chance, and maximize your performance (even if you maybe slower than one or two drivers)

Hill was a basically a rookie in 1993 though, so it evens out (he had limited running in 1992) 1995, I can agree on.  1996, I am sure Schumi would have won more easier than Hill. Vettel did not fail in the clutch, but he was not faced with a rapid succession of young teammates either

 

I would put Hill's 1996 campaign above Vettel's 2012 campaign for sure.

 

Remember I am not arguing that Hill is better, just that he raced under more difficult circumstances than Seb in the 4 years we underlined.



#3962 Thomas99

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:32

Vettel's loss in 2009 is no better than Hill's in 1994 or 1995. They both had little experience. Its just that Hill only got 1 year to redeem himself while Vettel's car continued on for half a decade.



#3963 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:39

Vettel's loss in 2009 is no better than Hill's in 1994 or 1995. They both had little experience. Its just that Hill only got 1 year to redeem himself while Vettel's car continued on for half a decade.

 

:lol: And you are complaining about Bourbon?   In 1995 the Williams was the outright best car, while in 2009 the Red Bull became the faster to end of the season. It's stated Hill should have won that year, while people say about 2009 a more matured driver perhaps would have taken the WDC in Sebastians case. Brawn was the car to have, and Button did built a nice gap, it's questionable that any driver would have overhaul him at the end of season. Maybe Alonso? But to overlay both season, funny


Edited by 1Devil1, 26 June 2014 - 13:40.


#3964 Thomas99

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 13:41

:lol: And you are complaining about Bourbon?   In 1995 the Williams was the outright best car, while in 2009 the Red Bull became the faster to end of the season. It's stated Hill should have won that year, while people say about 2009 a more matured driver perhaps would have taken the WDC in Sebastians case. Brawn was the car to have, and Button did built a nice gap, it's questionable that any driver would have overhaul him at the end of season. Maybe Alonso? But to overlay both season, funny

 

I don't think you can say outright the 1995 Williams was the best car like its an undesputable fact. Bennetton won both championships that year.

 

The 1995 Williams certainly wasn't 'superior' in a way that would allow Hill to beat Schumacher.


Edited by Thomas99, 26 June 2014 - 13:43.


#3965 grichka

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:01

Is it? It's been the second best car this year with most people regarding it as having a chassis at least equal to Mercedes. People are acting like as if its a donkey like the Ferrari's have been the last 4 years. This is still a fantastic car.

For me RB 10 is the same kind of donkey as were Ferraris - just much more unreliable. It's kind of miracle that this car is second in WCC with that Reanult shitbox, the spot that should be easy taken by Williams if they had competent drivers.



#3966 RonnyRonny

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:07

Wait... So Ricciardo is better than Hill?

#3967 Brackets

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:12

Vettel's loss in 2009 is no better than Hill's in 1994 or 1995. They both had little experience. Its just that Hill only got 1 year to redeem himself while Vettel's car continued on for half a decade.

I disagree about ’95. Completely.

Hill started that season mentally broken down. I understand why he was mentally broken, but I can’t accept it from a top-shelf driver (I almost said “tier 1 driver” but then I just started laughing hysterically). He shouldn’t have allowed ’95 to happen (he did bounce back in ’96, but that was with Schumacher effectively out of the picture).

That’s at least one area where VET has gotten Hill covered. Sure, VET has had it more easy than Hill overall, but he was – for example - spun out of contention for the title in Brazil, only to come back and take what was his. Of course his car made it easy from a mathematical point of view (it being the fastest and all that), but the head still needed to do all the hard work. And it did.

Anyway, all this because my belief that SEB has had it way too easy during his rocket ship years as opposed to Hill, which is the point that needed to be made in the comparison with DR (because I’m not the one taking this off-topic :), I’m doing this in the context of the VET-RIC thread). Let me explain:

VETs’ titles were mostly ‘delta-cruising’. That’s not a dig at SEB, ~everybody~ was delta-cruising, it’s just that the SEB/RB combo was exceptionally good at it. I mean, just look at the number of spins of all the drivers during the Vettel-years, including the pay-drivers (you may have to exclude MAL for any of this to make sense). I made a quick calculation on the back of a coaster, rounded up to the nearest integer, and came up with ‘0’. During the “Hill-years”, even Schumacher was regularly spinning left, right and centre. Cars also broke down. Often. Imagine that. (OK, this is a little bit easier to imagine if you’re following HAM these days, or VET, but I digress…)

Then out the woodwork comes one DR, and he starts beating SEB. With quite some consistency. Suddenly, VET no longer has it easy, and so far he’s not responding all that well, even making uncharacteristic driver errors (though he is brutally honest in his public assertions on his current relative performance). And now we’ll have to wait and see how he copes. Maybe he’ll turn out to be better than Hill after all ;)… He could start by being better than Daniel.

#3968 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:16

Wait... So Ricciardo is better than Hill?

 

You know tha'st a weird logic? Than Button was a better than Villeneuve in 2011 because Hamilton is a better driver than Villeneuve? We are talking about all time achievements. Not a short moment of time


Edited by 1Devil1, 26 June 2014 - 14:16.


#3969 RonnyRonny

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:23

You know tha'st a weird logic? Than Button was a better than Villeneuve in 2011 because Hamilton is a better driver than Villeneuve? We are talking about all time achievements. Not a short moment of time


I was trying to put into perspective how silly the conversation was getting.

#3970 bourbon

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 14:47

yeah ric seems to have been distracted by vettel's return, but vettel didn't do anything wrong.  ric's error.  

 

Agreed. 

 

 

a weekend to forget for rbr.

 

i'm surprised they're having what seems to be electrical issues.  i'd understand more if it was parts letting go because they'd turned the wicks up too far.

 

 

It was odd and not just the RB cars, but the STRR cars also.  You had to feel sorry for Didi.



#3971 garagetinkerer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:21

Doesn't make sense to me. What a real driver would do is just drive around and wait for the team to give him a better car. I mean they're paying him 30 million dollars a year just to be ready, not to extract the best possible performances every weekend.

I thought his base pay is less than 10 a year... there were jokes last year about how Newey earns more than Vettel.
 


Edited by garagetinkerer, 26 June 2014 - 18:24.


#3972 garagetinkerer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:23

Bourbon no one agrees with your one sided fanboyism. Why don't you just do what the reasonable Vettel fans are doing and say that Daniel has outperformed him slightly so far but you're interested in seeing what happens for the remainder of the year.

 

There, its that simple.

if the failed engines and other components are anything to go by, it will be nothing short of a miracle if Vettel outscores Ricciardo through the rest of the year... as soon there will be penalties. I think this formula is more about the cars than it is about the drivers. It is funny how everytime FIA tries to make it more about the drivers, the more about the cars it becomes.



#3973 garagetinkerer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:26

For me RB 10 is the same kind of donkey as were Ferraris - just much more unreliable. It's kind of miracle that this car is second in WCC with that Reanult shitbox, the spot that should be easy taken by Williams if they had competent drivers.

They've been mucking pit-stops and strategies for one driver in particular... had they done their job proper, they would be doing quite better really. Then again yes, RBR clinging to the second spot is hilarious with that Renault PU... though not for long it seems. Season is long and with only 1 car with enough spares, i don't think RBR can keep that spot.



#3974 garagetinkerer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:28

I don't think you can say outright the 1995 Williams was the best car like its an undesputable fact. Bennetton won both championships that year.

 

The 1995 Williams certainly wasn't 'superior' in a way that would allow Hill to beat Schumacher.

Schumacher was just a better driver... he was keeping with the Williams in '97 in a Ferrari which had no business to fight for title.

 

edit: by the by, i think in '95 the cars were closer, as opposed to '94 when Benetton was running Ford engines which lacked the performance of Renault, but with a little edge to Williams


Edited by garagetinkerer, 26 June 2014 - 18:29.


#3975 Cesc

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:36

For me RB 10 is the same kind of donkey as were Ferraris - just much more unreliable. It's kind of miracle that this car is second in WCC with that Reanult shitbox, the spot that should be easy taken by Williams if they had competent drivers.

The Renault is better than the Ferrari PU I think, look at "power" tracks like Bahrain and Canada, top speed and traction is all in those tracks. To me the RB10 is the second best car, no doubt. But in some tracks the Merc. engine teams compete with them.



#3976 Cesc

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 18:38

Schumacher was just a better driver... he was keeping with the Williams in '97 in a Ferrari which had no business to fight for title.

 

edit: by the by, i think in '95 the cars were closer, as opposed to '94 when Benetton was running Ford engines which lacked the performance of Renault, but with a little edge to Williams

 

So do I. in 1994 the Benetton was lacking power due to the Ford Zetec, but in 1995, with the Renault engine + MSchumacher it was clear he was going to crash everyone.



#3977 garagetinkerer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 19:14

The Renault is better than the Ferrari PU I think, look at "power" tracks like Bahrain and Canada, top speed and traction is all in those tracks. To me the RB10 is the second best car, no doubt. But in some tracks the Merc. engine teams compete with them.

Nope... not as yet and reliable as poop.... which doesn't help. Vettel is using his 4th of most of the things, and there is more than half a season still to go. Ferrari are better... the problem for Ferrari is different. I quite can't put my finger on it yet (and seemingly nor can they). What would have helped a bit was if Raikkonen was not punted off as much as he was, and then the car doesn't quite work for him... in the absence of that, the gap seems larger than it is, and dare i say in opposite direction. As a tifoso, this being lost bit, it really is annoying. We've been 'lost' for 4th year running and it is getting really old, and unpleasant, but that is for another thread... F14T one perhaps.

 

 

 

So do I. in 1994 the Benetton was lacking power due to the Ford Zetec, but in 1995, with the Renault engine + MSchumacher it was clear he was going to crash everyone.

Surely you mean crush :p or crash parties... but as it is... :p


Edited by garagetinkerer, 26 June 2014 - 19:16.


#3978 lbennie

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:18

I can see why Adrian Newey left the sport.

 

No drivers would want him joining their team as it would invalidate all their achievements in the car  :lol:



#3979 Thomas99

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:19

I can see why Adrian Newey left the sport.

 

No drivers would want him joining their team as it would invalidate all their achievements in the car  :lol:

Not really.

 

Vettel has every chance to prove his name. Had Rubens Barichello or Felipe Massa outperformed Schumacher we would be asking questions too.



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#3980 lbennie

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:26

Not really.

 

Vettel has every chance to prove his name. Had Rubens Barichello or Felipe Massa outperformed Schumacher we would be asking questions too.

 

Webber was firmly dealt with and i would rate him higher than both.

 

With all due respect, i think Dan has a bit more about him than those two aswell. But time will tell.


Edited by lbennie, 27 June 2014 - 01:31.


#3981 sanjiro

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:21

Its is entirely possible that the completely outmatched MW 2011-2013 was so litle competition for SV that he became a little complacent 

It can take time to re-motivate from that.

 

I would like to think DR is beating SV performing at 100%

However this may not be the case

 

Regardless of this, It will reflect negatively on SV just as much as every other WDC who gets outmatched by a team mate

Its part of the reason people place AS above all others and drivers like DH and JV and JB dont get held up as all time greats.

 

Having said that.. 4 WDC. It would take many season getting beaten by many other team mates to to lessen that achievement and 2014 is not over yet 

 

 

O and.... DR > SV



#3982 kenkip

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:12

I wish Seb would bit Daniel Ric on the shoulder to really get this thread going! :rotfl:



#3983 kenkip

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:14

Actually,thinking of it ,Seb is pretty much the Luis Suarez of F1 huh?Talented but a massive villian with some major controversies.Interesting comparison..



#3984 kenkip

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:16

Guys,at what point will RB start thinking to move development of the car towards Daniel's style?



#3985 skc

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:31

Actually,thinking of it ,Seb is pretty much the Luis Suarez of F1 huh?Talented but a massive villian with some major controversies.Interesting comparison..


Terrible comparison. What controversies? The Suarez comparison works best for Alonso or Schumacher.

Seb is more like...Fernando Torres. Nobody can decide if his past was a fluke or not.

#3986 skc

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:33

Guys,at what point will RB start thinking to move development of the car towards Daniel's style?


Once we get past 10 races methinks.

#3987 Brother Fox

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:45

I've never seen Seb throw himself to the ground clutching his knee when someone brushes his shoulder - so that puts him ahead of most soccer players :)

#3988 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:58

One of the worst articles I have ever seen, clearly a fanboy of Kimi. Even the language used doesn't look like a true professional, looks more like a forum text than a true well written piece. and contradictory in some places lol

Why thank you. But please do elaborate on the contradictions you mention. It would help me greatly since my language obviously is lacking professionalism  :)



#3989 kenkip

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 07:39

Yup,that Suarez comparison was terrible,I had forgotten about the other bites and the racial slurs.Christ,even Alonso looks like a saint now!



#3990 bourbon

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 07:54

Its is entirely possible that the completely outmatched MW 2011-2013 was so litle competition for SV that he became a little complacent 

It can take time to re-motivate from that.

 

I would like to think DR is beating SV performing at 100%

However this may not be the case

 

Regardless of this, It will reflect negatively on SV just as much as every other WDC who gets outmatched by a team mate

Its part of the reason people place AS above all others and drivers like DH and JV and JB dont get held up as all time greats.

 

Having said that.. 4 WDC. It would take many season getting beaten by many other team mates to to lessen that achievement and 2014 is not over yet 

 

 

O and.... DR > SV

 

I would imagine Seb is performing at 100% as possible, but remember he's on # 4 of all PU parts except 1 and has had a crap load of other technical issues besides, so it is difficult to quantify.  Horner was talking about this yesterday

 

 

Why thank you. But please do elaborate on the contradictions you mention. It would help me greatly since my language obviously is lacking professionalism  :)

 

I enjoyed it :up:


Edited by bourbon, 27 June 2014 - 08:12.


#3991 lbennie

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:01

Terrible comparison. What controversies? The Suarez comparison works best for Alonso or Schumacher.

Seb is more like...Fernando Torres. Nobody can decide if his past was a fluke or not.

 

Actually this is very apt, if you saw torres for athletico or liverpool you would know hes got amazing skill, people with short memories would prob write him off as a flash in the pan.



#3992 lbennie

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:04

Why thank you. But please do elaborate on the contradictions you mention. It would help me greatly since my language obviously is lacking professionalism  :)

 

Oh is that you mate. 

All I can say is you chose a good domain name. :D

 

Also, hang in there, Kimi is too good not to bounce back  :up:


Edited by lbennie, 27 June 2014 - 08:08.


#3993 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:42

Oh is that you mate. 

All I can say is you chose a good domain name. :D

 

Also, hang in there, Kimi is too good not to bounce back  :up:

Cheers. After all. What is the world without some honesty?   ;)

 

Oh, I am hanging. That's for sure.



#3994 pokerkid

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:50

Why thank you. But please do elaborate on the contradictions you mention. It would help me greatly since my language obviously is lacking professionalism  :)

 

Hi. Interesting article. I was wondering if this comment was just tongue in cheek or you were being serious?

 

 

He is a very good driver but speedwise he gets nowhere near the speed that Kimi possesses on equal terms


Edited by pokerkid, 27 June 2014 - 09:51.


#3995 SophieB

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 10:09

Shit, are Vettel and Ricciardo so boring or something that you'd all rather talk about other drivers instead? If so, tough - go to the relevent threads (or blogs) to do that in because this one should be pretty much all Vettel, all Ricciardo all the time. Or rather Part II of this thread should be:

 

http://forums.autosp...i/#entry6775464

 

See you on the other side.