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Sebastian Vettel vs Daniel Ricciardo 2014


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#3151 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:55

Vettel is doing alright. This weekend was pretty good and if he stops having issues he'll get results. But he'll have always strong opposition in the other side of the garage, it's not going to be a walk in the park.

Shame this great fight will be for 3rd in the standings... But there's also popcorn time with the winning duo so no worries, we'll be entertained. And hopefully Raikkonen stops driving like a man heading for retirement and we'll have one more place to look at. Despite Mercedes dominance I'm having fun this season, certainly more than in 2002 or 2004.

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#3152 sennafan24

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:11

Vettel is doing alright. 

Agreed, I have seen this year more as a revelation of D.R's talent than a exposure of Seb's.

 

The season is still fairly young, and it is possible Seb can still win this teammate battle by a modest margin. At the very worst we are finding out that Seb can be beaten/matched, just like we discovered with Lewis in 2011, and Alonso in 2007.

 

Unlike other past WDC's (who shall remain nameless), Seb has welcomed a young and hungry driver as a teammate. I commend him for that, I honestly think he would be having a much easier time with Kimi.



#3153 Andrew Hope

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:17

The only people who think Kimi would be destroying Vettel are the people still pretending it's 2004.



#3154 DavidHeath461

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:25

There were no team orders. Rocky was merely giving some advice to Vettel, which the latter decided to ignore.

Vettel got the undercut yet he couldn't make it work. Ricciardo saved his tyres and delivered a great in lap.

Vettel should be worried. Ricciardo clearly had the legs on him. He can't rely on Ricciardo dropping 3 tents in q3 or having bad start at every race.

#3155 skc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 18:02

When you say Vettel should be worried...worried about what exactly? Losing out on the WDC?

 

The only thing he should be worried about at the moment i hi contract negotiatons. I believe he's currently nowhere near the salary level of Alonso or Hamilton and that needs to be rectified ASAP.



#3156 KTownDevil

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 18:27

Ah, feck it!

 

I've taken out all the races that have been disputed with me, and we're left with this:

 

20140608CanadaRevisedAgain_zpsb8413c7b.j

 

Go on, dispute away!  :lol:

 

Spot on  :up:

 

Thanks



#3157 tghik

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:35

When you say Vettel should be worried...worried about what exactly? Losing out on the WDC?

 

The only thing he should be worried about at the moment i hi contract negotiatons. I believe he's currently nowhere near the salary level of Alonso or Hamilton and that needs to be rectified ASAP.

Can I ask how much Ric is making ?



#3158 skc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:37

Can I ask how much Ric is making ?

 

No idea, but probably much, much less than Seb. He'll be able to negotiate new terms in a few years when his contract is up too I'm sure. By then he would have won a world championship. That much is guaranteed at least.



#3159 ollebompa

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:39

Can I ask how much Ric is making ?

I think he's gets a nickel, a popsicle and a Manhattan apartment.



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#3160 bub

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:51

What struck me most about Canada was just how cool it was (for me, anyway) to see two very evenly matched teammates getting along. I seriously do not buy all the media bogusness about how they must 'hate each other' (an emotion usually said to be coming from Seb's end of the garage), and it's a joy to me to see a pair of intensely competitive teammates celebrating together for a change--made much more so because I support both of them. Such a refreshing sight after the Vettel/Webber relationship, which I think in hindsight was clearly an issue with Webber's personality, not Vettel's. Now that I've lit a fire in a gunpowder factory... :lol:

Ricciardo must be over the moon; I'm happy for him. :D

 

 

I really don't see how there is enough evidence to come to that conclusion but I agree with the rest of the post. Seeing Vettel congratulate Ricciardo was one of the best bits of the race for me.



#3161 tghik

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 20:03

No idea, but probably much, much less than Seb. He'll be able to negotiate new terms in a few years when his contract is up too I'm sure. By then he would have won a world championship. That much is guaranteed at least.

I'd like to be as optimistic as you, but I'm rather realistic. Winning WDC is mostly about car strength and luck. Or should I say just luck, as the to be in a dominant car, luck is required. There is no formula to choose a winning team for the next season/s. But I would love him to win the championship, no question



#3162 zippythecat

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 20:06

When you say Vettel should be worried...worried about what exactly? Losing out on the WDC?

 

The only thing he should be worried about at the moment i hi contract negotiatons. I believe he's currently nowhere near the salary level of Alonso or Hamilton and that needs to be rectified ASAP.

 

It won't be rectified by Red Bull. The whole point of the young driver's program is that they don't have to give a driver an Alonso-sized contract.



#3163 skc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 20:35

I'd like to be as optimistic as you, but I'm rather realistic. Winning WDC is mostly about car strength and luck. Or should I say just luck, as the to be in a dominant car, luck is required. There is no formula to choose a winning team for the next season/s. But I would love him to win the championship, no question

 

I think Redbull as a team are probably the most efficient, well run and well funded teams in formula 1 today. I seriously doubt it will be long before they have a competitive car again. Sure this season has gone, but I expect them to be among the front runners at least next season and both Seb and Dan will be challenging for the title. 



#3164 tghik

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 21:05

I think Redbull as a team are probably the most efficient, well run and well funded teams in formula 1 today. I seriously doubt it will be long before they have a competitive car again. Sure this season has gone, but I expect them to be among the front runners at least next season and both Seb and Dan will be challenging for the title. 

hmm, if only that was the case, history shows otherwise ... so was ferrari, mclaren renault and ... there is never sure thing about it



#3165 GhostR

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 21:19

One thing that's been forgotten in the whole debate around the pit stop where Dan jumped Seb, is that Seb was saying his tyres were done and then Dan got the jump doing a mega in lap on tyres that were older than Seb's.

That probably influenced the advice given to Seb to conserve his tyres. Yet again he was eating them faster than Dan. Its been a constant this year even when Seb's been quick.

#3166 Exb

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 21:32

One thing that's been forgotten in the whole debate around the pit stop where Dan jumped Seb, is that Seb was saying his tyres were done and then Dan got the jump doing a mega in lap on tyres that were older than Seb's.

That probably influenced the advice given to Seb to conserve his tyres. Yet again he was eating them faster than Dan. Its been a constant this year even when Seb's been quick.


Maybe not??? (But it is a German article so it may have a hidden agenda  ;))
http://www.autobild....tz-5155998.html
Der Fehler: Vettel wurde zu früh reinbefohlen. „Meine Reifen waren noch gar nicht runter“, wunderte er sich denn auch hinterher.
Translation from google - The error: Vettel was purely ordered too early. "My tires were not even down," he marveled afterwards.



#3167 Ricciardo2014

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 21:41

Can I ask how much Ric is making ?

 

2.500 000 Euros / 3.600 000 Aus

 

Sebastian's on 16 000 000 Euros / 23.200 000 Aus

 

No idea what the bonus arrangement is though, can't find that anywhere. 



#3168 bourbon

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 22:04

Way back when it was reported that the win bonus was 1.5 million. Which is why they take such low salaries. Dunno how reliable that is.

Edited by bourbon, 10 June 2014 - 22:05.


#3169 Ricciardo2014

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 22:27

Way back when it was reported that the win bonus was 1.5 million. Which is why they take such low salaries. Dunno how reliable that is.

 

Makes it a pretty good wage if you can bang in nine wins in a row  :eek:



#3170 Melbourne Park

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 22:58

...

Bach and Garloff (Sport Bild) reported that Red Bull’s ‘long-term goal’ is to keep Ricciardo alongside reigning quadruple world champion Sebastian Vettel until at least 2018.  Red Bull have reportedly taken up Dan's option and a 2015 deal could be announced at Red Bull’s home race in Austria next weekend.

 

News Bits

 

 

Based on previous RBR behaviors, that's bad news for Dan. Because whenever Mark Webber signed, he was as fast as Seb, and then after he signed, he went slower, as well as his bad luck in tactics and pitstop times suddenly turning against him.

 

I hope Dan doesn't sign. He should only sign on the condition, that he gets a fair deal as far as tactics, support, car bits, pitstop times, information and car setups from RBR.



#3171 Melbourne Park

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:03

Don't think its been mentioned ... but perhaps Seb is quite brilliant in clear air, and now he is not getting it, he looks average.

 

Meanwhile Dan has lived his whole F1 career eating bad air. 

 

 

There's also the mind thing. I never thought a guy who is so happy could think.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 10 June 2014 - 23:05.


#3172 bourbon

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:13

Don't think its been mentioned ... but perhaps Seb is quite brilliant in clear air, and now he is not getting it, he looks average.

Meanwhile Dan has lived his whole F1 career eating bad air.


There's also the mind thing. I never thought a guy who is so happy could think.


And so Barcelona 14, Abu Dhabi 12, Silverstone 11 and the like were just fluke drives for Seb?

Based on previous RBR behaviors, that's bad news for Dan. Because whenever Mark Webber signed, he was as fast as Seb, and then after he signed, he went slower, as well as his bad luck in tactics and pitstop times suddenly turning against him.

I hope Dan doesn't sign. He should only sign on the condition, that he gets a fair deal as far as tactics, support, car bits, pitstop times, information and car setups from RBR.


Agreed, mainly so that outsiders will not start in with conspiracy theories. He should also demand that they be allowed to race. They both should. :)

Edited by bourbon, 10 June 2014 - 23:26.


#3173 icecream

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:21

Don't think its been mentioned ... but perhaps Seb is quite brilliant in clear air, and now he is not getting it, he looks average.

 

 

i think this more comes down to the car.  very fast out front, but not the best when stuck in traffic.  this perhaps tended to flatter vettel a little, and conversely for Webber!



#3174 Melbourne Park

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:21

There were no team orders. Rocky was merely giving some advice to Vettel, which the latter decided to ignore.

Vettel got the undercut yet he couldn't make it work. Ricciardo saved his tyres and delivered a great in lap.

Vettel should be worried. Ricciardo clearly had the legs on him. He can't rely on Ricciardo dropping 3 tents in q3 or having bad start at every race.

 

The counter argument (put by an Australian because we all believe in fair play):

 

The Pirelli tyres have been slow in their first lap. Hence an undercut was never a certainty. While Dan's lap before his pitstop was extraordinary, the other side of that is how quickly you can run on the fresh tyres.

 

Seb was on poor tyres, so he needed to come in. Hence his slow (compared to Dan's) lap coming into the pits. Therfore too, Dan's tyres were better so Dan's in lap was not so extraordinary after all. Just surprising that his tyres were in better condition than Seb's. Meanwhile Seb needed to run his outlap one second faster than his in-lap, but he did not. Perhaps due to the tyres not coming up to pace in time. Perhaps due to traffic. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he did not realise Dan would be so quick.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 10 June 2014 - 23:24.


#3175 Exb

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:40

Seb was on poor tyres, so he needed to come in. Hence his slow (compared to Dan's) lap coming into the pits. Therfore too, Dan's tyres were better so Dan's in lap was not so extraordinary after all. Just surprising that his tyres were in better condition than Seb's. Meanwhile Seb needed to run his outlap one second faster than his in-lap, but he did not. Perhaps due to the tyres not coming up to pace in time. Perhaps due to traffic. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he did not realise Dan would be so quick.


I don't think thats true - Sebs in-lap was slow due to him being right up behind Hulkenberg and unable to run at the pace the Red Bull could go, it was impossible for him to go quicker, once Vettel stopped it gave Daniel a couple of seconds gap (where Seb had been) to use the pace of the Red Bull to close up behind Hulk (nothing extraordinary really). It was Vettels out lap that cost him position. Vettels tyres were only about 20 laps old, he then ran 35 laps on the 3rd set - the entire stint behind other cars and got to the end OK.

#3176 FBJim

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:12

And so Barcelona 14, Abu Dhabi 12, Silverstone 11 and the like were just fluke drives for Seb?


Agreed, mainly so that outsiders will not start in with conspiracy theories. He should also demand that they be allowed to race. They both should. :)

Abu Dhabi 12 was absolutely a SC-assisted fluke. 



#3177 v@sh

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:17

Seb was on poor tyres, so he needed to come in. Hence his slow (compared to Dan's) lap coming into the pits. Therfore too, Dan's tyres were better so Dan's in lap was not so extraordinary after all. Just surprising that his tyres were in better condition than Seb's. Meanwhile Seb needed to run his outlap one second faster than his in-lap, but he did not. Perhaps due to the tyres not coming up to pace in time. Perhaps due to traffic. Perhaps he made a mistake. Perhaps he did not realise Dan would be so quick.

 

Seb wasn't poor on tires, he was just held up by Hulkenburg. The reason that RB brought him in so early was to cover off Williams and stop Bottas from getting the undercut.

 

If Seb stayed out and stayed stuck behind Hulkenburg, he would have lost out to Bottas and Ricciardo anyway because RB did not know how long Hulkenburg was going to stay out. His race was ruined by then anyway and it would have been worse if he continued behind Hulkenburg.


Edited by v@sh, 11 June 2014 - 00:18.


#3178 Melbourne Park

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:43

Seb wasn't poor on tires, he was just held up by Hulkenburg. The reason that RB brought him in so early was to cover off Williams and stop Bottas from getting the undercut.

 

If Seb stayed out and stayed stuck behind Hulkenburg, he would have lost out to Bottas and Ricciardo anyway because RB did not know how long Hulkenburg was going to stay out. His race was ruined by then anyway and it would have been worse if he continued behind Hulkenburg.

 

I cannot get any lap data.

 

The Autosport service I pay for no longer lists such data.

 

Forix does not provide such data, and its charts are do not make sense on my OS X browser. 

 

Without accurate data, I just don't know.

 

If someone can post a data link, I'd like to examine the gaps and overall data.

 

Hopeless that Autosport can't deliver data that for years they did superbly.



#3179 icecream

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:52

how about the maclarenf-1 data

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...t&gp=922&graf=3



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#3180 sanjiro

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:10

SVs chance at the win was lost when he failed to pass NH

I am not saying that it would have been easy or that DR could have done it

DR had to wait till SPs tyres were very messed up before he could pass him.

 

NO alternative pit strategy within the window RBR had was going to prevent what happened

SV needed to be right up SPs tail pipe when DR came back out and he was not.

That is a failing of SV and his race engineer

 

Having said that...

It was a minuscule failing

the difference between DRs first win and ending up 3rd was hair line

 

Little can be taken out of this race other than DR did well to take advantage of a tiny opportunity

Many drivers miss them.

MW was a shocker for missing the small chances... damn he was bad a grabbing the big chances. 

 

 

P.S. there was not even a shadow of a team order, instruction, mention, hint or whisper of RBR telling SV to back off DR for any other reason that to improve SVs race. and SV ignored the advice anyway (you need 1.5-2s gap to be in clear air)



#3181 Exb

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:19

SVs chance at the win was lost when he failed to pass NH
I am not saying that it would have been easy or that DR could have done it
DR had to wait till SPs tyres were very messed up before he could pass him.
 NO alternative pit strategy within the window RBR had was going to prevent what happened
SV needed to be right up SPs tail pipe when DR came back out and he was not.

 

Pretty much what you said - from the link @icecream posted Sebs outlap was slow compared to what Daniel was able to do (1.22.0 compared to Dans 1.21.2) - an extra 0.8 seconds may have kept him ahead.

Just to add Segio had brake problems and not tyre issues at the end which helped both Red Bulls get past, otherwise I don't think they would have done as the FI was just too quick in a straight line.



#3182 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:05

I think he's gets a nickel, a popsicle and a Manhattan apartment.

So you are saying that he makes more than Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton combined? Sweet!



#3183 Melbourne Park

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:25

Thanks, and I found the Forix gaps, by reloading.

 

After the first pitstop, It turned out that while Seb driving the pants off his car, he was not able to overtake.

 

Meanwhle Dan kept a gap to the car in front of him - a couple of seconds for many laps.

 

So, Dan's tyres were always going to be good.

 

If Seb could have passed, it would have been worth it. But he could not.

 

 

Now ... they brought in Seb because he was sitting behind the Hulk.

 

The distance behind the leader lap 33: (please exuse any possible Typo errors tidying up these figures)

Lap 33

3. PER 24.228

4. HUL 25.491

5. VET 25.953

6. BOT 26.715

7. RIC 27.464

Lap 34:

3. HUL 27.216 4.

VET 27.701

5. BOT 28.115

6. RIC 28.911

Lap 35:

3. HUL 28.313

4. VET 29.040

5. RIC 30.252

6. MAS 33.497

Lap 36:

3. HUL 29.413

4. RIC 30.459

5. MAS 33.868

6. ALO 39.533

7. VER 45.661

Pit VET 45.893

Lap 37:

3. HUL 27.232

4. MAS 31.266

5. ALO 37.260

Pit RIC 43.519

7. VER 43.796

8. PER 44.254

9. VET 45.834

Lap 38:

3. HUL 25.014

4. MAS 27.953

5. ALO 33.972

6. VER 41.048

7. PER 41.446

8. RIC 42.100

9. VET 42.567

 

 

 

The situation was clear: Ricciardo was charging up to Sebastian.

 

Who in fact was falling further behind Hulkenberg. Pretty soon, Dan would have been been on Seb's tail.

 

If the team had of brought Dan in then, he would have likely undercut Sebastian. So they brought in Seb. If they had of done a Mark Webber ( it did happen ) out there for a few more laps behind Hulk, then Seb would have ended up in front of Dan. But they brought Dan in, and Dan was charging because he had kept his tyres fresher, due to maintaining a gap and not trying to pass anyone.

 

Dan's outlap was good too ... I don't think the gap of 1.5 seconds to Perez in front is enough to blaim traffic for Seb's outlap, but maybe there were other cars around. Not sure ...

 

If one wants to credit Dan, he did a couple of things right:

He saved his tyres;

He drove very quickly at the end of his stint;

He had a good outlap;

He had the team support him.

 

 

Now ... if the team had of treated Seb as they should - as the number one driver - then they'd have left Dan behind Hulkenberg, and then brought him in when he could not come out in front of Seb. And Seb may have won the race. Then again, Seb may have come 4th and Dan 6th in that scenario. I say may, because Dan's overtake of Perez was high risk and he barely pulled it off, and probably the fastest car out there at the end of the race was Massa's. If Williams had RBR's pitstop times, my quick look at the times and gaps showed that Massa might have won it. RBR get a huge benefit from their pitstops. What a strange competition it really is ...

 

I should say too, that if the RBR could overtake on the straights with its hopeless lawn mower engined Renault, then Seb in the previous scenario, would have won the race.  But that is meaningless, because who knows how Dan would drive if the RBR had straight line overtaking capability?

 

IMO, it's tougher to win a WDC without heavily favouring the one driver.

 

The most interesting race of the year so far IMO.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 11 June 2014 - 02:45.


#3184 Melbourne Park

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:49

I don't think thats true - Sebs in-lap was slow due to him being right up behind Hulkenberg and unable to run at the pace the Red Bull could go, it was impossible for him to go quicker, once Vettel stopped it gave Daniel a couple of seconds gap (where Seb had been) to use the pace of the Red Bull to close up behind Hulk (nothing extraordinary really). It was Vettels out lap that cost him position. Vettels tyres were only about 20 laps old, he then ran 35 laps on the 3rd set - the entire stint behind other cars and got to the end OK.

 

Except that Seb fell further behind Hulk in his pre pit lap. He fell further behind Hulk - look at the times. Meanwhile, Dan was tearing up on him. If they had left Seb there, Dan would have been sitting straight behind Seb. And for confirmation, Seb radioed in that his tyres were gone.

 

Meanwhile, Dan closed two seconds on Hulk in a couple of laps.

 

As far as the tyre use in the last stint: the tyres wear less as the race progresses, due to the large amount of rubber deposited on the track. Also the cars are lighter in the last stint, due to having less fuel, which also diminishes tyre wear.

 

With respect - last stint tyre wear doesn't indicate tyre wear on the same compumd tyres but with different track conditions and different fuel loads  - & IMO!!


Edited by Melbourne Park, 11 June 2014 - 02:54.


#3185 Ricciardo2014

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:16

The more times I look at and listen to Seb's call for strategy, the more I'm convinced he couldn't get past, and was asking the team to do something so he wouldn't hear the "Daniel is faster than you" message.

#3186 Thomas99

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:29

The more times I look at and listen to Seb's call for strategy, the more I'm convinced he couldn't get past, and was asking the team to do something so he wouldn't hear the "Daniel is faster than you" message.

 

There was a car inbetween Vettel and Ricciardo for most of that time, Im pretty sure it was a Williams, maybe Bottas. Then it pitted a couple of laps before Seb did and you could tell Dan just opened the warpath at that point and was going to attack Vettel. Vettel took the undercut and it lost him the race.

 

I dont get why people are throwing around conspiracies and blaming Red Bull, Vettel asked to pit and they gave him preference. He still lost.



#3187 bourbon

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:40

Thanks, and I found the Forix gaps, by reloading.

 

After the first pitstop, It turned out that while Seb driving the pants off his car, he was not able to overtake.

 

Meanwhle Dan kept a gap to the car in front of him - a couple of seconds for many laps.

 

So, Dan's tyres were always going to be good.

 

If Seb could have passed, it would have been worth it. But he could not.

 

 

Now ... they brought in Seb because he was sitting behind the Hulk.

 

The distance behind the leader lap 33: (please exuse any possible Typo errors tidying up these figures)

Lap 33

3. PER 24.228

4. HUL 25.491

5. VET 25.953

6. BOT 26.715

7. RIC 27.464

Lap 34:

3. HUL 27.216 4.

VET 27.701

5. BOT 28.115

6. RIC 28.911

Lap 35:

3. HUL 28.313

4. VET 29.040

5. RIC 30.252

6. MAS 33.497

Lap 36:

3. HUL 29.413

4. RIC 30.459

5. MAS 33.868

6. ALO 39.533

7. VER 45.661

Pit VET 45.893

Lap 37:

3. HUL 27.232

4. MAS 31.266

5. ALO 37.260

Pit RIC 43.519

7. VER 43.796

8. PER 44.254

9. VET 45.834

Lap 38:

3. HUL 25.014

4. MAS 27.953

5. ALO 33.972

6. VER 41.048

7. PER 41.446

8. RIC 42.100

9. VET 42.567

 

 

 

The situation was clear: Ricciardo was charging up to Sebastian.

 

Who in fact was falling further behind Hulkenberg. Pretty soon, Dan would have been been on Seb's tail.

 

If the team had of brought Dan in then, he would have likely undercut Sebastian. So they brought in Seb. If they had of done a Mark Webber ( it did happen ) out there for a few more laps behind Hulk, then Seb would have ended up in front of Dan. But they brought Dan in, and Dan was charging because he had kept his tyres fresher, due to maintaining a gap and not trying to pass anyone.

 

Dan's outlap was good too ... I don't think the gap of 1.5 seconds to Perez in front is enough to blaim traffic for Seb's outlap, but maybe there were other cars around. Not sure ...

 

If one wants to credit Dan, he did a couple of things right:

He saved his tyres;

He drove very quickly at the end of his stint;

He had a good outlap;

He had the team support him.

 

 

Now ... if the team had of treated Seb as they should - as the number one driver - then they'd have left Dan behind Hulkenberg, and then brought him in when he could not come out in front of Seb. And Seb may have won the race. Then again, Seb may have come 4th and Dan 6th in that scenario. I say may, because Dan's overtake of Perez was high risk and he barely pulled it off, and probably the fastest car out there at the end of the race was Massa's. If Williams had RBR's pitstop times, my quick look at the times and gaps showed that Massa might have won it. RBR get a huge benefit from their pitstops. What a strange competition it really is ...

 

I should say too, that if the RBR could overtake on the straights with its hopeless lawn mower engined Renault, then Seb in the previous scenario, would have won the race.  But that is meaningless, because who knows how Dan would drive if the RBR had straight line overtaking capability?

 

IMO, it's tougher to win a WDC without heavily favouring the one driver.

 

The most interesting race of the year so far IMO.

 

 

Great objective post - except the bit in bold, which is nonsense.  I don't care if Seb is a 100 X WDC - he has to race and earn his reward.  That is the problem with Ferrari/RBR at present.  You don't have #1 drivers and you don't try to control what is going on between your drivers on track unless and until they pull a Suzuka 89.   What should have happened was Dan gets the lead (as he did) and Seb challenges him for the position as he initially set out to do.  That's racing.

 

Anyway, I'm tired of discussing this.  I mainly just wanted to give a :up: to your post (except the bolded bit).



#3188 Ricciardo2014

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:40

Yeah it was only a few corners after Bottas pitted that Seb said, "Be smart in terms of strategy".

No coincidence that Dan was right up his arse at that moment and lapping quicker.

#3189 apoka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:51

Yeah it was only a few corners after Bottas pitted that Seb said, "Be smart in terms of strategy".

No coincidence that Dan was right up his arse at that moment and lapping quicker.

 

If there is a slow car in front of your team mate, of course you are closing in. I don't even think Ric was pushing there - just going a bit faster than the cars in front of him and conserving tyres. He was only 0.4s faster than Hulk on much older tyres and slower than Massa on only slightly newer tyres. I noticed that Ric can be very patient in races, driving under the potential of the car for quite a few laps to obtain strategic benefits and so far this payed off. That's what I already thought right away when Vettel got stuck behind Hulkenberg: In current F1 it is often better to be a little behind but in free air instead of being stuck in traffic and risking your tyres in overtaking attempts. 



#3190 skc

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:01

Thanks, and I found the Forix gaps, by reloading.

 

After the first pitstop, It turned out that while Seb driving the pants off his car, he was not able to overtake.

 

Meanwhle Dan kept a gap to the car in front of him - a couple of seconds for many laps.

 

So, Dan's tyres were always going to be good.

 

If Seb could have passed, it would have been worth it. But he could not.

 

 

Now ... they brought in Seb because he was sitting behind the Hulk.

 

The distance behind the leader lap 33: (please exuse any possible Typo errors tidying up these figures)

Lap 33

3. PER 24.228

4. HUL 25.491

5. VET 25.953

6. BOT 26.715

7. RIC 27.464

Lap 34:

3. HUL 27.216 4.

VET 27.701

5. BOT 28.115

6. RIC 28.911

Lap 35:

3. HUL 28.313

4. VET 29.040

5. RIC 30.252

6. MAS 33.497

Lap 36:

3. HUL 29.413

4. RIC 30.459

5. MAS 33.868

6. ALO 39.533

7. VER 45.661

Pit VET 45.893

Lap 37:

3. HUL 27.232

4. MAS 31.266

5. ALO 37.260

Pit RIC 43.519

7. VER 43.796

8. PER 44.254

9. VET 45.834

Lap 38:

3. HUL 25.014

4. MAS 27.953

5. ALO 33.972

6. VER 41.048

7. PER 41.446

8. RIC 42.100

9. VET 42.567

 

 

 

The situation was clear: Ricciardo was charging up to Sebastian.

 

Who in fact was falling further behind Hulkenberg. Pretty soon, Dan would have been been on Seb's tail.

 

If the team had of brought Dan in then, he would have likely undercut Sebastian. So they brought in Seb. If they had of done a Mark Webber ( it did happen ) out there for a few more laps behind Hulk, then Seb would have ended up in front of Dan. But they brought Dan in, and Dan was charging because he had kept his tyres fresher, due to maintaining a gap and not trying to pass anyone.

 

Dan's outlap was good too ... I don't think the gap of 1.5 seconds to Perez in front is enough to blaim traffic for Seb's outlap, but maybe there were other cars around. Not sure ...

 

If one wants to credit Dan, he did a couple of things right:

He saved his tyres;

He drove very quickly at the end of his stint;

He had a good outlap;

He had the team support him.

 

 

Now ... if the team had of treated Seb as they should - as the number one driver - then they'd have left Dan behind Hulkenberg, and then brought him in when he could not come out in front of Seb. And Seb may have won the race. Then again, Seb may have come 4th and Dan 6th in that scenario. I say may, because Dan's overtake of Perez was high risk and he barely pulled it off, and probably the fastest car out there at the end of the race was Massa's. If Williams had RBR's pitstop times, my quick look at the times and gaps showed that Massa might have won it. RBR get a huge benefit from their pitstops. What a strange competition it really is ...

 

I should say too, that if the RBR could overtake on the straights with its hopeless lawn mower engined Renault, then Seb in the previous scenario, would have won the race.  But that is meaningless, because who knows how Dan would drive if the RBR had straight line overtaking capability?

 

IMO, it's tougher to win a WDC without heavily favouring the one driver.

 

The most interesting race of the year so far IMO.

 

Nice analysis. And it's great to see that the drivers are treated equally at Redbull  :up:

 

Dan simply saw the gap and took it, yes there was some good fortune in it because Dan himself said that Seb came back out into traffic which meant he had a chance to get out in front and he did.



#3191 Melbourne Park

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:13

If there is a slow car in front of your team mate, of course you are closing in. I don't even think Ric was pushing there - just going a bit faster than the cars in front of him and conserving tyres. He was only 0.4s faster than Hulk on much older tyres and slower than Massa on only slightly newer tyres. I noticed that Ric can be very patient in races, driving under the potential of the car for quite a few laps to obtain strategic benefits and so far this payed off. That's what I already thought right away when Vettel got stuck behind Hulkenberg: In current F1 it is often better to be a little behind but in free air instead of being stuck in traffic and risking your tyres in overtaking attempts. 

 

Yep.

 

The team however did say they were surprised by Dan's pace in that last lap.

 

Sebs won a lot of races by getting out in clean air. He's also been good at overtaking IMO. But the game this year is very different in the current RB car. This race the RBRs had a hare (Seb) and a toroise (Dan). The race was as surprising as the nursery tale. And both tales are now favourites of mine.

 

Shame Renault can't fix the engine though ...



#3192 Exb

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:46

Now ... they brought in Seb because he was sitting behind the Hulk.

 

The distance behind the leader lap 33: (please exuse any possible Typo errors tidying up these figures)

 

Lap 34:

3. HUL 27.216 4.

VET 27.701

5. BOT 28.115

6. RIC 28.911

Lap 35:

3. HUL 28.313

4. VET 29.040

5. RIC 30.252

6. MAS 33.497

 

The situation was clear: Ricciardo was charging up to Sebastian.

 

Who in fact was falling further behind Hulkenberg. Pretty soon, Dan would have been been on Seb's tail.

 

If the team had of brought Dan in then, he would have likely undercut Sebastian. So they brought in Seb. If they had of done a Mark Webber ( it did happen ) out there for a few more laps behind Hulk, then Seb would have ended up in front of Dan. But they brought Dan in, and Dan was charging because he had kept his tyres fresher, due to maintaining a gap and not trying to pass anyone.

 

Dan's outlap was good too ... I don't think the gap of 1.5 seconds to Perez in front is enough to blaim traffic for Seb's outlap, but maybe there were other cars around. Not sure ...

 

Well we have different opinions and that's fine. I don't believe Vettel had tyre trouble - he lost 0.2 seconds to be 0.7 behind over the line on lap 35 but that could easily be due to a slow exit from previous corner and during the next lap (and just before he pitted) he had closed up to 0.5 behind again (according to FOM graphics on BBC I-player anyway  ;) ).

Those timings you posted are slightly confusing with the fact the leaders (Mercs) suddenly started losing 2 seconds a lap to the others around lap 36 - certainly doesn't help with the analysis except to look at gaps between cars rather than the leaders. Both Red Bulls would have been able to run significantly faster had the slow cars not been in their way, and when both cars are together held up in traffic and then they pit, dropping them back into slow traffic - its always going to be a role of the dice as to which one comes out ahead. Vettel also had a slowish outlap - he was over a second behind Perez so if he could have caught up to him he probably would have kept the lead, Ricciardo's outlap was 0.8 seconds faster than Vettels (although he had DRS for his which would help make it quicker and Vettel didn't as he was too far behind Perez). The combination of Ricciardo having a few seconds clean air (due to Bottas and then Vettel pitting from in-front of him) to do a quick in-lap and Vettel not doing a good outlap was enough to switch positions, no conspiracy from Red Bull and Daniel grabbing his chance with both hands when the opportunity arose, which is very good to see.


Edited by Exb, 11 June 2014 - 06:52.


#3193 v@sh

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:58

Now ... they brought in Seb because he was sitting behind the Hulk.

 

If the team had of brought Dan in then, he would have likely undercut Sebastian.

 

I disagree with both points there.

 

They brought in Seb to cover off Bottas's undercutting Seb. Not just because he was sitting behind Hulk and getting nowhere. If he kept sitting behind Hulk when Bottas had the undercut then he would have lost out to both DR and Bottas.

 

Secondly, the team would not have brought in DR first because:

 

1) Seb was the lead driver at the time in the race

2) They needed to cover off Bottas

3) RB usually only allow the 2nd driver to get the undercut if the lead car has enough of a gap to safety still assume track position (and it benefits the second car) relative to their competitors and this wasn't the case so DR was never going to get the undercut first given where Vettel was and how quickly Bottas was catching him

 

Seb would have won it if he got pass Hulkenburg, simple as.

 

Sorry, but you keep overlooking the fact that RB had to cover off Bottas first before they worried about what Hulkenburg/DR were doing as Bottas was their main competitor and on the same strategy whereas Hulkenburg was on a different strategy and DR wasn't the lead car. There was no favoritism from RB.

 

From what I saw, the team did everything as they would normally to do keep the lead car out in front, it was just unfortunate circumstance for Seb with how the strategies played out but it was also a big part due to DR grabbing his opportunity by saving his tires (as he did in Monaco) before ramping up the pace when required.


Edited by v@sh, 11 June 2014 - 08:59.


#3194 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:01

While I agree that Red Bull favour Seb', Daniel is no muppet and even the likes of Horner and Marko have said he's the real deal, and that's why he was hired.

If you personally think Dan is a #2 then that's your choice.
I haven't heard a team radio message saying "Daniel.....Seb is faster than you" yet this season though, and until I do I'll give Red Bull the benefit of the doubt.


Only one example why I think Vettel is still strongly defended and consequently is still no. 1: he calls the car "Gurke" (cucumber) only after the seventh race into a troubled season (very low level of frustration management, btw) and Dr. Marko still defends him like there is no tomorrow.

#3195 seahawk

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:09

Vettel has been schooled by Ric in all apsects of racing.



#3196 sanjiro

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:56

Vettel has been schooled by Ric in all apsects of racing.

 

I loathe SV

Cant stand his face,

his stupid finger wave,

his annoying voice and his uninspiring driving.

 

With that in mind... you are wrong

 

Ric is doing a great job

I think we have not seen his best yet.

But to suggest he is schooling SV is silly

Schooling is what MW did to Pizza boy

 

If the places were reversed at this time I doubt anyone would suggest SV is schooling DR



#3197 Melbourne Park

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:00

Well we have different opinions and that's fine. I don't believe Vettel had tyre trouble - he lost 0.2 seconds to be 0.7 behind over the line on lap 35 but that could easily be due to a slow exit from previous corner and during the next lap (and just before he pitted) he had closed up to 0.5 behind again (according to FOM graphics on BBC I-player anyway  ;) ).

Me too - its fun to try and figure out what happened.

 

And to all - its the time between the drivers that I was looked at - the Mercedes were irrelevent.

 

However, the time was not the only reason why I thought Seb had become slow:

 

 

"Seb reported that he was in trouble with the tyres and was pushing us to look at strategy, so we went for the undercut to get him into a bit of clear air," explained team principal Christian Horner. "

 

It was Seb telling his crew that he was in trouble with his speed and tyres. The times merely confirmed it, and also, you push right up behind the car in front if your pitting, because being close wrecks the tyres, but that doesn't matter if your pitting. So the gap should have been closed further, rather than open up.

 

 

On another thing which I felt while watching the race - I felt that the undercut was not working. I thought several drivers when they came out, did not get their expected fresh tyre gain. I haven't looked at the times, but this was also the case in qualifying - the first lap on the tyres was not the fastest. I haven't time to examine all the lap times after pitting. Its not that easy either because when you start the lap, its after the lap commences, so one cannot compare lap times easiy ie Seb's first lap on fresh tyres compared to Dan's final lap on his worn tyres.

 

But ... my race impression was that the undercut was not very effective. It's interesting, because it shows how in F1, such little things can count an aweful lot.

 

I felt very sorry for Massa. Like ... his pit stop times were I thought a bit slow ... if he'd had another second, he may have won the race. I'd have liked Williams to score a bunch of points too. And the pit stop times are not driver related ... its very much a team sport, and while people carry on about greatness and all that, the margins between Dan and Seb are currently not large. And they have been in Dan's favour. But a simple change of tactics, and Dan could be made to look much slower. That is the characteristics of today's F1 IMO.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 11 June 2014 - 15:02.


#3198 Exb

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:30

Me too - its fun to try and figure out what happened.

 

However, the time was not the only reason why I thought Seb had become slow:

 It was Seb telling his crew that he was in trouble with his speed and tyres.   

On another thing which I felt while watching the race - I felt that the undercut was not working.

It would not be so interesting if it was easy to figure out what went right or wrong. 

Yeah, I heard Horner after the race about the tyres on the TV, but have seen another quote supposedly from Seb in a German article where he said they were fine so who knows? (I don't trust either of them to not spin it in their favour in hindsight - particularly Horner, maybe we will get a radio transcript as some point). I also think it is likely that Daniels tyres would have been better, I just don't think it was a factor behind the slow Hulkenberg. 

Totally agree about the undercut - Bottas (who pitted first in that train) actually lost more than any of them - he came out of the pits right behind Jenson and Kimi, and yet when the camara cut to Vettel coming out of the pits Bottas had dropped back quite a bit from the cars infront. Its difficult to know for definate though as a lot of cars were being held up anyway and not running at their true pace prior to pitting, and then often came out in more traffic anyway.



#3199 ollebompa

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:38

I read somewere that RB had problems with their GPS positioning of the cars. Maybe strategy became a guessing game( well more that usual) as for where they were or behind who they'd end up after the pitstops? Anyway it is what it is and i'm certain there where no funny stuff going on.


Edited by ollebompa, 11 June 2014 - 16:38.


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#3200 apoka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:05

I read somewere that RB had problems with their GPS positioning of the cars. Maybe strategy became a guessing game( well more that usual) as for where they were or behind who they'd end up after the pitstops? Anyway it is what it is and i'm certain there where no funny stuff going on.

 

Yes, Marko said that the GPS was not working correctly. For that reason, Vettel and his engineer were potentially not aware that the had to push hard to get close to Perez to avoid Ric overtaking him.