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Felipe Massa vs Valtteri Bottas 2014


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#101 RubalSher

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 19:16

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#102 kaisellgren

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 13:01

The problem for Massa is that when Bottas has a bad weekend, he's still right there behind Massa and taking points, but when Bottas has a good day, Massa cannot compete at all. If the trend continues, Massa will be in trouble as the point gap will get ever bigger. I do expect to see weekends where Massa is shining, but how often are we going to see those? We'll see.


Edited by kaisellgren, 12 May 2014 - 13:03.


#103 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 15:20

Next stop Monaco I think. Massa is always strong there.



#104 kaisellgren

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:49

Well, a disappointing qualifying for Williams. Massa has become a Caterham-magnet. Bottas couldn't get a proper lap due to traffic. Positions 13 & 16.



#105 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 13:04

Even with a proper lap, Bottas wouldn't have gotten into Q3. Shame for Massa, he looked the quicker of the two.



#106 Kyo

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 17:46

Massa!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

 

Every weekend I just wait to see what will go wrong with Massa. You are never sure if it will be his fault or someone else, but you know it is coming.



#107 bub

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 23:39

Car does not look good here. Can't really compare the two as Massa was very unlucky again but points may have been unlikely anyway.



#108 v@sh

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 23:44

Massa!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

 

Every weekend I just wait to see what will go wrong with Massa. You are never sure if it will be his fault or someone else, but you know it is coming.

 

He was a bit unlucky this weekend, Ericsson didn't make the apex and you can see the car slide straight into Massa. Massa was looking the quicker of the two, but you are correct that's for sure!



#109 HeadFirst

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 00:06

Next stop Monaco I think. Massa is always strong there.

Didn't he crash twice here last year?



#110 Flyhigh

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 01:05

The problem for Massa is that when Bottas has a bad weekend, he's still right there behind Massa and taking points, but when Bottas has a good day, Massa cannot compete at all. If the trend continues, Massa will be in trouble as the point gap will get ever bigger. I do expect to see weekends where Massa is shining, but how often are we going to see those? We'll see.

From all the races so far only race where Bottas was truly better without incidents was Spain. In all the rest Massa was either ahead or equal without adverse issues coming into play. Getting hit at the start in Australia by Koba while ahead of Bottas, Malasya (Tie) Bahrain ahead, (should have finished further ahead if wasn't for the team strategy)  China well ahead of Bottas until the 1 minute William's Pit stop, got hit by Alonso when fighting for 3 place at the start, Spain well beaten by Bottas throughout the weekend, no excuses there and now Monaco was looking the faster of the two and now race is nearly screwed by another Catherham,

Of course, this is non of Bottas problem, but don't try to up him by ignoring Massa's miss fortunes. Massa right now seems to be suffering the opposite effect he had at the beginning of his career, in which he was quite lucky to be picked up by Ferrari, when he wasn't doing anything great at  Sauber in his first F1 years. He just seem like a pretty good drive who got an outstanding opportunity to be put into a top team with the remaining winning Schumacher structure, that propelled the beginning of his career to achieve a lot of victories Poles and fight tooth and nail for a Championship That could have well gone to someone like Webber or Button, who are same level drivers to me or even a little better.  

Now he is performing well when on track, he is clearly faster and most of the time ahead of Bottas, but the results are not showing it due to one incident after the other and he just has to deal with it because it is part of Motor sports. . 


Edited by Flyhigh, 25 May 2014 - 01:08.


#111 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:42

Didn't he crash twice here last year?

Go read the news from last year as to why he crashed twice, then come back.



#112 Anderis

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:36

I only remind you, that in Spain, Massa also looked the quicker of the two up to some point. :p



#113 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 14:30

Finally some luck for Massa. I didn't believe his strategy would work, he was 11th after his stop, closing in on the guys infront of him, but passing wasn't possible. Bottas, Gutierrez, Magnussen and Raikkonen all had issues which gave Massa 7th. Oh well, he's had enough bad luck so far.


Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 25 May 2014 - 14:30.


#114 coppilcus

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 15:37

Indeed a deserved lucky weekend for massa...

#115 KavB

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 15:58

Really did not expect Massa's strategy to work. Glad he was able to score some solid points. He's had some bad luck this year and certainly should be closer to Bottas in points. 



#116 kaisellgren

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 16:04

I only remind you, that in Spain, Massa also looked the quicker of the two up to some point. :p

 

Exactly. Bottas said he has suffered a lot from missing practices (had to give his car for Felipe Nasr) so he had to do the final setup changes during the qualifying. Claire confirmed this. It was rather interesting to hear.



#117 Anderis

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 16:16

And, as was the point of my previous commet quoted above by kaisellgren, in the race Massa didn't exactly look superior to Bottas. IIRC, he was just one position behind him during the 1st stint but couldn't close the gap below 2 seconds.

 

But yeah, finally he got his portion of luck and scored 6 points more than the Finn.



#118 RubalSher

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 16:02

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#119 ed24f1

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 17:32

Indeed a deserved lucky weekend for massa...

 

The race was lucky, but I think Massa could have outqualified Hulkenberg, so therefore 5th was probably on the cards if not for Ericsson, so not sure if you can call it a lucky weekend on the whole as he still didn't achieve the maximum he could have.

 

 

And, as was the point of my previous commet quoted above by kaisellgren, in the race Massa didn't exactly look superior to Bottas. IIRC, he was just one position behind him during the 1st stint but couldn't close the gap below 2 seconds.

 

Of course it's impossible to say, but I feel as though he may have been just saving the temperatures/tyres/fuel a bit by leaving a bit of a gap, as there was obviously no chance of him putting a move on Bottas. We can see it paid off with some impressive times late in his stint.

 

Also, consider that Massa was still putting in faster lap times than Bottas on tyres that were 30 laps older, so I think you can defnitely make an argument that he was superior in the race.


Edited by ed24f1, 26 May 2014 - 17:40.


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#120 Anderis

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 17:41

The race was lucky, but I think Massa could have outqualified Hulkenberg, so therefore 5th was probably on the cards if not for Ericsson, so not sure if you can call it a lucky weekend on the whole.

There's no way to know what position was on the cards in that crazy race. If not Ericsson, the whole race would've gone differently. Massa could well end up between Raikkonen and Magnussen for the last couple of laps causing the whole story would be totally different.

 

In first stint, he was marginally slower than Bottas (there were no cars between them after a couple of laps), I'm not sure he would've outqualified Valtteri by a margin of several places.



#121 ed24f1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:13

There's no way to know what position was on the cards in that crazy race. If not Ericsson, the whole race would've gone differently. Massa could well end up between Raikkonen and Magnussen for the last couple of laps causing the whole story would be totally different.

 

In first stint, he was marginally slower than Bottas (there were no cars between them after a couple of laps), I'm not sure he would've outqualified Valtteri by a margin of several places.

 

Of course, it is a bit of a hypothetical, but I'm just saying that throughout Q1 he was faster than Bottas on every run, so I feel like he could have kept that up in Q2.

 

The race is a bit different because if you are just behind your team-mate obviously it's impossible to be faster than them, and I'm sure that he left a bit of a gap on purpose anyway. As I said, it's more interesting to look at Massa's lap times that were faster on 30 lap old tyres when both were in more space. But yeah, it's really difficult to make a judgement on them this round.



#122 kaisellgren

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 18:07

Fantastic job from Bottas. Almost challenging the Mercedes and beating Massa once again. Such a shame Vettel ended up in front of both Williams drivers but what can you do when the 4 times WC makes a perfect lap.

 

I hope to see BOT 3 MAS 4 tomorrow and both Red Bulls behind them. Williams needs those points!



#123 Okyo

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 18:12

Brilliant job by our boys! Constantly hundreds from one another! That's what i want to see!



#124 darkkis

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 18:16

Yeaah go Bottas! :clap: Williams should eat Red Bull on the straights so podium possible tomorrow for VB! Would love to see him get his first podium place! :up:



#125 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 21:30

Yeaah go Bottas! :clap: Williams should eat Red Bull on the straights so podium possible tomorrow for VB! Would love to see him get his first podium place! :up:

He's on the dirty side of the track, so I expect Massa to jump him and have a better shot at a podium.



#126 kaisellgren

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:50

Crazy move from Massa. Even though Bottas is on his 2nd season and still a rookie, it looks as if Massa is the rookie in the team. That was not a health move from him... 

 

And yeah, a disappointing race from Williams. Horrible strategy for Bottas, great strategy for Massa but a horrible move ruined it all.

 

Still happy to see Ricciardo 1st.



#127 Wander

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:53

That was such a strange race for both Williams drivers. At first it looked like they screwed Massa's race up on strategy. Then they definitely screwed Bottas' race up with the strategy. Massa got back into it, but made a mistake. Bottas brings home a disappointing 7th. Don't really know what to say or who was better this weekend. I guess yay to Bottas for bringing it home?


Edited by Wander, 08 June 2014 - 19:54.


#128 darkkis

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:54

Bottas would've definitely gotten podium if Williams didn't pit him to traffic... Did he have a car problem in the end because he fell so much behind? Definitely not his fault.



#129 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:54

This one goes to Massa despite his crash for sure. Dumb mistake by Williams to keep him behind Bottas for so long, Massa could have won this race if they let him through straight after his pitstop.



#130 Massa

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:55

Crazy move from Massa. Even though Bottas is on his 2nd season and still a rookie, it looks as if Massa is the rookie in the team. That was not a health move from him... 

 

And yeah, a disappointing race from Williams. Horrible strategy for Bottas, great strategy for Massa but a horrible move ruined it all.

 

Still happy to see Ricciardo 1st.

 

 

Perez have move to the left. Look at Perez car and the car in front of him, Perez was too much on the left. Massa did nothing wrong.

 

Grande strategy, if Bottas have let pass Massa sooner, i think Williams would have won the race.



#131 brr

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:57

There is no way this goes to Massa, after that stupid stunt.

 

Perez have move to the left. Look at Perez car and the car in front of him, Perez was too much on the left. Massa did nothing wrong.

 

 

Perez did nothing wrong being on the left.



#132 KavB

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:57

Stupid result by Massa. I don't know what he was thinking there. Williams also let the chance of a race win slip today. Those 4 seconds Massa lost in the pits were crucial. 



#133 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:58

Stupid result by Massa. I don't know what he was thinking there. Williams also let the chance of a race win slip today. Those 4 seconds Massa lost in the pits were crucial

No, those laps behind Bottas after his second stop ruined a possibly win. Massa wouldn't have stayed out so long if he hadn't lost that time in his first pitstop,



#134 Wander

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 19:58

This one goes to Massa despite his crash for sure. Dumb mistake by Williams to keep him behind Bottas for so long, Massa could have won this race if they let him through straight after his pitstop.

 

I'm not so sure. It might have taken Massa just as long or even longer to get past Hulk if he didn't get it gifted via Bottas dive.

 

This stuff is all ifs and buts anyway.


Edited by Wander, 08 June 2014 - 19:59.


#135 darkkis

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:00

This one goes to Massa despite his crash for sure. Dumb mistake by Williams to keep him behind Bottas for so long, Massa could have won this race if they let him through straight after his pitstop.

Bullshit. Bottas was faster in first stint, then Bottas' 2nd pitstop was badly placed so he got stuck behind the train. Massa couldn't even overtake Vettel even though he went very wide to hairpin. Then Massa crashed and you say this round goes to him? Utter bullshit imo.



#136 Ickx

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:01

Perez have move to the left. Look at Perez car and the car in front of him, Perez was too much on the left. Massa did nothing wrong.

 

Grande strategy, if Bottas have let pass Massa sooner, i think Williams would have won the race.

 

Williams is obviously shell shocked from the controversy during the early races. 



#137 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:01

Bullshit. Bottas was faster in first stint, then Bottas' 2nd pitstop was badly placed so he got stuck behind the train. Massa couldn't even overtake Vettel even though he went very wide to hairpin. Then Massa crashed and you say this round goes to him? Utter bullshit imo.

Bottas fan? Massa has clearly been the faster driver so far this season, but a lot of circumstances in Bottas' favour have masked this.



#138 darkkis

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:05

Bottas fan? Massa has clearly been the faster driver so far this season, but a lot of circumstances in Bottas' favour have masked this.

How can you claim Massa was faster I can't understand. Bottas kept Massa behind in the start, then got 2+ seconds lead before first pit stop. Yes, Massa got screwed in the pitstop, but so did Bottas in the second stop when they slotted him behind the train of cars. Then in the end Bottas apparently had brake problems and fell far far behind due to no fault of his own. Massa had the opportunity for podium, and he couldn't even overtake Vettel in to the straight when Vettel made huge mistake. Then he crashed.



#139 Molo19

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:08

typical inexplicable williams strategy



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#140 brr

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:09

Bottas fan? Massa has clearly been the faster driver so far this season, but a lot of circumstances in Bottas' favour have masked this.

 

The score is 40-18 in favour of Bottas after 7 races. I think its too far into the season to play the "But the other guy is just lucky"-card.



#141 Mithrandir

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:09

I am no fan of either of them, but reading that this round goes to Massa makes me laugh. This round goes to Bottas clearly, because he managed a simple thing: not binning his car. Massa just proved what people in touch with reality knew already, that he is a bad F1 driver. It doesn't look good for Bottas though; managing to not outclass a bad driver by a healthy margin means he is only average.


Edited by Mithrandir, 08 June 2014 - 20:09.


#142 Wander

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:09

Massa has clearly been the faster driver so far this season, but a lot of circumstances in Bottas' favour have masked this.

Not really true. Little between the two. Qualifyings 4-3 to Bottas. Massa has beaten Bottas in all wet qualifyings. Bottas has beaten Massa in all? dry qualifyings IIRC.

 

In the races they have generally been super close in pace. Both have had some poor luck, Massa a bit more, but Bottas has a lot more points.


Edited by Wander, 08 June 2014 - 20:09.


#143 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:11

How can you claim Massa was faster I can't understand. Bottas kept Massa behind in the start, then got 2+ seconds lead before first pit stop. Yes, Massa got screwed in the pitstop, but so did Bottas in the second stop when they slotted him behind the train of cars. Then in the end Bottas apparently had brake problems and fell far far behind due to no fault of his own. Massa had the opportunity for podium, and he couldn't even overtake Vettel in to the straight when Vettel made huge mistake. Then he crashed.

Massa was in front after the first two corners, but let Bottas through because otherwise they would have touched. Ever heard of keeping a gap to preserve tyres and prevent overheating? Come now, Bottas was nowhere today, he never does anything exciting, boring driver. Have a look at Vettel's mistake again and then come back. He still had better acceleration and defended the inside, so Massa couldn't pass him.


Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 08 June 2014 - 20:12.


#144 darkkis

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:19

Massa was in front after the first two corners, but let Bottas through because otherwise they would have touched. Ever heard of keeping a gap to preserve tyres and prevent overheating? Come now, Bottas was nowhere today, he never does anything exciting, boring driver. Have a look at Vettel's mistake again and then come back. He still had better acceleration and defended the inside, so Massa couldn't pass him.

Bold assumptions about Bottas being nowhere, yet Bottas kept Massa behind first stint. After this there is no indication about Massa being faster because they were on different tactics, and obviously end of the race Massa's tactic worked better, yet he blew his chance.
And as I said, Bottas had a brake problem in the end of the race due to no fault of his own.



#145 Molo19

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:23

he never does anything exciting, boring driver.

I'm not absolutely sure what your point is, but he has outscored Massa much like Alonso did in 2012. The only difference of course being that Bottas doesn't get the preferential treatment like Alonso (nor the strategic sensibility of Ferrari).



#146 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:25

I'm not absolutely sure what your point is, but he has outscored Massa much like Alonso did in 2012. The only difference of course being that Bottas doesn't get the preferential treatment like Alonso (nor the strategic sensibility of Ferrari).

What's your point with this comment then? Doesn't say that Bottas isn't a boring driver.


Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 08 June 2014 - 20:25.


#147 Molo19

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:38

What's your point with this comment then? Doesn't say that Bottas isn't a boring driver.

My point is that Bottas in his second season in F1 has outclassed well and truly a driver who was almost crowned champion in 2008.

 

If you're interested, Peter Windsor discusses Bottas and Massa in the latest F1Racing magazine. He suggests that the gearing of the FW36 basically favors Massa in such a way that Bottas' cannot use his driving style to its full potential and is in fact to forced to drive like Massa. Imagine if that weren't the case.



#148 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:41

My point is that Bottas in his second season in F1 has outclassed well and truly a driver who was almost crowned champion in 2008.

 

If you're interested, Peter Windsor discusses Bottas and Massa in the latest F1Racing magazine. He suggests that the gearing of the FW36 basically favors Massa in such a way that Bottas' cannot use his driving style to its full potential and is in fact to forced to drive like Massa. Imagine if that weren't the case.

:lol:  Go watch the season so far again please, then come back.

 

Okay, Windsor works for Williams then? Never knew that.



#149 Molo19

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:45

:lol:  Go watch the season so far again please, then come back.

 

Okay, Windsor works for Williams then? Never knew that.

I believe he used to, although I have no clue whatsoever what that has to do with anything.



#150 Hans V

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:45

A draw today as they're both useless. Neither can pass or take care of their tyres.. Even with a clear top-speed advantage they couldn't get past the high downforce, short-geared, Renault-powered Red-Bulls. Massa had traction problems out on the S/F straight but didn't once try something different, like a slower entence and an earlier exit. And at lest twice Massa tried to pass Vettel on the outside.WTF? Worst of all, both drivers seems to set themselves above the team. And the team let them get away with it.