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2014 F1 engines shifting at 10-11k RPM's...


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#51 Scotracer

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 20:52

Anyone got any data from quali and the race? They sounded to be revving quite high in quali but in the race today, very low. 

 

 

This data is from FP1/2 I believe. Shows what most people expected the result to be. 

 

Interestingly I heard a lot of short-shifting at the end of straights in both race and quali. The last 4th of the straight perhaps. Fuel conservation? 



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#52 morrino

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 21:33

Is that hud from FOM? The one I saw was different. Same info but more compact.



#53 6string

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 22:04

But if you knew anything about Turbo engines, you'd know that the power and torque curves tend to meet at a peak in this kind of rev range.


No they don't. The reason they are producing peak power at the rev range they are is due to fuel flow and turbo size restrictions. If they had unlimited fuel and fuel flow they would design the engines to produce peak power at precisely 15k.

Edited by 6string, 16 March 2014 - 22:06.


#54 darkkis

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 22:21

So they have fixed gear ratio all year.. I wonder how they shift / rev at monza or spa. :well:



#55 TC3000

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 22:33

So they have fixed gear ratio all year.. I wonder how they shift / rev at monza or spa. :well:

 

Not too much different IMO - you have to remember, that they have 8 gear this year compared to only 7 last year.

They will use 8th gear in places like Spa & Monza, to account for the higher top speed.

You will have noticed, that they only used 7th in Melbourne [perhaps some were using 8th in the race, but all the on boards I have seen, showed only cars which run in 7th]


Edited by TC3000, 17 March 2014 - 07:25.


#56 phoenix101

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 00:09

Shows what most people expected the result to be. 

 

 

Please. There was one faction who said the engines wouldn't rev above 11,500rpm because 8 gears made it possible to reach terminal velocity without doing so. Ridiculous from the outset, but they were insistent.

 

Another group of people said the engines would never go above 12,500rpm because of the fuel flow limit. In this practice vid, drivers can be seen revving close to 13,000rpm.



#57 pingu666

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 00:52

so what does the power band look like ~ 10500rpm to 15000?

we might have the fix for car hitting limiter while trying to overtake...

interesting too they dont seem to be reving them high off throttle during braking.



#58 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 07:10

Yeah they will never hit the limiter (on most tracks), given the 8th gear.



#59 chunder27

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:13

I think they might easily hit limiter, Bottas was pulling high revs in 8th quite a bit, but some of the other guys were only just getting into 8th, so I think some teams have gambled on being quicker on slower tracks, and some on being superb at Monza, Spa etc, Austin etc



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#60 thiscocks

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:32

What would happen if they did away with the fuel flow limit (but still had max 100l for race)? I doubt the revs would go massively higher?



#61 femi

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:46

I never start a thread if there exists one that would suffice, so I am glad to find this. Australia GP promoters are unhappy with the new F1 engine sounds.

Reading the story prompts the suspicion that this was ochestrated in the background by Bernie who doesn't fancy the 2014 engine notes:

 

http://www.gpupdate....ached-contract/

 

To the racing engine nerds out there, how can they change the 2014 engine sounds - which in this case means broading the freqency and loudness (db) without too much ado and not at the expense of useable engine power output?



#62 Scotracer

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:56

so what does the power band look like ~ 10500rpm to 15000?

we might have the fix for car hitting limiter while trying to overtake...

interesting too they dont seem to be reving them high off throttle during braking.

 

It's basically a flat line passed around 12,000rpm, probably tailing off towards the 15,000rpm limit. No point in revving higher.



#63 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:07

Not too much different IMO - you have to remember, that they have 8 gear this year compared to only 7 last year.

They will use 8th gear in places like Spa & Monza, to account for the higher top speed.

You will have noticed, that they only used 7th in Melbourne [perhaps some were using 8th in the race, but all the on boards I have seen, showed only cars which run in 7th]

Well, Williams used 8th constantly, they have a very short ratio compared to the others.



#64 phoenix101

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 15:54

I've reviewed as much onboard footage as possible. Force India was running the highest revs in qualifying, and Hulkenberg took the Mercedes engine to 13,800rpm on a couple of occassions.



#65 rodlamas

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 16:26

so what does the power band look like ~ 10500rpm to 15000?

we might have the fix for car hitting limiter while trying to overtake...

interesting too they dont seem to be reving them high off throttle during braking.

Melbourne has just some short straights. Teams with longer gears just like Mclaren & Mercedes were at almost 320kph in Q1 still in 7th gear @ 12,000rpm.

 

We will have to wait until the next races (Sepang, Bahrain, China & Barca all have 1.1+ km straights) to unleash the beasts.

 

In Monza this cars will go over 380 kph.



#66 rodlamas

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 16:26

I've reviewed as much onboard footage as possible. Force India was running the highest revs in qualifying, and Hulkenberg took the Mercedes engine to 13,800rpm on a couple of occassions.

Is there somewhere this can be downloaded?



#67 Scotracer

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 16:28

Melbourne has just some short straights. Teams with longer gears just like Mclaren & Mercedes were at almost 320kph in Q1 still in 7th gear @ 12,000rpm.

 

We will have to wait until the next races (Sepang, Bahrain, China & Barca all have 1.1+ km straights) to unleash the beasts.

 

In Monza this cars will go over 380 kph.

 

Just because they are geared for it, doesn't mean they can actually reach it. 380kph with 700BHP is not going to happen.



#68 pingu666

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 17:57

depends on the drag of the car, might be less this year.

the fuel flow thing is so you cant produce 1500hp for short periods of time



#69 Tsarwash

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 18:20

Everything has to be green, tree-hugging and touchy-feely these days. Loud engines don't fit for the ecomentalists. It's a fact of life and we have to deal with it.

Do you have to be so offensive? Petrol isn't getting any cheaper these days, and most people want their cars to run as efficiently as possible. People would rather spend their money on their families rather than filling up the car. What's mental about that ?

#70 rodlamas

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 18:25

Just because they are geared for it, doesn't mean they can actually reach it. 380kph with 700BHP is not going to happen.

Firstly, it's said that Mercedes has 740bhp on the ICE + 160 from ERS.

 

Secondly, the current Indycars do get close to 400kph on 600bhp @ 12,000rpm

 

Thirdly, they were at 340kph in Bahrain, where last year they were not doing even 320kph. At Monza we got 345kph, so we can imagine that 370-380kph this year is more than achievable.



#71 rodlamas

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 18:26

Well, Williams used 8th constantly, they have a very short ratio compared to the others.

Red Bull as well.



#72 917k

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 18:46

I never start a thread if there exists one that would suffice, so I am glad to find this. Australia GP promoters are unhappy with the new F1 engine sounds.

Reading the story prompts the suspicion that this was ochestrated in the background by Bernie who doesn't fancy the 2014 engine notes:

 

http://www.gpupdate....ached-contract/

 

To the racing engine nerds out there, how can they change the 2014 engine sounds - which in this case means broading the freqency and loudness (db) without too much ado and not at the expense of useable engine power output?

 

 

 

I would like and answer to this as well. I'm all for change but they really need to act on the dull sound ASAP, without pissing off the teams or giving anyone an advantage.



#73 TC3000

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 19:41

Well, Williams used 8th constantly, they have a very short ratio compared to the others.

 

Thanks for the heads-up

Yes, I do noticed, that Williams seem to have opted to very short ratio┬┤s - which surprised me a bit, especially in the lower gears.

Maybe, they plan to use their "joker" ratio change, just before the faster tracks mid season.

 

When I was looking at the on board graphic, like the video posted above, and doing some back calculating, you will find, that their seems to be some incontinences with the gears/rpm/speed shown at times. I wouldn't bet my house on the accuracy of the data shown, but it's the best we got, so far.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

As for the other questions, in a way "sound" is unused power, so making the engines "louder" would mean, you sacrifice some recoverable power, not sure the teams want this, unless the main regulations change, and thereby moving the goal post.  


Edited by TC3000, 17 March 2014 - 19:42.


#74 darkkis

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 20:02

I would like and answer to this as well. I'm all for change but they really need to act on the dull sound ASAP, without pissing off the teams or giving anyone an advantage.

So easy! Increase fuel flow limit, rev limit and slightly increase max fuel allowed. :up:



#75 Jejking

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 21:03

That will throw up a couple of new challenges for the teams... i LIKE IT.

#76 Scotracer

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 21:53

Firstly, it's said that Mercedes has 740bhp on the ICE + 160 from ERS.

 

Secondly, the current Indycars do get close to 400kph on 600bhp @ 12,000rpm

 

Thirdly, they were at 340kph in Bahrain, where last year they were not doing even 320kph. At Monza we got 345kph, so we can imagine that 370-380kph this year is more than achievable.

 

No, they don't have 740BHP from the ICE. That would require an unfeasible amount of thermal efficiency. Renault were pretty open that they were producing ~600BHP from the ICE. Cosworth basically the same. 740BHP is 23% more from the same fuel flow....?!

 

They could be 700BHP from ICE + MGU-H but then the MGU-K can only add another 60BHP per the regulations. 

 

Remember the 340km/h was using the extreme DRS flap. The drag levels at Monza will probably be similar. 



#77 rodlamas

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 22:01

No, they don't have 740BHP from the ICE. That would require an unfeasible amount of thermal efficiency. Renault were pretty open that they were producing ~600BHP from the ICE. Cosworth basically the same. 740BHP is 23% more from the same fuel flow....?!

 

They could be 700BHP from ICE + MGU-H but then the MGU-K can only add another 60BHP per the regulations. 

 

Remember the 340km/h was using the extreme DRS flap. The drag levels at Monza will probably be similar. 

Mercedes delivered a video pre-practice saying that their 2014 engine produces 30% more power for the same drop of fuel when compared to the previous one.

 

The 740bhp thing is gossip all around the web.

 

Wanna bet the top speed for Monza?