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#1 mmmcurry

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 17:01

If for example active suspension was reintroduced, would the 90's systems be of any use?

 

I know the cars back then had far different aero rules (flat not stepped bottoms, narrower, etc), but could say Williams' Active ride be used assuming they could fit it into the cars Alternatively would it just be easier to start from a clean slate?

 

Steve.



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#2 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 05:40

I think we've learned a bit more about active over the intervening years, for example millimetric radar or a camera system can be used to model the road ahead, which was always the biggest single limitation with active. So I'd expect the hardware to stay much the same butr as ever the sensors/software side would be the real difference.



#3 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 11:09

If for example active suspension was reintroduced, would the 90's systems be of any use?

 

I know the cars back then had far different aero rules (flat not stepped bottoms, narrower, etc), but could say Williams' Active ride be used assuming they could fit it into the cars Alternatively would it just be easier to start from a clean slate?

 

Steve.

 

I think that a number of components, computer software in particular would be much smaller and more powerful. As for hardware, no predictions on that by me

 

Henri



#4 Magoo

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:15

I think we've learned a bit more about active over the intervening years, for example millimetric radar or a camera system can be used to model the road ahead, which was always the biggest single limitation with active. So I'd expect the hardware to stay much the same butr as ever the sensors/software side would be the real difference.

 

 

+1



#5 desmo

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 14:20

Is it possible the banning of active systems in motorsport unnecessarily retarded their application in road cars? If the technology potentially exists for writing maps in real time of the surface ahead of the car and lifting (or dropping, I suppose) corners before they encountered perturbations, it seems possible you could have a "magic carpet ride" no passive system could hope to equal. Or would such systems be too complex/unreliable, power sapping, expensive and heavy to be practical even today?

#6 alexbiker

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 17:56

Given that the main reason for the full Williams active ride was aero - optimum ride ehight in all circumstances - what is the point for road cars?



#7 desmo

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 20:21

On poorly maintained real world roads I'd think an active car that could map the road ahead might be transformative in terms of ride and handling vs. any passive system. But maybe not.

#8 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 21:20

One area where a modern active system would be better is, oddly, ride on smooth road. If you model the road ahead you can decide exactly where you want the car body to be, and despite the best efforts of all the friction in the system, you can place it just so with a feedback loop. We got very excited about friction (and inertia) compensation with EPAS, but there we are on a  knife edge as your hands are very sensitive to 'motoring' which is the sensation that the wheel is moving under its own steam (which it is of course). I don't think you'd get that as much with ride.

 

Also with a look ahead system you could preemptively set the car up for an upcoming curve.



#9 Bloggsworth

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 21:54

The big problem, as I understood it, with road cars then, was the size and sharpness of the bumps/steps - You tended not to get the 4" high square step of a city kerb in the racing scenario, nor the 6" pot-holes, and the set-up could be pre-set for each circuit as opposed to the whole of the UK/Europe/USA & the rest of the world. 



#10 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 23:58

I read that an issue with the active systems was the weight and horse power requirements of the hydraulic levelling pumps.

 

If we could have road mapping on our cars to determine where the bumps were, could it also find pot holes and avoid them!



#11 Greg Locock

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 00:07

Re potholes, yes definitely. There is a problem with masking, but then the geometry of the tire also does some masking so it is not as bad as you might expect.



#12 mmmcurry

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 22:29

So sounds like start from scratch then. I bet it'd be interesting to work on.

#13 carlt

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:01

 

 

If we could have road mapping on our cars to determine where the bumps were, could it also find pot holes and avoid them!

I thought that's why we have eyes



#14 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 21:34

The big problem, as I understood it, with road cars then, was the size and sharpness of the bumps/steps - You tended not to get the 4" high square step of a city kerb in the racing scenario, nor the 6" pot-holes, and the set-up could be pre-set for each circuit as opposed to the whole of the UK/Europe/USA & the rest of the world. 

Active suspension that gives very low ride heights is racecar stuff. Public roads have all sorts of hazards, yet alone bloody speedhumps etc. And the practicality to get into driveways, ride potholes yet alone the occasional dirt road. 

Even some racetracks have a fair few bumps and undulations, within reason they are actually more interesting than baby bum smooth tracks. In Oz, Sandown, Lakeside, Baskerville, Mallala even Bathurst at times has its fair degree of bumps, patches etc. Many tracks [and public roads] literally move with the soil from day to day.



#15 mzso

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:05

If for example active suspension was reintroduced, would the 90's systems be of any use?

 

I know the cars back then had far different aero rules (flat not stepped bottoms, narrower, etc), but could say Williams' Active ride be used assuming they could fit it into the cars Alternatively would it just be easier to start from a clean slate?

 

Steve.

 

I think it never should have been banned in the first place. It wasn't more a driver aid then the springs are.

They wouldn't use the old tech. They redesign the cars yearly anyway. Electromagnetic recuperative active suspension would also fit well with the current rules. (Some efficiency gain, high power electric systems.)

 

Is it possible the banning of active systems in motorsport unnecessarily retarded their application in road cars? If the technology potentially exists for writing maps in real time of the surface ahead of the car and lifting (or dropping, I suppose) corners before they encountered perturbations, it seems possible you could have a "magic carpet ride" no passive system could hope to equal. Or would such systems be too complex/unreliable, power sapping, expensive and heavy to be practical even today?

 

It most certainly did. The biggest sin they committed is that they started banning a whole bunch of real-world-relevant technolgies in the eighties. Which also means they also banned anything that wasn't the norm and had a potential for a revolution. (4wd, diesel/rotary engines, more than four wheels.) They also banned clearly superior tech instead of properly regulating it, like wing-cars and turbos, making F1 technologically handicapped. Now with the new rules we partially got back to 80-ies tech from seventies tech...

 

Given that the main reason for the full Williams active ride was aero - optimum ride ehight in all circumstances - what is the point for road cars?

 

 

Smoother ride. Energy recuperation.



#16 CSquared

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 19:47

Very fortunate timing for this thread. They are indeed considering allowing it again: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113465

 

I know it's been said in this thread already that the hardware would be much the same, but would the systems still be hydraulic, like they were in the 90's, or could you make a system today that was purely electrical, especially with the batteries and energy recovery the current cars have?



#17 mzso

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:08

Very fortunate timing for this thread. They are indeed considering allowing it again: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113465

 

I know it's been said in this thread already that the hardware would be much the same, but would the systems still be hydraulic, like they were in the 90's, or could you make a system today that was purely electrical, especially with the batteries and energy recovery the current cars have?

 

Well according to wikipedia electromagnetic active suspensions were already developed. Some for millitary applications. (no referces though)



#18 TC3000

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:41

Very fortunate timing for this thread. They are indeed considering allowing it again: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113465

 

I know it's been said in this thread already that the hardware would be much the same, but would the systems still be hydraulic, like they were in the 90's, or could you make a system today that was purely electrical, especially with the batteries and energy recovery the current cars have?

 

http://www.bose.com/...nsion/index.jsp

 

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3259/



#19 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 21:36

The Bose system is a nice piece of work, if you start from the premise that you must use voicecoils and magnets as force providers. Similarly a newspaper makes a very good hat, if you limit yourself to compressed wood chips as a material.I am rather over Dr Bose and his merry litigious men.



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#20 mzso

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 22:17

The Bose system is a nice piece of work, if you start from the premise that you must use voicecoils and magnets as force providers. Similarly a newspaper makes a very good hat, if you limit yourself to compressed wood chips as a material.I am rather over Dr Bose and his merry litigious men.

Ridiculing doesn't actually work if you don't address any specific weaknesses/flaws.

Or a speaker background for a company means it's garbage by default? (aka zealotry)



#21 Greg Locock

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:57

I find it works just fine. Find me a good technical article on the Bose suspension and I'll understand it for you as well.



#22 mzso

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:25

I find it works just fine. Find me a good technical article on the Bose suspension and I'll understand it for you as well.

Really? Works fine = Ridiculing and comparing to a newspaper hat?

I don't need help with understanding...

 

Anyway this is what's available:
http://www.bose.com/...ed_learning.jsp
http://www.bose.com/.../the_system.jsp

http://www.bose.com/...p_lc_comp_3.jsp


Edited by mzso, 17 April 2014 - 15:44.


#23 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 23:59

Really? Works fine = Ridiculing and comparing to a newspaper hat?

I don't need help with understanding...

 

Anyway this is what's available:
http://www.bose.com/...ed_learning.jsp
http://www.bose.com/.../the_system.jsp

http://www.bose.com/...p_lc_comp_3.jsp

Glimpsing that where is the impovement over a different set of springs and shocks and maybe bars? . Whatever medium used to decrease body movement decreases ride quality, and makes rough roads a real chore. Yet alone the extra loads thrown back into the structure of the car. From the little I have been told about this system it decreases ride quality and increases suspension noise. 



#24 Catalina Park

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 00:42

From the little I have been told about this system it decreases ride quality and increases suspension noise. 

Should sell well to the younger blokes then.  :drunk:



#25 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 00:42

You do realise those are just photos and descriptions with no specific characteristics? typical bose.

 

Here's what would be interesting

 

what is the bandwidth

 

what is the maximum force in an actuator

what is the sliding friction?

 

what are the hysteresis characteristics like?

what is the power consumption vs road surface

what is the weight of an installed system

what is the likely cost of say 200 units ?

 

Those are engineering questions, Everything else is for gullible journalists and desperate fanbois.

 

The hardware is the interesting part, the control system is a solved problem.



#26 mzso

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 13:12

Glimpsing that where is the impovement over a different set of springs and shocks and maybe bars? . Whatever medium used to decrease body movement decreases ride quality, and makes rough roads a real chore. Yet alone the extra loads thrown back into the structure of the car. From the little I have been told about this system it decreases ride quality and increases suspension noise. 

 

Nope. Search youtube for 'bose suspension'.
 



#27 mzso

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 13:15

You do realise those are just photos and descriptions with no specific characteristics? typical bose.

 

Here's what would be interesting

 

what is the bandwidth

 

what is the maximum force in an actuator

what is the sliding friction?

 

what are the hysteresis characteristics like?

what is the power consumption vs road surface

what is the weight of an installed system

what is the likely cost of say 200 units ?

 

Those are engineering questions, Everything else is for gullible journalists and desperate fanbois.

 

The hardware is the interesting part, the control system is a solved problem.

Yeah, well one only gets those kind of data on marketed products. Until then the videos are quite convincing performance wise.


Edited by mzso, 18 April 2014 - 22:03.


#28 Canuck

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 19:50

As one would expect. Would hardly make sense to produce an unconvincing, clearly crap product marketing video now would it?

#29 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 22:02

Fanboi logic is a wonderful thing.



#30 mzso

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 22:05

Fanboi logic is a wonderful thing.

 

Waving aside something something based on nothing but "oooh headphone manufacturer" is just plain dumb.

 

You completely avoid logic. You just made fun of it without providing any basis. And then started throwing mud.

 

Not to mention completely missing the point. It was an example of a functioning purely electromagnetic system by TC3000.

 

It may be similar, better or worse than hydraulic systems.

 

And since current F1 cars pack a lot of batteries it could be a choice it can be made good enough.


Edited by mzso, 18 April 2014 - 22:28.


#31 gruntguru

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 03:14

To most people including myself, the Bose system seems the logical way to implement active suspension. Control signals from an electronic control unit get amplified and operate solenoids to push the wheels up and down. Same for electronic valve actuation (in engines). If the Bose system is all positives in terms of ride, handling, reliability, operating cost, manufacturing cost etc, it will soon be fitted to every new vehicle produced. Hang on - didn't I see that Bose video about ten years ago? Perhaps they are keeping that wonderful technology for their own cars?



#32 mzso

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:49

To most people including myself, the Bose system seems the logical way to implement active suspension. Control signals from an electronic control unit get amplified and operate solenoids to push the wheels up and down. Same for electronic valve actuation (in engines). If the Bose system is all positives in terms of ride, handling, reliability, operating cost, manufacturing cost etc, it will soon be fitted to every new vehicle produced. Hang on - didn't I see that Bose video about ten years ago? Perhaps they are keeping that wonderful technology for their own cars?

 

Maybe it's too costly or heavy, or energy demanding for internal combustion cars. Or car manufacturers just aren't interested and are pushing their own stuff.
Anyway formula one would be the best place to overcome problems. Plus the energy demand is a non-issue, since F1 cars pack a lot of batteries.



#33 Canuck

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 15:21

Too heavy for production but light enough for racing? Do I understand your position correctly?

#34 mzso

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:01

Too heavy for production but light enough for racing? Do I understand your position correctly?

 

Nope. F1 engineers have a lot of money and engineering resources to make it good. (Plus it's only one of the potential problems I mentioned. And there's probably more) If it's doable they can do it.

They use a lot of stuff that's infeasible for production cars. (Mostly cost wise.)



#35 Canuck

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:40

All this time I thought they were budget racing. Building budget wind tunnels, budget super computers...

#36 mzso

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:31

All this time I thought they were budget racing. Building budget wind tunnels, budget super computers...

Huh? Where did that come from?



#37 Canuck

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 00:09

Your comment that F1 engineers (by that I extrapolate that you mean F1 teams) "have a lot of money and engineering resources". The obviousness of that was worthy of sarcasm I felt. Basically I'm in a foul mood and felt like slagging off.

#38 Greg Locock

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:02

...and sometimes when somebody walks around with a sign saying "Kick me" pinned to their shirt tail, the temptation is just too great.



#39 mmmcurry

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 18:44

How much power does Active ride require? I remember reading that Williams stopped using it in '88 due to the lack of power from the Judd engine.

If it was allowed again, would the loss of power make the cars slower? I think Williams could use it in the early '90s as the Renault engine was the most powerful.

Steve.

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#40 TC3000

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 20:45

How much power does Active ride require? I remember reading that Williams stopped using it in '88 due to the lack of power from the Judd engine.

If it was allowed again, would the loss of power make the cars slower? I think Williams could use it in the early '90s as the Renault engine was the most powerful.

Steve.

 

It would depend on your definition of "active ride" an what you would want to do with such a system - IMHO

IIRC correctly, and I may not, it was reported that the Lotus F1 system used something in the range of 4.5-6 kW (6-8 hp) to driver their hydraulic based active system in F1.

 

in a thesis about an electro magnetic based system, similar to what BOSE want's to do/does(?), power requirement for a full sized sedan road car was estimated with about 2 kW peak power for the front actuators (4kN max. force required), while the RMS mean value is below 100W for normal city driving.

Actuator bandwidth was 50 Hz, in this study.

 

One of the main factors, is what you want your "active ride" to do?

If it is only to "level" the aero platform and maintain ride height, the bandwidth requirement would be low, if you want to compensate for inertial forces/movements (roll, pitch & squat etc.) it becomes a bit higher but it's still fairly low (<15 Hz) This would be a system along the lines of Mercedes ABC (Active Body Control), and to my understanding, this was the approach Williams took for their F1 system. on the other hand, if you want a  "fully" active system, which can control the movement of the unsprung mass/suspension and tyre as well, you need higher actuator bandwidth and such a system would require/draw more power as well,because it requires a much faster response --> less time to do work (move an actuator) = more power needed. 

 

Other considerations which have a affect on the power consumption, is the weight/mass of the vehicle and the max. suspension travel required. A full active F1 car, on a smooth(ish) race track would require less power then a off road race vehicle.

 

I would like to think, that if we consider active systems from a power density vs. weight and installation volume required point of view, a hydraulic based system seems more likely for F1, unless other solutions are "actively encouraged"/preferred by the rules.  

IMHO


Edited by TC3000, 21 April 2014 - 23:22.


#41 gruntguru

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 22:56

Surely the energy used by a suspension system is only that caused by inefficiencies in the system? If the system was 100% efficient any energy consumed would be helping to propel the vehicle.

 

Similarly, conventional passive suspension systems dissipate energy in the dampers. This energy is a "road load" and produces a drag on the vehicle. If a 100% efficient "active" system was tuned to emulate such a passive system, it would generate surplus energy.

 

Either way, an efficient "active" system would consume less energy than a conventional "passive" system.



#42 Greg Locock

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 00:42

"in a thesis about an electro magnetic based system, similar to what BOSE want's to do/does(?), power requirement for a full sized sedan road car was estimated with about 2 kW peak power for the front actuators (4kN max. force required), while the RMS mean value is below 100W for normal city driving."

 

Those peak numbers are low.Sales job.Now, it may be that a conventional suspension actually overachieves in terms of high amplitude damping, I've never been asked to set a car up for that. 



#43 gruntguru

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 00:52

Greg how does a system like Bose handle the DC, ie supporting the static mass of the vehicle? A solenoid will draw power to perform that task even though there is no work output. I assume they use a soft spring or similar?



#44 TC3000

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:37

Those peak numbers are low.Sales job.Now, it may be that a conventional suspension actually overachieves in terms of high amplitude damping, I've never been asked to set a car up for that. 

 

What would be your suggested numbers then Greg?



#45 Greg Locock

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:13

Let's talk non proprietary numbers. Passenger cars will break unless their vertical suspension path can handle 3g peak, so that's what an agglomerated suspension controller needs to supply. So for a 400 kg corner that's 12 kN ie THREE TIMES as much. now some of that is taken in the jounce bumpers, but at 3g, not much.



#46 TC3000

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:37

o.k. - I' familar with the 3-2-1 (or similar) approach to determine structural loads for the suspension components.

OTAH, I'm still not quite sure what your point is, in the context of the quoted 2 kW peak power per front actuator?

 

No one, not even BOSE to the best of my knowledge (but that's very little in regards to the Bose system), is suggesting/attempting to "suspend" the car purely by electromagnetic forces - it's no a MagLev. 


Edited by TC3000, 22 April 2014 - 18:49.


#47 Powersteer

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 14:53

that bose system would be using a lot of power once race aerodynamics and grip is involved. the fan ground effect idea would be interesting. i think if that were ever to return, they would mount it at the side rather than rear, blowing out wide instead of back. turbine engines with anti lag, think after burners, having its exhaust shooting out wide for blown floor effect via a couple of hundred horsepower worth of turbine puff. 4WD of course.

 

:cool:



#48 mzso

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:01

Greg how does a system like Bose handle the DC, ie supporting the static mass of the vehicle? A solenoid will draw power to perform that task even though there is no work output. I assume they use a soft spring or similar?

 

It was mentioned somewhere that the Bose system doesn't have any springs. Exactly what they're doing is unknown.



#49 TC3000

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:57

It was mentioned somewhere that the Bose system doesn't have any springs. Exactly what they're doing is unknown.

 

Not sure where this claim comes from, but I don't think, this is actually the case. (note the mention of "torsion bars" which is a form of a "spring")

It wouldn't make sense from a technical perspective either.

 

Bose-suspension-system-6_edited.jpg



#50 Greg Locock

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 22:31

A torsion bar is a spring as any owner of an old ranger or a proper 911 or millions of American cars would know. More technical flim flam from the PR department. The quoted report claimed 4 kN peak actuator force, I pointed out 12 is a minimum. factor of 3.


Edited by Greg Locock, 22 April 2014 - 22:32.