44 replies to this topic

[garagetinkerer]

For reasons whatever they may be, Sebastian Vettel is not quite as popular as some of his peers. Popularity is one thing, but of late i have read a lot of threads recently where people took him to task for various reasons, and not just question some of his actions, but even his skill. I thought it is perhaps better to do a poll to understand what some of us here think, and importantly why.

 

For what it is worth, my opinion of his, it stems from his performance. Over the years, Vettel has come up the curve as a talent, and has gone up a lot in my estimations. Every time he had a capable car, he got good results out of it, except a few occasions. Turkey springs to mind as one of the most glaring, add more if you think of it. From that he went on to win the title in a race where most, including me, had written him off. He seems quite reluctant to relinquish the number 1 on his car, as he has since then won 3 more titles, much to the chagrin of some of the crowd on the forums everywhere.

 

Is it the car? F1 has always been about car and the driver, and mostly the car. Fangio, quite notably and often switched to reputedly the best prospect, and once even between a season. I dare say, not many unkind words would be said about the man who won 5 titles decades ago. So why is it that Vettel is quite vilified to have a car that he did? It is something i quite don't understand.

 

So, take your time, state your opinion.

 

 

Pictures of 4 times WDC:

 

2010

http://blog.gotuning...bi-2010-finale/

 

2011

http://www.skysports...7240275,00.html

 

2012

http://www.telegraph...river-ever.html

 

2013

http://www.theepocht...s-championship/

 

note: I posted these pics in another joke thread (well, that is what it became), but hey, they seemed good to me, so i retained them here.

 

 

to mods: i guess this will bring all subjective Vettel talk to this thread and thereby keep others relatively on topic. I started this thread to get a better read of why and what etc. of the subject from a wider audience, but if this thread is found contentious in any way whatsoever, please delete it. Or notify me and i will delete it. Many thanks!

Edited by garagetinkerer, 16 March 2014 - 05:49.

[Kelateboy]

Hurry up and cast your votes before this thread gets locked! 

[Wanderer]

Now that's a great idea for a thread. 

 

I think he's in the current top three of most people so I wouldn't say he's really underrated. 

[Kingshark]

No.

 

Rosberg and Button are.

[chisharpe]

No Look Above.

 

We all know he is a very good driver and he copes with pressure extremely well. Germany last year is a great example. Just most of us are bored of him having the best car for alot of the season and dominating from the front.

[danmills]

Terrible thread.

 

Nobody wins in a crap car.

 

Facepalm time.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Awesome ATG driver. Wait till the car comes good...he may make a mockery of the grid again.

[ensign14]

 

Is it the car? F1 has always been about car and the driver, and mostly the car. Fangio, quite notably and often switched to reputedly the best prospect, and once even between a season. I dare say, not many unkind words would be said about the man who won 5 titles decades ago. So why is it that Vettel is quite vilified to have a car that he did? It is something i quite don't understand.

 

Because Fangio's team-mates included Farina, Moss, Collins, Gonzalez, Castellotti, Musso, Behra and others.  On equal terms with equal status.  And he consistently and continually beat them all.

 

Plus if you fancied your chances you could go out and buy a 250F and race Fangio with the same equipment.

 

Vettel's team-mate has been Webber.

 

Until Vettel takes on, and beats, a team-mate of equal stature, like Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost and Senna all did, I cannot rank him amongst the very greatest.

[Wanderer]

Because Fangio's team-mates included Farina, Moss, Collins, Gonzalez, Castellotti, Musso, Behra and others.  On equal terms with equal status.  And he consistently and continually beat them all.

 

Are you being ironic here? How often did he confiscate his team-mates cars when his own had troubles? 

 

Just one example from 1956: 

 

At the season-ending Italian Grand Prix, Fangio's Ferrari team mate Peter Collins, who was in a position to win the World Championship with just 15 laps to go, handed over his car to Fangio. They shared the six points won for second place, giving Fangio the World title.

 

Fangio didn't care about fame, he only cared about winning.

[ensign14]

From where did you get that quote?  It is hopelessly wrong.  Collins was in 3rd place, he could only win the title if he won, and if he did not Fangio would have won it.  The car-sharing was because Enzo wanted to win the Italian GP and the leading car was a Maserati.  As it is Fangio caught up massive chunks of time on Moss in the few laps he had.  And Collins knew Fangio had a better chance of winning - which is why he voluntarily got out.

[Wanderer]

From where did you get that quote?  It is hopelessly wrong.  Collins was in 3rd place, he could only win the title if he won, and if he did not Fangio would have won it.  The car-sharing was because Enzo wanted to win the Italian GP and the leading car was a Maserati.  As it is Fangio caught up massive chunks of time on Moss in the few laps he had.  And Collins knew Fangio had a better chance of winning - which is why he voluntarily got out.

 

The quote is from Wiki, and as I said, it's only one of several times where it happened. Just have a look at the Monaco GP from the same year and then come back and tell us again about "equal terms and equal status".

[ensign14]

The quote is from Wiki, and as I said, it's only one of several times where it happened. Just have a look at the Monaco GP from the same year and then come back and tell us again about "equal terms and equal status".

 

Car-sharing was a legit and well-used strategy in those days.  Look at the Argentine GP 1955 to see how they were hopping in and out throughout the race.  All bar the race-winner, of course.  A certain Juan Manuel Fangio. 

 

Back then though the thought was not of the championship - it was of winning races.  We retrospectively allot a much greater importance to the world title because of the continual brainwashing that Points Make Prizes.  Winning races was what made teams the most money - with lower sponsorship, prize money was much more important.  And there was no prize money for the title.

 

Every single race in 1956 Fangio was the fastest Ferrari driver.  Even the one time he wasn't the fastest, he actually was, the organizers made a timing error and mis-attributed a lap. 

[KingTiger]

He's obviously going to get booed, especially in Australia after the BS he pulled on Webber in Malaysia. I think he lost the respect of most F1 viewers at that point, what he did was beyond pathetic.

[Lights]

It's good that you added fans, because by the media he seems massively overrated. But no, I don't think he's underrated.

[Hanzo]

Awesome ATG driver. Wait till the car comes good...he may make a mockery of the grid again.

 

Yes... I think thats exactly the point here...

Edited by Hanzo, 16 March 2014 - 08:03.

[joshb]

He did his job in Malaysia- what's pathetic about that?

[Wanderer]

The car-sharing was because Enzo wanted to win the Italian GP and the leading car was a Maserati.  As it is Fangio caught up massive chunks of time on Moss in the few laps he had.  And Collins knew Fangio had a better chance of winning

 

If Collins was so much slower how is beating him (while taking over his car on two occasions) such a great feat?

[joshb]

Just a shame it'll be at least 2 weeks to see how he copes being a relative underdog

[Asterion]

Rosberg. 

[V8 Fireworks]

He did his job in Malaysia- what's pathetic about that?

 

You mean his job to follow team instructions?  Didn't do a very good job at that at all. 

 

Yes, Vettel is underrated.  A majority of fans do not consider Vettel in the same echelon as Nuvolari, Fangio, Senna etc , which may be very very unfair and possibly incorrect.

[krobinson]

If Alonso had joined RB for 2008 or 2009 (and he was offered the seat), Vettel would have 4 wins, not 4 titles and Alonso would have won the last 5 titles in row.

The quality of Vettel is shown by him almost losing 2 WDC in the clearly better car (and best car on the grid by far) compared to Alonso and losing one title in the best car in 2009. The most over-rated driver of all times.

 

 

 

[krobinson]

He did his job in Malaysia- what's pathetic about that?

You live in a delusional world.

[HoldenRT]

Underrated by some, overrated by others.

 

One of the best drivers on the grid.. up there with Alonso and Lewis.  Hard to say who is the best because they rarely race in the same team.

[Nonesuch]

I don't think he's underrated at all, he is just not praised to heaven and back as some of his fans and journalists seem to expect is warranted.

 

He's a good driver, no doubt, one of the best out there at the moment - but statistics are just numbers. Schumacher winning 91 races to Senna's 41 and Prost's 51 doesn't make him as good a driver as both of them combined.

Edited by Nonesuch, 16 March 2014 - 08:11.

[tifosiMac]

He's not popular due to some of his choices but we know how good he is. The lad can't have it all and for me there are just more likeable characters on the grid. I have respect for his talent, I just hope in this new era we have more racing and less cruising.

[jrg19]

Based on his usual team mate gap he would have won today.

[GoodSister]

I think quite a few fans 'rate' Vettel and acknowledge him as one of the best drivers on the grid. There are probably some out there who think he has had it a bit easy or think someone else could have done the same job given the right tools, but I don't think this is quite the same as underrating him. Perhaps under-appreciated at times, but not underrated.

 

I think Rosberg is a better candidate for one of the most underrated drivers by the fans. 

Edited by GoodSister, 16 March 2014 - 08:16.

[slmk]

Given RIC's race today, is it now possible to say that VET has been flattered by the EBD and WEB's poor fit with the EBDs?

[krea]

Given RIC's race today, is it now possible to say that VET has been flattered by the EBD and WEB's poor fit with the EBDs?

 

You should maybe wait some weekends without full of massive technical problems until you can claim that Vettel can't drive.

[1Devil1]

Given RIC's race today, is it now possible to say that VET has been flattered by the EBD and WEB's poor fit with the EBDs?

 

Makes sense, given Ros race today, Hamilton perhaps has been flattered by the mighty cars he drove before. You know Vettel couldn't compete today, though were is the logic?

[Wanderer]

Given RIC's race today, is it now possible to say that VET has been flattered by the EBD and WEB's poor fit with the EBDs?

 

Well, if you're really dumb then I would say yes, it's possible to take this race as an example of Vettels general performance without EBD.

[bourbon]

Nah.  He's definitely not underrated the overwhelming majority rate him among the top drivers on the grid and in the scheme of F1 in general. 

 

There will always be detractors - that is normal.

[meister]

Where is the poll option for overrated?

[Wlleiotl]

anyone who writes off a driver after one race needs their heads checked. alonso and hamilton have had entire years worth of bad races, yet they're universially lauded

 

people are too quick to try to be clever, thinking that they know better than all the evidence laid out in front of them, so they come up with a narrative that they are not going to be fooled by someone winning consistently, because they know more

 

sometimes it really is as simple as the guy who wins a lot is pretty damn good. its been true throughout history and it will remain true.

[Massa_f1]

If Alonso had joined RB for 2008 or 2009 (and he was offered the seat), Vettel would have 4 wins, not 4 titles and Alonso would have won the last 5 titles in row.

The quality of Vettel is shown by him almost losing 2 WDC in the clearly better car (and best car on the grid by far) compared to Alonso and losing one title in the best car in 2009. The most over-rated driver of all times.

 

All theory and no proof. It means nothing.

[ensign14]

If Collins was so much slower how is beating him (while taking over his car on two occasions) such a great feat?

 

Because Collins was a bloody good driver.  He twice took over de Portago's car that season because he was much faster than the grandee,  The fact that Fangio was in a different league shows how good Fangio was.

 

And if you do a modicum of research you will see that Fangio was ahead of Collins in every race that season.  Only mechanicals ever forced him behind.

 

All of which goes to prove the point that Vettel has never been tested by a world-class team-mate, so we cannot see how good he really is. 

[meister]

 

 

Is it the car? F1 has always been about car and the driver, and mostly the car. Fangio, quite notably and often switched to reputedly the best prospect, and once even between a season. I dare say, not many unkind words would be said about the man who won 5 titles decades ago. So why is it that Vettel is quite vilified to have a car that he did? It is something i quite don't understand.

 

 

 

 

because unlike pretty much any driver in history he has spent 80% of his career in a dominant car, which many believe has flattered him greatly.

[Massa_f1]

Considering he is a 4 times world champion he is underrated yes. The main reason being most people don't like him so they hunt desperately to discredit anything he achieves

[fatd]

Agreed with the poster that said he's more under-appreciated than underrated. That said I think out of all the perceived top drivers today, he's the most likely to lose his reputation over a couple bad weekends, as seen yesterday.

[Vesuvius]

One of the best drivers Formula 1 has ever seen and thats a fact shared by even experts. Currently the best driver on the grid.

[V8 Fireworks]

Nah.  He's definitely not underrated the overwhelming majority rate him among the top drivers on the grid and in the scheme of F1 in general. 

 

 

Do you not think that, as 4 times champ, Vettel should be rated above Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton, and instead on par with Fangio and Prost?

[linttu]

Vettel is as good as they come, no weaknesses. Fast, smart, works hard, doesn´t crack under pressure and

a great overtaker.

I would say he´s underrated.

He is still young, 26 years old, so there is much more to come from him.

Edited by linttu, 16 March 2014 - 08:40.

[PayasYouRace]

How you rate someone has nothing to do with liking them. I don't think Seb is underrated* at all, he's just massively unpopular.

 

*On the whole. There are some who underrate him and some who overrated him, as is the case with most drivers.

[sennafan24]

 

All of which goes to prove the point that Vettel has never been tested by a world-class team-mate, so we cannot see how good he really is. 

I can agree with your line of thinking.

 

But the way in which he beat Webber was most impressive. Look at 2013, when both Vettel and Webber finished, Vettel was ahead each time. That must be impressive by any standard surely. I myself do not rate Webber as "top rank", but he was still a decent enough F1 driver. For Vettel to have that much consistency against him counts for a lot in my opinion.

[SophieB]

From the rules:

"Threads can still be started to discuss issues affecting a single driver, but this must be with a specific remit or point of discussion, such as the possibility of them racing in a particular series or team."

Seeking people's general personal opinion's about a driver is about as non-specific as it gets. Closed.