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Hulkenberg v Perez


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#401 Kingshark

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:22

Put Perez in a dominant car, he would fall short

 

How the hell would you know? He's never even been in a top car, let alone a dominant one.



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#402 PNSD

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:29

Aside from the incident at Canada, Perez impressed me massively. He had moments last year too where he was extremely quick. This year is a good test for both him, and the hulk. What is winning it for hulk right now is his ability to consistently be quick, and race well. 

Perez lacks consistency and can sometimes be a little erratic.. 



#403 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:52

Yes, because what we all really, really want is yet another corporate clone spouting the team PR line and displaying absolutely no character or personality of his own.  Then we can all moan about how there are no characters in F1 anymore, not like the old days, eh?

I think he's just saying that Hulkenberg is very relaxed and well spoken when dealing with media. If anything, this allows drivers to actually show more personality. Its the more reserved drivers who seem kind of awkward in interviews and just spout boring, predictable babble, in my opinion.

Edited by Seanspeed, 10 June 2014 - 13:52.


#404 1Devil1

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:55

How the hell would you know? He's never even been in a top car, let alone a dominant one.

as you know Alonso is the best driver  :eek: I don't believe it -he is too inconsistent to handle this situation 



#405 Kingshark

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:09

I don't believe it -he is too inconsistent to handle this situation 

 

He's no more inconsistent than say - Mansell - and he handled a dominant car just fine.



#406 KTownDevil

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:39

'You're only as good as your last race' strikes again.

Welcome to F1  :drunk:



#407 1Devil1

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:12

He's no more inconsistent than say - Mansell - and he handled a dominant car just fine.

 

You are confusing me when did he handled a dominant car?  :well:



#408 sennafan24

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:21

as you know Alonso is the best driver  :eek: I don't believe it -he is too inconsistent to handle this situation 

Tough call

 

Again, when Perez has finished this year, he is 2-2 with Hulk. Two of his races this year were ruined by his own over-eager driving style, which would theoretically not be much of a problem in a dominant car (he would be operating more in clean air where chances of collisions would be lessened). Only problem might be that his substandard qualifying would land him in dirty air at the start of races (which might lead to more crashes)

 

I get your point, he is not as well rounded a driver as Hulk, but Perez could handle a dominant car quite well in my opinion. Perez's flashes of brilliance this year do underline how good Jenson still is though.



#409 1Devil1

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:36

Tough call

 

Again, when Perez has finished this year, he is 2-2 with Hulk. Two of his races this year were ruined by his own over-eager driving style, which would theoretically not be much of a problem in a dominant car (he would be operating more in clean air where chances of collisions would be lessened). Only problem might be that his substandard qualifying would land him in dirty air at the start of races (which might lead to more crashes)

 

I get your point, he is not as well rounded a driver as Hulk, but Perez could handle a dominant car quite well in my opinion. Perez's flashes of brilliance this year do underline how good Jenson still is though.

 

I don't think that flashes of brilliance, is a need when you for example would drive this years Mercedes, consistency is rewarded in this system, just look at the gap between Hulkenberg and Perez. It's not like Perez has these "flashes" every race, and is only behind in the standing because he crashed, no he is slower most of time than Hulkenberg, and furthermore more crash prone, on the other hand he has this rare occasions he shines, but people tend to make it like he drove the race of the century. He has his days, and can beat Hulkenberg fair and square, but that's all, the gap between those two will be bigger at the end of the year 



#410 sennafan24

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:50

 It's not like Perez has these "flashes" every race, and is only behind in the standing because he crashed, no he is slower most of time than Hulkenberg, and furthermore more crash prone, on the other hand he has this rare occasions he shines, but people tend to make it like he drove the race of the century. 

Hulk in the better all-round driver. I would not argue against that. 57-20 is a bit harsh towards Perez, but is partially of his own doing. They have had 2 race weekends each where they have beaten in each other fair and square. Australia and China, Hulk was better. In Bahrain and Spain, Perez was better.

 

Perez did not start at Sepang, so that is null and void.

 

Monaco was where Perez crashed at the first corner of how own doing. Canada he was ahead of Hulk, and again crashed on his own doing. If Perez was no so reckless, the points total might look different. In terms of pure race pace, they are fairly equal. In qualifying and safe driving stakes, Hulk is better. When I say "flashes of brilliance" I allude to Perez scoring a podium in Bahrain, and being on for one in Canada. Hulk has not come that close to scoring a podium just yet. 

 

I am not saying Hulk does not have it in his to achieve a podium (he clearly does), or that Perez is the second coming of Senna, but Perez has shown flashes in his career of being a great driver. However, his all round skill-set still leave a lot to be desired.



#411 seahawk

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:53

Hulk 6 seconds away from the podium in Canada - not close enough?



#412 sennafan24

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 17:57

Hulk 6 seconds away from the podium in Canada - not close enough?

That was the gap? Sorry, my head is a little hazy about Canada such was the carnage. A lot occurred for Hulk to get in that position though. Perez and Massa collided and Lewis retired.

 

Again, I am not arguing that Hulk will not get on the podium eventually, just that so far Perez has been the one who has scored a podium, and been in the position to piss one away.



#413 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 18:07

Perez needs to sort out his erraticness.

 

Hulkenberg has kind of fizzled out, but I guess we didn't get a true picture at the start with Perez having a collision in Australia and then not starting in Malaysia.

 

It's an exciting line up, beats every team bar Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari.



#414 Kingshark

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 18:55

You are confusing me when did he handled a dominant car?  :well:

 

Mansell was an inconsistent driver yet he handled the dominant 1992 Williams just fine.

 

Perez might be inconsistent but there's a good chance that he will handle a dominant car fine - like Mansell.



#415 Mauseri

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:22

Hulkenberg's race pace is nothing special tbh. Perez excels in that regard.

Perez is not great in that consistency, but when he gets it right he seems to be doing better than Hülkenberg. I think McLaren were wrong to sack him and not Button, although the margins were close.



#416 Dolph

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:51

Perez is not great in that consistency, but when he gets it right he seems to be doing better than Hülkenberg.

 

That's the same you could have said about Webber vs. Vettel. In his day when Webber got it right he beat Vettel.



#417 Gyan

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:36

Hulk in the better all-round driver. I would not argue against that. 57-20 is a bit harsh towards Perez, but is partially of his own doing. They have had 2 race weekends each where they have beaten in each other fair and square. Australia and China, Hulk was better. In Bahrain and Spain, Perez was better.

 

 

Hulkenberg had car issues which hampered him by .5 seconds per lap in Spain. I wouldn't file that under Perez's column tbh,



#418 charly0418

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:56

Hulkenberg had car issues which hampered him by .5 seconds per lap in Spain. I wouldn't file that under Perez's column tbh,

 

yeah agree, but I wouldnt file Australia as well as Perez had brake issues all weekend and Lambiase wasnt there that weekend


Edited by charly0418, 11 June 2014 - 01:10.


#419 seahawk

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:12

That was the gap? Sorry, my head is a little hazy about Canada such was the carnage. A lot occurred for Hulk to get in that position though. Perez and Massa collided and Lewis retired.

 

Again, I am not arguing that Hulk will not get on the podium eventually, just that so far Perez has been the one who has scored a podium, and been in the position to piss one away.

 

Even when Perez was running second, Hulk was 5-7 seconds behind him while on a different (alternative) strategy. So imho the real gap was much smaller than the track position showed. Without the Alonso move in the last lap, Hulk would have been fourth in Canada, so we can even say he had a bit of bad luck in the final lap as well.

 

Under normal circumstances the result would have been: 

 

1. Ric

2. Ros

3. Vet

4. Mas

5. Per

6. Hul

7. Alo

8. But



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#420 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:16

Perez is not great in that consistency, but when he gets it right he seems to be doing better than Hülkenberg. I think McLaren were wrong to sack him and not Button, although the margins were close.

I feel that Perez tends to have a habit of performing well at the right times. In Bahrain, where the Force India was at its most competitive. In Canada, on a gambled strategy. I mean, at Sauber, his podiums often came in situations like Canada, gambling on going a pit stop less than everybody thought possible.

And while there's merit to performing well in opportunistic scenarios, I cant help but shake the feeling that a lot of his best results were also partly due to that rolling of the dice. People use Perez's better 'peak' results as a sign that he might be ultimately quicker than Hulkenberg, but I think there's a bit more merit in being able to get these results on straight pace. Bahrain was an example of that, granted, but does being quicker at Bahrain really make up for him being slower at another track where the car is less competitive? It may well to some people, but I think its worth considering. Somebody can win a race, but if they score 5th place the rest of the year in a competitive car, I'll gladly take the guy coming in 2nd everytime, as they will clearly have been the faster, better driver overall.

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 June 2014 - 07:17.


#421 Krchan

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:45

Even when Perez was running second, Hulk was 5-7 seconds behind him while on a different (alternative) strategy. So imho the real gap was much smaller than the track position showed. Without the Alonso move in the last lap, Hulk would have been fourth in Canada, so we can even say he had a bit of bad luck in the final lap as well.

 

Under normal circumstances the result would have been: 

 

1. Ric

2. Ros

3. Vet

4. Mas

5. Per

6. Hul

7. Alo

8. But

You mean normal circumstances for Hulk. You forgot about normal circumstances for Checo. Without brake issues he would have been easily second, maybe even win the race.  :wave:  Just a reminder...



#422 klyster

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:58

Not really,  if we remove brake faults,  it would have been a Mercedes 1-2.

 

 

Unless we're being selective about it... 


Edited by klyster, 11 June 2014 - 10:59.


#423 sennafan24

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:17

Hulkenberg had car issues which hampered him by .5 seconds per lap in Spain. I wouldn't file that under Perez's column tbh,

Did that not come from a questionable source though?



#424 seahawk

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:27

You mean normal circumstances for Hulk. You forgot about normal circumstances for Checo. Without brake issues he would have been easily second, maybe even win the race.  :wave:  Just a reminder...

 

I meant with no driver making a stupid move.



#425 KTownDevil

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:43

Did that not come from a questionable source though?

 

Not really. Auto Motor und Sport ist one of the best sources out there.

 

Force India mounted both floors at the test after the race and Hulk's floor had a serious problem.

 

http://www.auto-moto...de-8376641.html



#426 Schuttelberg

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:51

I think, a lot of things that have been debated here are based on hypothetical situations. I'll just try breakdown here why I think Hulk is streets ahead of Checo.

 

Formula 1 is a high complex sport. When we're drawing such comparisons, we often indulge in comparisons related to driver history and by the end of it all, we have basically argued about ten different drivers, numerous teams, multiple championships and no conclusions. 

 

The main reason I think Hulk is better than Perez is his ability to understand what's expected of him and balancing it with racing pedigree but not overdoing it. When you're driving a Force India, you're expected of points. As many as possible, with as little dnf's as possible, specially driver error.

 

Nico's worst qualifying result is 11th and he's made it into Q3 four times. Perez has done that twice. Their qualifying results are 5-2. 

Nico's worst race result is 10th. Perez has not finished in the points twice. On points, it's 47-20. That's 27 points more. 

 

I've removed Malaysia from the equation as Perez didn't have an opportunity to race. 

 

Races where Sergio has beaten Nico are Bahrain, Spain and Canada. That's 3-3. 

 

This is where it gets interesting. In the races where Perez has out-raced Nico, it's not like Hulkenberg has been very far behind. He's been right in the frame, trailing Checo, but when Hulkenberg has his strong races, Checo is nowhere. 

 

From what I can deduce, it seems that fans have developed the opinion that Perez has a 'spark' that Hulk doesn't. I think it's bullshit. We all saw the Merc intra team battle last year and although at one point Hamilton had 0 wins to Rosberg's 2, it was well documented that Hamilton was slightly quicker. 

 

When you're racing for mid field teams, you rarely have a weekend where it all comes together and it clicks. A chance of a podium is few and far in between and even a dud would tell you that Canada was a freak result. If you talk of consistency, Hulkenberg smashes Perez, he's better at qualifying, he practically owns Perez when it comes to wheel to wheel action and race craft (pass on Magnussen at Monaco, defence of Alonso, Hamilton at Korea last year) and most importantly when he makes a mistake he owns up to it. Luck plays a part in every sport, so too it does in F1 and Hulkenberg's weekend may or may not arrive while he's at Force India, but, as he has demonstrated in these 7 races, he's the better driver over a longer span of time. 

 

As for his pace in Canada? His strategy was severely compromised with the SC car period as it meant that the SS tyre runners could stretch their runs which hasn't been spoken about. He only loses to Perez on saving tyres and it's not possible for any driver to beat his team mate on all fronts and in all sessions. 



#427 sennafan24

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:00

Not really. Auto Motor und Sport ist one of the best sources out there.

 

Force India mounted both floors at the test after the race and Hulk's floor had a serious problem.

 

http://www.auto-moto...de-8376641.html

Fair enough  :up:



#428 sopa

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:12

57-20 is a very significant gap. Pacewise they are certainly closer than the points suggest and Perez has had two contacts in recent two races, which for him have ended with the worst possible consequence - in the wall. Maybe you can say from this point of view he has been unfortunate. Perhaps this will make Perez more careful in the future in wheel-to-wheel battles, because that's what he needs to do now.



#429 Schuttelberg

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:27

57-20 is a very significant gap. Pacewise they are certainly closer than the points suggest and Perez has had two contacts in recent two races, which for him have ended with the worst possible consequence - in the wall. Maybe you can say from this point of view he has been unfortunate. Perhaps this will make Perez more careful in the future in wheel-to-wheel battles, because that's what he needs to do now.

 

He's not going to learn. I can say that because of the attitude he's demonstrating at the moment. I'll just give you a quick stat- 

 

After being signed by McLaren

 

He's raced in 32 races in which he's been involved in an incident 9 times. Even if you give him the benefit half of the times, which isn't true because most of these cases have at worst been 50-50 then you're basically saying that this guy's going to crash once in four times. I'm sorry, that's not the mark of a good driver. May be, he could have survived this in the 90's but in this era of F1 where competition is so cut throat, he's just a massive liability.


Edited by Schuttelberg, 11 June 2014 - 12:34.


#430 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 13:16

And Again, Everytime they have a fair race, Perez is Always beating Hulkenberg, he is overrated IMO

#431 discover23

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 13:39

Perez has more talent , he is just a little too impatient sometimes. He started behind Hulk and finished 16 seconds ahead of his teammate.

Edited by discover23, 22 June 2014 - 13:49.


#432 charly0418

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 13:57

I think Perez had the better strategy of the 2, but stil, he was definetly quicker today. Plus he had an amazing start



#433 RAGE12463

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 13:59

Hope Perez doesn't have any DNFs to end the season. I think the battle will be very close points wise by the end of the year if that happens. 



#434 Krchan

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:04

And again, Checo being a lot faster, and a lot more entertaining and exciting to watch. And now I would realy like your opinion: Is Checo such a fast driver or is the future WDC Hulk a little bit overrated?



#435 discover23

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:07

Again , Hulk has not done anything extraordinary since he joined F1 . His hype is because he accumulated a consistent streak of 5/4 positions. He does not even have a podium.

#436 charly0418

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:07

We're all going to the extremes again lets calm down.



#437 Brother Fox

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:08

Ive always thought (b)

 

Probably a good #2 at a top team but Im still waiting to see what would make him a #1

 

The batle is great though, a real tortoise and hare type thing



#438 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:16

Hulkenberg is pretty good thats why he is in F1 and I'm not, but he is highly overrated and boring to watch.



#439 jjcale

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:21

Again , Hulk has not done anything extraordinary since he joined F1 . His hype is because he accumulated a consistent streak of 5/4 positions. He does not even have a podium.

 

Put him in a top car and he is probably the champion ... like he was in every other series he raced in. 

 

Dont knock consistency.



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#440 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:25

Perez is not at all a bad driver. A bit too aggressive, yes, but talented. McLaren didn't really give him a chance,...



#441 IamFasterthanU

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:26

Have to say that perez is destroying Hulk's stock. In most of the races they've finished together Perez is on an average faster of the two. Even Brundle is not going gaga over how Hulk is sooooo good for the last couple of races..



#442 discover23

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:36

Put him in a top car and he is probably the champion ... like he was in every other series he raced in.

Dont knock consistency.

Maybe in a dominant car like redbull last year sure .. But in the Mercedes of this year he would have gotten murdered by Lewis or Rosberg. Perez instead would give Lewis a bigger challenge.

#443 charly0418

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:38

Maybe in a dominant car like redbull last year sure .. But in the Mercedes of this year he would have gotten murdered by Lewis or Rosberg. Perez instead would give Lewis a bigger challenge.

 

I disagree, I think he'd be similar to Rosberg. Perez has more potential yes but he's not ready for a championship car yet



#444 coppilcus

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 14:38

Have to say that perez is destroying Hulk's stock. In most of the races they've finished together Perez is on an average faster of the two. Even Brundle is not going gaga over how Hulk is sooooo good for the last couple of races..


Brundle has a crush on Hulkenberg and Button... every comment that does not compliment those drivers is an extraordinary sporting achievement from any teammate driver.

#445 Farhannn15

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 16:55

Either Hulkenberg has been overrated or Perez has been underrated and I think it's a combination of both. Both guys are talented and deserve their places on the grid. Hulkenberg is faster over one lap and they are pretty close on race pace but Perez can extract more from his tyres over a long stint



#446 Zava

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 16:59

Ive always thought (b)

 

Probably a good #2 at a top team but Im still waiting to see what would make him a #1

 

The batle is great though, a real tortoise and hare type thing

and we all know how that ends:

tumblr_n7du2oy2kz1s02vreo1_400.gif



#447 Dolph

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 20:27

Perez needs to finish races. If he can do that, then we'll get to see what the points situation is.



#448 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 22:25

And Again, Everytime they have a fair race, Perez is Always beating Hulkenberg, he is overrated IMO

Fair race? They were on completely different strategies.

Which is how Perez has pulled out the majority of his good F1 results. This is all nice and dandy in the midfield, but when you're at the front, you don't get the luxury of being able to gamble on alternate strategies and have to run your race straight.

#449 Zoetrope

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 22:50

Either Hulkenberg has been overrated or Perez has been underrated 

I think both are overrated.

Perez was overrated joining McLaren (when in fact he was matched by Kobayashi) and then when he failed to meet hyped expectations (McLaren having utterly bad season played a role in this) his ratings fell that majority were saying Hulk will have it easy. And it was so because majority also believed Hulk was something extraordinary.

How I rate these two is that Hulk is marginally better in every department. He is more talented, more composed, more consistent and also has more mythical raw pace. Perez has shown better overtaking, but it has to be said he had a car to do some on more occasions during his career. But the difference is not that big.

Of course, by saying overrated I do not mean they are bad. But as much as I claimed Perez wasn't suited for McLaren in 2013, I also think Hulkenberg isn't suited for a top team either. And I believe he still hasn't been offered a top seat for a reason.



#450 emmanuelrubi

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 22:52

Fair race? They were on completely different strategies.

Which is how Perez has pulled out the majority of his good F1 results. This is all nice and dandy in the midfield, but when you're at the front, you don't get the luxury of being able to gamble on alternate strategies and have to run your race straight.

 

Thats true, It wasn't fair at all since Perez started in 16 and Nico in 10.