8 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

I read somewhere that one reason the prewar German government encouraged motor racing was to develop lightweight high power engines as the technology could be adapted for aero engines.  Daimler-Benz and BMW produced several types of aero engines.  Did any of the Auto Union companies make any aero engines?

[Allan Lupton]

None of the four members of the A-U were aero-engine makers, but that doesn't mean that the technology wasn't used by a company that was.

I would say that there was little sign that D-B aero engines benefitted directly from that company's motor racing, but someone may prove me wrong.

[Vitesse2]

Auto Union didn't build aero engines under their own name, but they were associated with Junkers in a joint venture called Mitteldeutschen Motorenwerke, building Jumo engines under licence. There's a history of the company - in German - on Google Books:

Auto Union und Junkers: Geschichte der Mitteldeutschen Motorenwerke GmbH Taucha 1935-1948

 

Googling Mitteldeutschen Motorenwerke will bring up other results - but all in German!

[Allan Lupton]

Ah yes, MiMo, which was an A-U company, built Jumo 205, 210 and 213 under licence.

Hard to see spin-off there as J205 was an Oechselhauser diesel and the other two were inverted V-12 35 litre petrol engines, but with direct fuel injection, something that racing cars wouldn't have until D-B's W196 in the 1950s

[Odseybod]

So to turn it round, I s'pose we could say that the diesel Audi Le Mans winners owe something to their Jumo aero engine ancestors?

 

As an aside, there's a Jumo diesel-engined Bf 109 in the Kbely museum on the outskirts of Prague (or was last time I was there), recognisable by its extremely broad propeller blades to cope with the different engine characteristics.  It was apparently created towards the end of the War, when Luftwaffe units at the outer extremities of the Reich were starved of engine supplies and had to improvise with whatever was available locally.   

[Allan Lupton]

The aeroplane in the Kbely museum seems to be an Avia S-199 which was built in Czechoslovakia after the Germans left and first flew in 1947. They built quite a lot of 'em and they saw service with the Czechlovakian and Israeli Air Forces. It was powered by a Jumo 211 which, as I wrote above, was a fuel injected inverted V12 petrol engine,  not a diseasel.

[Allan Lupton]

So to turn it round, I s'pose we could say that the diesel Audi Le Mans winners owe something to their Jumo aero engine ancestors?

 

I'd say they had little in common apart from the fuel.

The Jumo 205 was a twin-piston uniflow two-stroke on Oechselhauser principles (made under licence as the Napier Culverin which in turn begat the Deltic as in boats and railway locos) and I doubt that was the case with the Audi which seems to be a V-form four-stroke.

[Odseybod]

The aeroplane in the Kbely museum seems to be an Avia S-199 which was built in Czechoslovakia after the Germans left and first flew in 1947. They built quite a lot of 'em and they saw service with the Czechlovakian and Israeli Air Forces. It was powered by a Jumo 211 which, as I wrote above, was a fuel injected inverted V12 petrol engine,  not a diseasel.

 

Nope, this was definitely a diesel engined Bf 109 from c 1944 (from memory) - maybe it's now gone elsewhere, or into storage (Kbely never has enough room, indoors or out). They also have/had a two-seater 262, which I think the US people modelled their 'recreation' on, as well as multiple variatiosns on the early MIG 15/17 (I was told the Czech-built versions were muich faster, due to flush rivettng, but that may have been local bias). Interesting place.

 

 

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Edited by Odseybod, 24 March 2014 - 14:17.

[Radoye]

No diesel-engined Bf 109 ever existed. Not even on paper.

 

What you saw was indeed an Avia S-199, which is a designation given to the post-war Czech production of Bf 109G airframes mated to a Jumo engine (instead of the original DB engine as built in Germany during the war). This engine was designed for bombers and used the wider paddle-shaped propeller blades, causing the plane to suffer quite a bit form the excessive torque effects. As mentioned earlier, used by Czechs (for a short while) and by Israel (who was the main operator of the type).

 

The 262 is also a post-war Avia product, CS-92, a small number was built post-war as a continuation of the assembly line set up by Germans but it was quickly phased out in favor of MiG's.