83 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

Regulations (combined with manufacturers) can kill racing series, it's happened before (Super Touring, World Rally Car rules, Can-Am, Trans-Am, CART),  and it can happen again.

 

Have the FIA killed F1?

 

• Saving tyres.
• Saving fuel.
• Too complicated and nerdy (even for fans who are engineers!).
• Slow.
• Sound like crap.
• Spectacle?  One a tight Melbourne, challenging street circuit it is bareable, but on a Tilkedrome it is very underwhelming indeed, may as well be watching the Czech F3000 championship.

 

The only positive is the more difficult handling.

 

 When Ferrari dominated the competition at least the cars were exciting to watch, making it still worthwhile to tune the television set in...  Hard to have same engagement for dominant Mercedes victories and underwhelming spectacle.

 

[ PS. Trulli train, we love you, please come back.   At least it felt like you were watching something amazing and truly "impossible" vehicles, and every very difficult overtake around the outside was to be savioured. ]

 

The story "around" the race was OK, Lauda's comments "everything perfect" were good value and there were a few bits of good racing.

 

 But overall 90% of the race Malaysian GP the height of tedium, and might have people not bothering to tune in.  Remember when you would watch CART after F1 and CART would look so slow?  Now F1 looks that slow all the time    plus other aspects of it are terrible too whilst at least CART was exciting and entertaining flat-out racing.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 March 2014 - 09:55.

[SpartanChas]

No. This is the start of a new formula and the only way is up.

[Risil]

Too much conservation, both fuel and tyres. It should be possible to vastly reduce overall fuel consumption without making it the object of the racing itself.

 

When you compare it what Audi, Porsche and Toyota are allowed to do at Le Mans, you could also argue that the teams aren't being challenged enough by the regulations. Spec number of cylinders, V-angle, engine dimensions removes basic technical interest.

 

Give it half a year. Things could get better, but on the other hand by then teams could've got the hang of their handling problems and reliability worries. Not a thrilling race today but I've seen far worse under any formula you care to mention.

Edited by Risil, 30 March 2014 - 09:57.

[blackgerby]

No

[scheivlak]

Regulations (combined with manufacturers) can kill racing series, it's happened before (Super Touring, World Rally Car rules, Can-Am, Trans-Am, CART)

It wasn't regulations that killed Can-Am and it wasn't regulations that killed CART. That's simply nonsense.

 

In fact, some of the current regulations are there to prevent F1 ending like CanAm in the early seventies with one team outspending the other ones so much that they're the only ones that remain.

And CART was destroyed by greed, not by regulations.

[alexbiker]

Do you not remember 2013?

[Boing Ball]

What fuel saving? The 100 kg fuel limit for the race was again a complete non-issue.

[dau]

I think we're at the point where we need a subforum for threads like these.

[Risil]

It wasn't regulations that killed Can-Am and it wasn't regulations that killed CART. That's simply nonsense.

 

You could make an argument that CART was ultimately killed by a failure to agree new regulations that suited its manufacturers in 2000-2001.

 

If nothing else the FIA should be congratulated for reigniting manufacturer interest in both F1 and sports car racing. They need to work on making sure that the show still emphasizes performance, but no one gets into racing for anything else so I'm sure they're aware of that.

Edited by Risil, 30 March 2014 - 10:08.

[Paco]

I wanted to wait for another race before voting but absolutely, racing shouldn't be about conservation.. it should be pushing the envelope. What a boring boring track event on Sunday. Not because of Mercedes having the best engine but watching these gokarts go soooo slow in and out of corners, lack of sound makes the cars appear even slower.. what a mess.

[krod]

No. Thanks for asking.

You can close the thread.

[Shambolic]

Have the FIA killed F1?

 
 
No.

But the constant whine of those too rigid of mind to accept any form of change, is definitely making it seem a little ill.
 

• Saving tyres.
• Saving fuel.
• Too complicated and nerdy (even for fans who are engineers!).
• Slow.
• Sound like crap.
• Spectacle?  One a tight Melbourne, challenging street circuit it is bareable, but on a Tilkedrome it is very underwhelming indeed, may as well be watching the Czech F3000 championship.

 
Tyre saving has been a part of F1 since before I started watching it, and probably since before I was born. If you'd argued cheesey "spectacle" tyres I'd have agreed, but so far this year the tyres seem to have been better in those regards.

There's no polite way of suggesting where the issue lies if you find it "nerdy".

The fixation with speed as a number is tiresome. I can't see the difference between a 97 second lap and a 102 second lap. A car going sideways with black lines left in its wake "looks" faster than one never out of shape and glued perfectly to the road, but chances are the latter is faster. So presuming the slow argument is F1 doesn't get faster year on year, the counter argument is just how many miles of run off would you like, and are you prepared for remote control or robot drivers? Because there comes a point where increased "speed" is beyond the safety levels of the tracks and human physiology.

The cars seem to sound quite good, especially from non-FOM sources (coincidence? You decide). They don't sound like a tortured baby wrapped in a wasp nest and dragged across a blackboard though, and it's perhaps easy for some to think aural torture is thrilling. I can understand not everyone finds the same sounds appealing, but even taking that into account you can hardly say "I don't like layers of engine drivetrain and tyre noise, so it's total **** for everyone".

Tilkedromes are underwhelming and overused on the calendar. Blaming the technical regs for Bernie's cashpowerlove and backhander contracting is rather unfair. For what it's worth though, I generally find Silverstone beyond tedious, and even Spa has been quite dull some years. And that's with cats in a blender engine tones, unlimited fuel tanks, and everlasting tyres. Today's race wasn't exactly thrilling, but it had some interest and the cars still looked "faster" as in near to the edge, compared to previous years.

Among the many (less than complimentary) conclusions I've drawn since the start of the F1 year, is the feeling a lot of F1 fans embrace the history of change as long as they can bathe in a pool of stagnation. They love to go on about the golden years of F1, which seem to be any period other than the current one (especially if there was a big name driving cars with big numbers, no matter how mediocre some of the races may have actually been).

"F1 is anything other than the things I don't like, apart from when those things happened a couple of decades ago, in which case I think they're awesome as long as they don't happen now and nobody notices my contradiction"

Edit - Stupid bloody quote tags

Edited by Shambolic, 30 March 2014 - 10:41.

[Wuzak]

What fuel saving? The 100 kg fuel limit for the race was again a complete non-issue.

 

Yep.

 

The fuel graphic displayed a couple of laps before the end showed that none of the cars were threatening to use the full 100kg. Some were even less - such as Hamilton. Perhaps they put in a few kg less?

[Massa_f1]

It's not what it once was give me a race from 2000 over anything from 2009 onwards really. Problem is they change F1 rules so often compared to other sports, and it is rarely for the better.

[Massa_f1]

Do you not remember 2013?

 

Yes it was crap, and so far this year is no different. Made even worse by terrible sounding engines and cars looking slower. Which is the FIA's fault.

[Nonesuch]

It's a very loaded question. After all, and worth repeating I think, the F in F1 stands for formula, or a set of regulations. One of the big problems facing the FIA is that there has been so much research done in the last 50 years on making cars go fast around a circuit, that if you unleash the engineers you're going to get cars that are probably going to be easily a dozen or more seconds faster than what we have today. The tracks become unsuited, the drivers incapable of driving the cars, etc. The FIA has to reign them in while also making sure that the series remains interesting for both spectators and manufacturers: the people with the money.

[stkildaresident]

Eddie Irvine described it best

 

Edited by stkildaresident, 30 March 2014 - 10:32.

[V8 Fireworks]

There's no polite way of suggesting where the issue lies if you find it "nerdy".

 

 

C'mon a BEEP telling a professional racing car driver when to lift-off before the corner?  That's a joke IMO.  Formula racing cars should be something that is fired up and then as JPM would say "driven like hell".

 

The current cars need engineers working 100 computers just to run!  How is an amateur going to buy it, haul it on a trailer to countryside, and then flog it at a hillclimb one day?

 

[Jejking]

Yep.

 

The fuel graphic displayed a couple of laps before the end showed that none of the cars were threatening to use the full 100kg. Some were even less - such as Hamilton. Perhaps they put in a few kg less?

So that we can go watch some more coasting? Come on, we all know better than that! But cranking up the fuel flow rate a notch, 5-10 per cent, would certainly increase the tension more on track. That would certainly be good if we are half way past the season (in the case engines are not failing, which mean they can take the pounding)

[Wander]

Not quite. But this race wasn't great.

[Skinnyguy]

Eddie Irvine described it best

 

 

That was tense... I´m pretty sure Ted would have been punched if Irvine had Heard what he said.

[Wuzak]

So that we can go watch some more coasting? Come on, we all know better than that! But cranking up the fuel flow rate a notch, 5-10 per cent, would certainly increase the tension more on track. That would certainly be good if we are half way past the season (in the case engines are not failing, which mean they can take the pounding)

 

What are you on about?

 

I noted that none of the cars seemed to be close to using their full 100kg fuel allocation - which would suggest that there wasn't much coasting going on.

 

Increasing the fuel flow rate will not do anything for fuel saving. It will have the opposite effect.

 

The fact is they have a 100kg allowance of fuel for the race - and none of them used it.

[V8 Fireworks]

The fact is they have a 100kg allowance of fuel for the race - and none of them used it.

 

3 kg are required for FIA fuel sample (or 1.5 L or something). 

[Vesuvius]

Killed? No. Made worse? Yes.

[ZionLH]

Yes it was crap, and so far this year is no different. Made even worse by terrible sounding engines and cars looking slower. Which is the FIA's fault.

[dau]

3 kg are required for FIA fuel sample (or 1.5 L or something). 

Which is irrelevant, as there is no regulation concerning how much fuel you can carry, only how much you are allowed to use between the start of the race and the finish.

[andrea303]

Out:

Fuel consumption limit.

Pirelli and their over dramatization

V6 Turbo engine

ERS, KERS

DRS

Double points in the last race

Artificiality

Slower cars

Traffic in qualifying

Hermann Tilke

Pay drivers

 

 

In:

Fixed budget cap

V10/V12 engines

Michelin as a tyre provider

Real overtaking without artificial aids

More racing, less bulls**t

Old qualifying system back

Equal point distribution per race

Better response to the world wide Formula 1 community, fans and payed customers

Traditional circuits

New circuits that endorse speed and racing

[Jackmancer]

Ohw the negativity. I've just seen a nice race. Nobody killed F1.

[slmk]

OP, is your team RBR or Ferrari by any chance? The SAME thing happened when we changed regs in 1998 and 2009. One team got it right more than the others. Gap will eventually narrow down by season's end but there will still be a gap for quite a few GPs.

[spacekid]

I still hate DRS and think it kills racing. I also think the fuel flow limit is a mistake.

I also didn't like K Mags penalty for a very minor racing incident (albeit one that was disastrous for Kimi but hey, leaving a bit more space was always an option for him too, it was just racing).

On the plus side, at least the Pirelli tyres were seen and not heard and did appear to have much better usability this year. That's progress of a sort, I suppose. And I like the new engine formula apart from the fuel flow limit.

F1 will continue for a while, viewing figures seem pretty healthy, even if in my opinion the sport is operating at a level far short of excellence and peak performance.

[V8 Fireworks]

The SAME thing happened when we changed regs in 1998 and 2009.

 

My driver is Danny Ric, my team is Jordan so not so relevant anymore (no special attachment to Force India). 

 

I just think between saving fuel, DRS, electronic systems, terrible sound, very slow corner speeds (compared to modern expectations)... it's just too much, where is the "balls to the wall" racing that made people interested in F1?

 

Got it...

 

Got it...

 

Still got it...

 

Do they still "have it"?  "shock and awe" as such.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 March 2014 - 11:58.

[JHSingo]

No.

[PokePoke]

 

budget cap

Coming in 2015/16

 

 

V10/V12 engines

 

Forget. Now, all racing championships now about downsizing, cost-cutting and eco-friendly image: F1, WEC, Indycars, DTM/Super GT (with new turbocharged 2L R4 engine formula coming in next season), WTCC, BTCC, WRC, ERC, WSBK, Moto GP, USCC and more. Days of sound v10, V12 in racing are numbered. Manufactures, most of sponsors are in favor of this policy.      I would not be surprised if in a year or two we will see in the GP2, WSbR smaller engines.

 

Michelin as a tyre provider

 

 

 

See what they do in the WEC or rally. Nothing special for racing fans after changing of leadership (and priorities) in French company.

 

 

Old qualifying system back

Well, present format (shootout) is preety succesfull - different variations of this format are now in almost all major international and national championships

 

 

Equal point distribution per race

  No NASCAR Chase-like BS 

 

 

Real overtaking without artificial aids

 

Well, that isn't soo simple. You or me like FAIR racing, but many other viewers want action on track, not return to early 00'. This is reason why in F1, ICS, NASCAR, MotoGP, WSB, WTCC, BTCC, DTM, USCC, V8 we must deal with p-t-p, DRS, policy of balancing performance, control tyres rules or strange race format.

 

 

Traditional circuits

Like Imola, Montmelo, Zaadvort, Donington, Magny Cours or Hungaroring? Really?

Edited by PokePoke, 30 March 2014 - 11:54.

[zachary2142]

No.

When it comes to racing, F1 was ALWAYS crap compared to other series. But it's nice that the cars seem to be harder to control.

To me it was always about the engineering and the battle between teams. So the 2014 season with its major changes seems pretty good to me.

The sound doesn't bother me - I actually enjoy it.

And can I just add, I do not understand why you people insist on watching something that you don't like anymore. I admire your resolve I guess...

Edited by zachary2142, 30 March 2014 - 12:02.

[V8 Fireworks]

And can I just add, I do not understand why you people insist on watching something that you don't like anymore. I admire your resolve I guess...

 

We are debating it.  Just annoying they screwed it up so much.  Boring?  Fine.   But it's boring and contrived.    F1 used to be fun, exotic, special to watch!

 

Now, may as well be watching the Latvian Formula Renault 2000 Cup.

 

Still holding out hope it will get more interesting.... 

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 March 2014 - 12:31.

[Wuzak]

V8, it's interesting that you show a race from Monza. These cars may well be the fastest things at Monza since the V10s. And there will be very little, if any, fuel saving required there.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

No, Bernie is killing it.  He took it to great heights, but doesn't have the foresight to let someone else continue and improve what he built.

[Exb]

The new regulations were always going to spread the field out and as a result there is going to be less battles. As the season progresses the cars will close up as the teams/engineers discover what works, the car designs will get more similar and lap times will get closer and there will be more fights and overtakes. Strategy (including fuel saving/usage) will then likely have more effect and may make the races more exciting. I think we just need to give it a bit of time before writing it off, its only the 2nd race and teams are still getting to grips with the cars - look at how much progress there has been so far, in testing it looked possible that over half the field may not finish and yet most of the cars have been reliable, despite this being one of the hottest and so toughest races.

[zachary2142]

We are debating it.  Just annoying they screwed it up so much.  Boring?  Fine.   But it's boring and contrived.    F1 used to be fun, exotic, special to watch!

 

Now, may as well be watching the Latvian Formula Renault 2000 Cup.

 

Still holding out hope it will get more interesting.... 

 

Well, then you and I must have different opinions on what is "boring" in F1, because I really do like the new rules and engines and whatnot. As I said, F1 in my view was never about racing or sound or spectacle but more about the engineering, and new rules=new engineering opportunities and challenges. So I'm very happy with the new season 

[P123]

This topic is a wild over-reaction.  F1 does have problems, but they've been there for a number of years.

[P123]

where is the "balls to the wall" racing that made people interested in F1?

That was last seen in 2004. You're still here.

[Massa_f1]

This topic is a wild over-reaction.  F1 does have problems, but they've been there for a number of years.

 

Yes agree problems have been for a number of years, and I mostly blame the FIA for their running of the sport. Last year was just as bad, but at least it still looked fast and sounded good.

[Risil]

This topic is a wild over-reaction.  F1 does have problems, but they've been there for a number of years.

 

As William Faulkner said, folks keep needing new reasons to believe what they already knew.

[DinosaursRoarForHugs]

Eddie Irvine described it best

 

 

Wow that seemed a bit uncalled for from Ted...is there some sort of historical bad blood between them?

[ollebompa]

It's becoming more and more clear to me that the FIA are not to blame. It is the teams that accually calls for most of the rule restrictions. I do not know why, maybe they are afraid to compete.

[LuckyStrike1]

It's not dead yet. 

It is however not so healthy 

[PokePoke]

 

That was last seen in 2004. You're still here.

With electronics aids (launch control, TC), supersticky tyres and all those reflueling BS? Really?

[demet06]

What fuel saving? The 100 kg fuel limit for the race was again a complete non-issue.

 

The fact that they're doing the same race distance with 100 kg of fuel instead of the 150 kg limit under the previous rules is definitely fuel saving in my book. They're almost going as fast and the speed loss is squarely down to heavier cars and less downforce.

F1 is back to where it should have always been, leading the way in technology which will be passed on to the motor manufacturing industry. The power units are state of the art in terms of power and economy. If we've lost a bit of noise in the process, its a small price to pay for the development in engine efficiency. The previous generation of cars had no bearing on what the motor industry were doing at all. All the driver aids were banned and although superbly engineered, the engines were "old" technology. 

Now with a more limited aero package we're getting the best technology combined with cars that are a handful for the drivers and with the in-car footage we can see their skill in keeping the things on the road. 

F1 had to move on and not become a stagnant formula. Its early days, we've only had 2 races and the cars will get faster as the teams claw back downforce.

It has to be the way forward.

[ollebompa]

What fuel saving? The 100 kg fuel limit for the race was again a complete non-issue.

To be fair they are running maps that makes shure they won't run out. Without limited fuel load(using the 100kg/h to the limit at all times) they'd be quite a lot faster i'm guessing.

Edited by ollebompa, 30 March 2014 - 17:38.

[Shambolic]

C'mon a BEEP telling a professional racing car driver when to lift-off before the corner?  That's a joke IMO.  Formula racing cars should be something that is fired up and then as JPM would say "driven like hell".
 
The current cars need engineers working 100 computers just to run!  How is an amateur going to buy it, haul it on a trailer to countryside, and then flog it at a hillclimb one day?

Ah, "F1 cars *should be*...".

F1 cars should be tubular steel chassis with aluminium rivetted on, engine in the front, fuel tanks either side of the leather cap wearing driver.

F1 cars should be cigars with aerofoils on stilts attached to the suspension arms.

F1 cars should be disproportionate airscoops and fat tyres, sometimes with 6 wheels.

F1 cars should be wingless ground effect twin tub turbo monsters.

F1 cars should be traction controlled automatic gearboxed driver aids on wheels.

F1 cars should be twitchy narrow grooved tyre wearing petrol station queues.


I don't personally agree with telemetry and radio messages telling the driver how to drive, even if I am in favour of F1 not nailing itself to one "F1 should be" ethos. There's many things wrong with F1 (a vast amount of which begin with Ber and end with nie) but during the actual event one of the worst is as you say, things like a beep to say when to lift, coast, etc. Give the drivers a rev counter, shift light, and fuel gauge and let them get on with it. Give the teams safety critical real time data (things which let them know if a mechanical failure is impending) and nothing else, so they can't start coaching from the pratperch.

But don't force them to devolute the nuts and bolts just to cling to some rose tinted notion of past racing that many times never happened, or some base brain fixation with "spectacle", the obsession of which has given us the gimmicky crapfest of DRS, double points, cheesey tyres..


(For the record, I *like* basic stuff - I refuse to own a car with black box everything and the only computer in my car is the mp3 player. SU carbs and Lucas distributors are my preference, along with pushrod OHV easy to faff and maintain engines. But I don't agree with F1 sticking itself into a certain obsolete technology purely because I can identify with it as I stick in a summer thermostat and check my tappets.)