Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Felipe, Valtteri is faster than you


  • Please log in to reply
687 replies to this topic

#651 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,260 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 03 April 2014 - 23:12

I haven't kept track of this story a lot but stand by my original post earlier in the thread.

 

I find the whole situation embarrassing for all involved, the team and both drivers, and even now a week later.. seeing headlines like "Williams apologise to drivers" is embarrassing.



Advertisement

#652 eff1fan

eff1fan
  • Member

  • 298 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 04 April 2014 - 00:23

This all so much BS. Massa ignored a direct team order, HE should be the one to apologize. Even Vettel, a 3x WDC at the time and contender for a 4th, apologized for his indiscretion last year. Not much of one, but an attempt. What pray tell does Massa bring to the table, that allows him to stand above the team and get away with such childish behavior.

 

Like many others Massa is a pay driver, he brings Brazilian $$.

Pretty sad state of affairs F1 isn't it, when a team has to apologize for a decision taken in the interest of the team, to a driver who is at best 2nd rate. But it keeps the sponsors happy I guess.



#653 CHIUNDA

CHIUNDA
  • Member

  • 724 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:52

Like many others Massa is a pay driver, he brings Brazilian $$.
Pretty sad state of affairs F1 isn't it, when a team has to apologize for a decision taken in the interest of the team, to a driver who is at best 2nd rate. But it keeps the sponsors happy I guess.


Didn't Massa say categorically he is not a pay driver? I remember reading that last year somewhere.

There you go www.motorsport.com/f1/news/massa-likens-formula-one-pay-drivers-to-prostitutes/

And www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111246

Edited by CHIUNDA, 04 April 2014 - 02:00.


#654 SPBHM

SPBHM
  • Member

  • 815 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:09

Didn't Massa say categorically he is not a pay driver? I remember reading that last year somewhere.

There you go www.motorsport.com/f1/news/massa-likens-formula-one-pay-drivers-to-prostitutes/

And www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111246

 

well, what exactly is a pay driver? I doubt Massa is taking money from his pocket to pay Williams, maybe that's enough not to be called a pay driver?

also I would assume his contract have some kind of salary from Williams or a sponsor at least,

 

now, the car have some new Brazilian sponsors, Petrobras stayed with Williams in the past from 1998 until 2009 I think, and they are back, as far as I know they told their deal with Williams doesn't involve having a Brazilian driver, same as it was before,

 

as for Banco do Brasil, they seem to be more connected to Felipe Nasr, but I'm sure they are not unhappy with Massa there (the same for Petrobras).



#655 Jamelon

Jamelon
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:15

Good to see Williams seem to have more sense than some here :up:



#656 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 1,751 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:00

Some people on this forum simply can’t understand that drivers are not ‘just’ employees. They are sportsmen and sign up with a team to achieve success together. Perhaps the best way (contractually speaking) is to see it as a partnership between a star athlete and a sports company. The company pays the athlete to use their gear and say nice things about them but can’t really order them around. If the athlete is still very green, the sports company has a lot more pull and if the athlete is an established star they have a lot less pull.

 

All teams realise this. Red Bull even openly acknowledged this after the multi 21 debacle and when Vettel and Webber collided back in 2010. Williams even supported Reutemann’s title shot back in 1981 after he ignored team orders. They have a reputation for considering their drivers and designers as just ‘employees’ (but only with drivers they didn’t hold in high regard). Piquet was allowed to leave because they had Mansell and thought they had Honda’s. They subsequently acknowledged that had been a mistake. They allowed Mansell to leave because they had signed Prost. They allowed Hill to leave because they didn’t really rate him at all. They even allowed Newey to leave because they didn’t want to make him a partner. And Williams would be the first to acknowledge many of these decisions were wrong in hindsight.

 

So can we please move away from the childish notion that drivers are simple employees instead of specialists providing a service to a racing team.



#657 uzsjgb

uzsjgb
  • Member

  • 218 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:06

Good to see Williams seem to have more sense than some here :up:

 

Yes, it is good to see that for Williams the team is the first priority, over the drivers. Further, it is good, that Williams emphasized the fact, that maximum points are what counts for the team. Good to hear, that the drivers have also understood that fact. In the future I am sure they will follow the strategic decisions Williams will issue.

 

Williams made it absolutely clear, that they will continue to use team orders in the future, which of course is the only way to go.



#658 Vepe1995

Vepe1995
  • Member

  • 104 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:54

Some people on this forum simply can’t understand that drivers are not ‘just’ employees. They are sportsmen and sign up with a team to achieve success together. Perhaps the best way (contractually speaking) is to see it as a partnership between a star athlete and a sports company. The company pays the athlete to use their gear and say nice things about them but can’t really order them around. If the athlete is still very green, the sports company has a lot more pull and if the athlete is an established star they have a lot less pull.

 

All teams realise this. Red Bull even openly acknowledged this after the multi 21 debacle and when Vettel and Webber collided back in 2010. Williams even supported Reutemann’s title shot back in 1981 after he ignored team orders. They have a reputation for considering their drivers and designers as just ‘employees’ (but only with drivers they didn’t hold in high regard). Piquet was allowed to leave because they had Mansell and thought they had Honda’s. They subsequently acknowledged that had been a mistake. They allowed Mansell to leave because they had signed Prost. They allowed Hill to leave because they didn’t really rate him at all. They even allowed Newey to leave because they didn’t want to make him a partner. And Williams would be the first to acknowledge many of these decisions were wrong in hindsight.

 

So can we please move away from the childish notion that drivers are simple employees instead of specialists providing a service to a racing team.

 

I think the drivers are 'just eployees' and I don't think it's childish to say that.

 

Your comparison isn't really applicable to F1, because in other sports there isn't a teams championship. Nike can't be world champion of the 100 meter dash.

The drivers championship is perceived as the more important championship, but IMO it's at best equal to the constructors championship. The drivers' championship doesn't directly bring the team anything, while the constructors' championship does.

 

I agree that the drivers are specialists, but IMO they are still 'just employees'.



#659 Jamelon

Jamelon
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:12

It would be interesting to uncouple the drivers and constructor championships in some way. For example, constructors could enter a competition to build their cars with certain specs (different each year) followed by races in which a pool of drivers races with a different car on each race in a balanced way. This could also be followed by a shorter competition in which some or all the drivers all use the winning car only.

 

Just quick thoughts to get rid of things like pay drivers and team orders and a technically better system to decide who does the best driving.



Advertisement

#660 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,644 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:30

It would be interesting to uncouple the drivers and constructor championships in some way. For example, constructors could enter a competition to build their cars with certain specs (different each year) followed by races in which a pool of drivers races with a different car on each race in a balanced way. This could also be followed by a shorter competition in which some or all the drivers all use the winning car only.

 

Just quick thoughts to get rid of things like pay drivers and team orders and a technically better system to decide who does the best driving.

 

This is all heading into different territory but - F1 isn't about seeing who the best driver is. Thats how its sold in the media to generate interest, but that isn't the basis of the competition. Its a racing series between different teams of race car builders. The driver is a part of that team.



#661 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,644 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:35

Some people on this forum simply can’t understand that drivers are not ‘just’ employees. They are sportsmen and sign up with a team to achieve success together. Perhaps the best way (contractually speaking) is to see it as a partnership between a star athlete and a sports company. The company pays the athlete to use their gear and say nice things about them but can’t really order them around. If the athlete is still very green, the sports company has a lot more pull and if the athlete is an established star they have a lot less pull.

 

All teams realise this. Red Bull even openly acknowledged this after the multi 21 debacle and when Vettel and Webber collided back in 2010. Williams even supported Reutemann’s title shot back in 1981 after he ignored team orders. They have a reputation for considering their drivers and designers as just ‘employees’ (but only with drivers they didn’t hold in high regard). Piquet was allowed to leave because they had Mansell and thought they had Honda’s. They subsequently acknowledged that had been a mistake. They allowed Mansell to leave because they had signed Prost. They allowed Hill to leave because they didn’t really rate him at all. They even allowed Newey to leave because they didn’t want to make him a partner. And Williams would be the first to acknowledge many of these decisions were wrong in hindsight.

 

So can we please move away from the childish notion that drivers are simple employees instead of specialists providing a service to a racing team.

 

I'm sorry but I can't agree. Teams like Williams and Sauber are nothing like Nike or Addidas. Nike and Addidas make trainers to sell in shops, they sponsor sports people as they believe it to be an effective form of advertising.

 

F1 teams are more like football clubs. The drivers are like the players (or maybe more specifically like the strikers?). Are they important? Yes of course, there's no point playing football if you don't score goals. But no player is bigger than the club, and the club doesn't exist just so the player can win the Golden Boot.

 

I honestly don't know what some of you think you are watching when you watch F1. It is not a series set up for the benefit drivers to compete against each other. Thats just the side show that gets hyped up to sells tickets.



#662 Jamelon

Jamelon
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:23

Following teams it's like following mobile phone manufacturers or something. Hey, Samsung sold more than Apple this month, let's go celebrate! The team structure is essential in motorsports but it's all about the drivers. Nobody likes to see a less talented driver winning in a faster car and this is in fact the biggest issue with F1, results don't depend on the driver to the extent they should, like say in motogp, a MUCH better show than F1. Football clubs are a different story, even though it's quickly changing from the days where you simply supported the local team to the current trend of global giant clubs getting all the attention. I don't see the point of following clubs that are run like companies simply buying the best players they can with little or no activity developing players in the lower and junior divisions.

 

It's all going a bit too obviously panem et circenses.



#663 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 1,751 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 04 April 2014 - 14:24

I'm sorry but I can't agree. Teams like Williams and Sauber are nothing like Nike or Addidas. Nike and Addidas make trainers to sell in shops, they sponsor sports people as they believe it to be an effective form of advertising.

 

F1 teams are more like football clubs. The drivers are like the players (or maybe more specifically like the strikers?). Are they important? Yes of course, there's no point playing football if you don't score goals. But no player is bigger than the club, and the club doesn't exist just so the player can win the Golden Boot.

 

I honestly don't know what some of you think you are watching when you watch F1. It is not a series set up for the benefit drivers to compete against each other. Thats just the side show that gets hyped up to sells tickets.

 

Of course you are right when you say Nike doesn't enter races. The relationship issue however illustrates my point. Like it or not, few people care which team wins. The vast majority of fans only care about a fav driver. And then only if he is winning. Mansellmania, Alonsomania and Schumachermania all roped in vast numbers of casual fans who (with the exception of Alonso cause he's still racing) all left as soon as their boy retired. Vettel has managed to get most German fans back but they will cheer him as loudly should he switch to Ferrari or McLaren. Fans follow drivers. Sure, we have teams we like but only Ferrari can generate the same passion as drivers invoke. Not even other Italian teams can get that following in Italy.

 

Its just a simple fact that NOBODY outside of F1 cares much about the teams. Why do you think sporscar racing gets no attention? Why the most succesful racing series in the world is all about the driver and puts their numbers in huge letters on the cars?

 

People identify with the drivers. Any team would rather have the driver's title than the team's if not for the money aspect for the attention it brings. Hell, most people can name the driver champions in the past 10 years but would struggle to list the team champions.

 

That makes F1 different than soccer where the team is important. When I watch F1, I see drivers racing cars. And I expect Hamilton to race Rosberg. And I remember that racing originally started when rich dudes bought cars and competed against each other. Manufacturers only got in the act much later. The history of F1 is all about drivers. It is Fangio versus Moss. Hunt versus Lauda. Piquet versus Prost.

 

So keep on dreaming that teams matter and that drivers are just employees to be ordered about. And then wake up to drivers ignoring team orders and wondering why these ungrateful brats get away with it.....



#664 uzsjgb

uzsjgb
  • Member

  • 218 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 04 April 2014 - 14:39

So keep on dreaming that teams matter and that drivers are just employees to be ordered about. And then wake up to drivers ignoring team orders and wondering why these ungrateful brats get away with it.....

 

What gives you the impression that drivers get away with it? What gives you the impression that Massa got away with it? What can you report to us about what happened behind closed doors at Williams?



#665 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,424 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 04 April 2014 - 16:44

 

Its just a simple fact that NOBODY outside of F1 cares much about the teams.

 

We're talking about people inside of F1 and they DO care about the teams.  The drivers care because they want to drive for Red Bull and Mercedes rather than Caterham or Marussia.  A drivers reputation and ability to work within a team will allow him to get closer to those preferred teams.  While it may be true that some drivers are such a benefit in terms of the skills and popularity they bring that the balance of power might shift towards them, I suggest that it is arguable Massa is one of those.  In fact, last weekends events have not put Massa in a good light at all.

 

The driver-team relationship changes as you move up the grid so that no one analogy can possibly work to cover all of the options.



#666 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 2,316 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 04 April 2014 - 20:26

Following teams it's like following mobile phone manufacturers or something. Hey, Samsung sold more than Apple this month, let's go celebrate! The team structure is essential in motorsports but it's all about the drivers. Nobody likes to see a less talented driver winning in a faster car and this is in fact the biggest issue with F1, results don't depend on the driver to the extent they should, like say in motogp, a MUCH better show than F1. Football clubs are a different story, even though it's quickly changing from the days where you simply supported the local team to the current trend of global giant clubs getting all the attention. I don't see the point of following clubs that are run like companies simply buying the best players they can with little or no activity developing players in the lower and junior divisions.

 

It's all going a bit too obviously panem et circenses.

 

The team structure is not essential. You can have a teamless structure where the championship organisers procure a full grid's worth of spec cars and engines and directly employ mechanics and race engineers to run them. Formula 2 (in its recent incarnation when it was run by MSV) did this. Drivers were allocated to a different race engineer each weekend. It failed even though it compared very favourably on cost to its competitor championships, because it couldn't attract the calibre of driver it needed to. The good drivers preferred to run in a championship that allowed them to prove themselves in a team environment. In other words it didn't fail because the teamless structure was impractical or inefficient or expensive - on the contrary, it was very cheap, the reliability was very good. The teamless structure just wasn't wanted.

 

The fact is every major motorsports championship that has ever been a success has had teams, usually running two or more cars each, and where you have teams you will not have a level playing field between drivers (even when there are spec engines and chassis or balance of performance, the better organised, better funded teams still tend to win) and you will have team orders. If team orders are banned you will have clandestine team orders. That's inevitable when it's a team sport, particularly in F1 where the teams are also constructors so the cars are not all the same and do not even have the same potential performance as each other.

 

I don't agree with your lament that it ought to be solely about the drivers. I also don't think that's the considered view of the majority of fans, because if it was, when F2 was launched on a platform of a teamless structure and parity between drivers, it would have been much more popular than it was.



#667 Flyhigh

Flyhigh
  • Member

  • 404 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 04 April 2014 - 21:03

If you guys think is in the best interest of Williams to have a demoralized Massa than you guys are no supporters of Williams, don't give me that Massa has a fragile ego, tell me any driver who wouldn't feel a blow to have accepted this situation over the radio for the world to see. 

Williams made a mistake in handling the situation and they know it. The best way it would be to simply clearly tell both drivers they were racing each other and no overly risky maneuvers was appropriate. If Bottas had passed Massa, he would have felt great and even better to fight Button, while Massa would have felt he was just beaten on track fair and square and there would be no drama. If Bottas could not have pass Massa on Merritt, that was that. To create an artificial situation of Massa opening the door for someone that couldn't naturally, just for a shot at Button is reaching and not good for team moral overall.    



#668 Coops3

Coops3
  • Member

  • 1,578 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 21:15

We're talking about people inside of F1 and they DO care about the teams.  The drivers care because they want to drive for Red Bull and Mercedes rather than Caterham or Marussia.  A drivers reputation and ability to work within a team will allow him to get closer to those preferred teams.  While it may be true that some drivers are such a benefit in terms of the skills and popularity they bring that the balance of power might shift towards them, I suggest that it is arguable Massa is one of those.  In fact, last weekends events have not put Massa in a good light at all.

 

The driver-team relationship changes as you move up the grid so that no one analogy can possibly work to cover all of the options.

Ordinarily I would agree, but I think given the circumstances, Massa did the right thing. By circumstances, I mainly mean 1) Massa has been shafted by team orders before and probably feels he owes it to himself and his fans to stand up for himself this time around; and 2) he's no spring chicken and probably sees himself retiring at Williams, so he's probably not too worried about other teams thinking he's not a team player.

 

I think you could argue that he's laid down a marker to Williams: "don't f**k me about", which may not necessarily be a bad thing as far as his standing within the team is concerned.

 

Also, Claire Williams has apologised to both drivers for the whole thing. Would she have done that if she felt Massa had overstepped the mark? Personally, I don't think so.



#669 FNG

FNG
  • Member

  • 3,165 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 04 April 2014 - 21:28

I'm no Massa fan but he did nothing wrong here I think. Team orders are one thing if it's a matter of a championship contention ( needing the points to score higher than the other contender) Or if his car was severely ailing but I didn't see Bottas swarming the back of him. Telling a guy to move over in HOPES that he MAY be able to pass the other car in front with only a few laps left is daft. I firmly believe drivers need to tow the team line but it was a stupid call from Williams full stop. If Bottas couldn't get by Massa what on earth made them think he could get by the Mac?


Edited by FNG, 04 April 2014 - 21:29.


#670 joora

joora
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 22:31

Of course you are right when you say Nike doesn't enter races. The relationship issue however illustrates my point. Like it or not, few people care which team wins. The vast majority of fans only care about a fav driver. And then only if he is winning. Mansellmania, Alonsomania and Schumachermania all roped in vast numbers of casual fans who (with the exception of Alonso cause he's still racing) all left as soon as their boy retired. Vettel has managed to get most German fans back but they will cheer him as loudly should he switch to Ferrari or McLaren. Fans follow drivers. Sure, we have teams we like but only Ferrari can generate the same passion as drivers invoke. Not even other Italian teams can get that following in Italy.

 

Its just a simple fact that NOBODY outside of F1 cares much about the teams. Why do you think sporscar racing gets no attention? Why the most succesful racing series in the world is all about the driver and puts their numbers in huge letters on the cars?

 

People identify with the drivers. Any team would rather have the driver's title than the team's if not for the money aspect for the attention it brings. Hell, most people can name the driver champions in the past 10 years but would struggle to list the team champions.

 

That makes F1 different than soccer where the team is important. When I watch F1, I see drivers racing cars. And I expect Hamilton to race Rosberg. And I remember that racing originally started when rich dudes bought cars and competed against each other. Manufacturers only got in the act much later. The history of F1 is all about drivers. It is Fangio versus Moss. Hunt versus Lauda. Piquet versus Prost.

 

So keep on dreaming that teams matter and that drivers are just employees to be ordered about. And then wake up to drivers ignoring team orders and wondering why these ungrateful brats get away with it.....

 

A quote from Frank Williams from some time ago:

 

“It’s true that Carlos did ignore the terms of the contract, and for that we did exercise a certain penalty. But after that the matter was forgotten as far as I was concerned. Frankly, I just found the whole thing very boring! I don’t care who gets the points. Why should I care which one of them wins? They’re only employees, after all.

 

also:

 

“Every year I take a slightly tougher attitude towards drivers. And, let me be honest about this, I’m probably particularly jaundiced about them at the moment, thanks to all this messing around with Alan and Carlos. All I care about is Williams Grand Prix Engineering and the points we earn. I don’t care who scored them.

 

 

Source:

http://www.motorspor...ams-on-drivers/

 

:)



#671 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 2,316 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 04 April 2014 - 22:32

If you guys think is in the best interest of Williams to have a demoralized Massa than you guys are no supporters of Williams, don't give me that Massa has a fragile ego, tell me any driver who wouldn't feel a blow to have accepted this situation over the radio for the world to see. 

Williams made a mistake in handling the situation and they know it. The best way it would be to simply clearly tell both drivers they were racing each other and no overly risky maneuvers was appropriate. If Bottas had passed Massa, he would have felt great and even better to fight Button, while Massa would have felt he was just beaten on track fair and square and there would be no drama. If Bottas could not have pass Massa on Merritt, that was that. To create an artificial situation of Massa opening the door for someone that couldn't naturally, just for a shot at Button is reaching and not good for team moral overall.    

 

I agree, the ideal scenario would have been the one where Bottas attacked Massa and Massa defended. If you're Jenson Button, that is.

 

In fact that's more or less what did happen from the time Bottas was told to overtake until he was told to hold position, although as it happens Bottas wasn't able to get close enough to force Massa to change his line significantly to defend his position so Massa didn't lose too much ground on Button. But he did fall back to a certain extent, giving Button breathing space, during the laps when they were fighting each other, which I would argue is one of the reasons why the team didn't want that.



#672 Slartibartfast

Slartibartfast
  • Member

  • 4,305 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 04 April 2014 - 22:54

Its just a simple fact that NOBODY outside of F1 cares much about the teams. Why do you think sporscar racing gets no attention? Why the most succesful racing series in the world is all about the driver and puts their numbers in huge letters on the cars?


How are you defining "outside F1"?

If you mean those not working within F1, then F1 fans are outside. In which case, your claim self-evidently fails or this debate would not even be happening. If you mean those who are not F1 fans, then they, as they are not F1 fans, don't really care about drivers, either.

As for the driver numbers, which teams have them in huge letters? How many pictures of last year's cars can you find with the driver's number prominently on show? In fact, if the driver is all important, why aren't their names in huge letters on driver-centric liveried cars, rather than team-liveried cars with coloured camera-housings being the chief difference between team-mates?

If the drivers were all that everyone cared about, wouldn't they be the recipients of the lion's share of sponsorship money, not the teams?

#673 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 April 2014 - 23:14

I'm sure those Massa fans critical of Williams' order to let Bottas pass, were delighted earlier when the team ordered VB to stop his attack. What a joke.



#674 PapaD

PapaD
  • Member

  • 40 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 23:19

I'd have fired Massa straightaway. The cheek of him.

Bring in di Resta, he would deal with Bottas by pace alone.

#675 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,039 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 04 April 2014 - 23:20

I'm sure those Massa fans critical of Williams' order to let Bottas pass, were delighted earlier when the team ordered VB to stop his attack. What a joke.

 

And vice versa, that's fans for you.

 

A lot of people are against team orders regardless of the drivers involved, especially at this stage of the season. 



#676 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 April 2014 - 23:50

And vice versa, that's fans for you.

 

A lot of people are against team orders regardless of the drivers involved, especially at this stage of the season. 

Given the realities of F1, they should probably watch tennis.



#677 Lulabaloo

Lulabaloo
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 05 April 2014 - 00:02

Given the realities of F1, they should probably watch tennis.

 

Given the realities of F1 maybe we should all watch tennis.



#678 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 416 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 April 2014 - 00:09

Given the realities of F1 maybe we should all watch tennis.

Nahhhhh .... I prefer team sports.  :clap:  Looking forward to Q tomorrow and the race Sunday. 



#679 Music Lover

Music Lover
  • Member

  • 341 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:58

And vice versa, that's fans for you.

A lot of people are against team orders regardless of the drivers involved, especially at this stage of the season.

Remember, Bottas followed the orders, both!!!
I like Bottas but he did the correct thing.
Team orders should be followed. The team try maximazing their points, how hard is that to understand???
I have no sympathy with drivers that have such a big ego that they fail understand that...

If the order was correct or not is not important, it was issued and hence should be followed!
The drivers have less info than the pitwall and should not argue, loosing valuable time.
Plenty of time after the race for analyze and lessons learned.

Advertisement

#680 Acathla

Acathla
  • Member

  • 112 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:08

I hope that Bottas will destroy Massa after the last race. He will be on team radio a lot this year, hopefully Bottas will pass Massa instead of listening to team orders and stay put. 



#681 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,039 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 05 April 2014 - 14:02

Remember, Bottas followed the orders, both!!!
I like Bottas but he did the correct thing.
Team orders should be followed. The team try maximazing their points, how hard is that to understand???
I have no sympathy with drivers that have such a big ego that they fail understand that...

If the order was correct or not is not important, it was issued and hence should be followed!
The drivers have less info than the pitwall and should not argue, loosing valuable time.
Plenty of time after the race for analyze and lessons learned.

 

I think teams should allow their drivers to race. F1 would be better that way.

I think Massa was wrong to disobey his team (unless he had an agreement with Williams when he signed up, that he would be allowed to race his teammate) and I also think Williams were wrong to issue the orders.



#682 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 1,751 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 April 2014 - 15:49

What gives you the impression that drivers get away with it? What gives you the impression that Massa got away with it? What can you report to us about what happened behind closed doors at Williams?

 

It is a fact that teams (remembering a quote from the 1990s from an Autosport interview with Frank & Patrick about Patrese and Mansell IIRC) that teams like a nice driver and team player like Patrese but will always prefer to sign a difficult bastard if he is a second faster.....Just like every team wanted Senna despite him being extremely difficult and very disloyal. Senna only raced for Senna. That didn't hurt his reputation at all.



#683 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 1,751 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 April 2014 - 15:54

A quote from Frank Williams from some time ago:

 

“It’s true that Carlos did ignore the terms of the contract, and for that we did exercise a certain penalty. But after that the matter was forgotten as far as I was concerned. Frankly, I just found the whole thing very boring! I don’t care who gets the points. Why should I care which one of them wins? They’re only employees, after all.

 

also:

 

“Every year I take a slightly tougher attitude towards drivers. And, let me be honest about this, I’m probably particularly jaundiced about them at the moment, thanks to all this messing around with Alan and Carlos. All I care about is Williams Grand Prix Engineering and the points we earn. I don’t care who scored them.

 

 

Source:

http://www.motorspor...ams-on-drivers/

 

:)

 

Yes. And you understand that this is from the early 1980s. And that Williams has steadily lost the plot because failed to keep the drivers, designers or partners which would have allowed them to remain a top team? Or that this attitude came after he gave Jones #1 status (which could be defended in 1980) and continued it for 1981 despite Jones having won his title. Reutemann wasn't a #2 and Williams knew it. So he created those problems for himself. The 'just an employee' idea came after Jones retired at the end of 1981 and then Reutemann in early 1982, leaving Williams with Rosberg (then considered a fast journeyman) and Daly.....Frank Williams has since then often said that the regrets losing Piquet to name but one driver.



#684 joora

joora
  • Member

  • 329 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 05 April 2014 - 19:53

Yes. And you understand that this is from the early 1980s. And that Williams has steadily lost the plot because failed to keep the drivers, designers or partners which would have allowed them to remain a top team? Or that this attitude came after he gave Jones #1 status (which could be defended in 1980) and continued it for 1981 despite Jones having won his title. Reutemann wasn't a #2 and Williams knew it. So he created those problems for himself. The 'just an employee' idea came after Jones retired at the end of 1981 and then Reutemann in early 1982, leaving Williams with Rosberg (then considered a fast journeyman) and Daly.....Frank Williams has since then often said that the regrets losing Piquet to name but one driver.

 

Yep, as per source the qoute is from an interview done in the end of 1981. Nobody can know if FW's stance on the drivers then was honest or just a way of getting around the situation. But history of Williams F1 does show that FW didn't want to pamper drivers just he could keep em in the car (apart from Piquet, Frank wasn't sad about Mansell, Prost or Hill leaving the team). I doubt that he will start that trend with Massa, who's similar to Hill in ability.



#685 coppilcus

coppilcus
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 05 April 2014 - 23:40

Felipe needs to grow thicker skin... Some would say.

#686 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,661 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 06 April 2014 - 03:30

If Massa wanted to be given priority he should drive faster.

#687 Hans V

Hans V
  • Member

  • 349 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 06 April 2014 - 07:31

I think Massa will loose out on this in the end. Setting yourself above the team - at the first possible occasion doesn't make it better. He got his way when he couldn't overtake Mag with a damaged car - and Bottas was told to hold station. And when it was his turn to return the favor - after his hopeless overtaking attempt at Button, he refused. He is quite fast, but inconsistent and can't overtake, so I don't expect him to return in 2015, especially if Nasr can get his act togethet in GP2. Personally I'd sign Frijns, who togethet with Vandoorne is the most exciting prospect outside F1.

#688 dreamer

dreamer
  • Member

  • 529 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 06 April 2014 - 07:43

The real problem with Massa here, is not the team order... is that Bottas really seems to drive faster than him at this point. I'm not counting Australia but in Malaysia Bottas started 18th and in few laps he was just behind Massa fighting for points and trying to overtake him (then told to back off). 

I believe it really has to do with his race pace and he has to start solving this problem soon. Because he is a fast driver too.


Edited by dreamer, 06 April 2014 - 07:45.