185 replies to this topic

[danstheman]

He jumped the release, light was still red, red means work is not finished

 

I don't think he did. Pretty sure someone mentioned that the gun man had pressed the green button to signify his wheel was finished, but then changed his mind and once Dan had already set off, it was too late to react that quickly. This seems to be backed up by the quote from Horner below

 

“The wheel wasn’t located correctly. It went on OK, it was done up, the gun man felt that something wasn’t quite right, and in going to check and put an extra couple of turns into it the latch on the gun had switched back across, so he effectively undid it. It’s one of those things. The pit crew has got the fastest pit stops in the pit lane, and today a mistake was made. That’s how it goes sometimes.”

 

So somewhat ironic that the purpose of the penalty is to stop the teams making quick, unsafe pitstops...but in this case the gun man actually did a very quick job but decided to check again to make sure and that's what created the problem!

[williams96]

Dan didn't jump any lights. They changed.

Rules are rules but I've never been so put off watching F1 in 18 years. Surely they can invent a half reliable sensor to actually help prevent the risk. Or if something is becoming as serious as warranting a 10 second stop and go as well as a grid drop then set a mandatory 4/5 second minimum pit stop time.

[gowebber]

 

Man what a crap start to the year for Dan. Well done to RBR for screwing up another pitstop for the Aussie drivers. Its getting like Mark's bad luck already. How the fark does Dan deserve two penalties for an unsafe pit release?? Last year RBR get a 5000 Euro fine for Webber's unsafe release due to the wheel not being fastened properly.

 

"Pressed as to whether the problem might have been down to 'finger trouble' on the part of the pit crew member fitting the wheel, Horner said: "The report from the gunman who obviously had extra time because it was not a hasty time due to nose change was that certainly the right rear was secure and done up tightly."

 

The race stewards ruled that the tyre problem had been down to the team and fined Red Bull 5000 euros."

 

http://www.crash.net...fringement.html

 

This just smacks of FIA bitterness and wanting to throw the book at RBR and Dan at any opportunity because of this whole 'fuelgate' saga. Fk you FIA, fk u very much! :/

Edited by gowebber, 30 March 2014 - 23:28.

[Fastcake]

 

 

Man what a crap start to the year for Dan. Well done to RBR for screwing up another pitstop for the Aussie drivers. Its getting like Mark's bad luck already. How the fark does Dan deserve two penalties for an unsafe pit release?? Last year RBR get a 5000 Euro fine for Webber's unsafe release due to the wheel not being fastened properly.

 

"Pressed as to whether the problem might have been down to 'finger trouble' on the part of the pit crew member fitting the wheel, Horner said: "The report from the gunman who obviously had extra time because it was not a hasty time due to nose change was that certainly the right rear was secure and done up tightly."

 

The race stewards ruled that the tyre problem had been down to the team and fined Red Bull 5000 euros."

 

http://www.crash.net...fringement.html

 

This just smacks of FIA bitterness and wanting to throw the book at RBR and Dan at any opportunity because of this whole 'fuelgate' saga. Fk you FIA, fk u very much! :/

 

 

A cameraman has been hit in the pit lane since then. Enforcement of the rules changes over time, and in this particular instance you could say that the FIA have been far too lenient on teams not properly fastening until the accident last year.

 

 

Ricciardo has very much inherited Webber's Red Bull seat, however...

[redreni]

 

 

Man what a crap start to the year for Dan. Well done to RBR for screwing up another pitstop for the Aussie drivers. Its getting like Mark's bad luck already. How the fark does Dan deserve two penalties for an unsafe pit release?? Last year RBR get a 5000 Euro fine for Webber's unsafe release due to the wheel not being fastened properly.

 

"Pressed as to whether the problem might have been down to 'finger trouble' on the part of the pit crew member fitting the wheel, Horner said: "The report from the gunman who obviously had extra time because it was not a hasty time due to nose change was that certainly the right rear was secure and done up tightly."

 

The race stewards ruled that the tyre problem had been down to the team and fined Red Bull 5000 euros."

 

http://www.crash.net...fringement.html

 

This just smacks of FIA bitterness and wanting to throw the book at RBR and Dan at any opportunity because of this whole 'fuelgate' saga. Fk you FIA, fk u very much! :/

 

 

When were the FIA bitter? When they changed the rule to provide a stiffer penalty for unsafe releases after a cameraman was knocked off his feet and hospitalised? Or when the stewards implemented the rule as written?

 

Apologies to RIC if I was too quick to believe earlier reports that he ran the red light. Although, as I've said consistently, the driver has to cop the flak for pitcrew errors in the same way as he gets the benefit if they outperform other pitcrews, and in the same way that the team suffers if/when the driver screws up. So the penalty is and ought to be the same regardless of whether the driver or his pitcrew were at fault.

[gowebber]

The wheel never came off and Dan stopped so surely some discretion could be used rather than just throwing the book at him. Why give him 2 penalties as well??

Edited by gowebber, 30 March 2014 - 23:44.

[EthanM]

 

nope

 

it's a new rule for 2014, unsafe release = 10 places grid drop at the next race no matter what.

If you are in the race you also get a stop go.

 

That's the rules.

 

23.12 c) If a car is deemed to have been released in an unsafe condition during a race the driver concerned will receive a ten grid place penalty at the driver’s next Event. However, if any car released in an unsafe condition is able to resume the race a penalty under Article 16.3© will also be imposed on the driver concerned. 

 

 

hope that makes it clearer for you ^^

 

The wheel never came off and Dan stopped so surely some discretion could be used rather than just throwing the book at him. Why give him 2 penalties as well??

[gowebber]

The rules suck when they penalise the driver for stuff out of his control. Penalise the team instead then. Dan has driven two very good races for no points now , hope he has better luck for the rest of the year.

[Jazza]

But the point isn't to "avoid" danger in the sense of eliminating it. It is to reduce danger. As far as I know this is the first incident of this nature since the Webber incident last year, the FIA has taken a number of actions, including but not limited to increasing the penalty to a 10s stop-go plus a 10 place grid penalty, which seem to have worked well so far. Even today, the team did not release the car before the wheel was on, it was the driver who jumped the gun, which is always going to be the hardest thing for the teams to avoid. So I think it's harsh to say the fact that there has been one incident shows the measures taken since the cameraman was knocked down are ineffective.

That would be true if wheels were being left off every race, but this only happens once or twice a year. We have strict penalties in place now and yet this has still happened. There is no evidence that the pit lane is a safer place now then what it was before the penalties. The time taken to make a pit stop has not increased since the penalties were introduced so obviously none of the teams are taking more caution than before. If the aim of these penalties is to make the teams be more careful and to make the pitlane a safer place then they are not working. But that shouldn't be a surprise, because if the mechanics own safety as well as the need to not ruin their own race wasn't enough to make them go slower no amount of penalties will either.

The only way the FIA can stop this from happening is by changing the rules on pit stops. Forcing teams to return to behind a control line once the wheels are on, enforcing a minimum pitstop time, or making teams switch the cars off and restart them after all four wheels are on, these are the only type of rules that will stop mistakes like this from happening. Penalties can not stop mistakes if everyone is trying to avoid the mistake in the first place.

[HeadFirst]

"If Daniel Ricciardo had no bad luck, he'd have no luck at all."

Dude was born under a bad sign.

[Eff One 2002]

Totally ludicrous and unjustified penalty there. He already served a penalty for the unsafe release DURING THE RACE. One offense should equal one penalty, not "oh, let's just throw in another one while we're at it". How completely and utterly asinine.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 31 March 2014 - 01:40.

[Tsarwash]

And if they choose not to slow down and it happens again and someone in the pitlane gets killed, does the fact they will get penalised bring the dead person back to life?

Sarcastic and stupid comment I know, but penalising mistakes that everyone is trying their best to avoid does not protect anyone. If the point of the penalty is to avoid danger than today is proof that it doesn't work.

But they are not doing their best, are they ? They are doing their best within the time constraints that they have set themselves, which is different. The teams are free to take slightly longer over the pitstops, and I suspect that this penalty might make the teams think a bit. Daniel or the lollipop man's mistake cost the team a likely 20 points and possible podiums.

[Jazza]

But they are not doing their best, are they ? They are doing their best within the time constraints that they have set themselves, which is different. The teams are free to take slightly longer over the pitstops, and I suspect that this penalty might make the teams think a bit. Daniel or the lollipop man's mistake cost the team a likely 20 points and possible podiums.

All the teams knew about this penalty before the race started. There has been no indication this year that any of them have slowed down to avoid it. I seriously doubt we will see teams throwing away a second or so in the pitstops next race just to play it safe.

Imagine how crazy it would be if drivers were given a penalty at the next race for stalling on the grid this race (at least before the age of antistall). No driver intends to ruin their race and risk being injured or killed by stalling on the grid. But mistakes and technical issues happen. Penalising them for their mistake will not make them take off slower at the next race just to be careful. Now if they were forced to start at the back of the grid at the next race there could be an argument of safety there. If they stall again at least there is no danger. But making them start 10 places down when they could end up 11th doesn't protect anyone. The same with this issue. 10 place penalties will not make the teams put the wheels on slower, nor will it protect anyone once a wheel has come off. As long as they are racing they will go as fast as they can.

[johnmhinds]

A harder penalty should make teams rethink their stopping procedures. If this penalty is pointless because does nothing to stop the problem means the penalty is too light, not too hard, and teams prefer to risk getting this penalty than doing slower but safer pit stops.

I'll ask again, how does putting a car further down the grid directly affect the mechanic with the wheel gun in any way?

Are drivers towards the back of the grid immune to innocent mistakes or something?

It's not like he was even rushing during this pit stop, the reports say he even had time to double check the wheel and that's when the mistake happened.

 

Under the circumstances the mechanics and the driver did everything right, the car didn't go out onto the track and he was stopped as soon as possible, and yet somehow this little mistake warrants one of the most harsh penalties in the sport.

Edited by johnmhinds, 31 March 2014 - 07:46.

[Wuzak]

All the teams knew about this penalty before the race started. There has been no indication this year that any of them have slowed down to avoid it. I seriously doubt we will see teams throwing away a second or so in the pitstops next race just to play it safe.

 

It is exactly what Williams did when they had a few in a short time last season. They slowed their pitstops and changed their procedures.

[Mercedestorque1]

Wow, it's like the FIA are pissed off with Red Bull over something?

if that's the case then i wonder how the appeal hearing will pan out

[Kyo]

I'll ask again, how does putting a car further down the grid directly affect the mechanic with the wheel gun in any way?

Are drivers towards the back of the grid immune to innocent mistakes or something?

It's not like he was even rushing during this pit stop, the reports say he even had time to double check the wheel and that's when the mistake happened.

 

Under the circumstances the mechanics and the driver did everything right, the car didn't go out onto the track and he was stopped as soon as possible, and yet somehow this little mistake warrants one of the most harsh penalties in the sport.

Wrong, the mechanic knew the wheel was loose, but as soon as he took of the gun to put it again the other mechanic assumed it was all right, put the car down and let Ricciardo go.

 

Putting a car further down the grid should make sure teams spend more money developing safer wheel nuts and guns as well as changing their pit stop procedures to safer ones.

 

How the mechanics did everything right if they let a driver go with a loose wheel even tough one of the mechanics knew the wheel was loose? Shouldn't the other mechanics wait for a confirmation from the mechanic with the wheel gun before letting the driver go?

[Nicktendo86]

Totally ludicrous and unjustified penalty there. He already served a penalty for the unsafe release DURING THE RACE. One offense should equal one penalty, not "oh, let's just throw in another one while we're at it". How completely and utterly asinine.

It is in the regs for this year and the same rule applies for everyone, 10 place automatic penalty and stop/go if still in the race.

Not sure what everyone is getting worked up for, this is a cut and dry case.

[August]

I can accept this penalty, given a loose wheel basically ruins your race, having a penalty is quite meaningless then. A loose wheel can have serious consequences, so it's good to have harsh penalties on them.

 

Another thing is if it was the team who found out the tyre was loose and told RIC to stop. Than I think a penalty was too harsh.

[Tenmantaylor]

It's going to take a lot more of ze punishment to wipe that smile off his face.

[Exb]

Wrong, the mechanic knew the wheel was loose, but as soon as he took of the gun to put it again the other mechanic assumed it was all right, put the car down and let Ricciardo go.
 Putting a car further down the grid should make sure teams spend more money developing safer wheel nuts and guns as well as changing their pit stop procedures to safer ones.
How the mechanics did everything right if they let a driver go with a loose wheel even tough one of the mechanics knew the wheel was loose? Shouldn't the other mechanics wait for a confirmation from the mechanic with the wheel gun before letting the driver go?

Its odd as Ricciardo got a green light to go. Last year the mechanics had buttons they pressed on the wheel gun once the wheel is on, and only when all 4 are pressed will the light turn green. The unsafe release happened last year in Germany due to a mechanic pressing the button in error (his hand slipped) - not sure if a similar system is still in place, but I would have thought if anything they would have made it more robust and more difficult to accidently press the button, in which case I have no idea how the light would have turned green if the mechanic knew the wheel wasn't on.

On one of the TV channels (can't remember which, I think Sky) someone mentioned the mechanic thought he had tightened the wheel but as it wasn't seated correctly the bolt would have just been spinning without attaching the wheel - have no idea if this is what happened though.

[age]

Just hang him on the Dias after the next champagne ceremony. 

[x600]

Dr. Marko got what he wanted.

[sheepgobba]

How long till this happens to Vettel? 

[DILLIGAF]

Oh for the love of... seriously? I hate this side of Nu-F1. I would much prefer each race to be its own thing, I hate penalties that carry over from one race to another.

If a penalty must be imposed I would much rather see a constructors points penalty.

Good call.

[redreni]

The penalty is mandated in the regulations. But I have a suggestion for those that dislike the regulation. I'm struggling to think of a single instance of a car being released when the wheels aren't on where the gun man on the wheel concerned didn't know immediately that there was a problem. As someone mentioned above, pitstop safet could be dramatically improved by way of a control line regulation. The pitcrew and all their equipment would have to wait behind the line on the garage side of the pitbox until the incoming car stops in the box, thereby reducing the risk of a driver knocking his pitcrew down. The crew would then move into position taking their things with them. Owing to this requirement teams would probably opt to power their airguns from a portable air bottle worn on the gunman's back, which would remove another hazard, namely the airlines. Witness, for example, the incident Mercedes suffered in the DTM a couple of years ago where a car's rear wing fouled an airline and pulled the entire rig down on top of the pitcrew. And most importantly, after the wheel has been put on and the nut fastened, the "ready" signal to allow the car to be released, rather than being given by pressing a button on the gun, would be given by disengaging the gun, getting up and retreating behind the control line. The gunman would thus be given thinking time, and an opportunity to realise if there is something wrong before the car is released.

[Clatter]

I can accept this penalty, given a loose wheel basically ruins your race, having a penalty is quite meaningless then. A loose wheel can have serious consequences, so it's good to have harsh penalties on them.

 

Another thing is if it was the team who found out the tyre was loose and told RIC to stop. Than I think a penalty was too harsh.

The onus is on the team to ensure the car is ready to leave the pit, it clearly wasn't and regardless of them realising quickly they are at fault. Teams will always push the boundaries to get back on track as quickly as possible and minor penalties will not make them change their ways. 

[Schuttelberg]

I have a few questions?

 

What if this had happened at Abu Dhabi?

 

Would they penalise DR or RBR in 2015??

 

What if DR was moving teams? Would RBR take the penalty for a new driver in a new season who wasn't even part of it?

 

 

[Frank Tuesday]

The penalty was applied as dictated in the rule books, and the teams know the rules.  So no sympathy for Ricciardo from me.  However, I don't like the penalty because I don't think they should carry from one race to another.  I think that the penalties should be applied directly to the team, and the severity of the penalty should increase for repeated infractions.  1st time: constructor loses best finish of the year. If either driver on your team wins, you lose 25 constructor points.  If you teams' best finish is a 4th, you lose 12 points.  If your teams best finish is a single 12th place, you lose that placing when deciding placings among teams who didn't score.  If the team has an unsafe release a second time in a single season, they lose 2 additional best placings.  3rd time: 3 more best finishes (this is potentially a cumulative 150 point loss), etc. ... nth time: exclusion from constructors championship.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 01 April 2014 - 13:36.

[EthanM]

I have a few questions?

 

What if this had happened at Abu Dhabi?

 

Would they penalise DR or RBR in 2015??

 

What if DR was moving teams? Would RBR take the penalty for a new driver in a new season who wasn't even part of it?

 

no on all three

[Andrew Hope]

Has the attitude that the punishment is inherent in the act always been in F1 or is this something racing forums have come up with all on their own? I really can't believe how many people harping on about a penalty being unfair because the exact thing Red Bull did that deserved a penalty ruined their race. It wasn't even a year ago a loose wheel from the exact same car crewed by the exact same team obliterated a cameraman in the pits, rules were changed and every team knows exactly what they are. Red Bull got caught losing 5 minutes trying to gain .5 seconds, so... too bad. If you make x amount of infractions, you get x amount of penalties. You can't say "Oh, that really dangerous thing we did backfired on us, so haven't we suffered enough?". Well, clearly not, if you're still releasing cars unsafely. This doesn't happen in other sports. If a hockey player slashes a guy with his stick, instigates a fight, and has a fight, that's 2 minutes for slashing, 2 and a game misconduct for instigating, and 5 for fighting. He can't say "Come on, I already got 5 for fighting, why should I get 2 for slashing on top of it?".

 

As for the usual complaints about how it should be a team penalty, here's something to consider: as this is a team sport, every penalty is a team penalty. Daniel Ricciardo is employed by Red Bull Racing, not the other way around. The guys running the pit stops are employed by RBR too, and they sink or swim together. The team screws up on Ricciardo's car and Ricciardo gets a penalty: therefore the team gets a penalty. Because the driver is a part of the team. They lose face, they lose points, they anger one of their drivers, they get fined, they're behind the 8 ball already for the next race, they look amateur in front of millions of people, they look callous because these harsh rules were created because of the same team's carelessness, and on it goes. Pretending only Ricciardo was screwed here is at best disingenuous and at worst simply a lie. He wasn't screwed by anything but his own team, he comes out of the whole deal looking a lot more sympathetic than anyone else on that team.

 

I was more annoyed by Magnussen's penalty, continuing the fine FIA tradition of forgetting "racing accidents" exist, and just lopping on a penalty to whichever car was least-damaged by a collision, regardless of who was at fault.

[johnmhinds]

I don't think anyone was saying the release wasn't unsafe, we were saying that the 10 place grid penalty didn't fit the crime and doesn't affect any mistakes during a pitstop.

 

Pushing a driver down the grid doesn't force the team to change how their pitstops are done, the team seems to be free to carry on doing pitstops as they have been and continue to accept the same penalty risk.

if anything a grid penalty it makes the whole issue of unsafe releases worse with the driver having to make up even more time in the mid pack.

 

If the real goal here is to have safer pitstops then the mechanics should be forced to do more pitstop training, or the FIA should implement minimum pitstop times.

[redreni]

Pushing a driver down the grid doesn't force the team to change how their pitstops are done, the team seems to be free to carry on doing pitstops as they have been and continue to accept the same penalty risk.

if anything a grid penalty it makes the whole issue of unsafe releases worse with the driver having to make up even more time in the mid pack.

 

If the real goal here is to have safer pitstops then the mechanics should be forced to do more pitstop training, or the FIA should implement minimum pitstop times.

 

I think there's something in what you say. Maybe the FIA should consider a system that would force teams to change how they do their pitstops if, like Red Bull, they have repeatedly endangered people in the pitlane by releasing cars in an unsafe condition.

 

I'm not saying Red Bull's record is particularly bad. But, hypothetically, if you had a team that was doing this regularly, the FIA couldn't just allow them to carry on doing it until somebody is seriously injured or killed. So maybe it should be something like: 1st offence = reprimand and fine; 2nd offence = black flag, grid penalty for next event and bigger fine; 3rd offence = black flag and race ban and even bigger fine; 4th offence = black flag, 6 race ban, $100m fine; 5th offence = exclusion from the WCC and WDC.

 

I suspect then teams would sooner revise their procedures to cut out errors, even at the expense of time, than commit a third offence.

 

But I do agree that changing the pitstop regulations to make the stops safer would be better still.

[techspeed]

Pushing a driver down the grid doesn't force the team to change how their pitstops are done, the team seems to be free to carry on doing pitstops as they have been and continue to accept the same penalty risk.

if anything a grid penalty it makes the whole issue of unsafe releases worse with the driver having to make up even more time in the mid pack.

Giving a stop/go or time penalty in the race which the team has already messed up and effectively thrown away their chance of a good result is pretty pointless. What sort of incentive is there when you know that the only penalty you get is a stop/go or a drive through in a race that the car either limps back to the pit or has to be pushed back so already way behind, or the wheel has fallen off and the penalty can't be taken as the car is stopped on the side of the track.

 

A grid penalty at the next race means the team is actually punished for their mistake.

[evo]

I thought the FIA's way of implementing rules to address issues like the unsafe release is to first bring an uzi to a rock paper scissors match and then slowly bring smaller guns after.

 

In other words, nothing to see here!

Edited by evo, 01 April 2014 - 22:12.

[pdac]

Has the attitude that the punishment is inherent in the act always been in F1 or is this something racing forums have come up with all on their own? I really can't believe how many people harping on about a penalty being unfair because the exact thing Red Bull did that deserved a penalty ruined their race. It wasn't even a year ago a loose wheel from the exact same car crewed by the exact same team obliterated a cameraman in the pits, rules were changed and every team knows exactly what they are. Red Bull got caught losing 5 minutes trying to gain .5 seconds, so... too bad. If you make x amount of infractions, you get x amount of penalties. You can't say "Oh, that really dangerous thing we did backfired on us, so haven't we suffered enough?". Well, clearly not, if you're still releasing cars unsafely. This doesn't happen in other sports. If a hockey player slashes a guy with his stick, instigates a fight, and has a fight, that's 2 minutes for slashing, 2 and a game misconduct for instigating, and 5 for fighting. He can't say "Come on, I already got 5 for fighting, why should I get 2 for slashing on top of it?".

 

As for the usual complaints about how it should be a team penalty, here's something to consider: as this is a team sport, every penalty is a team penalty. Daniel Ricciardo is employed by Red Bull Racing, not the other way around. The guys running the pit stops are employed by RBR too, and they sink or swim together. The team screws up on Ricciardo's car and Ricciardo gets a penalty: therefore the team gets a penalty. Because the driver is a part of the team. They lose face, they lose points, they anger one of their drivers, they get fined, they're behind the 8 ball already for the next race, they look amateur in front of millions of people, they look callous because these harsh rules were created because of the same team's carelessness, and on it goes. Pretending only Ricciardo was screwed here is at best disingenuous and at worst simply a lie. He wasn't screwed by anything but his own team, he comes out of the whole deal looking a lot more sympathetic than anyone else on that team.

 

I was more annoyed by Magnussen's penalty, continuing the fine FIA tradition of forgetting "racing accidents" exist, and just lopping on a penalty to whichever car was least-damaged by a collision, regardless of who was at fault.

 

Exactly.

 

I was one who suggested earlier that there should be more of a team penalty, but having read other comments I now understand that the driver gains or loses by the actions of their pit crew - they are a team.

 

As for those asking why the penalty carries over to the next race ... I think that's exactly the point. The FIA want teams to take this rule seriously and are giving the message "if you do this, you'll damage your prospects at the next race, so think about it".