139 replies to this topic

[Coops3]

I loved this new graphic on Sunday. At first it seemed so simple. But having thought about it a bit more, I'm not actually that sure what it's telling us.

 

OK, so the obvious answer is "the percentage of fuel each driver has used".

 

Is it that simple though? On Sunday, a lot of people were concluding from the graphic that Hamilton was using less fuel per lap than Rosberg. But if it is actually showing the percentage of fuel used, surely we can't conclude that, since we don't know how much fuel was in the tank to start with? If Rosberg started with less fuel than Hamilton, then that would explain why Rosberg was burning - proportionally - more fuel per lap.

 

I've seen people stating that the graphic assumes a starting weight of 100 kilos of fuel. That sort of makes sense, but I'd like to see some concrete confirmation of this. The thing which bothers me about this theory is that it kind of makes the graphic meaningless. If it assumes a starting weight of 100 kilos, but in actual fact a driver has only started with 85 kilos (for example), then he might run out of fuel when the graphic is telling us he's only used 85%. Which would make the graphic wrong.

 

So my questions are: What is it actually showing? Where does the measurement come from - the fuel flow sensor, or something else? In recent years, the teams have always known when a driver is about to run out of fuel. Did they have fuel flow sensors in previous years? If not, is it not plausible that the measurement is actually coming from something else? 

 

Any clarification (or speculation) greatly received!

[Markn93]

Apparently, forget which broadcast said this but I think it was BBC, it goes up based on every 10g of fuel used. 

[Coops3]

If that's true, then the graphic would be incorrect. The caption is "Fuel Used %". If it goes up based on every 10g of fuel used, it's actually measuring fuel rate. Or have I got this horrendously wrong?! 

[PaulC2K]

You can only use 100k from green to chequered flag. So 1% means 1k, and the fuel sensor knows exactly how much fuel is passing through the line to ensure thats correct.

So you can fill it with 110k if you want and are able, but you'll only be allowed to use 100k from start to finish else your DQ'd

 

What i do want to know is, if Red Bull claimed their sensor was dead, why was it working perfectly for the graphic during the race, and why did it take Sky about 45min to figure that out

What are the FIA using for the graphics, which Red Bull cant also access, and therefor needed to 'work with the FIA' with some pre-mapped setting incase this happened 'again'

Edited by PaulC2K, 31 March 2014 - 20:49.

[Bloggsworth]

Nothing very relevant - It dances about like a cat on a hot tin roof showing us fuel usage that varies about 1% every second you are looking at it, so I guess it's even less accurate than the fuel flow meter...

[bub]

I'm not sure but I think it's probably showing how much of the fuel allowance they've used. If that is the case then you bring up a good point about the graphic stating 85% when the driver is about to run out of fuel. Good idea for a thread, more info on this would be nice.

[redreni]

The fact that it continues to work (without interruption) despite a total fuel flow rate sensor failure is interesting.

[PNSD]

I think you for making this topic.

 

It bugged me an amazing amount! The moment I saw Massa was a whole bunch less than everyone else, yet seemed to not be able to get close enough to Jenson made me  quicky think this was a percentage of 100%. So I assumed Massa and Bottas started with less fuel than the others?

[Lights]

Both Williams had far less % than the rest, yet that % gap did not seem to close up near the end of the race.

[Coops3]

The fact that it continues to work (without interruption) despite a total fuel flow rate sensor failure is interesting.

Exactly. I don't think the data comes from the fuel flow sensor. But I have nothing to back that up with, it's just a hunch.

[Markn93]

I assumed they (Williams) had less than 100kg in and the fuel usage % assumed all cars started with 100kg. Lewis also on lap 54 of 56 was shown to have used 91% of his fuel. Make of that what you will. It may speak to Merc's efficiency if teams are able to start with less fuel, if that is in fact what the graphic is showing. 

Edited by Markn93, 31 March 2014 - 21:06.

[DrProzac]

It's hard to tell who it would behave when a driver has less fuel. It depends on how exactly it's measured.

 

As for RBR and it;s sensor issue, IIRC they had a problem with the fuel flow sensor. This would not affect the graphic, it probably is based on a different one.

Edited by DrProzac, 31 March 2014 - 21:08.

[PNSD]

If the fuel percentage was accurate, some teams were terrible with useage, in that having 5%+ left in the car is unwanted weight surely.

[Coops3]

It's hard to tell who it would behave when a driver has less fuel. It depends on how exactly it's measured.

 

As for RBR and it;s sensor issue, IIRC they had a problem with the fuel flow sensor. This would not affect the graphic, it probably is based on a different one.

 

I agree. So if it's based on a different sensor, would it not be logical to assume it's the same sensor that tells the teams (and has done for many years) how much fuel their drivers have got?

 

Following on from that, would it not be logical to assume that the graphic does in fact take starting fuel into account?

[Dolph]

If the fuel percentage was accurate, some teams were terrible with useage, in that having 5%+ left in the car is unwanted weight surely.

 

Not if it is fuel usage from maximum allowance.

 

Honestly it should just say liters.

[RealRacing]

A distraction to try to make up for the lack of action on the track.

[Timstr11]

Since the FIA doesn't monitor how much fuel goes into the individual tanks, you have to conclude the percentage is based on the regulatory 100KG allowance.

90% of fuel used by the end of the race than means they started with 90KG.

 

Edit: excluding fuel for the cool down lap and FIA sample I think.

Edited by Timstr11, 31 March 2014 - 21:20.

[Markn93]

Since the FIA doesn't monitor how much fuel goes into the individual tanks, you have to conclude the percentage is based on the regulatory 100KG allowance.

90% of fuel used for the whole race could mean they started with 90KG.

My thoughts exactly. 

[sopa]

A distraction to try to make up for the lack of action on the track.

 

 

 

I was waiting for the whole race for the Williams cars to speed up, start burning more fuel and catch up with others in fuel % rate. But never happened. In the beginning of the race I thought Williams had saved more fuel, because they were in traffic, stuck behind other cars and had more opportunity to save fuel. But in the end they never caught up.

[Coops3]

Since the FIA doesn't monitor how much fuel goes into the individual tanks, you have to conclude the percentage is based on the regulatory 100KG allowance.

90% of fuel used by the end of the race than means they started with 90KG.

 

Edit: excluding fuel for the cool down lap and FIA sample I think.

 

Unless FOM have access to data from the teams which they didn't previously have access to? Even if it's 'unofficial' data.

[Timstr11]

Unless FOM have access to data from the teams which they didn't previously have access to? Even if it's 'unofficial' data.

Doubt it as it would make comparisons between cars useless with car A starting with 90KG and car B with 100KG.

The percentages would not compare well for the audience. 

Edited by Timstr11, 31 March 2014 - 21:31.

[Nikolay]

It's hard to tell who it would behave when a driver has less fuel. It depends on how exactly it's measured.

As for RBR and it;s sensor issue, IIRC they had a problem with the fuel flow sensor. This would not affect the graphic, it probably is based on a different one.

Pedro de la Rosa on Antena 3 comments said there is only one FIA sensor. He was also wondering where the data on Ricciardo's car comes from if the sensor had stopped working.

[Coops3]

Doubt it as it would make comparisons between cars useless with car A starting with 90KG and car B with 100KG.

The percentages would not compare well for the audience. 

 

 

But at least it would be correct. If what you're saying is right, then it's not.

Edited by Coops3, 31 March 2014 - 21:38.

[Timstr11]

But at least it would be correct. If what you're saying is right, then it's not.

How could your assumption be correct if you don't even know the fuel starting weight?

You need to have a reference weight before you can give a percentage of that weight.

[Coops3]

How could your assumption be correct if you don't even know the fuel starting weight?

You need to have a reference weight before you can give a percentage of that weight.

 

Yeah that's what I'm saying - maybe they do know the reference weight.

 

Edit: Weight is the wrong word. What I mean is: maybe they have access to more rudimental data, i.e. data from a 'traditional' fuel tank gauge - like what you'd find in any road car. This would explain the temporary anomalies in the figures.

Edited by Coops3, 31 March 2014 - 21:54.

[Timstr11]

Yeah that's what I'm saying - maybe they do know the reference weight.

Yes they do. It's the regulatory 100 KG.

 

if not, than the fuel used graph is totally misleading and thus pointless.

[HoldenRT]

It has to be accurate otherwise there's no point.  Case in point, as someone else mentioned.. the Williams.  If it doesn't work properly it makes no sense and only adds confusion and misdirection.

[Nobody]

It shows us **** all really

[KingTiger]

I think it shows how much fuel they've used from the maximum allowance. So if a driver is at 99%, he's used 1kg of fuel. That is measured by the flow sensor. 

[Coops3]

Yes they do. It's the regulatory 100 KG.

 

if not, than the fuel used graph is totally misleading and thus pointless.

But on the other hand, would you not say it's also pointless if a driver runs out of fuel but the graphic tells us he's only used 85%?

[Markn93]

I think it shows how much fuel they've used from the maximum allowance. So if a driver is at 99%, he's used 1kg of fuel. That is measured by the flow sensor. 

The number went up throughout the race though, Lewis was at 91% with 2 laps to go, I doubt he'd used about 5kg by then.  

[4MEN]

A distraction to try to make up for the lack of action on the track.

You took the words right of my mouth. 

[Coops3]

Just to reiterate: the caption for the graphic is "Fuel Used %".

[Timstr11]

But on the other hand, would you not say it's also pointless if a driver runs out of fuel but the graphic tells us he's only used 85%?

It would tell us that the driver had 85 KG fuel for the race and that it was not enough to complete the race. Part of the game.

Edited by Timstr11, 31 March 2014 - 22:08.

[Coops3]

^ Yep, OK, so I admit that's not entirely useless information. But it would still mean the graphic doesn't actually reflect what the caption says.

[Jejking]

Sooooo... after the race we can conclude who had which weight of fuel onboard from the start and we know that they finished? Well, that doesn't help a lot......

[discover23]

Just to reiterate: the caption for the graphic is "Fuel Used %".

What is so confusing ?  what am I missing here.

[RubalSher]

It has gotta be a % of either 100KG limit or the actual fuel in each car. Given that it is very unlikely that the FIA knows how much exactly each car is fueled, it has gotta be based on the 100 KG limit. Assuming that to be the case, the % actually tells us how much fuel each car has used and that is a useful statistic. Of course it doesnt give us the whole picture but is at least one step forward in more info being shared with us.

 

I was hoping they had it on the LT app too but so far it is not there.

Edited by RubalSher, 31 March 2014 - 23:10.

[SlickMick]

What is so confusing ?  what am I missing here.

 

% of what? 100kg (plus a "bit") or the actual amount of fuel in the tank.

 

I think the reason there isn't a clear answer yet (from broadcasters) is quite telling in itself ie. the info doesn't actually tell an awful lot.

I'd guess, like others, it's based on 100kg, regardless of what was in the tank. If it's not based on what was in the tank then all it tells us is the relative confidence of the teams concerning their expected total fuel usage. 

This would address the apparent anomaly of the Williams not going hell for leather near the end, but I accept does not address the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg - that could be explained by suggesting there could be as much as a 1.5% differential based on set-up/style/in air.

 

I suppose what I'm suggesting is that cars can run out of fuel with the graphic suggesting they've only used 95% or whatever.

[InvertedLift]

What is so confusing ?  what am I missing here.

The question is: Is the fuel graphic showing % of FOB used or % of 100kg on board.

 

If it is the former then it is useful, because it shows how much each driver has used relative to how much they have. I.e if half way through the race one driver has used 50% and another 45% then it gives a useful comparison on how hard each should be able to push for the rest of the race.

 

If it is % of 100kg then it is useless because all the cars might not start with the same fuel load, and the % value can not be used for comparison.

[alfa1]

Pedro de la Rosa on Antena 3 comments said there is only one FIA sensor. He was also wondering where the data on Ricciardo's car comes from if the sensor had stopped working.

 

That sensor is a flow RATE sensor.

 

The graphic showed total amount of fuel used, probably using the same technology they did last year and other years previous, to measure how much total fuel they've used through the course of the race - by means of measuring pulses of the fuel injector. Calibrated during preseason testing.

[RubalSher]

I suppose what I'm suggesting is that cars can run out of fuel with the graphic suggesting they've only used 95% or whatever.

 

I understand what you are saying but no team will share the information of how much is left in the tank and make their strategy visible to other teams. What we are likely being told is how much fuel each driver has used and that is an interesting tidbit for us to at least compare fuel usage across teams and even within two drivers in the same team.

[RubalSher]

The question is: Is the fuel graphic showing % of FOB used or % of 100kg on board.

 

If it is the former then it is useful, because it shows how much each driver has used relative to how much they have. I.e if half way through the race one driver has used 50% and another 45% then it gives a useful comparison on how hard each should be able to push for the rest of the race.

 

If it is % of 100kg then it is useless because all the cars might not start with the same fuel load, and the % value can not be used for comparison.

 

To me the 100kg makes sense because I can at least say with certainty how much each driver has used so far. Agreed I dont know how much is left but given that everyone is already moaning about the limit being on the lesser side, you can safely assume that most teams on most tracks would be fueled much nearer the 100KG limit than away from it. So the % representation not only gives you a spot on number on how much has been used but also a good educated guess on how much is likely remaining.

 

I doubt the teams will agree to share the FOB data and that is why a % based off it cannot be calculated given that it will expose a team's strategy.

[SlickMick]

I understand what you are saying but no team will share the information of how much is left in the tank and make their strategy visible to other teams. What we are likely being told is how much fuel each driver has used and that is an interesting tidbit for us to at least compare fuel usage across teams and even within two drivers in the same team.

I agree your first sentence but was too lazy to make the same point in my post. 

I can also see how a comparison across team mates MIGHT be useful, based on some assumptions on fuel starting amount 

But comparison across teams? All it tells us is each teams relative decisions on how much to put in in the first place.

The really important data, at any and all times, is what's left. The consensus seems to be we don't have that.

 

Your later response to InvertedLift highlights a very important point. If it IS based on 100kg then we know exactly how much fuel they have used at any point. You COULD then calculate the total fuel usage if the car continued at that burn rate. Add on an appropriate amount for contingency and that could tell us how much fuel went into the car to begin with. A pedant could then recalculate the actual %. 

Okay it might be way off to assume the burn rate would continue, but I didn't particularly notice any real decrease from the lighter car over time. If I remember rightly nobody was above 50% at halfway which I was kinda expecting given the 50kg-ish weight loss they would have just accomplished. 

It might also not cater for an aggressive strategy, but I cannot see any of these teams going that route, right now.

However......., if you had the resources, gathered every teams data, plotted that over the course of a full race and several GPs, then perhaps trends per team could emerge, with the result that teams could accurately predict another teams starting fuel, and amount left based on the % of 100kg. 

 

I'm waffling now and if I'm talking nonsense then throw me some slack - I'm pulling a non-stop 30 hour shift at work and I'm starting to get a bit dizzy :-) 

 

Anyway, given the rubbish LT, I will hang on any bit of info, relevant or not, that is thrown my way.     

[OO7]

^ Yep, OK, so I admit that's not entirely useless information. But it would still mean the graphic doesn't actually reflect what the caption says.

A more accurate caption I guess would be "% of maximum allowable fuel used".

[discover23]

The question is: Is the fuel graphic showing % of FOB used or % of 100kg on board.

 

If it is the former then it is useful, because it shows how much each driver has used relative to how much they have. I.e if half way through the race one driver has used 50% and another 45% then it gives a useful comparison on how hard each should be able to push for the rest of the race.

 

If it is % of 100kg then it is useless because all the cars might not start with the same fuel load, and the % value can not be used for comparison.

it should be the percentage used against the 100kg which is the required fuel level . 

 

By the way we are not getting that graphic yet here in the US. 

Edited by discover23, 01 April 2014 - 01:20.

[KingTiger]

The number went up throughout the race though, Lewis was at 91% with 2 laps to go, I doubt he'd used about 5kg by then.  

 

Ah, then it's just the other way around. If it's shown at 1% then he's used up 1kg of fuel out of his 100 kg allowance. 

[6string]

I had a good chuckle reading this thread. Might be a bit condescending, but seriously, why the confusion? Every single car uses their maximum 100kg per race. There is no conjecture about who has what amount of fuel onboard at the start of a race. Therefore 1% = 1kg used.

[IamFasterthanU]

^^Yea, Bottas commented something on the lines that they started with less fuel. Kind of backs the rumors that Merc is the most efficient PU seeing the lower consumption of most of the Merc powered teams.

[Zava]

A more accurate caption I guess would be "% of maximum allowable fuel used".

or an easier one: "fuel used [kg]"