99 replies to this topic

[Spillage]

An interesting point about the number of drivers from northern England racing in IndyCars was raised in the St Petersburg thread yesterday, and caused me to realise something peculiar - since Justin Wilson's last race in 2003, four English drivers have competed in Formula 1 Grands Prix - and they have all been from the south of the country. That may not sound so unusual, but Wilson himself is something of an anomaly -there's been the occasional Midlander (Nigel Mansell, Geoff Lees, Brian Henton), but Wilson aside one must go all the way back to the 1970s and Guy Edwards to find the last northerner to start a Formula 1 Grand Prix.

 

During this time several northern drivers have competed in America - the aforementioned Wilson, Darren Manning, James Jakes and now Jack Hawksworth - all within the past seven years. It's also worth pointing out that several Scottish drivers have competed in F1 during this period, as have a handful of Northern Irishmen.

 

So my question is - why no Formula 1 drivers from northern England? Is it some sort of north-south wealth/opportunity divide? Do sponsors and teams prefer polished southern accents? Or is it just a coincidence?

[Tenmantaylor]

Great topic! There is certainly a big enough pool of talent in the North of England and definitely many motorsport fans but no, I don't think it's a coincidence. F1 and top flight motorsport has an affinity with money and the history of F1 and Motorsport itself is very much rooted in the Southern, wealthier half of the country. Donington aside it's where all the F1 tracks have always been and F1 teams have almost always had their HQs and power bases in Southern England (now focused around the M4 and M40 tech corridors). That said F1 does actually now have it's own bonafide Northern team in Marussia (effectively Manor Motorsport from Sheffield who Lewis Hamilton used to drive for pre-F1) but yes, there have been a distinct lack of Northern accents on the grid. Carl Fogarty and Cal Crutchlow are probably the most famous Northern English motorsport participants I can recall but they are very notably in motorbike racing. The poor man's motorsport. None of this would explain the large amount of Northern Irish drivers however. A very different Northern.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 31 March 2014 - 22:43.

[wepmob2000]

Good question! There's certainly no lack of karting facilities up here in the North, but there is a lack of full size circuits (I can only think of Croft). And I always have to travel to Donington or further south for anything much beyond tin-tops....

[Exb]

That said F1 does actually now have it's own bonafide Northern team in Marussia (effectively Manor Motorsport from Sheffield who Lewis Hamilton used to drive for pre-F1)

And even Marussia moved the F1 team down South. (Banbury)

[Disgrace]

... Carl Fogarty and Cal Crutchlow are probably the most famous Northern English motorsport participants I can recall but they are very notably in motorbike racing...

 

Not forgetting Tom Sykes. WSBK at present represents all of the British Isles bar Scotland.

[wrighty]

There's only one F1 in the North

 

 

Edited by wrighty, 01 April 2014 - 07:48.

[wrighty]

http://f1stockcars.com/ sry (post won't allow a link and an image for some reason)

[ExFlagMan]

Just ask yourselves where all the financial wealth in the UK is concentrated and that might give a clue.

[DS27]

I know you are specifically saying North 'England', but if it was purely down to polished southern accents for PR or the so called north / south wealth divide, then that doesn't help account for Paul Di Resta on either account, and although obviously from Scotland, I think it's relevant enought to both those arguements.

How about something more simple. I don't know what is classed as South / Midlands / North these days, but what % of the population lives in the North compared to the rest of the country? If it's only say 25% of the country's population, then you would only expect about 1 in 4 to be from that region on average.

[Lotus53B]

There have been plenty of jocks though (I must point out I live in  Edinburgh).

 

Wealth distribution as has been pointed out is probably the cause, and there are probably more accessible facilities down south.

 

Although, depending on what you count as "North" there are quite a few circuits

[Tsarwash]

We tend to think of Manchester as the North, although to be fair to us, we never, ever travel north of Birmingham, unless it's to go to Scotland.

[froggy22]

Wealth and population are the main factors. I'd expect there to be more people who live "South" thanks to London. Both these factors will also mean there are better facilities down south as well. I feel that being from the Midlands(West Midlands) there seemed to be a lack of facilities and the nearest race tracks to me are all an hours drive away.

 

I've just had a look at recent English drivers in the lower formulas and to be fair there are a few drivers who aren't from the "south".

 

James Calado (Worcestershire), Jon Lancaster(Leeds), Jack Harvey (Lincolnshire), Nick Yelloly(Stafford), Oliver Webb(Manchester), Oliver Rowland(Sheffield), Jann Mardenborough(County Durham, almost as north as it gets)

[Tenmantaylor]

There's only one F1 in the North

 

 

 

Remember Frankie dominating at Odsal stadium when they were still allowed to race there. The sound of twenty 5/6 and 7 litre carburetted fire spitting V8s in the bowl there was truly something to behold.

[tifosiMac]

Just ask yourselves where all the financial wealth in the UK is concentrated and that might give a clue.

I think this is the key plus all of the F1 teams in Britain are around Southern England.

 

Radio conversations can be hard enough to understand at the best of times without Northern drivers missing words out and saying things like 'car is bag a shyte, comin in ta pit'

 

Joking of course, I'm a Southern fairy what do I know?  

[wrighty]

Remember Frankie dominating at Odsal stadium when they were still allowed to race there. The sound of twenty 5/6 and 7 litre carburetted fire spitting V8s in the bowl there was truly something to behold.

 

Alas Odsal is no more (and despite more threatened comebacks than ..... erm...... oh yeah Jacques Villeneuve to F1 haha it's not likely to happen) but Owlerton Stadium in Sheffield holds a couple of meetings a year and it's a good fast track for spectators.....May 5th and Nov 9th....pm me

[Jamiednm]

Just ask yourselves where all the financial wealth in the UK is concentrated and that might give a clue.

 

That's irrelevant. There are plenty of affluent areas - and millionaires (shock horror) outside the south east!

[BRG]

The location of F1 teams is totally irrelevant.  As is the question of accents - after all, teams employ drivers like Kobayashi who are almost unintelligible in English, then there are the Aussies who are even worse.

 

Nor is it about wealth.  It is well known that Northerners have a better standard of living than Southerners because their housing is half the price, as is nearly everything else. So they have more disposable income to blow on racing.

 

It is just demographics.  Most English people (regrettably) live in the southern half of the country.  So most of the very, very few who reach the top will be from the South.  Also, any statistician will tell you that the numbers involved are far too low to make any meaningful analysis anyway.

[Tenmantaylor]

Maybe but the domestic market of Japan is worth a tad more than that of Northern England.

 

I can see the powerpoint presentation of the marketing exec who makes the case to sign the next Northern Wunderkind:

 

"Think of the promotional head gear. We could shift a right load o' these!"

 

 

"The houses are small and closely packed together... denser target market!"

 

 

"The locals love their motorsport"

 

 

"And the locals are welcoming and friendly to foreigners"

 

[TheUltimateWorrier]

"Think of the promotional head gear. We could shift a right load o' these!"

 

.

 

 

Funny you mention flat caps.

 

 

Loved by Southern Toffs and 'Mericans.

[jimbox01]

Single seater, open cockpit, what ever you want to call it = mainly middle class+

Bike racing = working class

 

What parts of the country have the highest proportion of working class (does it still exist as a term?) people?

 

Maybe my view is somewhat skewed by the fact that I grew up around the same area as the Haslams, at a time when the main career choices were either going down the pit or working in a factory, and the idea of being a racing driver was about as realistic as being an astronaut - bikes though, that was another matter entirely...

 

Obviously times have changed in the last 30-40 years, but general attitudes and perceptions can take a while to catch up.

 

How many current BSB riders are northern or 'working class'?  Shakey Byrne's may be from Sittingbourne, but that's like the Kent equivalent of Langley Mill.

 

Posh southerners race single seaters, northerners race bikes, and Essex boys go banger racing.

[tifosiMac]

The location of F1 teams is totally irrelevant.  As is the question of accents - after all, teams employ drivers like Kobayashi who are almost unintelligible in English, then there are the Aussies who are even worse.

I hope you realise there wasn't an ounce of seriousness in my comment about accents, I did say I was joking  

[Mart280]

It would  be great to have a northerner F1 driver with a really thick accent........"Eee by gum Seb, thee past me on't inside afore 't chicane agin and th'all wallop thee"

[scheivlak]

So - silly question from a non-Englishman - where does Northern England begin?

 

I googled "northern england map" and the first result was a map of London with an arrow pointing at Victoria Station 

[Schumster]

So - silly question from a non-Englishman - where does Northern England begin?

 

I googled "northern england map" and the first result was a map of London with an arrow pointing at Victoria Station 

Anything above London is North. In between London & Birmingham is Middle England and anything above Birmingham is the North *cough* shithole *cough*.

[ExFlagMan]

Wealth and population are the main factors. I'd expect there to be more people who live "South" thanks to London. Both these factors will also mean there are better facilities down south as well. I feel that being from the Midlands(West Midlands) there seemed to be a lack of facilities and the nearest race tracks to me are all an hours drive away.

For most of the motor racing population of the UK having Silverstone, Donington, Mallory and Rockingham almost on the doorstep would be deemed a luxury - 'But you try and tell the young people of today that......'

[Fastcake]

Anything above London is North. In between London & Birmingham is Middle England and anything above Birmingham is the North *cough* shithole *cough*.

 

Ooo, you've set yourself up for it there. Everyone knows the exact boundaries of the north and the Midlands are a complete mystery.

[stewie]

When you're from Bournemouth, everything is the north!

[purplehaireddolphin]

Wealth and population are the main factors. I'd expect there to be more people who live "South" thanks to London. Both these factors will also mean there are better facilities down south as well. I feel that being from the Midlands(West Midlands) there seemed to be a lack of facilities and the nearest race tracks to me are all an hours drive away.

 

I've just had a look at recent English drivers in the lower formulas and to be fair there are a few drivers who aren't from the "south".

 

James Calado (Worcestershire), Jon Lancaster(Leeds), Jack Harvey (Lincolnshire), Nick Yelloly(Stafford), Oliver Webb(Manchester), Oliver Rowland(Sheffield), Jann Mardenborough(County Durham, almost as north as it gets)

and sadly, none of them are likely to get a sniff of F1 due to all the pay drivers coming in from other countries with government backing.

 

Calado was reserve driver for Force India last year, so I hoped he'd have had a chance, but no - nothing 

 

And while we're on the subject, how about Dan Cammish? He's from Leeds and in F Ford last year won 24 out of 24 races! Yet this year, he can't find a drive - I just find it rediculous, I wish I could win the Euromillions and sponsor one or two of them 

[Amphicar]

I reckon the closest we ever had to an F1 star from up North was Brian Redman, who drove for Cooper, Rob Walker, Frank Williams, Surtees, McLaren, BRM and Shadow during his 6 year F1 career from 1968 to 1974. His best result was 3rd place in his second F1 race, the 1968 Spanish Grand Prix. As a true Lancastrian, he disliked the rather precious atmosphere of F! and concluded that he would be better off (in every sense) switching to the US F5000 Championship, which he won three years in a row.

 

We may not have had many F1 drivers from the North but let's not forget that the British Grand Prix was held at Aintree five times between 1955 and 1962, not to mention the non-Championship Gold Cup races held at Oulton Park from 1954 to 1982.

[BRG]

I hope you realise there wasn't an ounce of seriousness in my comment about accents, I did say I was joking

And my response wasn't completely serious, was it?

 

So - silly question from a non-Englishman - where does Northern England begin?

 

It is a grey area.  Not the North, that is, but the question of the boundary.  One answer is Watford Gap (the first motorway service area, on the M1).  Heading north up the M1  from London, the road signs say "The North" until Watford Gap, thereafter it is actual places.  Likewise. heading south down the M1 from Leeds, the road signs read"The South" until Watford Gap.

 

Another way to tell if you have entered the North is to look around at dogs - if they are whippets, you have left the South. If they are Labradors, you are still in the South.

[Amphicar]

And my response wasn't completely serious, was it?

 

It is a grey area.  Not the North, that is, but the question of the boundary.  One answer is Watford Gap (the first motorway service area, on the M1).  Heading north up the M1  from London, the road signs say "The North" until Watford Gap, thereafter it is actual places.  Likewise. heading south down the M1 from Leeds, the road signs read"The South" until Watford Gap.

 

Another way to tell if you have entered the North is to look around at dogs - if they are whippets, you have left the South. If they are Labradors, you are still in the South.

It also depends where you are when you ask the question. Cheshire born and Cheshire bred (strong i'th'arm and weak i'th'ead), I always thought of myself as a Northener but when I went to Newcastle University, the Geordies considered that anything south of Manchester was the Midlands.

[Risil]

How many current BSB riders are northern or 'working class'?  Shakey Byrne's may be from Sittingbourne, but that's like the Kent equivalent of Langley Mill.

 

Plenty, although the latest crop of British riders seems to contain a lot of riders from that not-Southeast-but-not-West-Country land in Oxfordshire, Gloucestershire and North Wiltshire. I'm thinking Danny Kent, Bradley Smith, Scott Redding; Jordan Weaving and Tommy Bridewell are worth keeping an eye on too.

 

Sykes, Crutchlow, Haslam, Davies and the Lowes twins are vaguely northern (West Yorkshire, Coventry, Derbyshire, mid-Wales and Lincolnshire respectively) although none of those would be considered deprived areas. And then you've got Leon Camier and Shakey Byrne from Kent and Gino Rea who I guess is from London.

 

My feeling is that parents who wouldn't think twice about supporting their child doing karting might be wary of letting them on a motorbike. I reckon most riders who started racing before adulthood had a biker parent, which biases things towards rural upbringings a bit. I grew up in North Gloucestershire (as it turns out among a dazzling array of racing talent) and you'd always hear about someone in another year at school who did dirt biking or road racing competitively. My girlfriend's from Powys and she reports a similar thing about rally drivers. Can't say I've ever known anyone who did single-seaters or even go karts competitively though.

Edited by Risil, 01 April 2014 - 19:27.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I was surprised by Hawksworth's accent. It was about the closest thing you'd get to a working class(-esque) accent in single seaters these days.

[Mandzipop]

South Yorkshire hasn't done too bad. Had an F1 WDC, a team and most recently Justin Wilson. Got Manor Motorsports too which has had a few famous names driving their cars over the years.

 

Last I heard South Yorkshire was up north.

[Risil]

South Yorkshire hasn't done too bad. Had an F1 WDC, a team and most recently Justin Wilson. Got Manor Motorsports too which has had a few famous names driving their cars over the years.

 

Last I heard South Yorkshire was up north.

 

I did not know that Mike Hawthorn was from Yorkshire. From the same small town that gave us Brian Blessed, Ted Hughes, Dan Clarke and Spinal Tap inspiration Graham Oliver. Not bad! I wish I was northern!

[Ross Stonefeld]

You and everyone listening to 6music.

[Tenmantaylor]

The North doesn't start till Lancashire/Yorkshire/Lincolnshire IMYO

[Tenmantaylor]

I forgot about Aintree, Amphicar. Did they stop when the pit crew took the wheels off at the pitstop and ran off with them?

[SpartanChas]

James Calado isn't Northern!  

 

Same thing with Wales I guess. Not sure if Jann Mardenborough is welsh or what, but other than that you've got Tom Pryce as far as Welsh F1 drivers go. Compared to Scotland which has had loads.

 

This is the most prominent Northerner in F1 these days:

 

Edited by SpartanChas, 01 April 2014 - 21:17.

[BobbyRicky]

There is one guy from Denmark, one from Sweden and two from Finland. Thats quite far up North that.

[froggy22]

It also depends where you are when you ask the question. Cheshire born and Cheshire bred (strong i'th'arm and weak i'th'ead), I always thought of myself as a Northener but when I went to Newcastle University, the Geordies considered that anything south of Manchester was the Midlands.

Yeah it differs from area to area. I consider "the north" starts when you pass Stoke, so to me Cheshire is in the north. I've noticed some southerners don't even acknowledge the Midlands as a thing and think the north-south divide starts north of Birmingham.

[tifosiMac]

And my response wasn't completely serious, was it?

I don't know that is why I quoted you, but I now assume it wasn't so thanks for clarifying 

[stanga]

I think this is the key plus all of the F1 teams in Britain are around Southern England.

 

Radio conversations can be hard enough to understand at the best of times without Northern drivers missing words out and saying things like 'car is bag a shyte, comin in ta pit'

 

Joking of course, I'm a Southern fairy what do I know?

 

That even your pastiche of a Northern dialect is inaccurate? 

[tifosiMac]

That even your pastiche of a Northern dialect is inaccurate? 

It likely is I know 'nowt' about the Northern twang me old mucker. I'm a Midlander who grew up in the South East and now resides in Taffy Land  

[stanga]

It likely is I know 'nowt' about the Northern twang me old mucker. I'm a Midlander who grew up in the South East and now resides in Taffy Land  

 

It is good that we have such a diverse range of dialects and accents over such a small country. Keeps it interesting. 

[Markn93]

The thread title sounds like the beginning of a joke.

[tifosiMac]

It is good that we have such a diverse range of dialects and accents over such a small country. Keeps it interesting. 

It does. You only have to travel 10 miles in Wales and its a different accent much like the North of England. It also begs the question, where are all the Welsh F1 drivers? I can only think of one from the past and that was Tom Pryce. 

 

Smaller populations in certain area's and not enough motorsport facilities I think  

[Treads]

It also depends where you are when you ask the question. Cheshire born and Cheshire bred (strong i'th'arm and weak i'th'ead), I always thought of myself as a Northener but when I went to Newcastle University, the Geordies considered that anything south of Manchester was the Midlands.

 

First off, OP, great topic!

 

On this point... let's look at the details. Derby is definitely the Midlands, no one would dispute that surely, but for me it's also getting to the extremities of the midlands. 

 

Where is absolutely definitely northern... say Leeds, where I'm from. No question. Also Manchester, also Liverpool. Getting a bit further South... Sheffield. Also, I would say, definitely Northern. 

 

But then we really get into the difficult section as from Sheffield to Derby is less than 30 miles as the crow flies. Let's see - Stockport - north of Sheffield, but definitely Northern. Macclesfield, just 10 miles south, I would say is Midlands. And happily for me, the one falls into Lancashire, the other into Cheshire. 

 

Working across from Liverpool, let's call the counties. Merseyside - northern. Lancashire - northern. Yorkshire - Northern. Derbyshire - on balance, Midlands. Nottinghamshire - Midlands. Lincolnshire - this is is a tricky one, maybe our first split? Cheshire - again - maybe split? Because we are an old country, not like the US, our county borders don't run in nice straight lines. 

 

Hmmmm, I am beginning to zone this down to a line between Chester and Lincoln. This makes sense as Skegness would then fall below the line, no northerner would ever go to Skegness for their seaside weekend. A true northerner would go to Scarborough or Blackpool or Filey.

 

But there you have it - absolutely definitive. The north is everywhere above the imaginary line drawn between Chester and Lincoln. There will be a few kinks in the line maybe. But you, Amphicar, are a borderlander, truly. ;-)

[tifosiMac]

Anywhere North of Derby is the North I would say. From Derby down to Stratford Upon Avon is the Midlands and the South starts beyond that. 

[Jimisgod]

 

Average weekly income. Excuse my lack of surprise if most successful drivers come from the blue areas.