57 replies to this topic

[bonjon1979a]

Okay, I thought I heard this during the race but then thought it must be to do with upchanges but apparently not. This is taken from F1fanatic radio transcript from the GP.

 

  Red Bull drivers get an audio ‘beep’ telling them when to lift the throttle approaching corners to save fuel.
OK Daniel, just hit the beeps. Hit the lift-off beeps. Fuel is OK, hit the beeps.

 

So Red Bull have a computer system that tells the drivers when to lift off on every corner to save fuel. Do any of the other teams have this? It's really pretty concerning as effectively the drivers aren't driving at all. Just following the beeps that allow them to lift and coast without having to judge it for themselves. You may as well stick a robot in the car, it could explain why we're seeing the 'racing' we're seeing this year. In previous years we've seen cars close up as a driver takes a little more out of his car/fuel/tyres while another saves. This year, everyone seems to be doing exactly the same thing, no one pressing, everyone just circulating and I wonder if there's something going on with regards to teams following strict fuel saving strategy that are being predetermined by a computer.

[Clatter]

I was surprised to hear this as well. I'm sure this is something that all the teams have and have probably had in place before this season. Seems there is less and less actually required of the drivers.

[boldhakka]

Lewis Hamilton did an interview/piece on the BBC where he says that finding the optimum braking point when you lift-and-coast is difficult, and that this makes it harder to extract good lap times while doing the lift-and-coast compared to regular braking. So it's non-trivial even with the beep. This is an area where the driver can actually make a difference. 

Edited by boldhakka, 02 April 2014 - 12:38.

[hodgy21]

I was surprised to hear this as well. I'm sure this is something that all the teams have and have probably had in place before this season. Seems there is less and less actually required of the drivers.

 

Do you not think that the driver changing all those settings on the steering wheel makes it harder? I don't know about you, but when I saw an image of this years steering wheels I thought they looked much more complex than last years versions. I think these cars sound pretty complicated to drive. They are having to balance the throttle, brake and gears, whilst changing engine maps and differential settings, switching various rotaries and gesticulating at other drivers all whilst listening out for a beep in their ear for when they have to lift off before they brake. You say less required, I say more required. Difference of opinion that's all. 

[Jon83]

[Fastcake]

Yes I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't new. They've had gear change beeps for a long time now. Since they are allowed to do that, it's sensible to have other audio cues for things like fuel saving.

I don't like it however. Tell them if they need to save more fuel sure, but leave it to the drivers to manage by themselves.

[hodgy21]

 

Why the sad face buddy?

[PayasYouRace]

Just like those little red telltails that tachometers had in the 1960s, telling drivers when to shift up so they wouldn't overev their engines.

 

By the there's a quote from Bottas:

 

When I asked Valtteri Bottas about this and the fact that Williams had apparently short-fuelled, his reply was remarkable.

"Yeah, it was not 100kg," said the Finn. "There was no fuel-saving required."

 

In Edd Straw's article for subscribers but might be elsewhere. http://plus.autospor...-a-bad-f1-team/

[bonjon1979a]

Right, I've had a look at this and I think it's a breech of the sporting regulations.

 

 

DRIVING

20.1

The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

 

i would say that the beeps are aiding with the driving of the car. Likewise the beeps that tell him when to upshift. If the FIA wanted to stop this, I suspect they could do it.

 

I mean, they're telling him when to lift off which is effectively instructing him when to brake for the corner. I can't see how this isn't aiding in the driving of the car.

 

Maybe we should add an 'Illegal?' to the title of the thread.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 April 2014 - 12:54.

[hodgy21]

Yes I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't new. They've had gear change beeps for a long time now. Since they are allowed to do that, it's sensible to have other audio cues for things like fuel saving.

I don't like it however. Tell them if they need to save more fuel sure, but leave it to the drivers to manage by themselves.

 

Surely you can see the reason for the beep. A formula 1 team is not going to let the driver get the fuel saving wrong and risk loosing a position, just the same as the driver doesn't want to loose a position by getting it wrong. This is the current state of formula 1, the teams will try to minimise their risks so if it takes a beep in the ear to accomplish this, that is what they will do.

[Paul McLucas]

The question I have is "How does the car know when to beep?".

 

Presumably it is how far they are from the corner so I would guess GPS.  But could it be something else?

[hodgy21]

Right, I've had a look at this and I think it's a breech of the sporting regulations.

 

 

DRIVING

20.1

The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

 

i would say that the beeps are aiding with the driving of the car. Likewise the beeps that tell him when to upshift. If the FIA wanted to stop this, I suspect they could do it.

 

I mean, they're telling him when to lift off which is effectively instructing him when to brake for the corner. I can't see how this isn't aiding in the driving of the car.

 

Maybe we should add an 'Illegal?' to the title of the thread.

 

Good point. Is it a case of the pit wall controlling a part of the car via the driver?

[Skinnyguy]

Right, I've had a look at this and I think it's a breech of the sporting regulations.


DRIVING
20.1
The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

i would say that the beeps are aiding with the driving of the car. Likewise the beeps that tell him when to upshift. If the FIA wanted to stop this, I suspect they could do it.

I mean, they're telling him when to lift off which is effectively instructing him when to brake for the corner. I can't see how this isn't aiding in the driving of the car.

Maybe we should add an 'Illegal?' to the title of the thread.

No. It's not different to the rev LEDs or more primitive rev counters instructing the driver when to upshift.

[Fastcake]

Surely you can see the reason for the beep. A formula 1 team is not going to let the driver get the fuel saving wrong and risk loosing a position, just the same as the driver doesn't want to loose a position by getting it wrong. This is the current state of formula 1, the teams will try to minimise their risks so if it takes a beep in the ear to accomplish this, that is what they will do.

I am aware of the reason behind it, but you could make the same argument for automatic gearboxes or traction control. It takes away too much control from the driver. I'm sure the teams will want the beeps for optimum fuel saving, but in my opinion it's a step too far. Leave it to the driver to figure out, and if they muck it up then so be it.

[bonjon1979a]

No. It's not different to the rev LEDs or more primitive rev counters instructing the driver when to upshift.

I'm sorry, I don't see how something that tells the driver when to lift off for the corner isn't aiding with their driving.

 

The rev counter is always the same, it reacts to the engine and communicates the speed of the drive shaft. The driver then uses this information to decide when to change gear. The lift off beeps must be being calculated by computers away from the car, probably even away from the track, instructing the driver where to lift off on each corner. No doubt they're adjusted as data is analysed back at headquarters or on the pitwall and fed back to the driver to give them the optimum fuel conservation. This to me is aiding quite significantly in the actual driving of the car and I think it's a big problem.

[Paul McLucas]

If the beeps are sent by the pits to the car, isn't that illegal?

 

I thought pit to car telemetry was banned.

 

If it's not, why don't the pits just set the torque maps and diffs and stuff remotely?

[Paul McLucas]

If you have GPS (and they do) you would use it, but you can use lap distance information for something like this too.

It is/was used in many other series, where you don't have the luxury of GPS. 

 

In a nutshell, every time the car crosses the S/F line, a counter resets to zero, and then counts the distance traveled.

You can then write a condition like "beep @ 300 m" " beep @ 950 m" etc. etc.

Such strategies were used in the past to control and affect things like anti roll bar settings and opening and closing cooling ducts - it's pretty straight forward.

Thank you, that explains it very well.

[Skinnyguy]

I'm sorry, I don't see how something that tells the driver when to lift off for the corner isn't aiding with their driving.

The rev counter is always the same, it reacts to the engine and communicates the speed of the drive shaft. The driver then uses this information to decide when to change gear.

The beeps are always the same, they react to car positioning and communicate to the driver where he is. Then the driver uses this information to decide when to lift the throttle, which is what slows the car down.

The driver is in full control of his car all the time, which is the requirement that piece of regulation makes.

[bonjon1979a]

The beeps are always the same, they react to car positioning and communicate to the driver where he is. Then the driver uses this information to decide when to lift the throttle, which is what slows the car down.

The driver is in full control of his car all the time, which is the requirement that piece of regulation makes.

That's not what the regulations say and how do you know that the beeps are always the same?  The regulation is clear - he must drive 'alone' which is what you mean by in full control of his car but also he must be 'unaided'.

 

It is undeniable that the beeps are aiding the driver in the driving of the car as it's instructing him when to lift his foot of the throttle to conserve fuel. I could see the FIA or one of the other teams having a successful protest against this, not that I think they will.

[Skinnyguy]

I think the illegality claims come from bad understanding of the text.

All that article means is that all elements that control the car movement must be under full control of the driver.

Ie: the car can't feed power on rear wheels by itself to unlock rear wheels under braking.

Cars are full of visual and sound clues for the drivers to follow so what unaided means is pretty clear by now

Edited by Skinnyguy, 02 April 2014 - 13:32.

[bonjon1979a]

I see your point & argument

But on the other hand, while a "rev counter·" does what you say, the "shift lights" (or beeps) are pre-programed as well, and can (and likely are) different from gear to gear.

Furthermore, they can (and likely are) changed if the driver switches to another "strategy"

 

Bi-directional telemetry is banned, by the rules, so they wouldn't be able (at least not legally) to alter the position/timing of the "lift off" beep automatically, during the race.

They could have pre-programed setting (just as with the shift lights) and tell the driver, to go to another setting.

IMHO

Yep, I understand that we already have a number of things that 'aid' the driver - heck, a speedometre could be said to be aiding the drive in that it informs him of his speed. Likewise, different torque maps etc.

 

Personally, I think that instructing a driver when to take their foot off the throttle pedal is more fundamental with regard to driving the car. There are usually 50+ gear changes a lap and they're almost metronomic in their regularity. It's not something that requires a great deal of skill to get right and indeed becomes second nature for the driver, thereby you wouldn't say it's aiding their driving quite so much. Knowing exactly when to lift off and coast, to save the right amount of fuel yet still maintain pace is much more of an art form and something more difficult to master so it's more of an aid then anything like the rev counter and makes much more of a difference to the performance.

[bonjon1979a]

I think the illegality claims come from bad understanding of the text.

All that article means is that all elements that control the car movement must be under full control of the driver.

Ie: the car can't feed power on rear wheels by itself to unlock rear wheels under braking.

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what the articles mean.

 

The traction control elements you speak of are dealt with in the technical regulations, not the sporting.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 April 2014 - 13:33.

[PayasYouRace]

That's not what the regulations say and how do you know that the beeps are always the same?  The regulation is clear - he must drive 'alone' which is what you mean by in full control of his car but also he must be 'unaided'.

 

It is undeniable that the beeps are aiding the driver in the driving of the car as it's instructing him when to lift his foot of the throttle to conserve fuel. I could see the FIA or one of the other teams having a successful protest against this, not that I think they will.

 

Under that interpretation a rev counter would be illegal as it would be instructing the driver on when to change up a gear.

 

These beeps don't take any control away from the driver, and as such would be classed as instrumentation.

[Skinnyguy]

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what the articles mean

I don't, I just state what's obvious after years of watching how these regulations affected the driving.

[bonjon1979a]

Under that interpretation a rev counter would be illegal as it would be instructing the driver on when to change up a gear.

 

These beeps don't take any control away from the driver, and as such would be classed as instrumentation.

I've covered my opinion in other posts. I think it's open to interpretation and the FIA would draw the line somewhere. For me, I'd say that this is over the line for me in terms of aiding the driver.

[bonjon1979a]

I don't, I just state what's obvious after years of watching how these regulations affected the driving.

Yet you thought this regulation was about traction control. Which it absolutely isn't.

[PayasYouRace]

I've covered my opinion in other posts. I think it's open to interpretation and the FIA would draw the line somewhere. For me, I'd say that this is over the line for me in terms of aiding the driver.

 

The obvious place to draw the line is when the device does something for the driver, rather than just feeding him information. If it cut the throttle instead of just beeping at him, then it would be illegal. Beeps are do not remove any aspect of control from the driver.

[Jon83]

Why the sad face buddy?

 

I just think its a sad state of affairs mate (but I have a real downer for the sport at the moment, I admit)
 

[bonjon1979a]

The obvious place to draw the line is when the device does something for the driver, rather than just feeding him information. If it cut the throttle instead of just beeping at him, then it would be illegal. Beeps are do not remove any aspect of control from the driver.

I don't expect any ruling from the FIA but it we end up in a situation where all the cars are circulating with drivers being aided on where to lift off, where to brake, I believe they may have the grounds to do something about it using this regulation. It may well be a moot point as it seems that the merc teams aren't that close to the wire with regards to consumption.

[hodgy21]

I just think its a sad state of affairs mate (but I have a real downer for the sport at the moment, I admit)
 

 

Fair enough. Stick with it, I'm sure there will be something you will like in the up-coming race. I mean, there is bound to be a bit of controversy surrounding Ricciardo to discuss, and these beeps will not be going away any time soon   

[7MGTEsup]

Just ban pits to car radio so the driver has to think for himself and go with his instinct rather than been fed information constantly.

[Fastcake]

Just ban pits to car radio so the driver has to think for himself and go with his instinct rather than been fed information constantly.

Only if you also vastly decrease the complexity of the current cars. You can't remove radio without also addressing all the things a driver now has to manage, or be told how to manage.

[hodgy21]

Just ban pits to car radio so the driver has to think for himself and go with his instinct rather than been fed information constantly.

 

This would probably end with no one finishing the race as all of the drivers would run their cars dry to go as fast as possible.

[Hellenic tifosi]

This would probably end with no one finishing the race as all of the drivers would run their cars dry to go as fast as possible.

 

They are not idiots - of course they could manage!

 

However, the ones who have a better "feeling" could have a competitive advantage against their less technically minded competitors.

[chadwick8505]

Just a thought, if the beeps are based off distance to the corner, as someone suggested, how is it any different then distance/braking boards on the side of the track? Arguably the beeps do the exact same thing. The driver can follow the beeps or not, there's nothing forcing the driver to brake. It's just an audible cue much like the boards are a visual cue.

[johnmhinds]

Just a thought, if the beeps are based off distance to the corner, as someone suggested, how is it any different then distance/braking boards on the side of the track? Arguably the beeps do the exact same thing. The driver can follow the beeps or not, there's nothing forcing the driver to brake. It's just an audible cue much like the boards are a visual cue.

 

The distance board isn't telling you where to brake, it just says the distance to the corner, the drivers still have to work out where to brake based on the road conditions/corner design.

 

An audible beep from the car that tells a driver when to change gear or lift off isn't really in the spirit of the sport IMO, the car shouldn't be the one in control and deciding when certain things are to be done and instructing the driver to do them.

[Briz]

They are not idiots - of course they could manage!

 

However, the ones who have a better "feeling" could have a competitive advantage against their less technically minded competitors.

 

Check out San Marino 1985  

[chadwick8505]

The distance board isn't telling you where to brake, it just says the distance to the corner, the drivers still have to work out where to brake based on the road conditions/corner design.

An audible beep from the car that tells a driver when to change gear or lift off isn't really in the spirit of the sport IMO, the car shouldn't be the one in control and deciding when certain things are to be done and instructing the driver to do them.

The beep isn't exactly forcing the driver to do anything. It's just another cue. The boards tell the driver when to break just as much as the beep does.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Check out San Marino 1985

 

It might happen from time to time, but generally speaking, the drivers would adapt.

 

In any case, I feel that experimenting with a ban on pit-to-car communation could be very interesting.

[johnmhinds]

The beep isn't exactly forcing the driver to do anything. It's just another cue. The boards tell the driver when to break just as much as the beep does.

 

True the driver can ignore the beeps, but he isn't likely to ignore a car that is telling him the perfect time to do things like change gear.

 

A distance marker is different because it doesn't say "don't brake yet" or "brake here" or "you should have started braking ages ago watch out for that wall" on it. 

[spacekid]

The beep isn't exactly forcing the driver to do anything. It's just another cue. The boards tell the driver when to break just as much as the beep does.

It's not the same. The boards give set distances to act as reference markers, and aren't specific to each corner. This is more like the cones that get put out at track days. I also strongly suspect that the software adjusts the beeps to allow for fuel loss during the race (and maybe even tyre wear?) which would be like someone moving the cone for each corner around for you each lap.

I've lost so much respect for F1 these past few years I don't even care about this any more. The drivers are already given target lap times and have their fuel use and tyre wear managed for them from the pit wall (I don't buy all the stuff about this year being more a 'thinking drivers formula', being Alain Prost would be utterly pointless in 2014). If the drivers have aids telling them when to lift fine. Not exactly attacking the braking zones with this approach, are they?

[dau]

It's not the same. The boards give set distances to act as reference markers, and aren't specific to each corner. This is more like the cones that get put out at track days. I also strongly suspect that the software adjusts the beeps to allow for fuel loss during the race (and maybe even tyre wear?) which would be like someone moving the cone for each corner around for you each lap.

I've lost so much respect for F1 these past few years I don't even care about this any more. The drivers are already given target lap times and have their fuel use and tyre wear managed for them from the pit wall (I don't buy all the stuff about this year being more a 'thinking drivers formula', being Alain Prost would be utterly pointless in 2014). If the drivers have aids telling them when to lift fine. Not exactly attacking the braking zones with this approach, are they?

What has lifting to do with attacking the braking zones? You can still brake late.

[RuleyRamundo]

All them buttons and beeps these guys in F1 have to deal with. They are legends with all of that going on and then steering and flooring (not too much though) the things.

Edited by RuleyRamundo, 02 April 2014 - 21:26.

[mtknot]

The beeps may have to do with the torque curve of these engines due to the fuel flow limit. The torque curve likely tapers off at 11k RPM as the engine starves for fuel, and thus the car may produce less power at the end of the rev range, or not that much more power. Thus these beeps occur at a certain rev range, on a certain gear, like 8th gear at 11.3k rpm with a certain downforce setting at a certain track. Why does this happen? The driver could floor it and use more fuel, or lift off slightly and coast at 11k rpm, instead of 12k rpm, and go almost just as fast, minus 1 or 2 km/h - it is diminishing returns for the amount of fuel you use at higher revs. 

  
Ultimately, nothing illegal.

Edited by mtknot, 02 April 2014 - 21:46.

[EthanM]

They have had gearchange beeps for like over a decade, there's an interview with Coulthard in McLaren overalls that he talks about it, the jist of what he said was the lights on the dash are nice but nobody pays attention, they upshift on the beep the ECU sends them

[john_smith]

if the beeps are based on distance traveled from the start/finish line, then wouldn't it be off in the laps where the car tries to overtake, runs wide at a corner, or has to move over under blue flags? basically any time the car doesn't follow the racing line.

 

also, the amount of grip changes lap by lap - due to decreasing fuel, tyre wear, temperature, etc. - so the braking point (and presumably, lifting point) gradually changes. how do the beeps account for this?

[Clatter]

Do you not think that the driver changing all those settings on the steering wheel makes it harder? I don't know about you, but when I saw an image of this years steering wheels I thought they looked much more complex than last years versions. I think these cars sound pretty complicated to drive. They are having to balance the throttle, brake and gears, whilst changing engine maps and differential settings, switching various rotaries and gesticulating at other drivers all whilst listening out for a beep in their ear for when they have to lift off before they brake. You say less required, I say more required. Difference of opinion that's all. 

Maybe, but most of the changes they need to make are relayed by the team, and I want to see the drivers make the actual decisions when it comes to driving the car, not the computer. I want to see who really is best at getting the most from the equipment, not who has the best do it now mapping.

[chipmcdonald]

It's easy enough for the car to calculate both where it is, based on wheel rotation, and accellerometers.   

 

It's sad that drivers are driving to "lift off" beeps.  

[ultimatebourne]

Okay, I thought I heard this during the race but then thought it must be to do with upchanges but apparently not. This is taken from F1fanatic radio transcript from the GP.

 

  Red Bull drivers get an audio ‘beep’ telling them when to lift the throttle approaching corners to save fuel.
OK Daniel, just hit the beeps. Hit the lift-off beeps. Fuel is OK, hit the beeps.

 

So Red Bull have a computer system that tells the drivers when to lift off on every corner to save fuel. Do any of the other teams have this? It's really pretty concerning as effectively the drivers aren't driving at all. Just following the beeps that allow them to lift and coast without having to judge it for themselves. You may as well stick a robot in the car, it could explain why we're seeing the 'racing' we're seeing this year. In previous years we've seen cars close up as a driver takes a little more out of his car/fuel/tyres while another saves. This year, everyone seems to be doing exactly the same thing, no one pressing, everyone just circulating and I wonder if there's something going on with regards to teams following strict fuel saving strategy that are being predetermined by a computer.

 

I wonder if Ricciardo would get some extra/earlier beeps if he ever finds himself catching up Seb during a race?

[alfa1]

If the beeps are sent by the pits to the car, isn't that illegal?

 

I thought pit to car telemetry was banned.

 

Under the start finish line (and several other places around the track) is a small transmitter antenna run by the FIA.

Its job is to send a signal to a transponder of a car crossing that part of the track, and the transponder would send back a signal stating the car's identity.

 

Teams can also detect, for their own purposes, that radio signal.

 

As a side story, teams several years back noticed that the "jump start" detector signal (under each grid spot) was turned off at the moment the race started, and cleverly incorporated this event into their car launch program.

I do believe that idea is banned now though.

Edited by alfa1, 03 April 2014 - 03:05.