60 replies to this topic

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

He left with his head held high. He proved he still had the speed but not the consistency anymore. He deserved his place in F1 definstely. When was the last time you saw an athlete that *old* and still competitive? Bernard Hopkins? George Foreman?

[Briz]

What if Senna would have lived, would he have won the WDC crown in 1994 or 1995?. There was speculation that Senna would have jumped to Ferrari in 1996/1997. How that would have effected Schumi is up for debate.

 

That is an interesting what if. I think had Senna walked away after the crash, Schumacher could have still fought to the end for the title as long as he didn't give a chance to the FIA to take away so many races from him. Remember he was practically banned from 4 races (all of which Hill won). I think had that not happened, going into the 4th race with a 30 points advantage and in the form he was, with a pretty good car too, Schumi had decent chances to win the title even against Senna. Not a huge chance, but decent. Who knows, we could have had a title deciding Schumi-Senna crash at Adelaide, that would have been such a classic . Of course 1995 would be almost impossible to win against Ayrton.

[sennafan24]

That is an interesting what if. I think had Senna walked away after the crash, Schumacher could have still fought to the end for the title as long as he didn't give a chance to the FIA to take away so many races from him. Remember he was practically banned from 4 races (all of which Hill won). I think had that not happened, going into the 4th race with a 30 points advantage and in the form he was, with a pretty good car too, Schumi had decent chances to win the title even against Senna. Not a huge chance, but decent. Who knows, we could have had a title deciding Schumi-Senna crash at Adelaide, that would have been such a classic . Of course 1995 would be almost impossible to win against Ayrton.

Yes an alternative reality might not include Schumi being banned.

 

But as underrated as Hill is, Senna was a good few notches above him. Mechanical problems aside, I could not see Senna losing another race in 1994 if he would have lived! (I believe Hill had zero mechanical problems for the rest of the year) The pace in the Williams was undeniable, and if Hill could finish in front of Schumi a few times. then you are looking at 6 point swings some weekends in Senna's favor. Places like Monaco, Jerez, Hungary and Germany I am confident that Senna would have produced better results than Hill managed. France and Canada Schumi also finished ahead of Hill, I do not think he would have done if Senna would have been in that Williams.

 

Senna was in the form of his life in 1994, he put almost a full lap between him and his teammate in the first race before he pushed the car a little too hard. Newey said it was a minor miracle some of the stuff Senna did with that Williams in the first two races, it is a shame he had that collision with Mika, as he really deserved to have some points to show for his efforts. It was after Imola that Williams brought the upgrades to stop it being an inconsistent and faulty car, I believe that they brought some upgrades for Imola weekend.

 

Anyway that is purely my opinion, we shall never know for sure.

 

It is interesting, that other than 1996 and 2005, from 1994 until his first retirement,  Schumi was either World Champion, or one mistake/incident away from being WDC (would anyone dispute that he would have been Champion in 1999 if not for the Silverstone incident?)

 

I think you could argue that 10 WDC, was a real possibility for Schumi. If you could go back to 1994 in a time machine and get the same drivers and teams to race again, and repeated the same scenarios up until 2006, I think Schumi would win at least 3, and up to around 10 WDC's. Even if Senna would have lived, Schumi was younger and would have taken the field as his own in the early 2000's at the latest.

Edited by sennafan24, 03 April 2014 - 21:27.

[schuey91]

As a diehard Schumacher fan since 1998 - when I was seven, it was something majestic to see his return in 2010.

 

Even though it didn't work out, the aura associated with seeing him back out there more than compensated for lack of success.

 

I'll never forget the joy I felt when he was on the podium at Valencia, or the "pole" at Monaco - I genuinely believed he'd have won that race if not for the grid penalty.

 

As for the potential of more championships, it should be noted for people saying he could have won ten or eleven titles, I don't think this would have been realistic.

 

It's been strongly reported - notably by James Allen, that Schuey would likely have retired initially a lot sooner than 2006 had he not crashed at Silverstone in '99.

 

It was this moment which allowed him to take the foot off the pedal for a while - what he'd been through with Ferrari since joining them was a physical rollercoaster, so the break - literally and figurately, ultimately gave him the drive which led to five consecutive titles.

 

Without it, he could very well have retired in 2002 with five, possibly six titles had he claimed 1999, but whether he'd have had the same motivation to dominate in the following years without the time off is questionable, so the seven that he ended up with is a fair representation.

 

An eighth title for 2006 would have been the perfect conclusion, but seven titles is just fine!

 

For the record, I believe he'd have dominated this season had he continued beyond 2012 and retired with elusive title #8!

 

 

[George Costanza]

Ayrton probably would have won in 1994 once Williams sorted the car. The car was a pretty nervous car, yet he got pole by a good margin..... So, I'd argue for 1995, Ayrton would have won it as well, but I think Michael would have taken it to the end. But I think Michael would have still been a 4-5 time WDC... Ayrton would have probably retired after 1995 or 1996 or 1997. Schu's best years were in the 2000s, but what car would he be driving? Probably Ferrari or McLaren.

Edited by George Costanza, 03 April 2014 - 22:59.

[sennafan24]

 

As for the potential of more championships, it should be noted for people saying he could have won ten or eleven titles, I don't think this would have been realistic.

Fair point.

 

It depends on what timeline we work from, and how much his attitude differed.

 

If he would have retired in 2002 with 6 titles (granted he won the 1999 season and did not have a break), he could very well have got an itch to come back in 2004 and won another 3 titles with Ferrari, which would bring his total to 9. The problem with alternative realities is that they bring upon additional variables (like the one you stated)

 

I am tying myself into knots thinking about the "what ifs", so I think I am going to leave the "would", "could", "should" game now.

 

He won 7 titles, and looked mighty fine doing so.

 

Welcome to the forum by the way 

Edited by sennafan24, 03 April 2014 - 23:01.

[PIJAMAS]

 2007 and 2008... he wouldn't have been able to stop Felipe (2008) and especially Kimi (2007) on their days on speed but surely on consistency. .

 

He would not beat, but trash Massa or Kimi imo. Schumacher would need to be in a very bad weekend(setup-wise) to be beaten by those. Massa never qualified faster than Schumacher in 2006, fuel corrected.

 

 

But I don't think he would fight for WDC in Mercedes. He was too old and erratic to put a a real fight against the top drivers of today

 

And regarding not continuing his career in 2007: everybody knew how fast Montoya could be sometimes and everybody, including MSC, surely witnessed what Räikkönen did to Montoya in 2005 and 2006. And that guy was about to come to Ferrari (and as Massa said, that was a done deal from the end of 2005 onwards).

 

So, is it really that far fetched to think that Schumacher didn't want to compete against that guy because of 2005 and also especially after 2003 where Räikkönen clearly had the inferior car compared to the F2003-GA?

 

He (and everybody else) just couldn't see that there was the possibility that Räikkönen would have some problems by getting used to the F2007.

 

Montoya was just equal to Ralf, nothing special. Kimi could fight in 2003 because Michelin had way better tyres than Bridgestone, that year.

 

I don't know how MSC rated Kimi back them or if he "feared" him. All I know is that, imo, Kimi is way slower than a prime Schumacher. The guy was more often than not slower than Massa and is being trounced by Alonso already, as expected
 

Edited by PIJAMAS, 04 April 2014 - 01:56.

[superdelphinus]

I'm not a fan of MS but I respect him a LOT as a driver. Possible the best driver ever.
I was over the moon when he returned to F1 in 2010 seeing a legend racing again, even if it was painful to observe the rather slow Merc...

Given the speed in Merc 2014, is to only me that is a bit sad he didn't stayed one additional year?
It would have been UNREAL to see him jumping on the podium again! Despite not being a fan, I always enjoyed seeing him jumping...
And driving a 2014 Merc I'm quite sure MS would get the 8th title
What do you think?



PS
Get well soon!

Assuming that rosberg would still be his team mate, why would he suddenly beat him over a season despite not being able to previously?

[Jejking]

Assuming that rosberg would still be his team mate, why would he suddenly beat him over a season despite not being able to previously?

Here is where your assumption is wrong. He did beat him in 2012, accident and bad luck corrected he was ahead of him in the standings and qualifying. But I do think it would have become harder for Schumacher to keep up with Rosberg, I'm not buying the stories he transformed in 2013. The only reason (despite Nico trashing Lewis a couple of times because of a better thought through setup) Nico was so close in the standings was that Hamilton had more retirements from higher points paying positions.

[Spinnekop]

Fair point.

 

It depends on what timeline we work from, and how much his attitude differed.

 

If he would have retired in 2002 with 6 titles (granted he won the 1999 season and did not have a break), he could very well have got an itch to come back in 2004 and won another 3 titles with Ferrari, which would bring his total to 9. The problem with alternative realities is that they bring upon additional variables (like the one you stated)

 

I am tying myself into knots thinking about the "what ifs", so I think I am going to leave the "would", "could", "should" game now.

 

He won 7 titles, and looked mighty fine doing so.

 

Welcome to the forum by the way 

He sure did not luck into any of those 7 titles that is for sure

 

The what ifs and could haves used to eat me up big time.

 

1 less DNF and no "red mist" in Jerez he could've won '97,  if he had been able to anticipate DC would back off in an unexpected place to let him by at Spa '98  in a race which would've been one of the most domitating victories ever(I nearly cried that day) he'd have taken yhe 98 WDC. Both those years would've been legendary WDC's won without the best overall car on the grid(no arguments of FIA favouritism, tyre advantage, weak apponents- was fighting neck and meck with MH and JV). The 99 Ferrari was the best package and without breaking his leg 90% chance he would've had the WDC sewn up before the end of the season.

 

If his luck went slightly different he'd have had 10 legitimate WDC's end of '04.

 

There are one or 2 title winners around whose talent only really became aparent after his absence on the grid.

[PayasYouRace]

We can consider all the years that Michael went into the last round in contention, and how things could have been different.

 

1994 - Won - Lots of variables to take into account, but the most obvious way to reverse it is for his crash at Adelaide to have damaged his car more significantly, and he wouldn't have been able to return the the track and crash into Damon.

1997 - Lost - He was in contention as much down to Jacques' and Williams' mistakes as his own and Ferrari's brilliance. But let's say his engine held together at Silverstone, that would have been enough.

1998 - Lost - Many will point to the crash at Spa, and also the problems he had at Suzuka. On the other hand, I still can't fathom how he was allowed to keep the Silverstone win by taking a stop-go after the finish.

2003 - Won - I always consider this to be his hardest fought and most worthy title. But a Mercedes engine or Williams hydraulics or plumbing holding together would have been enough to change it.

2006 - Lost - That engine blow at Suzuka will hurt the most. Would have been a great title won.

 

Lets say 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2004 are given. 2000 was the closest, but he was still champion before the last round, so he had something to spare, and he won in Malaysia.

 

What about 1999? Well it seems to be considered a given that he'd win that year, but I'd rather give him a 50/50 chance. It was such an unpredictable year.

 

Either way, it means we have a minimum of 5 WDCs, which would be impressive by any stretch. If he'd won all the showdowns, and 1999 then 11 WDCs. So really, averaging out the results gives 7 or 8 titles depending on how generous you're going to be about 1999, so I'd say he got the right number in the end.