762 replies to this topic

[slmk]

Not without a fight.

I'm surprised at the sheer number of people who are assured of how every race will go this season yet we're only at race weekend number three in what is 19 race season. There is a very long way to go. It's the start of new regulations, where the biggest gains are there to be made (as an example, look at the gains McLaren made in '09 from a lowly start). It also demonstrates the shockingly short memories a great many of these people have. I suspect absolutely none of them predicted or expected the level of Red Bull dominance that arose after the summer break in 2013. Competitiveness changes all the time. I've no doubt Merc will be tough to catch, but the amount of self-serving white flag waving is a little much.

 

Is Mercedes more dominant than Red Bull?  In the three qualifying sessions so far it depends what races you wish to compare against.  Most yes, some not.  But dominance is more than just a time gap in one race.  Can Merc maintain it for the next 4/5 years?  Nobody can answer that.

 

And if all else fails, di Montezemolo is already busy doing his bit and pleading with Bernie and Todt for the good old days of FIA assistance for Ferrari.

 

RBR was equally dominant in qualifying in 2010 and 2011. Only 5 poles were won by teams other than RBR through 2010 and 2011; 2 by Lewis, 2 by Fernando and 1 by Hulkenburg (freak wet pole). And Fernando had a car equally as fast as RBR in race trim too (and even faster at Monza).

[skc]

Not without a fight.

I'm surprised at the sheer number of people who are assured of how every race will go this season yet we're only at race weekend number three in what is 19 race season. There is a very long way to go. It's the start of new regulations, where the biggest gains are there to be made (as an example, look at the gains McLaren made in '09 from a lowly start). It also demonstrates the shockingly short memories a great many of these people have. I suspect absolutely none of them predicted or expected the level of Red Bull dominance that arose after the summer break in 2013. Competitiveness changes all the time. I've no doubt Merc will be tough to catch, but the amount of self-serving white flag waving is a little much.

 

Is Mercedes more dominant than Red Bull?  In the three qualifying sessions so far it depends what races you wish to compare against.  Most yes, some not.  But dominance is more than just a time gap in one race.  Can Merc maintain it for the next 4/5 years?  Nobody can answer that.

 

And if all else fails, di Montezemolo is already busy doing his bit and pleading with Bernie and Todt for the good old days of FIA assistance for Ferrari.

 

Self serving white flagging you say?

 

How is that different from last season when after a certain point it was obvious who was going to win the WDC and WCC? The only difference this time is that we know the answer a little earlier on into the season.

 

You have to keep in mind that Mercedes are only likely to get stronger as the season goes on. Other teams are trying to get to where Mercedes are right now, but it's probable that by the time they get there, Mercedes will already have set a new target anyway.

 

Last season it took a little while for the dust to clear, this season...three races.

 

*Edit: I'm not complaining by the way. even as a Redbull fan I'm one of those people that finds any skirmish anywhere on the track pretty fascinating, I don't care if two cars are fighting for P13, I just like seeing a good fight.

Edited by skc, 05 April 2014 - 23:11.

[1Devil1]

Self serving white flagging you say?

 

How is that different from last season when after a certain point it was obvious who was going to win the WDC and WCC? The only difference this time is that we know the answer a little earlier on into the season.

 

You have to keep in mind that Mercedes are only likely to get stronger as the season goes on. Other teams are trying to get to where Mercedes are right now, but it's probable that by the time they get there, Mercedes will already have set a new target anyway.

 

Last season it took a little while for the dust to clear, this season...three races.

 

The gaps are too large, for a swing in favor for one time, look at the time sheets. You can dominate by 0.5 seconds like RedBull did it, and most of the time Sebastian and Webber getting trouble/stuck around 4th, 5th or having a car two seconds faster. There is a big, big difference, of course nobody knows, how the season pans out but a huge gap will not be taken away from race three to race five, by Adrian Newey drawing some new concepts in his garage. I hoped RedBull could bounce back, but my optimism vanished a litte bit.

[Alfisti]

Kimi's car looked hooked up from on board , easily the best ive seen it all weekend . Did a great job in the end. Well done brother 

 

Seriously, how much motor sport have you seen? There was immense understeer, hooked up it was not.

[ExFlagMan]

You do know that mid season rule changes can only happen if there's 100 percent unanimity by the teams!?
And turkeys would never vote for Christmas as we know.

Only because Bernie has never tried persuading them - after all he managed to persuade the 'turkeys' that putting F1 in the UK behind a partial paywall would increase the viewing figures.

[darkkis]

Williams is only a few tenths off Mercedes; one of them could definitely split the Mercedes.

Few tenths? I don't know what broadcast you've been watching, but it's definitely more than few tenths.

[AlexS]

 

Seriously, how much motor sport have you seen? There was immense understeer, hooked up it was not.

Yep. While less worse than usual, Kimi was very precise about what he do. You could feel that just a bit less precision and the car will jink it.

Edited by AlexS, 06 April 2014 - 09:24.

[ultimatebourne]

The gaps are too large, for a swing in favor for one time, look at the time sheets. You can dominate by 0.5 seconds like RedBull did it, and most of the time Sebastian and Webber getting trouble/stuck around 4th, 5th or having a car two seconds faster. There is a big, big difference, of course nobody knows, how the season pans out but a huge gap will not be taken away from race three to race five, by Adrian Newey drawing some new concepts in his garage. I hoped RedBull could bounce back, but my optimism vanished a litte bit.

 

The gaps are large but you can't compare gaps from this season to previous and estimate that making up lap time this season is going to be as difficult as previous seasons. I'm sure you've already heard all the team principals stating that the technology is so immature that there are big gains to be made. A big gain in lap time can come just from complete functionality of the ERS and therefore full power available to the PU. If the ERS functionality is dependent on software and mapping then this could potentially come sooner than later.

 

Let's not forget that Red Bull were nowhere in testing, absolutely nowhere. Even Caterham was doing better than them. Hardly any laps during winter testing and sawing sounds coming from the garage, their cars emerging with crude ducts sticking out of the side pods as an ad hoc emergency cooling. It was pitiful. Yet bang, in Australia they come 2nd and again in Malaysia they come 2nd. Of course rain in quail helped but even in the dry their pace was strong in both those races compared to the other cars except for Merc. I don't expect them to be strong in Bahrain due to only a week of development time since Malaysia and their PU is down on power on what is a power demanding track.

 

But if Red Bull can go from sprouting bodywork surgery and handful of laps during winter testing to second best car at season start, I wouldn't discount large gains to close down the large gaps. Of course Merc isn't standing still either, but if their technology is further up the maturity curve then the law of diminishing returns states that their gains won't be as much.

[Markn93]

The gaps are large but you can't compare gaps from this season to previous and estimate that making up lap time this season is going to be as difficult as previous seasons. I'm sure you've already heard all the team principals stating that the technology is so immature that there are big gains to be made. A big gain in lap time can come just from complete functionality of the ERS and therefore full power available to the PU. If the ERS functionality is dependent on software and mapping then this could potentially come sooner than later.

 

Let's not forget that Red Bull were nowhere in testing, absolutely nowhere. Even Caterham was doing better than them. Hardly any laps during winter testing and sawing sounds coming from the garage, their cars emerging with crude ducts sticking out of the side pods as an ad hoc emergency cooling. It was pitiful. Yet bang, in Australia they come 2nd and again in Malaysia they come 2nd. Of course rain in quail helped but even in the dry their pace was strong in both those races compared to the other cars except for Merc. I don't expect them to be strong in Bahrain due to only a week of development time since Malaysia and their PU is down on power on what is a power demanding track.

 

But if Red Bull can go from sprouting bodywork surgery and handful of laps during winter testing to second best car at season start, I wouldn't discount large gains to close down the large gaps. Of course Merc isn't standing still either, but if their technology is further up the maturity curve then the law of diminishing returns states that their gains won't be as much.

Did they? I must have missed that.

 

 

Also some of the performance gains they will need to make are impossible to recover in the same area, as Merc have a better PU and the engines are homologated, they will have to doubly improve their aero, which will be a tough ask.  

[slmk]

Few tenths? I don't know what broadcast you've been watching, but it's definitely more than few tenths.

 

On race pace, yes, they were only few tenths off; the only team to do low 1:40s and high 1:39s with fuel load. Look at Massa's long run in FP2.

[Mila]

It's not inconceivable that NR sandbagged through the free practices in order to give his teammate a false sense of confidence entering qualifying. And, aside from the advantage of starting from pole, we might wonder what sort of team orders for the race had been in place at Mercedes prior to the commencement of qualifying yesterday.

[Timstr11]

Only because Bernie has never tried persuading them - after all he managed to persuade the 'turkeys' that putting F1 in the UK behind a partial paywall would increase the viewing figures.

That's FOM, not the FIA.

[ultimatebourne]

Did they? I must have missed that.

 

 

Also some of the performance gains they will need to make are impossible to recover in the same area, as Merc have a better PU and the engines are homologated, they will have to doubly improve their aero, which will be a tough ask.  

 

Sorry, I meant 2nd behind the Mercs - am aware that Seb finished 3rd in Malaysia. I should've worded it better!