56 replies to this topic

[rmpugh]

LDM has said that the current formula is "Taxi Cab Racing". Do you agree?

 

IMHO, despite being a massive Ferrari fan, I think this is sour grapes. Ferrari need to do a better job. Hats off to Mercedes for doing such a good job and Ferrari need to just work harder to catch up. 

 

I have to say that there is not really anything that Wolff says here that I disagree with. http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113308

 

Forza Ferrari but stop whining and start performing!!!

 

[HoldenRT]

It's been going in that direction for years.

[Knot]

It's not taxi racing, because that would be more exciting.

[Morbus]

Yeah, sour grapes, as usual.

 

There have been plenty of taxi cab racing in the past, and this year, it's still too yearly to tell how it's going to be, but I enjoyed Australia, so I'm hopeful.

 

Of course, there's people who found the 2009 season to be boring. I tend not to give the slightest bit of credit to those people.

[Atreiu]

Shouldn't that make it less challenging? Why are they still not winning?

[S3baman]

Taxi cabing, truck driving, all these names are pointless. I for one don't particularly enjoy this delta driving we currently have in F1. I'm happy for Nico and Lewis that they have a fast car and that they at least seem to be the ones that push the most, but even so the driver challenges of 2014 are pressing a billion buttons on the steering wheel instead of doing 19 quali laps in a row to pull out a gap sufficient enough to make a 3 stopper work. I can see why LDM is upset. This type of F1 is not a good marketing device for Ferrari cars, at that's what at stake more so than championship wins imo.

[Myrvold]

but even so the driver challenges of 2014 are pressing a billion buttons on the steering wheel instead of doing 19 quali laps in a row to pull out a gap sufficient enough to make a 3 stopper work. I can see why LDM is upset. This type of F1 is not a good marketing device for Ferrari cars, at that's what at stake more so than championship wins imo.

But it was no problem in the 80's, with fuel limits, no refueling etc. When you couldn't push quali laps all the time in the race either. Yes, times change, and this is another change, the world changes as well, it's just how it is.

[S3baman]

But it was no problem in the 80's, with fuel limits, no refueling etc. When you couldn't push quali laps all the time in the race either. Yes, times change, and this is another change, the world changes as well, it's just how it is.

 

I only started watching F1 after Imola 94, at a very young age on top of that. I've seen famous clips from the turbo era, but never an entire race so I can't really comment on that. However, those cars, at least to me, seemed bloody dangerous and more than a handful for even the most experienced drivers. So while there might have been periods during a race where drivers weren't on it at 100%, it was exciting to watch because of all the other factors. Sadly, I can't say the same thing about 2014.

[rage2]

Taxi cabing, truck driving, all these names are pointless. I for one don't particularly enjoy this delta driving we currently have in F1. I'm happy for Nico and Lewis that they have a fast car and that they at least seem to be the ones that push the most, but even so the driver challenges of 2014 are pressing a billion buttons on the steering wheel instead of doing 19 quali laps in a row to pull out a gap sufficient enough to make a 3 stopper work. I can see why LDM is upset. This type of F1 is not a good marketing device for Ferrari cars, at that's what at stake more so than championship wins imo.

This is year 1 of the efficiency formula. If you don't want your drivers delta racing, then develop better efficiency in your PU so they can go flat out whist using less than 100kg of fuel. When several teams are pushing each other, then there would be no delta driving.

[S3baman]

This is year 1 of the efficiency formula. If you don't want your drivers delta racing, then develop better efficiency in your PU so they can go flat out whist using less than 100kg of fuel. When several teams are pushing each other, then there would be no delta driving.

 

There was delta driving in year 4 of no refueling era as well. It's not just one factor at play unfortunately, the tires are partially at fault as well although this year with the harder compounds things are a bit better.

[zottzell]

This is year 1 of the efficiency formula. If you don't want your drivers delta racing, then develop better efficiency in your PU so they can go flat out whist using less than 100kg of fuel. When several teams are pushing each other, then there would be no delta driving.

That's the thing, the competition cant because of the homologation rules and the testing ban and that's really whats been fundamentally wrong with F1 for years.

So unless we want to see a repeat of earlier seasons where drivers/teams ran away and won the title early then something have to change, but this being a mostly British forum I can understand why the cries aren't that that load calling out for these changes seeing Hamilton is sitting in the dominant car.

[Andrew Hope]

An "F1 is boring" thread?

 

[whitewaterMkII]

Meh, more like Prius racing to me...

Funny how F1 thinks it's the sh.t and comes up w/ stoopid rules that turns their car into eunuchs.

[rage2]

That's the thing, the competition cant because of the homologation rules and the testing ban and that's really whats been fundamentally wrong with F1 for years.
So unless we want to see a repeat of earlier seasons where drivers/teams ran away and won the title early then something have to change, but this being a mostly British forum I can understand why the cries aren't that that load calling out for these changes seeing Hamilton is sitting in the dominant car.

The engines will be re-homogolated in 2015. It's not locked down forever. Costs has to be locked down. Even in the unlimited budget, testing and technical era, there were teams dominating for years, so that isn't a guarantee for close competition either.

This is coming from a McLaren fan from Canada who's really tired of them underperforming for a while now. Mercedes did a better job than everyone else, and they're reaping the benefits. You want close competition year after year? You'll need a spec series.

[InfectedPumpkin]

Today's F1 is a joke. Cars are joke and drivers are joke. Drivers are scary of rain and wind. And many paydrivers etc.

Compare this to Grand Prix from lets say 50 years ago. That drivers had balls of steel. Real drivers. Real cars. No fear.

 

F1 will be like Formula E soon. Sadly.

Edited by InfectedPumpkin, 06 April 2014 - 06:31.

[Jackmancer]

Weird. When this happened, LDM didn't say F1 turned into taxi cab racing:

 

[jonpollak]

Ah hell..

I had a GREAT taxi racing story ready and y'all ain't gonna roll with it?

 

Jp

[zottzell]

The engines will be re-homogolated in 2015. It's not locked down forever. Costs has to be locked down. Even in the unlimited budget, testing and technical era, there were teams dominating for years, so that isn't a guarantee for close competition either.

This is coming from a McLaren fan from Canada who's really tired of them underperforming for a while now. Mercedes did a better job than everyone else, and they're reaping the benefits. You want close competition year after year? You'll need a spec series.

Back then the competition at least had a chance to develop all parts of the car, sure it did cost money but the option was there for those that had the resources.

 

And money is being spent anyways, just instead of focusing on whats fundamentally wrong with the cars the teams have to spend it on trying make up for the things they cant change due to the regulations.

Take Sauber for instance rumors are stating that they now are trying to make a lightweight chassis to make up for the overweight Ferrari engine, wouldn't it have been better if they instead of trying to shave of those pounds on the chassis instead could have removed them from the engine?

 

I don't want a spec series but I also don't want yet another year of races where the outcome is mainly decided before hand because of homologation rules as we already seen in the Red Bull dominance due to things like engine blowing. It was boring then and its equally boring now even though there's a British driver being favored.

Edited by zottzell, 06 April 2014 - 07:00.

[KingTiger]

If LDM really didn't like taxi racing, he should've said something in 2011 and 2012 when the tires would go out in 5-10 laps. 

 

Back then the competition at least had a chance to develop all parts of the car, sure it did cost money but the option was there for those that had the resources.

 

And money is being spent anyways, just instead of focusing on whats fundamentally wrong with the cars the teams have to spend it on trying make up for the things they cant change due to the regulations.

Take Sauber for instance rumors are stating that they now are trying to make a lightweight chassis to make up for the overweight Ferrari engine, wouldn't it have been better if they instead of trying to shave of those pounds on the chassis instead could have removed them from the engine?

 

I don't want a spec series but I also don't want yet another year of races where the outcome is mainly decided before hand because of homologation rules as we already seen in the Red Bull dominance due to things like engine blowing. It was boring then and its equally boring now even though there's a British driver being favored.

 

No, it's not the same amount of money being spent. BMW used to go through 20-30 engines per season for Williams alone in the mid 00s. They could probably run 2 teams now with the money they used to spend only on that.  

 

Without tobacco money costs need to be controlled very carefully. 

Edited by KingTiger, 06 April 2014 - 07:22.

[ExFlagMan]

I only started watching F1 after Imola 94, at a very young age on top of that. I've seen famous clips from the turbo era, but never an entire race so I can't really comment on that. However, those cars, at least to me, seemed bloody dangerous and more than a handful for even the most experienced drivers. [u]So while there might have been periods during a race where drivers weren't on it at 100%[\u], it was exciting to watch because of all the other factors. Sadly, I can't say the same thing about 2014.

Much of the field was running at 0% in those days as the reliability was awful. If you watch footage of the races from that period the most prominent feature from about half distance is the no of cars parked at the side of the track.

[Ze Bum]

But it was no problem in the 80's, with fuel limits, no refueling etc.

 

Yes it was. The drivers were complaining already with the 220 litre limit that it was just fuel saving at not real racing. Then it was reduced to 195 litres...

 

Actually races were usually REALLY boring in the 80s. The gaps between cars were usually tens of seconds, if not laps. The only exciting thing was that any car could blow up any second.

[Briz]

sour grapes... wanted a engine formula, got it and still failing. Fuel efficiency doesn't change the racing. Give them 200 litres per race and it will be absolutely the same story - they will still be able to use all of it and they will drive to deltas at at some point. The thing that really hurts speed/power perception for me though is the unspectacular sound.

[V8 Fireworks]

This is a Taxi

http://australiantax...s/middle_01.jpg

 

This is taxi cab racing

 

This is faster, pretendy taxi cab racing

 

  LdM   

[zottzell]

If LDM really didn't like taxi racing, he should've said something in 2011 and 2012 when the tires would go out in 5-10 laps. 

 

 

No, it's not the same amount of money being spent. BMW used to go through 20-30 engines per season for Williams alone in the mid 00s. They could probably run 2 teams now with the money they used to spend only on that.  

 

Without tobacco money costs need to be controlled very carefully. 

Where did I say that today's budgets are the same as it used to be?

Ofc it isn't and that's how it should be but with a more open regulation the fixed money being spent could be spent where it actually does the most difference.

And whats the logic of it being allowed to redesign say the chassis for millions during the season but you cant shave of a even gram on the engine.

Edited by zottzell, 06 April 2014 - 08:24.

[Brazzers]

Even if the regulations changed again Ferrari would be in the same boat. 

 

Unable to provide a WDC/WCC car.

[drunkenmaster]

No, not taxi cab racing, by the sound new F1 is more like lawnmower racing...

 

[lbennie]

Eh, they all have agendas in this sport.

It is no suprise Adrian Newey & LdM are a bit upset at the moment, as they are currently getting their behinds handed to them.

But no different to Lewis saying last year he would hate to be in a car so dominant that there would be no one to fight with on track other than his team mate. He seems to be enjoying himself enough at the moment

 

They are all self serving individuals, it is a required trait in this business.

 

I do agree with him though, I don't mind them making F1 greener with the hybrid PU's etc, but requiring them to conserve on many fronts from lap 1 in a race is a bit ridiculous.

[AvranaKern]

Ferrari had been saying for years that Formula 1 should give the engine formula more importance as it had became too much of an aero series. And they got what they wanted: here is the 2014 Formula 1 season with power units deciding the pecking order and where is Ferrari? Bickering about the rules. He is getting tiresome, LdM. Ferrari should have done a better job on the engine formula as it is what they have been wanting ever since!

[Rocket73]

This is so typical of Ferrari. It's like Enzo and the garagistas...i love the new formula especially seeing as we have cars like the P1 and the new porsche which use these technologies to great effect. This IS the pinnacle of engineering motorcars.

 

And we have only had two races ffs.

[itsademo]

Eh, they all have agendas in this sport.

It is no suprise Adrian Newey & LdM are a bit upset at the moment, as they are currently getting their behinds handed to them.

But no different to Lewis saying last year he would hate to be in a car so dominant that there would be no one to fight with on track other than his team mate. He seems to be enjoying himself enough at the moment

 

They are all self serving individuals, it is a required trait in this business.

 

I do agree with him though, I don't mind them making F1 greener with the hybrid PU's etc, but requiring them to conserve on many fronts from lap 1 in a race is a bit ridiculous.

 

we are only 2 races into the new era and you know what I have not seen any team run out of fuel or tyres this year unlike last year when tyres lasted few laps. We have already seen cars on the grid with less than the 100KG allowance so its clear its not the regulations but the teams tacticians limiting fuel.

However if you look back through F1 there has always been conserving going on be it because of tyres, fuel, engines and gear boxes or just team tactics to mention just a few.

I am not aware of any time when championships were won by just going flat out from lap one in every race that has always tended to cause you to fail to finish far below the position an optimal conserving strategy would provide, if you even finished at all.

Its does amaze me how many people here exhibit the "oh kids were much better behaved in our day," mentality when it comes to F1.

Just look back at all the old races and you will find the radio messages/pit board signs telling drivers they need to make these tyres last till x or the fuel needs to last till y

[eronrules]

top gear did a proper taxi cab racing a while ago ... 

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

My first thought when reading taxi cab racing was complete nutters driving flat out everywhere with little regard for the state of their machinery or the rules, like typical taxi drivers. So that would be like the early 00's racing then.

[spacekid]

Is taxi cab racing an accepted racing term? I have no idea what Luca is talking about. I've been in a taxi cab in Italy, it's f***ing terrifying.

I like the new engine formula, I like that there is more torque. I'm fine with a fuel limit, though less keen on a fuel flow limit ('oh nos, they might go quickly in qualifying!' Well, yeah...).

I don't like the amount of data that is analysed during races by banks of people on laptops and the micromanagement of the races from the pitwall. That right there is the problem as I see it. Ban car to pit telemetry, it's that simple.

[DanardiF1]

An "F1 is boring" thread?

 

 

Aka another 'LDM talking bollocks' thread.

[F1matt]

If Mercedes powered cars lock out the first four places this evening (which is very likely) Luca will be fuming.

Let's just hope the taxi he gets to the airport isn't a Mercedes........

[ANF]

This is year 1 of the efficiency formula. If you don't want your drivers delta racing, then develop better efficiency in your PU so they can go flat out whist using less than 100kg of fuel. When several teams are pushing each other, then there would be no delta driving.

Exactly. If Montezemolo doesn't like "delta driving", then Ferrari could stop using data gathering, sensors, and telemetry. They don't even have to do any long runs on Fridays to evaluate the tyres. If that would make the cars faster over a race distance, then go ahead.

[totgate]

top gear did a proper taxi cab racing a while ago ... 

 

 

 

And that was way better than current F1 Racing... ;-)

[FenderJaguar]

Bernie is on it! more fuel!!!!!!!

[eronrules]

And that was way better than current F1 Racing... ;-)

 

well, atleast a bloody 'MERCEDES' didn't win that race   , so i guess it's better than the current F1

[kyriakos75]

Renault (and Redbull) are having issues with the fuel-flow  limitation.

Coincidentally, Vettel claims that the new F1 engine sound is sh*t.

One way to increase the noise would be to lift the fuel-flow limitation, according to Renault's head of track operations.

Miraculously, Bernie agrees:

"I think they can do something about the noise," he said. "If they need another 10kg of fuel or something like that, then I think everyone will agree."

[eronrules]

but is it as simple as that??? increasing the fuel mass by 10 kg will mean designing a whole new fuel tank, messing with the COG, changing the chasis to encorporate bigger fuel tank, weight distribution  etc etc etc ...

 

 

i'd rather have a increased ballast for drivers i.e driver + ballast = 90 kg or something. 

[Disgrace]

No surprise that all of this bickering is taking place immediately after the dissolution of FOTA. With Mad Max history, what central theme could once again unite the teams?

[Music Lover]

Ferrari had been saying for years that Formula 1 should give the engine formula more importance as it had became too much of an aero series. And they got what they wanted: here is the 2014 Formula 1 season with power units deciding the pecking order and where is Ferrari? Bickering about the rules. He is getting tiresome, LdM. Ferrari should have done a better job on the engine formula as it is what they have been wanting ever since!

Agree!

[senna da silva]

Ferrari had been saying for years that Formula 1 should give the engine formula more importance as it had became too much of an aero series. And they got what they wanted: here is the 2014 Formula 1 season with power units deciding the pecking order and where is Ferrari? Bickering about the rules. He is getting tiresome, LdM. Ferrari should have done a better job on the engine formula as it is what they have been wanting ever since!

 

This!

[Seanspeed]

Ferrari had been saying for years that Formula 1 should give the engine formula more importance as it had became too much of an aero series. And they got what they wanted: here is the 2014 Formula 1 season with power units deciding the pecking order and where is Ferrari? Bickering about the rules. He is getting tiresome, LdM. Ferrari should have done a better job on the engine formula as it is what they have been wanting ever since!

Ferrari want more importance placed on engine *development* rather than development being so aerodynamics-focused.

This is not what we have now.

[Nonesuch]

Luca di Montezemolo's history of not following up on his threats and complaining when his team isn't bringing in the success he wants/expects/thinks it deserves is harming his message.

 

Every time he says something the discussion becomes about him, rather than what he might be genuinely trying to say. It doesn't help that he apparently has a need to phrase his complaints in hyperbolic terms.

 

Forza Ferrari but stop whining and start performing!!!

 

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 06 April 2014 - 14:16.

[krapmeister]

This is a Taxi
http://australiantax...s/middle_01.jpg
 
This is taxi cab racing

 
This is faster, pretendy taxi cab racing

 
  LdM   

Well... a Mercedes of all things won a race yesterday in V8Supertaxis so maybe Luca is right?

[Timstr11]

EPIC race. Taxi driving? My *ss. Take that Montezemolo.

[alexbiker]

The look of disgust on LdM's face as he turned and stormed off - when another Force India gently wandered past his beloved Ferraris. . . . .  That was almost as good as the whole race.

 

LdM and Bernie the Crook are looking pretty stupid after that.

[demet06]

Ferrari need to design a racing car not a taxi cab.

Wonder what they're going to discuss at their high powered meeting that no other team principals have been invited to. I hope Jean Todt tells them both to stop whinging.